Procs are Good, Actually

Canned_Apples · March 2021

I want to play BGs but proc sets are out of control.

Grimhallow · March 2021

Interesting read for sure, and though I fundamentally disagree I appreciate the thought you put into this.

I do agree that ESO does a terrible job of teaching core mechanics, and I would love to talk about addressing some of those things.

But procs have a few problems:

The first is that, though procs are visible, they are passive. You are nit reacting to a player and what they are doing; and you’re not learning players tells. Walking out of a Crimson proc is not the same type of proficiency as dodging a stun or big combo.

Next, is that better players take better advantage of procs, and they become insanely tanky monsters who can one shot you. I think that besides performance, the meta that procs and health based heals have resulted in is the most oppressive thing for new players because they truly feel like they are nit making a difference. In a no-proc environment, I take damage when I am hit (and if I don’t then I sure won’t be doing damage back). But in the proc meta we have now you can literally do it all. It sucks as a new player.

Nick_Balza · March 2021

I think, that's why below 50 lvl bg so interesting. No proc sets, no antiquities, no monster sets. Just simple craftable/overland sets and class skills. I made new toon and below 50 PvP is just awesome for me.

Sahidom · March 2021

Nick_Balza wrote: »

I think, "The Big Proc Problem" could be solved if abilities from proc would have dependency from spell/physical damage. Or health. Or missing health.

That could prevent abusing proc sets and pay attention to other char parameters.

The problem is not in proc sets, the problem is in ability to abuse them/mechanics to absolute nonsense. Stamcors/stamplars with vateshran staff are ridiculous and it's getting complicated to take game world seriously.

magWardens can join the Vateshran's staf group also.

The problem that I'm seeing with proc sets has been the damage exceeds comparable skill damage that costs stamina or magic at a ferocious velocity where you have no time to counter, if a counter exists. For example, Crimson is a set that overperforms versus a class skill. This set parallels the same Sun Shield templar skill mechanic but much more effective. When you retrace the change logs, Sun Shield was overly nerfed to reduce its performance. Ignoring the previous change log justification, Crimson was introduced that revisits the exact arguments on why the templar's Sun Shield skill was nerfed down. Why did they not buff the skills or why didn't the proc set be equal in comparison? This is just one example. There are many other released sets that have come along with overperforming qualities that just supersede performance of the skills (resource costing skills).

The argument that sets provide a beneficial "skill gap" is mute debate because the exploiting nature the set game mechanics and how to overperform with less GCD for superior results. The current proc damage state is the results of ZOS long history to introduce sets to help close the gap between players; but in reality, it has done the complete opposite. This is where the no-proc PVP environment highlights the core problems with skill performance, and where the actual need to develop a better "skill gap" approach begins. By removing proc elements that provide free damage or healing then the decision will be made whether this "skill based" environment is better than masking "skill based" performance with an overlay of the proc set current performance, which exceeds skill performance that costs resources and GCD.

On the surface, there is no problem with proc sets. The problem falls when a proc set outperforms skills that cost resources, which lays the groundwork for players to abusive, exploit and circumvent mechanics with incredible results. Even the hardiest veteran PVP players get deleted, and IF this is considered bridging the "skill gap," than it's a complete wrong approach. This is more visible in the no-proc test cycle where veteran and new players are more leveled, and the one distinction between the two may defined, as who has better situation awareness and insight to execute offense, defense and counters. These three combat elements are removed from the equation when proc sets performance exceed any resource costing skill.

The focus of the proc set problem may be narrowed down to the overperforming damage and healing done. These two factors overperform and offer no leveling value to close any "skill gaps" since PVP requires dynamic learning versus the memorization of the PVE mechanics in non-PVP game play. Dynamic learning is teachable and anyone can improve upon, when ZOS introduces sets that sets the precedent "learning not required" will always move the game in the wrong direction.

Vermintide · March 2021

Well, now that I've had time to read this post fully, I will just say I agree in general, although this one part stuck out at me.

Is this even about procs? Or is it that if everyone has even a fraction of the statistical capabilities you have had for years - that if that statistical gap shrinks and demands more of your mechanical gap - you won't be able to flex as much? That if everyone is a little more special, you'll be a little less special? Is that what you're afraid of becoming?

This really cuts to the bone of the issue. After all, why are we here, playing PVP in this game? Why not in League of Legends, Destiny, or Call of Duty? It comes down to what you view as the very nature of competition. The execution of raw talent, on an equal playing field.

This game doesn't offer that, and it never has. It doesn't intend to. It has a level of internal balance to stop things getting too out of hand But the ability to build your character for advantage is, it's fair to say, an intended feature in this game.

Let's look at Guild Wars 2. A very interesting game in my opinion, and the one I cut my teeth on MMO PVP in. There's a reason for that: Your PVP "build" was limited, in the interests of maintaining a fair and level playing field. It was pure mechanical execution. Your condi thief might have provoked rage and ire on the forums because it was OP, but it was exactly the same condi thief everyone else had access to. There was no unfair statistical advantage over other players just because you spent another few weeks grinding for that one OP item set.

I would suggest you are correct that a lot of the players concerned with issues like this do indeed fear the fact that without their broken builds, they'd simply suck. But at the same time, the ability to build is a fun part of the game. It's what provides a lasting appeal.

I am much better at games like COD or Battlefield, where the skill is in reaction times and situational awareness. I'd bet most of the high level ESO PVPers absolutely suck at those games and I could kick their asses. But there's a reason I do like playing this game too, even if I'm not as good at it, and the system isn't nearly as fair. I like the depth, progression, and customisation.

The challenge, is finding a way to balance those elements against each other. Sadly, ZOS don't seem interested in doing that. Many of the proc sets are "fair" in my mind, some of them are a little overtuned, but on the whole they are entirely possible to counter. But you can's say the same of items like Malacath or some of the arena weapons, which essentially just give you a large, free damage boost with zero downside. There's nothing an enemy player can do to counteract your free extra damage, other than go and grind until he has the same thing.

And therein lies the rub. Are you willing to go and grind until you have the same thing, or is it time to simply cancel your sub and play a game that's more interested in fair competition?

Goregrinder · March 2021

Vermintide wrote: »

Well, now that I've had time to read this post fully, I will just say I agree in general, although this one part stuck out at me.

Is this even about procs? Or is it that if everyone has even a fraction of the statistical capabilities you have had for years - that if that statistical gap shrinks and demands more of your mechanical gap - you won't be able to flex as much? That if everyone is a little more special, you'll be a little less special? Is that what you're afraid of becoming?

This really cuts to the bone of the issue. After all, why are we here, playing PVP in this game? Why not in League of Legends, Destiny, or Call of Duty? It comes down to what you view as the very nature of competition. The execution of raw talent, on an equal playing field.

This game doesn't offer that, and it never has. It doesn't intend to. It has a level of internal balance to stop things getting too out of hand But the ability to build your character for advantage is, it's fair to say, an intended feature in this game.

Let's look at Guild Wars 2. A very interesting game in my opinion, and the one I cut my teeth on MMO PVP in. There's a reason for that: Your PVP "build" was limited, in the interests of maintaining a fair and level playing field. It was pure mechanical execution. Your condi thief might have provoked rage and ire on the forums because it was OP, but it was exactly the same condi thief everyone else had access to. There was no unfair statistical advantage over other players just because you spent another few weeks grinding for that one OP item set.

I would suggest you are correct that a lot of the players concerned with issues like this do indeed fear the fact that without their broken builds, they'd simply suck. But at the same time, the ability to build is a fun part of the game. It's what provides a lasting appeal.

I am much better at games like COD or Battlefield, where the skill is in reaction times and situational awareness. I'd bet most of the high level ESO PVPers absolutely suck at those games and I could kick their asses. But there's a reason I do like playing this game too, even if I'm not as good at it, and the system isn't nearly as fair. I like the depth, progression, and customisation.

