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Bretons could use a racial passive buff
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dwig✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »@dwig I see what you’re saying about additional cost reduction having more impact, but I believe you get more benefit from stacking other methods of sustain on top of cost reduction.
Here’s an example, a build has Magicka drain of 2100 mag/s and is deciding between race changing to Breton or wearing Grundwulf. Grund gives a flat 140 Magicka/s, while Breton’s 7% cost reduction would save 0.07 x 2100 = 147 Magicka/s. So in this case the cost reduction is better (ignoring the fact that Breton gets some recovery too for simplicity).
Now this same build slots 7 Light Armor to receive 14% cost reduction, resulting in their Magicka drain dropping to 1806 mag/s. Again they want to choose between Grundwulf’s 140 mag/s or Breton’s 7% cost reduction. Now 0.07 x 1806 = 126 mag/s, so the cost reduction is significantly worse than the flat restore from Grundwulf.
I believe this is what people are referring to when they say additional cost reduction has diminishing returns. It results in lower mag/s, and is quickly outclassed by other sources of sustain (that aren’t multiplicative). Maybe in a purely mathematical definition this would be viewed as flat sustain getting increasing returns at a higher rate than cost reduction, when stacking cost reduction. Relative to other options, it’s easier to just call cost reduction diminishing IMO. The more sources you have, the less each one affects Magicka/s.
I think the appropriate terminology would be "opportunity cost" rather than diminishing returns. If you stack cost reduction then you DO get more benefits per % reduction, but at the same time it is true that you are not stacking something else that may be more beneficial.0 -
Vizirith✭✭✭✭BlissfulDelusions wrote: »BlissfulDelusions wrote: »
If adding more cost redux has diminishing returns, then I think adding more recovery to them would be better. I know some of you guys disagree with me, that's cool, but I think it would be most balanced to make Bretons a magicka counter to the new iteration of Imperials.
If Bretons and Imperials get 2k health each, as well as 2k of magicka or stamina, and a 6% overall skill redux cost?
That's balanced, and lore-wise, Bretons would still be more apt as spellcasters.
It may be balanced as opposed to Imperials, and create a dichotomy between Imperial = Stamina and Breton = Magicka.
However, in order to grant Breton 2K Health, they would likely end up losing the Spell Resistance, which would be contrary to the lore of the race. In lore, Bretons are a combination of the magickal prowess of their elven ancestors and the hardiness of their mannish ancestors. This has nearly always resulted in a gain to the ability to resist damage from or shrug off Magicka based attacks.
IMO, Bretons are fairly fine where they are, with their passives reflecting their lore pretty well within the confines of ESO's system (as opposed to the single player games).
BUT. If there were any changes that could be made to the Breton passives, it would be to better reflect the influence of the Willpower attribute from previous games. In this change, the Spell Resist passive would no longer provide situational extra resists, but remain at a flat static gain. Then, Bretons would gain either a slight Max Stamina Bonus or a slight Stamina Recovery Bonus (reflecting the influence of Willpower on Fatigue).BlissfulDelusions wrote: »I think Bretons are fine. 2310 sp resists, and doubled when burned, chilled, or concussed makes up for some of the survivability 2k health translates to. 7% mag cost reduction and 130 mag recovery does still make it a very good option for magicka roles compared to the imperial 6% overall cost reduction. Not to mention that cost reduction % modifiers lose valua the more you have, bretons also having 130 mag recovery will go up with light armor, class passives and buffs.
I can see Imperial being in a better spot than bretons in a heavy armor mag build because HA has no diminshing returns on overall cost reduction, unlike being in more light armor with light armor cost reduction for break free, sprint and roll dodge.
Thing is, the upcoming patch also makes it so that the status effects won't be applied to you by pve mobs unless specified. That means that the double resistance to status effects will be a pvp effect, at best.
How exactly does 2310 spell resistance match up against 2k health? Genuine question.Olupajmibanan wrote: »
I can see Imperial being in a better spot than bretons in a heavy armor mag build because HA has no diminshing returns on overall cost reduction, unlike being in more light armor with light armor cost reduction for break free, sprint and roll dodge.
Slightly off topic, but the returns to more cost reduction are INCREASING, not decreasing. Remember, what matters is the number of times you can cast before you run out of mana/stam or whatever.
Let say you can cast an ability 100 times without any cost reduction. Apply a 4% reduction and you can cast it 100/0.96 = 104.16 times (basically 4 extra times, which is probably what you would have guessed without the math).
Now apply another 4% cost reduction. 104.16/0.96 = 108.5 (notice that you also get for more here, but its a slightly larger remainder).
One more 4%. 108.5/0.96 = 113.02 (which means you get FIVE extra casts this time). Increasing returns, not diminishing returns.
That's why ZoS is so stingy with cost reduction.
