Unfortunately this is just a fact of this games life you will have to deal with. That or give up the freedom everyone claims to love about this game. ( Yet constantly complains about indirectly, me included. ) There is a balance to be found somewhere between restrictions and freedom I am sure, but I don't think ZOS is capable of finding it as their track record with it is not great.
Actually it is easer to fix than it is, they just need to attach the class with the role. Took thos classes which can be the specific role, like NB - DD.
And those classes which doesnt have any deffined role, so crete the 4th role: like damage support class.
There should be defined line between tank/healer/dd/¿why not? Also create some buffer class. This will create real need for party playing.
Actually it is easer to fix than it is, they just need to attach the class with the role. Took thos classes which can be the specific role, like NB - DD.
And those classes which doesnt have any deffined role, so crete the 4th role: like damage support class.
Back when the games combat system was not constantly nerfing tanks, I had a nb tank. It was a fun and interesting way to play.
Nowadays I don’t know if they are viable anymore.
Take wow for example, only specific classes can queue as a tank, and then only the specifically defines tank specialization can do it, and that specialization is designed in a way that tanking can be it's only real job. If you want to dps you pick a different specialization. Its a great system that has worked for year for the purpose it serves and the idea of the Holy Trinity.
WoW push groups also focus on Tank and healers pushing their DPS to clear M+ , especially on higher keys 15-20's.
Tanks and healers become negligible depending on each persons individual skill cap and self awareness.
The problem will never resolve itself unless there's a quicker queue time for DD's , but there'll always be an appetite for some of the community to have 3DD 4DD setups, as when done correctly can lead to content being cleared more efficiently.
I do however agree though, when DD's queue up as a Tank/Healer but fail to add an average overall DPS to the group, that's a pet peeve of mine.
insignismemoria wrote: »They could just add a "float" role, or even a float queue where there are no assigned roles and it's come as you are. Policing how other people game is not what TES is about, and for all the flawed attempts at re-balancing that don't seem to favor this mindset, ZOS publicly states they want to keep the philosophy of "play your way". Locking any skill or class or race into a role is contradictory to this.
With a "float" role, you could put yourself in as a floater, or if you want to be a DPS but don't mind having anyone fill any role, you could toggle an option that says "accept float for any role/the following roles".
This seems like a blindingly obvious solution that wouldn't actually be that difficult to implement. The people who don't care and just want a short queue will have their way of doing things, without actually taking anything away from the set-role folks. In fact, it might mean that there will be more healers and tanks for the DPS who want dedicated/specialized builds filling those roles.
Personally, though, I think if you're not willing to specialize and fill the role, it's silly to complain when no one else wants to either.
Every other MMO that has a queue system for dungeons/raids has a way to deal with this. It's to the point now where almost half of the lfg/pugs I do has a fake tank or healer in it, and a lot of the times it's just straight up 4 dps (no taunts and zero heals). I can accept they are bad tanks and healers, no problem. What I can't or won't accept is a dps queuing as a tank or healer just because they somehow think that their time is more valuable and don't want to wait in the queue that dps deal with right now. Vote to kick is not the answer because a fast kick and replacement almost never happens and people would rather just die a whole bunch instead of having to kick/replace/wait for the role to be filled properly. There is no risk or downside to the person queuing into the wrong role other than a slight chance of getting kicked, but even then they can just log onto another character, re-queue (in the wrong role) and end up right back in the group they were just kicked from further wasting the everyone's time... (Why is the kicked timer not account wide, [snip]?)
Now before a Captain Obvious stats the obvious...
(Yes, I know I can form my own groups and do.)
(Yes, I do tank and heal and not just dps in pugs.)
(Yes, I know I can leave the group at any time.)
(Yes, I know you can and I have successfully ran 3 and even 4 dps in vet dungeons.)
These are all band aid solutions to a broken system that only rewards the people who are breaking it.
So what can be done to fix the problem? I don't know, I'm not a developer and don't know what is and isn't technically possible with the HeroEngine. If possible, the queue system for LFG needs to have a criteria to look for before allowing someone to queue into a certain role.
Does the person have a taunt on their bar? Check
Does the person have sufficient health to tank the content that was queued for? Check
Does the person have the appropriate armor/armor buffs/shields/and cp talents? Check
If all checks pass, lock the gear/skills/talents in place required for the content and add them to the queue.
A system like this would allow extra rewards for filling and completing certain roles that are badly needed need in the queue like tank, thus speeding up everyone queue.
I know there are a lot of different play-styles and builds out there but there needs to be a bare minimum criteria in place to allow someone to queue for certain roles, otherwise little Timmy Turbo is just going to keep abusing the queue and wasting everyone's time. The only other options are to allow reporting and banning of people abusing the queue (first report a warning, second report 24 hour ban), but this would likely be abused it's self. The other option? Just leave it as it is and dumb down all lfg/pug content to allow for a random 4 dps to clear. What I can say for sure is that the LFG experience has progressively gotten worse over the past couple of years and it needs fixed right now.