The challenge, is finding a way to balance those elements against each other. Sadly, ZOS don't seem interested in doing that. Many of the proc sets are "fair" in my mind, some of them are a little overtuned, but on the whole they are entirely possible to counter. But you can's say the same of items like Malacath or some of the arena weapons, which essentially just give you a large, free damage boost with zero downside. There's nothing an enemy player can do to counteract your free extra damage, other than go and grind until he has the same thing.

And therein lies the rub. Are you willing to go and grind until you have the same thing, or is it time to simply cancel your sub and play a game that's more interested in fair competition?

That is correct, we are here for Player vs Player, not ZOS vs ZOS. As of right now if someone has high resists I can directly counter that by running abilities on my build that remove enemy resists, or I can stack penetration nullifying their resists. I can also run a purge to directly counter DoTs. I can run snares to directly counter movement speed abilities. Interrupts directly counter spell casting, so on and so forth.

What can I slot on my bars right now, or what gear sets can I wear currently in game that will shut off my enemy's procs for a few moments much like how purge can shut off enemy dots?

Vermintide · March 2021

Goregrinder wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

Well, now that I've had time to read this post fully, I will just say I agree in general, although this one part stuck out at me.

Is this even about procs? Or is it that if everyone has even a fraction of the statistical capabilities you have had for years - that if that statistical gap shrinks and demands more of your mechanical gap - you won't be able to flex as much? That if everyone is a little more special, you'll be a little less special? Is that what you're afraid of becoming?

This really cuts to the bone of the issue. After all, why are we here, playing PVP in this game? Why not in League of Legends, Destiny, or Call of Duty? It comes down to what you view as the very nature of competition. The execution of raw talent, on an equal playing field.

This game doesn't offer that, and it never has. It doesn't intend to. It has a level of internal balance to stop things getting too out of hand But the ability to build your character for advantage is, it's fair to say, an intended feature in this game.

Let's look at Guild Wars 2. A very interesting game in my opinion, and the one I cut my teeth on MMO PVP in. There's a reason for that: Your PVP "build" was limited, in the interests of maintaining a fair and level playing field. It was pure mechanical execution. Your condi thief might have provoked rage and ire on the forums because it was OP, but it was exactly the same condi thief everyone else had access to. There was no unfair statistical advantage over other players just because you spent another few weeks grinding for that one OP item set.

I would suggest you are correct that a lot of the players concerned with issues like this do indeed fear the fact that without their broken builds, they'd simply suck. But at the same time, the ability to build is a fun part of the game. It's what provides a lasting appeal.

I am much better at games like COD or Battlefield, where the skill is in reaction times and situational awareness. I'd bet most of the high level ESO PVPers absolutely suck at those games and I could kick their asses. But there's a reason I do like playing this game too, even if I'm not as good at it, and the system isn't nearly as fair. I like the depth, progression, and customisation.

The challenge, is finding a way to balance those elements against each other. Sadly, ZOS don't seem interested in doing that. Many of the proc sets are "fair" in my mind, some of them are a little overtuned, but on the whole they are entirely possible to counter. But you can's say the same of items like Malacath or some of the arena weapons, which essentially just give you a large, free damage boost with zero downside. There's nothing an enemy player can do to counteract your free extra damage, other than go and grind until he has the same thing.

And therein lies the rub. Are you willing to go and grind until you have the same thing, or is it time to simply cancel your sub and play a game that's more interested in fair competition?

That is correct, we are here for Player vs Player, not ZOS vs ZOS. As of right now if someone has high resists I can directly counter that by running abilities on my build that remove enemy resists, or I can stack penetration nullifying their resists. I can also run a purge to directly counter DoTs. I can run snares to directly counter movement speed abilities. Interrupts directly counter spell casting, so on and so forth.

What can I slot on my bars right now, or what gear sets can I wear currently in game that will shut off my enemy's procs for a few moments much like how purge can shut off enemy dots?

Well like, you can just dodge roll most of them.

divnyi · March 2021

Vermintide wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

Well, now that I've had time to read this post fully, I will just say I agree in general, although this one part stuck out at me.

Is this even about procs? Or is it that if everyone has even a fraction of the statistical capabilities you have had for years - that if that statistical gap shrinks and demands more of your mechanical gap - you won't be able to flex as much? That if everyone is a little more special, you'll be a little less special? Is that what you're afraid of becoming?

This really cuts to the bone of the issue. After all, why are we here, playing PVP in this game? Why not in League of Legends, Destiny, or Call of Duty? It comes down to what you view as the very nature of competition. The execution of raw talent, on an equal playing field.

This game doesn't offer that, and it never has. It doesn't intend to. It has a level of internal balance to stop things getting too out of hand But the ability to build your character for advantage is, it's fair to say, an intended feature in this game.

Let's look at Guild Wars 2. A very interesting game in my opinion, and the one I cut my teeth on MMO PVP in. There's a reason for that: Your PVP "build" was limited, in the interests of maintaining a fair and level playing field. It was pure mechanical execution. Your condi thief might have provoked rage and ire on the forums because it was OP, but it was exactly the same condi thief everyone else had access to. There was no unfair statistical advantage over other players just because you spent another few weeks grinding for that one OP item set.

I would suggest you are correct that a lot of the players concerned with issues like this do indeed fear the fact that without their broken builds, they'd simply suck. But at the same time, the ability to build is a fun part of the game. It's what provides a lasting appeal.

I am much better at games like COD or Battlefield, where the skill is in reaction times and situational awareness. I'd bet most of the high level ESO PVPers absolutely suck at those games and I could kick their asses. But there's a reason I do like playing this game too, even if I'm not as good at it, and the system isn't nearly as fair. I like the depth, progression, and customisation.

The challenge, is finding a way to balance those elements against each other. Sadly, ZOS don't seem interested in doing that. Many of the proc sets are "fair" in my mind, some of them are a little overtuned, but on the whole they are entirely possible to counter. But you can's say the same of items like Malacath or some of the arena weapons, which essentially just give you a large, free damage boost with zero downside. There's nothing an enemy player can do to counteract your free extra damage, other than go and grind until he has the same thing.

And therein lies the rub. Are you willing to go and grind until you have the same thing, or is it time to simply cancel your sub and play a game that's more interested in fair competition?

That is correct, we are here for Player vs Player, not ZOS vs ZOS. As of right now if someone has high resists I can directly counter that by running abilities on my build that remove enemy resists, or I can stack penetration nullifying their resists. I can also run a purge to directly counter DoTs. I can run snares to directly counter movement speed abilities. Interrupts directly counter spell casting, so on and so forth.

What can I slot on my bars right now, or what gear sets can I wear currently in game that will shut off my enemy's procs for a few moments much like how purge can shut off enemy dots?

Well like, you can just dodge roll most of them.

Came here to write the same thing Goregrinder said. At the place when he said procs are interactibe... I was like "what".

Yes, old proc sets were like that. Some telegraphed delayed AoE procs. Nobody is complaining about those. Nobody use those today too.

Most of the popular PvP procs are dots that are applied on damage (or on application of some skill). You can't dodge em (except you can dodge first application on skill-based procs, but he will just redo the skill). You can't block em. Heck, some are not even purgeable (vate staff). And even if they are purgeable, unless you play templar, your best purge removes 3 random debuffs for 5k mana, including minor stuff and elemental debuffs - you can have like 7+ debuffs at times. Good luck hitting the right debuff that is killing you now.

That's the thing, latest dot proc sets are uninteractible. The best interaction you can do is pump defences up high and use HP-based heals. And when you do this, it raises the question "how do I do damage now?". Oh irony, you do damage with proc sets when you are tanky.

Vermintide · March 2021

divnyi wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

Well, now that I've had time to read this post fully, I will just say I agree in general, although this one part stuck out at me.

Is this even about procs? Or is it that if everyone has even a fraction of the statistical capabilities you have had for years - that if that statistical gap shrinks and demands more of your mechanical gap - you won't be able to flex as much? That if everyone is a little more special, you'll be a little less special? Is that what you're afraid of becoming?

This really cuts to the bone of the issue. After all, why are we here, playing PVP in this game? Why not in League of Legends, Destiny, or Call of Duty? It comes down to what you view as the very nature of competition. The execution of raw talent, on an equal playing field.