Usual ranged spammable cost is 2700.
Apply 7 light pieces (new meta for a DD after armor changes). That reduces the FP cost to 2322 ( 2700 * ( 1 - 7 * 0,02 )).
Apply Breton passive on top of Light armor passive. That reduces the cost to 2159 ( 2322 * ( 1 - 0,07 )).
First 14% of magicka cost reduction caused flat cost reduction of 378 (or every 1% of cost reduction from light armor passive reduced the cost by 27).
Next 7% of magicka cost reduction caused another flat cost reduction of 163 (or every 1% of cost reduction from Breton reduced the cost by 23,285).
And this is certainly diminishing returns, the more % cost reduction you bring, the less flat cost reduction you will actually see.
If adding more cost redux has diminishing returns, then I think adding more recovery to them would be better. I know some of you guys disagree with me, that's cool, but I think it would be most balanced to make Bretons a magicka counter to the new iteration of Imperials.
If Bretons and Imperials get 2k health each, as well as 2k of magicka or stamina, and a 6% overall skill redux cost?
That's balanced, and lore-wise, Bretons would still be more apt as spellcasters.
Both health and resists are functionally both survivability mechanics. Let's say there is an incoming 5k magicka dmg hit. A breton would take 4650 dmg (presuming 0 resist and are affected by a magic status effect doubling resist passive). An Imperial would take 5000 dmg but have 2k more health, allowing you to take more damage. They are not really competitive comparatively and resists scale worse as there are no real resist % bonuses compared to health. They simply are both survival based passives.
You don't really want to just start making races perfectly offset each other. Then it just gets boring. Adding more recovery would be too powerful, wood elves only get 258 which is basically 2x what bretons get but no 7% stam cost reduction.
I hear you both, and I think if, we are to stay lorefriendly by sticking with the resists, then it would be fair to at least give Bretons higher spell resistance, or higher magicka. Personally I would prefer a "specializations" system where you have one racial passive for each race (faster swimming for Argonians, Nords resistant to cold, Bretons resistant to spells etc), and a set of passives to choose from, but that's just a pipedream. Still, I don't think the current magic resistance that the Bretons have weighs well against the 2k health that the Imperials get, and I think that 7% magicka redux vs 6% all skill redux is rather unbalanced. If the magicka redux was higher, then we would be talking, but just 1% more isn't all that great, imo, when it only affects one attribute.
But it's not just 7% mag cost reduction vs 6% all skill reduction is it? You didn't count the 130 mag recovery at all.
Presuming 7 Light, no buffs/gear bonuses or cp, each races true passives:
IMPERIAL
7% - block cost
5% - dodge cost
4% - break free
5% - dodge cost
5% mag cost
BRETON
166 mag recovery
6% mag cost
While I do understand this is only for light, the mag recovery will only go up with buffs, while the cost reductions will get less potent.Edited by Vizirith on 16 February 2021 16:460 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BlissfulDelusions wrote: »BlissfulDelusions wrote: »
If adding more cost redux has diminishing returns, then I think adding more recovery to them would be better. I know some of you guys disagree with me, that's cool, but I think it would be most balanced to make Bretons a magicka counter to the new iteration of Imperials.
If Bretons and Imperials get 2k health each, as well as 2k of magicka or stamina, and a 6% overall skill redux cost?
That's balanced, and lore-wise, Bretons would still be more apt as spellcasters.
It may be balanced as opposed to Imperials, and create a dichotomy between Imperial = Stamina and Breton = Magicka.
However, in order to grant Breton 2K Health, they would likely end up losing the Spell Resistance, which would be contrary to the lore of the race. In lore, Bretons are a combination of the magickal prowess of their elven ancestors and the hardiness of their mannish ancestors. This has nearly always resulted in a gain to the ability to resist damage from or shrug off Magicka based attacks.
IMO, Bretons are fairly fine where they are, with their passives reflecting their lore pretty well within the confines of ESO's system (as opposed to the single player games).
BUT. If there were any changes that could be made to the Breton passives, it would be to better reflect the influence of the Willpower attribute from previous games. In this change, the Spell Resist passive would no longer provide situational extra resists, but remain at a flat static gain. Then, Bretons would gain either a slight Max Stamina Bonus or a slight Stamina Recovery Bonus (reflecting the influence of Willpower on Fatigue).BlissfulDelusions wrote: »I think Bretons are fine. 2310 sp resists, and doubled when burned, chilled, or concussed makes up for some of the survivability 2k health translates to. 7% mag cost reduction and 130 mag recovery does still make it a very good option for magicka roles compared to the imperial 6% overall cost reduction. Not to mention that cost reduction % modifiers lose valua the more you have, bretons also having 130 mag recovery will go up with light armor, class passives and buffs.
