DarcyMardin wrote: »

Most of my characters are either real healers or real tanks, but I rarely queue for randoms because I don’t want to be rushed through the dungeons by impatient gamers who ignore people who are doing quests or helping new players learn the mechanics. I have zero interest in zipping through a dungeon at top speed, skipping mobs and sometimes bosses, because some folks want to collect as many crystals as they possibly can. I’d rather go mend walls in Cyrodiil for crystals, and I hate PvP.

Problem for me are not the fast DDs. Problem for me is Joe with 1k CP that strugles to hit the 5k DPS mark. I frequently queue with a friend that always comes with me as a fake healer since i often dont need a healer in the first place. When i have him with me he usually deald 50-80% of the DPS.
When queueing alone the best i ever had was a group for a vet vanilla dungeon that dealt a total of 14k including me with 4k. Thats the real annoyance.

Iccotak wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

4) Dungeons 2 part answer
A. Random Dungeon Queue has equal rewards for both Normal & Veteran - so it doesn't encourage people to do the harder content and thus get better. Incentivizing a playstyle of DPS rushing through dungeons, and queue as tank to get faster load time.

I agree with this part. Veteran random que should have a better reward than a normal.

The reason there aren't any tanks or heals is pretty simple.

DPS outnumber both support roles 10 to 1.

DPS want to see big numbers and kill things quickly. When that doesn't happen they whine & complain. Just like the dozen + replies to this thread, and the dozen + threads identical to this one. ZOS MUST change something so their queue times aren't an hour or more. In the mind of most of these winners, they don't have to change anything. Their job is big number not heal or tank.

Except when that big number is the number of minutes they've been in queue. Its never their fault. Its not their fault the level 27 tank didn't keep up with the CP980 magden that Bird of Prey'd through all the trash then pulled the boss. That tank spent all his limited stamina sprinting to keep up. Then that tank couldn't block and everyone died. Then the DPS flames the tank and that person reserves to never deal with random trash DPS again.

And that new player doesn’t have to. They'll get in a guild and group with people they know and like. Its wonderful. Stress free. Room to grow. Patience to learn. None of the migraine that is random general queue.

If you want to see direct examples - go find one of the hundreds of posts made by a new player asking people in randoms not to rush so they can have fun too. Go look at the replies. Find the ones that have 5+ agrees. What did that person say?

"Randoms aren't for you to learn. They have no responsibility to wait for you."

"Its their daily too and they don't want to wait for a newbie. If you can't keep up, don't queue."

"If you want to slow down and do the story, don't waste people's time in randoms. They signed up to get the dungeon done quickly, and you're ruining that. If you want to go slow, do it with a pre-made group."

Then look at these threads popping up wondering how in all the worlds could people not be tanking for memeeme.

These posts are demanding that ZOS force people to tank for them. Like, what?? What value is there in suffering through 10-20 minutes with insufferable people just to get them their random daily reward?

Why would anyone willingly deal with that?

Oh wait, we don't.

Its not the overwhelmingly toxic DPS playerbase's fault that causes tanks to avoid them, its that those tanks are selfish and rude for not catering to their every whim.

I've played since beta. I've seen whiners consistently complain about how damage abilities should heal. Buffs should be widely available on damage abilities. Everything should allow them to easily solo overland content.

This is all a byproduct of those complaints.

No one queues as healers because they're worthless in everything but hard content, and even then theyre boring to play except when you get to dodge roll..

Its also miserable to play as a solo healer. You do 0 damage and any healing you do output is a massive overhead. Then when you do queue theres something like an 85% chance any mistake they make is going to get them attacked, bullied and probably kicked.

Anything that ever made a healer valuable, like exclusive access to powerful offensive buffs are now baked in passives or secondary effect on generally available hybrid skills instead of requiring a dedicated intention to buff.

Look at expert hunter in the fighter's guild.

Something like half of all skills and gearsets heal in some capacity.

No one queues as tanks because its incredibly dull in everything but hard content. Everyone has easy access to damage mitigation and powerful shields.

Look at brawler in the 2h tree. High AoE damage that creates a powerful damage shield. What?

These kinds of design decisions (made at the ruthless demand of DPS players) create a game where solo builds are the only thing that's fun to play.