This game doesn't offer that, and it never has. It doesn't intend to. It has a level of internal balance to stop things getting too out of hand But the ability to build your character for advantage is, it's fair to say, an intended feature in this game.

Let's look at Guild Wars 2. A very interesting game in my opinion, and the one I cut my teeth on MMO PVP in. There's a reason for that: Your PVP "build" was limited, in the interests of maintaining a fair and level playing field. It was pure mechanical execution. Your condi thief might have provoked rage and ire on the forums because it was OP, but it was exactly the same condi thief everyone else had access to. There was no unfair statistical advantage over other players just because you spent another few weeks grinding for that one OP item set.

I would suggest you are correct that a lot of the players concerned with issues like this do indeed fear the fact that without their broken builds, they'd simply suck. But at the same time, the ability to build is a fun part of the game. It's what provides a lasting appeal.

I am much better at games like COD or Battlefield, where the skill is in reaction times and situational awareness. I'd bet most of the high level ESO PVPers absolutely suck at those games and I could kick their asses. But there's a reason I do like playing this game too, even if I'm not as good at it, and the system isn't nearly as fair. I like the depth, progression, and customisation.

The challenge, is finding a way to balance those elements against each other. Sadly, ZOS don't seem interested in doing that. Many of the proc sets are "fair" in my mind, some of them are a little overtuned, but on the whole they are entirely possible to counter. But you can's say the same of items like Malacath or some of the arena weapons, which essentially just give you a large, free damage boost with zero downside. There's nothing an enemy player can do to counteract your free extra damage, other than go and grind until he has the same thing.

And therein lies the rub. Are you willing to go and grind until you have the same thing, or is it time to simply cancel your sub and play a game that's more interested in fair competition?

That is correct, we are here for Player vs Player, not ZOS vs ZOS. As of right now if someone has high resists I can directly counter that by running abilities on my build that remove enemy resists, or I can stack penetration nullifying their resists. I can also run a purge to directly counter DoTs. I can run snares to directly counter movement speed abilities. Interrupts directly counter spell casting, so on and so forth.

What can I slot on my bars right now, or what gear sets can I wear currently in game that will shut off my enemy's procs for a few moments much like how purge can shut off enemy dots?

Well like, you can just dodge roll most of them.

Came here to write the same thing Goregrinder said. At the place when he said procs are interactibe... I was like "what".

Yes, old proc sets were like that. Some telegraphed delayed AoE procs. Nobody is complaining about those. Nobody use those today too.

Most of the popular PvP procs are dots that are applied on damage (or on application of some skill). You can't dodge em (except you can dodge first application on skill-based procs, but he will just redo the skill). You can't block em. Heck, some are not even purgeable (vate staff). And even if they are purgeable, unless you play templar, your best purge removes 3 random debuffs for 5k mana, including minor stuff and elemental debuffs - you can have like 7+ debuffs at times. Good luck hitting the right debuff that is killing you now.

That's the thing, latest dot proc sets are uninteractible. The best interaction you can do is pump defences up high and use HP-based heals. And when you do this, it raises the question "how do I do damage now?". Oh irony, you do damage with proc sets when you are tanky.

So in other words, it's not proc sets which are broken and cheesy, but rather specific pieces of gear (which incidentally all seem to come from DLC

) that are problematic? That's what I thought.

I will freely admit that I've been crutching on Zaan for a long time, but rare is the instance that set alone secures me a kill. I have to control the proc (which is in itself difficult) in order to line it up with my burst, otherwise it's pointless. And that's if I stay alive long enough in any case- As a magblade, the option to build one of these EZmode proc tanks you talk about simply doesn't exist. A skilled opponent will CC immune to invalidate my fear, roll twice, be out of the proc's range and dodge my bow before I can even say "nerf sorc".

We're all used to dodging the big green bear, we're all used to blocking when we hear that thunderclap, so like you say, those sets are fine. But by the same token, that must also mean that if a skilled player can utilise them effectively, that's fine too, and the extra damage they gain from it should be a reward for skilled use of the gear, right?

Balance and poor design is the problem, not simply procs.

E-Zekiel · March 2021

confettibae wrote: »

so I didn't get 2 shotted.

That is exactly the problem with proc sets.

You use them or you get destroyed effortlessly by people using them.

I use them because I have to, because other people do, not because I like what they do to PVP.

fred4 · March 2021

I present as evidence the following screenshot. This is the kind of thing that drives me to despair. It is one of the reasons why I'm with the OP on this topic and why I think concerns over proc sets are overblown or at least require some perspective. It was taken today on PC EU, e.g. in the current patch.

I have 1570 CP and am specced into damage and sustain. I wore Eternal Vigor + Amber Plasm + 1x Skoria and 1x Wild Hunt, 2x heavy, 5x light. I have a sharpened lightning staff and about 10K pen. I use 3x Infused spell damage enchants. My unbuffed Sweeps tooltip is just over 3K. Three of my four blue CP slottables are invested into damage. I'm scratching my head whether I had all my buffs up, but I have a habit of constantly casting my rune and RAT out of combat, so I should have.

As far as I can tell there's nothing special, but also nothing wrong with my build. I played a modified version in Cyrodiil today, substituting Shacklebreaker for Eternal Vigor and all Swift jewelry for Wild Hunt. I melted people. Some melted me. Some that did got melted back later. It was fun and it was fair. Then I went to IC. As you can see, I was up against a stamplar. Observe his damage versus mine:

Me: Sweeps, crit: 1359
Him: Jabs, crit: 3412

Me: Sweeps, non-crit: 866
Him: Jabs, non-crit: 2386

Do you see a proc in sight? No! This had nothing to do with procs being available in IC.

He out-damaged me by +150% on crits and +175% on non-crits. How do you explain that? You can point to any number of individual things. For example he likely had full pen on me, due to using Pierce Armor (I checked, he did) and my poor physical resistance. Maybe he had no sustain to speak of. Maybe he wore Clever Alchemist. I can accept and explain a certain amount of damage differential that way, but not +150%. I would love to have seen his build.

Whoever says that stat-based builds do not scale, that procs are "free" damage and therefore stat-based builds can't compete with procs, whoever says that is full of it. I may die to procs, but I also die to builds like these. Builds that, inexplicably, do a multiple of damage to me than I can do to them with what is essentially the same skill.

Whoever says that playing a stat-based build requires more skill than a proc-based one is also full of it. I understand the logic of that argument, however when a stat-based build overperforms on individual attacks as shown, that's about knowledge and buildcraft, not skill. It is emphatically not about the stamplar performing some hard-to execute combo. Much like people who use procs, this stamplar is clearly on to something, but it's more insidious than the proc you can clearly see. That's why I'm with the OP on this topic.

Abyssmol · March 2021

fred4 wrote: »

I present as evidence the following screenshot. This is the kind of thing that drives me to despair. It is one of the reasons why I'm with the OP on this topic and why I think concerns over proc sets are overblown or at least require some perspective. It was taken today on PC EU, e.g. in the current patch.

I have 1570 CP and am specced into damage and sustain. I wore Eternal Vigor + Amber Plasm + 1x Skoria and 1x Wild Hunt, 2x heavy, 5x light. I have a sharpened lightning staff and about 10K pen. I use 3x Infused spell damage enchants. My unbuffed Sweeps tooltip is just over 3K. Three of my four blue CP slottables are invested into damage. I'm scratching my head whether I had all my buffs up, but I have a habit of constantly casting my rune and RAT out of combat, so I should have.

As far as I can tell there's nothing special, but also nothing wrong with my build. I played a modified version in Cyrodiil today, substituting Shacklebreaker for Eternal Vigor and all Swift jewelry for Wild Hunt. I melted people. Some melted me. Some that did got melted back later. It was fun and it was fair. Then I went to IC. As you can see, I was up against a stamplar. Observe his damage versus mine:

Me: Sweeps, crit: 1359
Him: Jabs, crit: 3412

Me: Sweeps, non-crit: 866
Him: Jabs, non-crit: 2386

Do you see a proc in sight? No! This had nothing to do with procs being available in IC.