Oh I agree Op, except you have to check for "fake" dps too, you know the ones that do barely any damage, stand in every enemy aoe, runs halfway through the dungeon leaving the tank and healer behind, then dies and complains blaming the tank and healer, even sometimes going to the forums to keep complaining about "fake" tanks and healers.
Bloodraven187 wrote: »Unfortunately this is just a fact of this games life you will have to deal with. That or give up the freedom everyone claims to love about this game. ( Yet constantly complains about indirectly, me included. ) There is a balance to be found somewhere between restrictions and freedom I am sure, but I don't think ZOS is capable of finding it as their track record with it is not great.
It's not ZOS that can't find the balance per se, it's that that freedom lets you create whole different concepts for doing the same job. Things people never would have dreamed up suddenly pop up and catches attention, sometimes becoming the meta and sometimes not. A werewolf tank viable for vet dlc dungeons, a dk stam/mag hybrid dps that works for the same, a night blade that can stay in stealth infinitely and outrun most mounted players while doing it, a viable sorc stampire that never dies...
You can balance the majority of things around X standards, but someone (usually in the top 1% or just the glass ceiling types) will come up with a new way to min/max around a specific conceptual idea and make it work. Unless you can think up every single possible combinations of race/class/skills/gear/cp setup NO ONE can find the balance you speak of.
That would be like a DM for tabletop rpg's being able to anticipate everything every player can think of to do for all scenarios and write them all out. Sooooo....who wants a lesson in quantum physics and temporal mechanics?
A big example of a limitation that would go a long way is separating the way abilities and sets perform based on content. I.E. PVP or PVE, they refuse, thats on them, and the more issues that arise from it is their failure to find that "balance".
Bloodraven187 wrote: »...it's that they don't have the available funds and resources for it.
Bloodraven187 wrote: »1) Your thrown in as a floater would then have to be able to fill every role because you could be thrown into any of them and might well find yourself in a group that needs all of them.
Bloodraven187 wrote: »2) Everyone would go floater, making your queues for people who are dedicating to specific roles even longer.
Bloodraven187 wrote: »3) What development experience do you have to back up the claim that it would be easy to implement? You realize you are talking about completely rebuilding and redesigning group finder right?
Bloodraven187 wrote: »Money men. they have to ok everything, from office supplies to paying people. If they only give X budget to work with for X project, that is all they have to work with, even if the larger company has all the money in the world to throw at it.
I'd rather have a fake tank, then sit in the queue for 30 minutes.
So whatever solution you come up with, make it optional, so people who don't really care about it don't get hurt by the solution.
Bloodraven187 wrote: »A big example of a limitation that would go a long way is separating the way abilities and sets perform based on content. I.E. PVP or PVE, they refuse, thats on them, and the more issues that arise from it is their failure to find that "balance".
That has actually been addressed with the stream team who asked about that. The official answer was that to separate into 2 systems like that they would need to do 2 versions of every thing, essentially doubling the items and abilities across the board. Which would take a whole new development team to do. Then they would need to develop a way for the 2 to intersect fluidly and seamlessly based on where the player went at any given time. That would be a massive undertaking on the backend in terms of time, hardware to support it and manpower, never mind money. That is why we don't have separate systems for PVE vs PVP. they'd double or triple the amount of development time, making releases, fixes, patched and updates come out a LOT slower.
insignismemoria wrote: »Bloodraven187 wrote: »1) Your thrown in as a floater would then have to be able to fill every role because you could be thrown into any of them and might well find yourself in a group that needs all of them.
For the type of content most people "fake" roles for, this wouldn't be a problem. People who want to float or who would allow a floating role in their group would be deciding they don't care about this risk by allowing them. If this worries or bothers you, then you just wouldn't queue to allow floaters. Also, you could have an option to only float within certain roles. This already exists in an unofficial capacity in tanks who off-heal, etc.Bloodraven187 wrote: »2) Everyone would go floater, making your queues for people who are dedicating to specific roles even longer.
I definitely disagree with this. The bottleneck 90% of the time is tanks. I've never waited longer than 2 minutes when I tank, but always at least 20 minutes when I heal or DPS. As someone who likes and enjoys tanking, as is the case with most tanks, I would never go into a floating queue as a tank. However, I feel many DPS would, because many are capable with self-heals, etc. This would decrease the amount of DPS in the dedicated queue and shorten the number of DPS who need tanks and healers.