Except solo builds can't tank harder group content.

I'll say that I am not surprised at all at the demands that ZOS force other players to tank for them. They're even in this thread.

There are only 2 solutions to this problem. Regardless of either, ESO DPS players should humble themselves and learn how to be kind and patient.

1.) Stop almost all hybridization of skills and gearsets. Create a necessity for support classes. Give healers the tools to empower others, including class pets so they can play solo sometimes.

Go find a healer main in other games and ask them what is the most fun about healing.

For like.. 70% of em its being the exclusive access to powerful buffs and relied upon for survival.

If ZOS removed 99.999% hybrid functionality from skills and gearsets across the board, and modified skills to focus on either
A.) Damage, or,
B.) Mitigation, or
C.) Healing, or
D.) Buffing, or
E.) AoE damage or healing

And any skill or gearset that does any multiple of those, it will never be as effective at any one category as skills that only do one thing.

By forcing people to focus on one of those 5 categories, you create a HUGE market for healers or tanks.

This also has the byproduct of drastically nerfing unkillable high damage procset tanks in PvP because there simply is no way for them to access all that power at once.

Of course all the DPS mains will immediately demean this suggestion because its a widespread nerf and if ZOS takes away all their power, they'll quit and go play some other MMO.

Which is fine with me, enjoy your hour long queues.

2.) Nerf boss damage, remove 1 hit mechanics, and cause threat to be generated passively by heavy armor / shield wearers. Make current taunts not have any threat generation unless wearing heavy armor or a shield.

Then get rid of the role select. Instead, once 4 people queue, the dungeon starts. All bosses now play similar to trash mobs but with unique mechanics.

Then your DPS players get to keep all their power, gain more power, and ESO can now focus on empowering hybrid builds instead of this weird, shaky middle ground we have now.

There is the other unmentioned solution, which would require a complete overhaul of the dungeons. If there are too many DPS for the number of tanks and healers, the number of DPS required to fill a party needs to be dramatically increased.

Judging by the difference in queue times, what are currently 4 player dungeons should be 20 player dungeons. 1 tank, 1 healer and 18 DPS. Sure that's bigger than trial groups, but when dealing with overwhelming numbers, none of the previous suggestions are dealing with the actual problem. People want their daily rewards as soon as possible and will game whatever systems are in place to achieve their aim.

Making it easier for tanks or healers to progress in other content doesn't reduce the number of players wanting to do DPS in dungeons. It is a valid concern, but not the main issue. Gear or skill selection checks aren't going to make more people prepare properly for those roles - they just create more barriers.

More experienced players should start tanking for normal dungeons on their DPS character.

My dps magsorc with 26k hp have tanked all normal dungeons including DLCs. I always taunt and pull trash. More often than not I end up doing 40%+ of the group DPS. I fill a void and make the run faster than having a dedicated tank.

If I was a dedicated tank, I would never pug, because I'll be at the mercy of the DPS players in my group. At least on my dps, I know I can contribute in damage and tank.

Fix is easy, take veterans out of the queue and take roles out of the matchmaking for normals, and nerf them if need be.

Sheezabeast wrote: »

ZOS could put this issue to bed by requiring that every new player under level 10 go through a tutorial where they get taught what each role is and what they do in a simulation. Just like the Coldharbour tutorial where they teach you how to block and whatnot...they could teach you what tank means, what aggro means, what buff and debuff means, what pulling means, what working as a team means, what the role of a DD is with the healer and tank, what the healer does....BUT NOOOOOOOOO ZOS refuses to teach the fundamentals, because who knows why.

The problem are not people that are new and don't know. The problem are the people that don't give a damn about other people.
And the next problem is the CP System and some stupid gear decision, that lets them get away with it

Wolfpaw wrote: »

If ZOS made a ESO version of GW2 LFG system all these issues would end. A player driven lfg system is the best option.

Side note on that: the GW2 LfG system has weaknesses too, out of which mainly:
- Description of what the team is looking for is possible, but not mandatory and often not used.
- Even when description is given, many - many - pugs don't care and apply (even if they don't match).

So, yes, the LfG in GW2 is a good basis, however, unfortunately, it relies - still for now - too much on "good will & good practice" of individuals both sides.