He out-damaged me by +150% on crits and +175% on non-crits. How do you explain that? You can point to any number of individual things. For example he likely had full pen on me, due to using Pierce Armor (I checked, he did) and my poor physical resistance. Maybe he had no sustain to speak of. Maybe he wore Clever Alchemist. I can accept and explain a certain amount of damage differential that way, but not +150%. I would love to have seen his build.

Whoever says that stat-based builds do not scale, that procs are "free" damage and therefore stat-based builds can't compete with procs, whoever says that is full of it. I may die to procs, but I also die to builds like these. Builds that, inexplicably, do a multiple of damage to me than I can do to them with what is essentially the same skill.

Whoever says that playing a stat-based build requires more skill than a proc-based one is also full of it. I understand the logic of that argument, however when a stat-based build overperforms on individual attacks as shown, that's about knowledge and buildcraft, not skill. It is emphatically not about the stamplar performing some hard-to execute combo. Much like people who use procs, this stamplar is clearly on to something, but it's more insidious than the proc you can clearly see. That's why I'm with the OP on this topic.

The difference is that you were fighting against a stamina templar. Damage scales better with medium armor. Your opponent could have had easily 5k weapon damage. You were at a disadvantage the moment you engaged the stamina toon. Simple!

fred4 · March 2021

Abyssmol wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I present as evidence the following screenshot. This is the kind of thing that drives me to despair. It is one of the reasons why I'm with the OP on this topic and why I think concerns over proc sets are overblown or at least require some perspective. It was taken today on PC EU, e.g. in the current patch.

I have 1570 CP and am specced into damage and sustain. I wore Eternal Vigor + Amber Plasm + 1x Skoria and 1x Wild Hunt, 2x heavy, 5x light. I have a sharpened lightning staff and about 10K pen. I use 3x Infused spell damage enchants. My unbuffed Sweeps tooltip is just over 3K. Three of my four blue CP slottables are invested into damage. I'm scratching my head whether I had all my buffs up, but I have a habit of constantly casting my rune and RAT out of combat, so I should have.

As far as I can tell there's nothing special, but also nothing wrong with my build. I played a modified version in Cyrodiil today, substituting Shacklebreaker for Eternal Vigor and all Swift jewelry for Wild Hunt. I melted people. Some melted me. Some that did got melted back later. It was fun and it was fair. Then I went to IC. As you can see, I was up against a stamplar. Observe his damage versus mine:

Me: Sweeps, crit: 1359
Him: Jabs, crit: 3412

Me: Sweeps, non-crit: 866
Him: Jabs, non-crit: 2386

Do you see a proc in sight? No! This had nothing to do with procs being available in IC.

He out-damaged me by +150% on crits and +175% on non-crits. How do you explain that? You can point to any number of individual things. For example he likely had full pen on me, due to using Pierce Armor (I checked, he did) and my poor physical resistance. Maybe he had no sustain to speak of. Maybe he wore Clever Alchemist. I can accept and explain a certain amount of damage differential that way, but not +150%. I would love to have seen his build.

Whoever says that stat-based builds do not scale, that procs are "free" damage and therefore stat-based builds can't compete with procs, whoever says that is full of it. I may die to procs, but I also die to builds like these. Builds that, inexplicably, do a multiple of damage to me than I can do to them with what is essentially the same skill.

Whoever says that playing a stat-based build requires more skill than a proc-based one is also full of it. I understand the logic of that argument, however when a stat-based build overperforms on individual attacks as shown, that's about knowledge and buildcraft, not skill. It is emphatically not about the stamplar performing some hard-to execute combo. Much like people who use procs, this stamplar is clearly on to something, but it's more insidious than the proc you can clearly see. That's why I'm with the OP on this topic.

The difference is that you were fighting against a stamina templar. Damage scales better with medium armor. Your opponent could have had easily 5k weapon damage. You were at a disadvantage the moment you engaged the stamina toon. Simple!

5K weapon or spell damage is nothing these days, nor does it mean all that much. Please show me the build where that comes out as 2.5 times the damage I can do to them. I know that stamina skills tend to be stronger than their magicka counterparts (for reasons that feel ever more bizarre to me, given the armor mitigation differences), but I cannot fathom how that adds up to a factor of 2.5.

WhyEvenTry · March 2021

Did they have major evasion?

Abyssmol · March 2021

fred4 wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I present as evidence the following screenshot. This is the kind of thing that drives me to despair. It is one of the reasons why I'm with the OP on this topic and why I think concerns over proc sets are overblown or at least require some perspective. It was taken today on PC EU, e.g. in the current patch.

I have 1570 CP and am specced into damage and sustain. I wore Eternal Vigor + Amber Plasm + 1x Skoria and 1x Wild Hunt, 2x heavy, 5x light. I have a sharpened lightning staff and about 10K pen. I use 3x Infused spell damage enchants. My unbuffed Sweeps tooltip is just over 3K. Three of my four blue CP slottables are invested into damage. I'm scratching my head whether I had all my buffs up, but I have a habit of constantly casting my rune and RAT out of combat, so I should have.

As far as I can tell there's nothing special, but also nothing wrong with my build. I played a modified version in Cyrodiil today, substituting Shacklebreaker for Eternal Vigor and all Swift jewelry for Wild Hunt. I melted people. Some melted me. Some that did got melted back later. It was fun and it was fair. Then I went to IC. As you can see, I was up against a stamplar. Observe his damage versus mine:

Me: Sweeps, crit: 1359
Him: Jabs, crit: 3412

Me: Sweeps, non-crit: 866
Him: Jabs, non-crit: 2386

Do you see a proc in sight? No! This had nothing to do with procs being available in IC.

He out-damaged me by +150% on crits and +175% on non-crits. How do you explain that? You can point to any number of individual things. For example he likely had full pen on me, due to using Pierce Armor (I checked, he did) and my poor physical resistance. Maybe he had no sustain to speak of. Maybe he wore Clever Alchemist. I can accept and explain a certain amount of damage differential that way, but not +150%. I would love to have seen his build.

Whoever says that stat-based builds do not scale, that procs are "free" damage and therefore stat-based builds can't compete with procs, whoever says that is full of it. I may die to procs, but I also die to builds like these. Builds that, inexplicably, do a multiple of damage to me than I can do to them with what is essentially the same skill.

Whoever says that playing a stat-based build requires more skill than a proc-based one is also full of it. I understand the logic of that argument, however when a stat-based build overperforms on individual attacks as shown, that's about knowledge and buildcraft, not skill. It is emphatically not about the stamplar performing some hard-to execute combo. Much like people who use procs, this stamplar is clearly on to something, but it's more insidious than the proc you can clearly see. That's why I'm with the OP on this topic.

The difference is that you were fighting against a stamina templar. Damage scales better with medium armor. Your opponent could have had easily 5k weapon damage. You were at a disadvantage the moment you engaged the stamina toon. Simple!

5K weapon or spell damage is nothing these days, nor does it mean all that much. Please show me the build where that comes out as 2.5 times the damage I can do to them. I know that stamina skills tend to be stronger than their magicka counterparts (for reasons that feel ever more bizarre to me, given the armor mitigation differences), but I cannot fathom how that adds up to a factor of 2.5.

Whatever the weapon damage was on the stamina character, it was definitely much higher than yours spell damage. Like I said before medium armor has % modifier weapons damage, light armor does not. Stanplar has major and minor Brutality plus 6% additional weapon damage from passive, which all these WD scales even better with medium armor. Finally, you were wearing 5 light armor, that is an increase of 5% damage taken from medium armor. You were screwed from the beginning...

Abyssmol · March 2021

Abyssmol wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I present as evidence the following screenshot. This is the kind of thing that drives me to despair. It is one of the reasons why I'm with the OP on this topic and why I think concerns over proc sets are overblown or at least require some perspective. It was taken today on PC EU, e.g. in the current patch.