This is also remedied if you could just select a single role that you'd be okay to fill with a floater. If you have a tank, and have a couple of DPS confident in their self-heals, you could toggle the healer role to float.Bloodraven187 wrote: »3) What development experience do you have to back up the claim that it would be easy to implement? You realize you are talking about completely rebuilding and redesigning group finder right?
Admittedly, I don't know about implementing things on such a scale, but even basic Boolean operators make it seem like it wouldn't be too bad, especially considering that they've already told us they're redesigning the group finder from the bottom up. With basic logic operators, it is currently DPS ∧ DPS ∧ Healer ∧ Tank, but a toggle would make it DPS ∧ DPS ∧ (DPS v DPS v Healer v Tank iff float=true) ∧ Tank. Tacking on a new variable role could certainly be a big logistic challenge, but they keep saying they already plan to redesign it so I am operating under that assumption.
Bloodraven187 wrote: »There should be defined line between tank/healer/dd/¿why not? Also create some buffer class. This will create real need for party playing.
The whole concept of ESO is that every class can be every role. Some might be more leaning towards some roles than others, but you can make viable nightblade tanks and healers, templars that are better dps than healers, DK's that can heal with the best of them. Defining a class to a role would completely kill that concept and the game along with it. If you think people throw tantrums and quit now because they make one change that forces them to change their build to better maximize what they are doing imagine what would happen if suddenly they couldn't even do that role anymore because someone decided arbitrarily that templars could only ever heal, dk's could only ever tank or necros could only ever dps. You would see a mass exodus because a fundamental part of this game and the series it was born from would be destroyed.
The class is not meant to be a role, it is just the magic toybox you get to play with that goes beyond what you can do with just weapons and armor.
One of our mantras for ESO is "play the way you want," and in this case, it means any class can fulfill any role (tank, dps, support/healer).
To better achieve this ideal while also maintaining the unique fantasy flavor of each class, all class kits need to include the basic tools required to fulfill each role.
To be clear, our goal is for every class to be viable, not necessarily optimal, in any role without heavily relying on non-class skill lines.
Actually it is easer to fix than it is, they just need to attach the class with the role. Took thos classes which can be the specific role, like NB - DD.
And those classes which doesnt have any deffined role, so crete the 4th role: like damage support class.
Back when the games combat system was not constantly nerfing tanks, I had a nb tank. It was a fun and interesting way to play.
Nowadays I don’t know if they are viable anymore.
another idea: make 4 dynamic rewards (XP+mail) on random normal.
- one for highest amout of damage taken during that run
- one for highest amout of healing during that run
- two for each of the 2 highest amouts of damage done during this round
NOT limited to one reward each person. So if a tank get most "damage taken" AND does more damage than a dd, he gets 2 rewards while one dd gets nothing (i mean, he did less than a real tank).
Or if a dd has most "damage taken" because of fake tank, AND manages to make more dps than the fake tank, he gets 2 rewrads and the fake tank none.
If everyone fills their role to a slightest minimum, everyone gets a reward (if a faketank holds aggro of boss, go for it, i guess everyone is happy then anyway).
And it makes it a bit interesting, if you have a faketank which doesnt care about aggro, if you manage to make more dps than him and receive by chance more damage than him, you get 2 rewards and he none).
A more boring solution could also be, rewards are unique but bound to the chosen role:
So..
- a tank only get his reward if he has the most "damage taken" in that run
- a heal only gets his reward if he has done most "healing done to others" during run
- a dd just gets his reward if he has one of the two highest amounts of "damage done"
Except that ZOS has acknowledged and said that not all classes excel at all roles - some classes are better at certain roles than others. That is how they are designed.
Certain Classes are more optimal at certain roles than other classes are - Templars are better healers than Dragonknights but Dragonknights are better tanks than Templars.One of our mantras for ESO is "play the way you want," and in this case, it means any class can fulfill any role (tank, dps, support/healer).
To better achieve this ideal while also maintaining the unique fantasy flavor of each class, all class kits need to include the basic tools required to fulfill each role.
To be clear, our goal is for every class to be viable, not necessarily optimal, in any role without heavily relying on non-class skill lines.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025
Except that ZOS has acknowledged and said that not all classes excel at all roles - some classes are better at certain roles than others. That is how they are designed.
Certain Classes are more optimal at certain roles than other classes are - Templars are better healers than Dragonknights but Dragonknights are better tanks than Templars.One of our mantras for ESO is "play the way you want," and in this case, it means any class can fulfill any role (tank, dps, support/healer).
To better achieve this ideal while also maintaining the unique fantasy flavor of each class, all class kits need to include the basic tools required to fulfill each role.
To be clear, our goal is for every class to be viable, not necessarily optimal, in any role without heavily relying on non-class skill lines.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025
I am missing how this applies to the "fake tanks/healer plague". Yeah, any class can do any role, and yeah, some classes are better at certain roles. What of it?