Generally, I believe that no matter if we talk about ESO, GW2 or whatever other MMO, it's technically very difficult to put in place a good LfG system. As long as the concept relies on good will and proper behavior of players, there will be troubles because a MMO puts together different categories of players, with different strategies, understanding, needs and objectives, so to build up a working team is not easy.

Personally, I believe that as is now, no matter what game, the best way is to be in a guild, inside which we can then build team of people thinking/playing alike, and go together happily with same objectives/strategies on mind.

I will note that from what I have read in the forums there is only one criterion Zos could implement to prevent fake tanks and that is requiring a taunt to be unlocked or even having one on the bar. The people who noted that also noted that it would be greatly ineffective as that player can just un slot the taunt once they are in the dungeon or just not use it. So the solutions fall back on what OP already mentioned they were aware of.

Indigogo wrote: »

There's many layers to the lack of tanks. For me, I stopped because the quality of the dds was just abysmal, as was dealing with the rudeness of people running ahead and ruining pulls, making things slower and more frustrating.

The skill gap is too high, the nerfs too severe and the casual, lower end of players gets worse and worse.

Being in the game for about three months now I can attest to the low DPS that are found in some groups. I cannot recall a game where the DPS capability varied to such a degree as it does here. Some fights can really take forever and I see my percentage of the damage (as a healer) for the group vary from 15% to 50%. I have started running with guildmates more as a result of that and fake tanks. I also do not heal if someone is not taunting the boss as I figure it is no longer an issue for me.

The best way to solve this problem is to form your own groups with known tanks, healers, and damage.

The only way to enforce roles is for ZOS to define what constitutes those roles, and I can certainly see why they would not want to do that.

First, it will inevitably be the case ZOS will decide that a certain combination meets the role criteria (and it does), but some players won't agree, and we will be back here debating how ZOS should change the role detection.

Second, if the above ends up not being true, then ZOS is probably too restrictive. Being too restrictive stifles innovation and experimentation. Non-meta need not apply.

Third, this will make it harder to form groups. A fake tank in a dungeon is better than sitting in a queue all day long waiting for the one real tank that will play today to log into the game.

jle30303 wrote: »

To be frank: The worst thing about being a tank isn't even the fact that actually trying to win fights is much slower in overland/solo play (although it is) - it's other players.

You are right, but you only cover the reasons why many more experienced tanks dont use the dungeon finder. The other half why we have so few tanks to begin with is also important.

Sooner or later every Tank player is confronted with the game outside of dungeons and trials. Like all other players we also have all the Solo Tasks like Quests and Daily Quests, Delves, Public Dungeons and World Bosses, but also Solo Arenas We have to farm gear, gather Skillpoints and resources. We have to level abilities and progress skillines. All these areas are cathered towards DD players wich requires Tanks to get and maintain a DD spec, including gear/skills/CP, to be able to do them in more than snail speed. This problem is entirely ignored by ZOS and mostly dismissed by parts of the community. When i brought the CP issue up in a thread earlier this year the suggestion from DD players was that i can easily respec back and forth or get a DD character for tasks outside of dungeons and trials. These are the same kind of ppl that complain about long queue times and tell ppl that tehy dont need tanks but then ask why no experienced tanks are available.

In my opinion these are points that have to be adressed to get more players to see Tanks as a sustainable way of playing the game. This of course requires that DD players start to understand the problems and support solutions. Sadly in most cases we end up with threads like this where players suggest restraints for the few remaining tanks to achieve their personal goals.

When i played tank i had 1 advantage and 3 problems.
Advantage: instant dungeon queue.
Problems:
- very low dps, solo questing is a torture;
- difficulty grabbing AOE aggro in dungeons and being nearly useless during mob fights;
- slow movement speed in dungeons, there is always someone rushing ahead.
I rerolled healer, who can also dps, and while getting rid of problems, my nrandom queue times became around 2 minutes. Ever after peple started queuing as fake tanks my queue times became instant, all problems solved.
I am not going back to tanking, unless tank problems are resolved.
Normal random dungeons do not require a real tank. If they were required i would have to go back to my 2 minute queues, and DPS back to their 1 hour queues.
If tank problems were solved there would be more tanks, and then dungeons could be fixed so they require real tanks.