I have 1570 CP and am specced into damage and sustain. I wore Eternal Vigor + Amber Plasm + 1x Skoria and 1x Wild Hunt, 2x heavy, 5x light. I have a sharpened lightning staff and about 10K pen. I use 3x Infused spell damage enchants. My unbuffed Sweeps tooltip is just over 3K. Three of my four blue CP slottables are invested into damage. I'm scratching my head whether I had all my buffs up, but I have a habit of constantly casting my rune and RAT out of combat, so I should have.

As far as I can tell there's nothing special, but also nothing wrong with my build. I played a modified version in Cyrodiil today, substituting Shacklebreaker for Eternal Vigor and all Swift jewelry for Wild Hunt. I melted people. Some melted me. Some that did got melted back later. It was fun and it was fair. Then I went to IC. As you can see, I was up against a stamplar. Observe his damage versus mine:

Me: Sweeps, crit: 1359
Him: Jabs, crit: 3412

Me: Sweeps, non-crit: 866
Him: Jabs, non-crit: 2386

Do you see a proc in sight? No! This had nothing to do with procs being available in IC.

He out-damaged me by +150% on crits and +175% on non-crits. How do you explain that? You can point to any number of individual things. For example he likely had full pen on me, due to using Pierce Armor (I checked, he did) and my poor physical resistance. Maybe he had no sustain to speak of. Maybe he wore Clever Alchemist. I can accept and explain a certain amount of damage differential that way, but not +150%. I would love to have seen his build.

Whoever says that stat-based builds do not scale, that procs are "free" damage and therefore stat-based builds can't compete with procs, whoever says that is full of it. I may die to procs, but I also die to builds like these. Builds that, inexplicably, do a multiple of damage to me than I can do to them with what is essentially the same skill.

Whoever says that playing a stat-based build requires more skill than a proc-based one is also full of it. I understand the logic of that argument, however when a stat-based build overperforms on individual attacks as shown, that's about knowledge and buildcraft, not skill. It is emphatically not about the stamplar performing some hard-to execute combo. Much like people who use procs, this stamplar is clearly on to something, but it's more insidious than the proc you can clearly see. That's why I'm with the OP on this topic.

The difference is that you were fighting against a stamina templar. Damage scales better with medium armor. Your opponent could have had easily 5k weapon damage. You were at a disadvantage the moment you engaged the stamina toon. Simple!

5K weapon or spell damage is nothing these days, nor does it mean all that much. Please show me the build where that comes out as 2.5 times the damage I can do to them. I know that stamina skills tend to be stronger than their magicka counterparts (for reasons that feel ever more bizarre to me, given the armor mitigation differences), but I cannot fathom how that adds up to a factor of 2.5.

Whatever the weapon damage was on the stamina character, it was definitely much higher than yours spell damage. Like I said before medium armor has % modifier weapons damage, light armor does not. Stanplar has major and minor Brutality plus 6% additional weapon damage from passive, which all these WD scales even better with medium armor. Finally, you were wearing 5 light armor, that is an increase of 5% damage taken from medium armor. You were screwed from the beginning...

also like someone posted here, major evasion and roll dodge (only accessible/ possible on medium armor) would increase the damage mitigation from your sweeps by 30%. All that would probably add up to the numbers you got. Pretty balance, right?

Urzigurumash · March 2021

Abyssmol wrote: »

Finally, you were wearing 5 light armor, that is an increase of 5% damage taken from medium armor.

From what you've seen, does Heavy Armor MagPlar work in this environment without access to proc sets?

fred4 · March 2021

You guys are reaching for explanations and getting things wrong. No, stamplar does not have Minor Brutality. That is DK. In fact it is magplar which has Minor Sorcery. Yes, medium armor gets you +weapon damage, but that is down to 10% in 5 medium and, conversely, light armor gets extra penetration. No, I do not take 5% extra physical damage, because I'm also wearing 2x heavy armor. So it's 3%. Why even mention that? We're talking about 150% damage difference in total or 175% non-crit. That is 2.5x of my damage to him (crit) or 2.75x (non-crit). That is a huge difference. The access to Shuffle is a good point, but not enough alone to explain this. We're talking about what, these days, 20%?

Abyssmol · March 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

Finally, you were wearing 5 light armor, that is an increase of 5% damage taken from medium armor.

From what you've seen, does Heavy Armor MagPlar work in this environment without access to proc sets?

No really, heavy armor makes you tankier and gives you better heals because of the passive, but the damage output is less (less crit and penetration). If you have to fight a stamina player that uses major evasion (most stamina players do) your spammable would be doing 25% to 30% less damage anyway...ZOS needs to better balance the classes that has fallen behind. They have nerfed Templars to the ground directly and indirectly (evasion buff).

WhyEvenTry · March 2021

fred4 wrote: »

You guys are reaching for explanations and getting things wrong. No, stamplar does not have Minor Brutality. That is DK. In fact it is magplar which has Minor Sorcery. Yes, medium armor gets you +weapon damage, but that is down to 10% in 5 medium and, conversely, light armor gets extra penetration. No, I do not take 5% extra physical damage, because I'm also wearing 2x heavy armor. So it's 3%. Why even mention that? We're talking about 150% damage difference in total or 175% non-crit. That is 2.5x of my damage to him (crit) or 2.75x (non-crit). That is a huge difference. The access to Shuffle is a good point, but not enough alone to explain this. We're talking about what, these days, 20%?

Shuffle is 20% mitigation to your jabs, this is A LOT of mitigation to your dmg. He has more resists than you which is even more mitigation.

Eternal vigor + Amber plasm isn't exactly a high dmg setup, so he most likely was running sets with way more dmg than you.

fred4 · March 2021

WhyEvenTry wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

You guys are reaching for explanations and getting things wrong. No, stamplar does not have Minor Brutality. That is DK. In fact it is magplar which has Minor Sorcery. Yes, medium armor gets you +weapon damage, but that is down to 10% in 5 medium and, conversely, light armor gets extra penetration. No, I do not take 5% extra physical damage, because I'm also wearing 2x heavy armor. So it's 3%. Why even mention that? We're talking about 150% damage difference in total or 175% non-crit. That is 2.5x of my damage to him (crit) or 2.75x (non-crit). That is a huge difference. The access to Shuffle is a good point, but not enough alone to explain this. We're talking about what, these days, 20%?

Shuffle is 20% mitigation to your jabs, this is A LOT of mitigation to your dmg. He has more resists than you which is even more mitigation.

Eternal vigor + Amber plasm isn't exactly a high dmg setup, so he most likely was running sets with way more dmg than you.

How does that add up? Sets with way more damage and also more mitigation? How is 20% a lot of mitigation when our non-crit damage differed by a factor of 2.75?

Anyway the point is when you say "most likely", that's not really good enough. I'm more familiar with nightblades and have played this game long enough to know stamblade has a lot more raw damage than a magblade. They just do. I know it from the receiving end and from the dishing out, as I play both classes. At the same time I have never been 100% clear as to why that is. It's more than getting higher weapon damage. It's more than resistances. I've lately figured it has to do with the compromises to produce a viable build that plays decently well. Stamblade is just less compromised, due to things like Rally, dodge roll sustain and automatic speed from a bow back bar and/or from being a woodelf. At the same time I have never fully wrapped my head around how all of these things add up to the stunning differences in spammable skill damage we see with stamblades versus magblades or with templars in this example. I would have loved to know how much sustain that stamplar was running, what sets, what buffs he had (Continuous Attack) and so on. That all of that can apparently add up to this level of imbalance is shocking. I was hoping - I thought I saw signs - of the new CP system evening things out. Everyone being on the squishy side relative to each other would be fine, but ... nope.

The point I really agree with the OP about is that the game is not transparent and that that is bad. Procs at least have high viosibility. That also makes them the easy target for players' wrath, not because they represent the most grossly aggravating imbalance in the game, but because they let you know what it was that killed you.

divnyi · March 2021

Vermintide wrote: »

I will freely admit that I've been crutching on Zaan for a long time, but rare is the instance that set alone secures me a kill. I have to control the proc (which is in itself difficult) in order to line it up with my burst, otherwise it's pointless. And that's if I stay alive long enough in any case- As a magblade, the option to build one of these EZmode proc tanks you talk about simply doesn't exist. A skilled opponent will CC immune to invalidate my fear, roll twice, be out of the proc's range and dodge my bow before I can even say "nerf sorc".

We're all used to dodging the big green bear, we're all used to blocking when we hear that thunderclap, so like you say, those sets are fine. But by the same token, that must also mean that if a skilled player can utilise them effectively, that's fine too, and the extra damage they gain from it should be a reward for skilled use of the gear, right?

You can roll dodge follow the initial dodge. That would require them to dodge 3 times, eating all the stamina. Meanwhile, you will do at least 5k from Zaan (which is the damage of any other proc set).

As I said, proc sets you can avoid aren't problematic. It's unavoidable 5-8k damage dots that stick to you is the problem. Like oblivion foe, syvarra etc. When skilled group use those, your character melts just because they look in your direction.

I'm a member of bg pvp guild. Today we had 3 groups of our members running BGs at the same time, often ending up in the same fight. My group had to slot purge on 2 characters and actively use it a whole lot to survive this proc mess.

TheBonesXXX · March 2021

Zski wrote: »

Hi! If you're here just to rant about skillgaps and call me cheese or whatever, feel free to leave a comment below. In the event we can skip that, I intend to put forward my thoughts on Procs, what they get *right*, what older stat-based models (and their adherents) get *wrong*, and why the glory days of procless pvp probably aren't as glorious as a lot of posters seem to think. This isn't going to be exhaustive by any means, simply my thoughts and opinions re: proc sets, the current direction of the game with the Q3 timer, and how we think about procs and pvp in this game in general, as a LOT of the material seems to essentially come from one source: high end pvp players, typically in a network, and largely content creators.

- Proc Sets are Good, Actually -

ESO PvP has a litany of problems - difficult to access, cliqueish by nature, rife with Feels Bad moments, performance. But much of this, performance aside, are social problems - not knowing the right people, joining the right guilds, pvping at the right times, etc. One of the most common complaints I hear about PvPers *from* PvPers, however, is -how bad everyone is-. Can't siege this, can't kill that, can't heal this. So bad. Potato potato. This is REALLY common when it comes to direct PvP contact in a lot of creator content - Streamer/Youtuber finds a guy, DIzzy Heavy Done,

"Just another potato"

Similarly, the general skill gap is often commented on in a less than favorable light by a factions own soldiers. See a 632 fighting in a field, an enemy 810 attacking. 632 blocks, misuses an ultimate, drops.

"Just another potato"

Now, *generally*, this divide exists in basically every game - that's the skill gap, after all. I'm bringing it up here because ESO itself, as a game, as a construct, is extremely guilty of perpetuating the skill gap rather than offering players ways to close it. That is, ESO is an *extremely terrible teacher* when it comes to PvP. Not only that, but it fails in several key ways that not only prevent newer or less hardcore players from learning, but in ways that make it difficulty to discern the actual game rules at all. I'll explain.

In modern video games, there's two essential parts we've come to expect and rely on - the game mechanical, and the game interactable. The game mechanical is the hardwired rules of the game: in older board games, this would be "one player takes their turn at a time" or "you can only move as many spaces as the die roll dictates" - the bones of the game, the 0s and 1s of the game Matrix. In video games, this is the functional code. Set health=0, set penetration=3000, pen vs. armor, etc. The nuts and bolts.

Then there's the game interactable - or the game aesthetic if you prefer. What we see and experience that converts the game mechanical into an intelligible, interactable space for our thinking lightning meat to make sense of. You COULD, PROBABLY find some way to play ESO without this - by manipulating code and inputs to some degree - but it would, to very nearly everyone, be an uninteresting mess nearly impossible to understand. We shorthand inputs and game moves in increasingly complex systems by using the game interactable as a liaison between our stupid electric mush lumps and the game code. I click the mouse button, character swings sword or shoots staff magic, game moves code. Easy.

Unfortunately, ESO isn't very *clear* very often on what's happening in the game interactable. This applies extremely superficially - with the fashion station completely obscuring armor, noticeable weapons like Maelstrom that would otherwise be gameplay indicators, weapon type itself, race, the list goes on. In ESO I can be in 7/7 Heavy, a "tanky chonk", with a 2h Maul, but can *appear* in PvP or PvE combat as, say, a wizaened old wizard with a battered 2h Sword. You can't change the weapon Macrotype yet (thankfully), but even then you gain the ability to disguise core gameplay features - to use the Game Interactable to *lie* - and also gain the ability to be *lied to*. Going back, this would be a lot like if in Tic Tac Toe, you had the ability to be X, draw a circle somewhere, only to later reveal it was an X all along as you complete tic tac toe.

The other player would - probably rightfully - be pissed.

Now deeper than the superficial changes, however, we have the core of why a lot of PvP players don't actually get better: stat based combat - the PvP Holy Grail, apparently - is largely *invisible* in the game interactable, at least to everyone other than yourself. There are no post-death build screens. You can't check an enemy's items like in other games, say, a moba. You can't even, largely, tell when some procs are even active and wildly change those invisible stats (though some are nice and clearly visible,. like 7th Legion). What the enemy is doing, other than the specific moves they might be using, is largely invisible. You look the same if you have 1500 Weapon Damage or 7000. 15k Resists buffed is indistuinguishable from 40k. Aside from enemy health, you have basically nothing to go on.

What armor are there wearing? I don't know.
What sets are they using? I don't know.
Well what stats did they have? I don't know.
What weapon did they have on? Vaguely? Any two handed weapon. Other than that I don't know.
Did you do damage? Normally? Yes. Here? No.
Did they do damage? Yes.
What went wrong? They did a billion and I didn't.
So what can we do better?

I. Don't. Know.

And here's the stumbling block - this is where a large portion of otherwise would-be PvP players get stuck, get frustrated, and can't - as the community loves telling them to - "get good". "Getting good" is a process: it involves acknowledgment that we could have done better at things within our control , it involves acknowledgement that some things are out of our control, and it involves introspection regarding *WHAT WENT WRONG* and how to move forward and not let that go wrong again. But ESO is actually extremely BAD at letting players *know* what went wrong in PvP. They know they LOST. They know *that*, technically, went wrong - they missed their desired macro result. They didn't win. But other than that, they only know that -

the enemy guy did a billion and didn't take any damage at all
or
the enemy guy stayed a billion miles away spamming pulses and frags and streaks but never seems to actually run out of mana, even if I learned a little and interrupt Dark Deal
or
I died before the game even registered I was under attack
or
so on and so forth (usually the first entry, though)

The game itself doesn't give the player the TOOLS to understand what went wrong and how to improve from there, because we can't ever see what we were up against or why what happened, well...happened. Stat based combat, being largely invisible, is also therefore largely unintelligible. And if I can't even tell what's *happening* in the game, interactable or mechanical, how am I ever supposed to deduce what went wrong?

MEANWHILE, IN PROCTOPIA -

Procs are (typically) clearly telegraphed or showcased. They're flashy, they're big, they're glowy, they are OBVIOUSLY HAPPENING, but also largely interactable and predictable. Most importantly, however, they're *learnable and intelligible*, for all the same reasons PvE mechanics are. They clearly happen, a result occurs, the player links these two things, learns, and develops strategies based on what they've learned.

If I'm not behind the pillar when the bomb goes off, I die.
If we don't break people out of the stone form, I die.
If I stand in the laser, it hurts me.
If I stand in the poison cloud, it hurts me.
If i stand in the red circle when it "pops", it hurts me (and heals them???).

Be behind the pillar when the explosion happens
Break people out of stone form
Don't stand in the laser
Don't stand in the poison cloud
Don't stand in the red circle when it "pops"

Now PvP is intelligible and learnable. It's no longer, "oh well I guess that guy somehow had like 35k-40k resists? and they hit like they had thousands and thousands of weapon damage. And also kind of never ran out of resources? I'm not really sure what to do here, because I'm not really sure what happened.

Now its, "Hit him to make his armor create the circle, and retreat out of the circle. Their autos have summoned Birds. The Birds hurt me, but don't last forever. I should survive until the birds are gone, then make my move before they can summon them again.

Now its, "Their autos come with a laser? it's not the big red laser that hurts a lot, it's a purple one, but it seems to heal them a little? I should make sure to move away when the laser is up to break it, but I can also stay in it a little if i have to. It doesn't hurt nearly as badly as the red one does."

I could go on, but even when it's not nearly as cut and dried for learning patterns (say, Caluurions, Venom, etc), the procs tend to produce a play pattern to maximize them. The play pattern tends to be visible to all involved parties. The play pattern, since it is visible, is extremely learnable with effort. When people learn the patterns and react accordingly, it forces the proc user to change *their* patterns, flee, or try to ramp up aggression to break past the pattern the defender has learned.

I'm not saying all procs are inherently balanced - Vateshran Laser, looking at you here - but all nonstat procs are inherently more intelligible game design, more understandable by all involved parties, and, since we can all generally agree that all involved players at least knowing the rules to the game they're playing is a minimum threshold for competition, more competitive.

- The Golden Ages of PvP -

Now, I'm not totally oblivious to the idea that a lot of stat-based combat is part of a larger cluster of properties that people tend to remember fondly as being "better PvP', largely because it had a much wider "skill gap". And to some extent, I do empathize with this and find some small parts true - but I also find that the majority is very "American 1950s" Nuclear-Retro - that is, remembered fondly as a golden age by some, but in reality extremely awful for a much larger section of the affected population. Much of it comes from the desire to establish an older form of PvP Hierarchy that used to exist due to "skill" - that is, Master Players at the top, a few middlemen, and the majority of the playerbase at the bottom "where they belong".

Because, y'know. Potatoes belong in the dirt, right?

Something interesting about a LOT of these recollections though, when you listen to them, is that a good portion of them involve *the game breaking*, or at the bare minimum, situations that not only wouldn't be celebrated in other game systems, but probably wouldn't have even been *allowed*.

"Back when you could be good, you used to be able to kite 30 players around forever. See I had this build..."
"I had a build that would bomb whole groups with one Dawnbreaker. See I had this build..."
"I was permablock. I remember this one time I had like, 20 guys on me, and they couldn't get it. See I had this build..."

Usually around there they'll go into some amalgamation of arcane CP and gear combinations with stat allotments that allowed the fundamental rules of the game to change:

Resources were essentially unlimited, or block was basically free, or damage was far beyond typically available means, or - and this is the root of the most common stories - the build just (did everything*. Had too much damage, too much sustain, too much resist, too much mobility.

"I was unstoppable".

The problem here, of course, being that these are also incredible examples of

1 - not necessarily player mechanical skill, but deep-seeded building arcana exploiting weaknesses in the game mechanical, or
2 - things that actually probably should never have happened to begin with. Sure, kiting 40 players around until 30 get tired, separating 5 from that and mercing them with an Ult probably feels good to the player doing it - but it probably feels like trash for the 40 guys that can't seem to actually hit the guy, or are watching 40 players worth of incoming damage mitigated down to enough that a Vigor can keep up with it and the player infinitely sprints, rolls, class heals, and LoSs away.*

*Adding a bynote here, but stuff like this - "Youtubing" or endlessly LoSing/Rolling/Block Healing/exploiting the games ability to mitigate and escape - is often cited as a skil mechanical in nature, instead of the rather simple series of steps supported by the build and usually CP. That doesn't make the people doing it bad players by any stretch of the imagination, I'm just making a personal note that "in the tower / up the stairs / circle / circle / dawnbreaker / back in / up the stairs / heal / heal / block / drop down a level / circle / circle / dawnbreaker" probably doesn't require the Galaxy Brain people make it out to require. Once you've done it or seen it a few times it goes from "riveting excitement packed with raw talent" to "completely obnoxious use of mechanics and LoS meant to make people get bored of chasing you and picking off the stragglers". Back to our story, though.

In other words, the "Glory Days" were pretty glorious for a handful of people thanks to their skill in exploiting flaws in the game - and the fact that almost every other game in existence would regard these as mistakes to be fixed rather than choices to be celebrated firmly suggests they are flaws - and pretty obnoxious for the people that didn't have the build knowledge to deal with it or just didn't have the patience to wait until the YTers got tired of dodge rolling around in a circle.

Could you imagine if a modern game had a character that could 30v1 and come out ahead? Or a character that just literally can't die? A character that could take incoming fire from 20 people for ages, KILL SOME OF THAT 20, and then just turn and leave? Players would be screaming for blood. But here, that's just "the good ole days when you were allowed to be good and all these potatoes couldn't [bunch of whatever essentially meaning Do the Things We Do]. Because, of course, it's not fun when you have to deal with it, right? It's obnoxious. You *liked* 30v1ing, you *liked* feeling powerful in a potatofield. You *liked* being the one that could break the system rather than play within it. It felt GOOD, and you remember it making you FEEL GOOD.

Meanwhile, plenty of us just remember how obnoxious it was watching you infinitely roll or mist or whatever away despite 30 people running you down. In another game we could all have sticks and you would be dead, because THERE ARE THIRTY OF US AND ONE OF YOU.
"You're all so bad" At what? Am I not clicking the Uppercut button hard enough? Should I Fossilize you THROUGH cc immunity? What's the play here?

TL;DR the glory days definitely, unquestioningly involved skill - it's just the skill of making the game break rather than the skill of mechanical execution.

What, exactly, were you doing better than everyone? Did you hit the Uppercut button harder? Lean into your keyboard when LoSing for the 17th time because latency won't register hits in time to catch you? Craftily timing your Vigor in phase with the moon so it healed for more?

The reality is you weren't. Now sure, a lot of you have time in duels and probably ARE mechanically superior to most players. In combat you know when to block, when to roll, when to turtle, when to push. And I have no intention of taking that away from you. Plenty of people pining for this time WERE or ARE exceptional players of the game - but that's not enabling this nearly as much as it seems.

- The Mismatch -

Ultimately though, the majority of the proc arguments come down to that "skill gap" - or rather, it comes down to the fact that the things that you *want back for yourself* are widely available to anyone with an internet connection - and why that's bad. Surface we all want to feel like we're good at the things we do - and many of us are - so much of the pushback against the equalization of playfield attempts to assuage our egos: the procs are too good, and that's why I can't do the things I used to do. Any idiot can deal a billion damage now.

Except, of course, if you are so much more mechanically skilled or gifted - shouldn't you still be doing better? Or was more of that skill in building the car than racing it? Is the thing you want - to go back to that clear power separation between you and hordes of others - good for the game? Or just good for you? When you tell me procs are "ruining the game", do you actually mean "the game", or "my power fantasy being fulfilled within the game"?

Is this even about procs? Or is it that if everyone has even a fraction of the statistical capabilities you have had for years - that if that statistical gap shrinks and demands more of your mechanical gap - you won't be able to flex as much? That if everyone is a little more special, you'll be a little less special? Is that what you're afraid of becoming?

Just another potato?

In any event, thank you all for reading. These are some of my thoughts and views on the Proc/less discourse currently going around the ESO-o-sphere, and while I certainly haven't touched on everything I would have liked to (hidden information vs. known information mostly), I think this is more than enough to make at least most of my thoughts abundantly clear.

ZOS, not all of us hate procs. Some of us do like finally being able to see what's going on in the game, instead of just endlessly having to guess if the wizard with a broadsword in front of me is going to chew through my 35k resists and blocking in 2 seconds flat before teabagging me and riding away on a guar. Personally some procs need to be tuned way, way down, but ultimately proc based gameplay is a lot more intuitive, learnable, and good for the community at large than bashing our heads into the invisible wall of stat combat. It still has a place and should be viable and good, but the Procs Are Bad mentality is NOT universal among the playerbase. In fact,

Procs are Good, Actually.

...
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...CP PvP isn't, though.

I'd say there's some severe cognative dissonance with dizzy swing spammers complaining about true proc sets. However some proc sets are bad for the game. Anything that mimics what original camo hunter did is a detriment to PvP. Just like the fact out of all of the spammables dizzy swing hamfists them.

Rapid Strikes, Scythe, Snipe, Bash all are inferior and the moment they are on equal footing a horde comes out of the wood work to get them nerfed.

The reality is most people do not know what good PvP is, it's just a bias in their head.

MasterSpatula · March 2021

Except all the things you mention as being bad about the "Good Old Days" before the proc meta really became major problems during the proc meta, not before.

FirmamentOfStars · March 2021

I am not really surprised by those jabs numbers:

The stamplar has higher resistances, he has major evasion, he gets additional aoe mitigation after being stunned, meanwhile he has higher weapon damage for sure due to medium armor and higher base weapon damage of 2h weapons. Also you have the weakness against physical attacks added to that too. Additionally he probably fully penetrated you with ransack plus sharpened 2h maul in probably a setup like deadly (20% more damage on jabs), 7th legion, maybe balorgh monsterset and torc of tonal constancy, so he doesnt need to care much about regen and can go full ham damage. You on the other hand are using a sustain setup, not that much damage focussed (otherwise you would run spinners or stuhns with like spellpowercure for max damage).

I dont see that as evidence at all, it just states you had a bad matchup against one enemy.

Procs still are a bad thing and encourages people to not learn the game. Additionally it allows tanks to deal damage, which shouldnt be the case either.

artal · March 2021

Procs are not issue in this patch with all the healing. When you can have 25k rapid regen or vigor tooltip in nocp procs become just part of the game and not real problem as they were.
To be honest except azure setup which is still strong in group settings I would rather go for stat builds in almost all situations.
Procs right now are not better just different.
I do think vate weapons are bit to good but on other hand so is 17 dizzy and 20+dbos tooltip in nocp

xDeusEJRx · March 2021

The problem with procs is as the damage ceiling goes up for classes regularly, so do the proc's damage ceiling.
As stronger stat sets get introduced like new moons, naturally the player power will creep up and up and along with that new procs will be introduce to stay relevant in a higher damage meta. That's why procs keep getting buffed every patch. From procs losing their percent chance to activate(like overwhelming surge going from 33% proc chance to a guaranteed proc), to having essentially 0 downtime as most proc cooldowns are the same as their ability timer, then you get introduced to new sets that ramp up their damage the longer they're active (zaans and vates). Then the introduction of sets that further buff procs (Malacath). All these combined and you get stronger and stronger procs every patch, whereas normal max stat builds cannot keep up the same pace because they don't have the same leisure that proc builds do. Procs can keep a 100% uptime because their downtime is the same as the proc effect(like Pillar of Nirn with a 10 second effect and a 10 second cooldown), just imagine if max stat builds had all their dots auto refresh upon expiration. A lot of times you can't refresh your dots on max stat builds unless you're fighting strictly 1v1, but 1v1's rarely happen in Cyrodiil, it'll be group vs group or group vs player. When you stack multiple people using this same proc setup it forces the max stat player to play defensively/passively which means they aren't gonna refresh dots half of the time, they'll be turtling and playing passively until one of the guys in their group slips up and they can turn and burn them.
And then some proc builds just are completely uncounterable like magicka heavy attack builds (they get 3k tiks per second on their heavy attacks and most use shock staves which are harder to break line of sight on), heavy attacks ticking for 12k over 3 seconds which is immensely more powerful than a lot of ultimates and essentially all that takes is holding 1 button...

UntouchableHunter · March 2021

artal wrote: »

Procs are not issue in this patch with all the healing. When you can have 25k rapid regen or vigor tooltip in nocp procs become just part of the game and not real problem as they were.
To be honest except azure setup which is still strong in group settings I would rather go for stat builds in almost all situations.
Procs right now are not better just different.
I do think vate weapons are bit to good but on other hand so is 17 dizzy and 20+dbos tooltip in nocp

The procs tooltip is really lower right now.
And all the other skill are higher.
The new CP system also benefits your skills more then your procs.

Procs aren't broken anymore, they are just one more option as you said.

FirmamentOfStars · March 2021

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

artal wrote: »

Procs are not issue in this patch with all the healing. When you can have 25k rapid regen or vigor tooltip in nocp procs become just part of the game and not real problem as they were.
To be honest except azure setup which is still strong in group settings I would rather go for stat builds in almost all situations.
Procs right now are not better just different.
I do think vate weapons are bit to good but on other hand so is 17 dizzy and 20+dbos tooltip in nocp

The procs tooltip is really lower right now.
And all the other skill are higher.
The new CP system also benefits your skills more then your procs.

Procs aren't broken anymore, they are just one more option as you said.

You are right, the damage of procs is less of a problem than last patch. The issue is with stacking procs and being able to activate them all in one global cooldown. If you proc two sets with one skill on an enemy, he will use 3 GCDs for applying same damage if using stat sets. Meaning procs allow more usage of spamables and longer offensive windows. Therefore You still have advantages over stat builds.

Goregrinder · March 2021

Vermintide wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

Well, now that I've had time to read this post fully, I will just say I agree in general, although this one part stuck out at me.

Is this even about procs? Or is it that if everyone has even a fraction of the statistical capabilities you have had for years - that if that statistical gap shrinks and demands more of your mechanical gap - you won't be able to flex as much? That if everyone is a little more special, you'll be a little less special? Is that what you're afraid of becoming?

This really cuts to the bone of the issue. After all, why are we here, playing PVP in this game? Why not in League of Legends, Destiny, or Call of Duty? It comes down to what you view as the very nature of competition. The execution of raw talent, on an equal playing field.

This game doesn't offer that, and it never has. It doesn't intend to. It has a level of internal balance to stop things getting too out of hand But the ability to build your character for advantage is, it's fair to say, an intended feature in this game.

Let's look at Guild Wars 2. A very interesting game in my opinion, and the one I cut my teeth on MMO PVP in. There's a reason for that: Your PVP "build" was limited, in the interests of maintaining a fair and level playing field. It was pure mechanical execution. Your condi thief might have provoked rage and ire on the forums because it was OP, but it was exactly the same condi thief everyone else had access to. There was no unfair statistical advantage over other players just because you spent another few weeks grinding for that one OP item set.

I would suggest you are correct that a lot of the players concerned with issues like this do indeed fear the fact that without their broken builds, they'd simply suck. But at the same time, the ability to build is a fun part of the game. It's what provides a lasting appeal.

I am much better at games like COD or Battlefield, where the skill is in reaction times and situational awareness. I'd bet most of the high level ESO PVPers absolutely suck at those games and I could kick their asses. But there's a reason I do like playing this game too, even if I'm not as good at it, and the system isn't nearly as fair. I like the depth, progression, and customisation.

The challenge, is finding a way to balance those elements against each other. Sadly, ZOS don't seem interested in doing that. Many of the proc sets are "fair" in my mind, some of them are a little overtuned, but on the whole they are entirely possible to counter. But you can's say the same of items like Malacath or some of the arena weapons, which essentially just give you a large, free damage boost with zero downside. There's nothing an enemy player can do to counteract your free extra damage, other than go and grind until he has the same thing.

And therein lies the rub. Are you willing to go and grind until you have the same thing, or is it time to simply cancel your sub and play a game that's more interested in fair competition?

That is correct, we are here for Player vs Player, not ZOS vs ZOS. As of right now if someone has high resists I can directly counter that by running abilities on my build that remove enemy resists, or I can stack penetration nullifying their resists. I can also run a purge to directly counter DoTs. I can run snares to directly counter movement speed abilities. Interrupts directly counter spell casting, so on and so forth.

What can I slot on my bars right now, or what gear sets can I wear currently in game that will shut off my enemy's procs for a few moments much like how purge can shut off enemy dots?

Well like, you can just dodge roll most of them.

Yes, you can hard counter general damage with dodge roll. But that is only a soft counter to procs. Avoiding the damage from procs is not the same as disabling the proc itself. Dodging also doesn't stop proc heals.