I can see Imperial being in a better spot than bretons in a heavy armor mag build because HA has no diminshing returns on overall cost reduction, unlike being in more light armor with light armor cost reduction for break free, sprint and roll dodge.
Thing is, the upcoming patch also makes it so that the status effects won't be applied to you by pve mobs unless specified. That means that the double resistance to status effects will be a pvp effect, at best.
How exactly does 2310 spell resistance match up against 2k health? Genuine question.Olupajmibanan wrote: »
I can see Imperial being in a better spot than bretons in a heavy armor mag build because HA has no diminshing returns on overall cost reduction, unlike being in more light armor with light armor cost reduction for break free, sprint and roll dodge.
Slightly off topic, but the returns to more cost reduction are INCREASING, not decreasing. Remember, what matters is the number of times you can cast before you run out of mana/stam or whatever.
Let say you can cast an ability 100 times without any cost reduction. Apply a 4% reduction and you can cast it 100/0.96 = 104.16 times (basically 4 extra times, which is probably what you would have guessed without the math).
Now apply another 4% cost reduction. 104.16/0.96 = 108.5 (notice that you also get for more here, but its a slightly larger remainder).
One more 4%. 108.5/0.96 = 113.02 (which means you get FIVE extra casts this time). Increasing returns, not diminishing returns.
That's why ZoS is so stingy with cost reduction.
Usual ranged spammable cost is 2700.
Apply 7 light pieces (new meta for a DD after armor changes). That reduces the FP cost to 2322 ( 2700 * ( 1 - 7 * 0,02 )).
Apply Breton passive on top of Light armor passive. That reduces the cost to 2159 ( 2322 * ( 1 - 0,07 )).
First 14% of magicka cost reduction caused flat cost reduction of 378 (or every 1% of cost reduction from light armor passive reduced the cost by 27).
Next 7% of magicka cost reduction caused another flat cost reduction of 163 (or every 1% of cost reduction from Breton reduced the cost by 23,285).
And this is certainly diminishing returns, the more % cost reduction you bring, the less flat cost reduction you will actually see.
If adding more cost redux has diminishing returns, then I think adding more recovery to them would be better. I know some of you guys disagree with me, that's cool, but I think it would be most balanced to make Bretons a magicka counter to the new iteration of Imperials.
If Bretons and Imperials get 2k health each, as well as 2k of magicka or stamina, and a 6% overall skill redux cost?
That's balanced, and lore-wise, Bretons would still be more apt as spellcasters.
Both health and resists are functionally both survivability mechanics. Let's say there is an incoming 5k magicka dmg hit. A breton would take 4650 dmg (presuming 0 resist and are affected by a magic status effect doubling resist passive). An Imperial would take 5000 dmg but have 2k more health, allowing you to take more damage. They are not really competitive comparatively and resists scale worse as there are no real resist % bonuses compared to health. They simply are both survival based passives.
You don't really want to just start making races perfectly offset each other. Then it just gets boring. Adding more recovery would be too powerful, wood elves only get 258 which is basically 2x what bretons get but no 7% stam cost reduction.
I hear you both, and I think if, we are to stay lorefriendly by sticking with the resists, then it would be fair to at least give Bretons higher spell resistance, or higher magicka. Personally I would prefer a "specializations" system where you have one racial passive for each race (faster swimming for Argonians, Nords resistant to cold, Bretons resistant to spells etc), and a set of passives to choose from, but that's just a pipedream. Still, I don't think the current magic resistance that the Bretons have weighs well against the 2k health that the Imperials get, and I think that 7% magicka redux vs 6% all skill redux is rather unbalanced. If the magicka redux was higher, then we would be talking, but just 1% more isn't all that great, imo, when it only affects one attribute.
But it's not just 7% mag cost reduction vs 6% all skill reduction is it? You didn't count the 130 mag recovery at all.
Presuming 7 Light, no buffs/gear bonuses or cp, each races true passives:
IMPERIAL
7% - block cost
5% - dodge cost
4% - break free
5% - dodge cost
5% mag cost
BRETON
166 mag recovery
6% mag cost
While I do understand this is only for light, the mag recovery will only go up with buffs, while the cost reductions will get less potent.
True, the mag recovery does help with sustain. It typically isn’t considered when comparing the 7% cost reduction because it’s bundled with the 2310 Spell Resistance and that is too weak to stand alone as a passive (can’t even get the doubles effect in PVE anymore since random status effect procs from NPCs are being removed).
When comparing all of the racial bonuses that 100-130 mag recovery is definitely important. Also don’t forget that Imperial has 6% ultimate cost reduction. I really like the new Imperial, and think that level of power should be the standard for all races. IMO Dunmer, Orc and Nord are also all in a good spot (maybe Khajiit and Bosmer too, I need to do more testing there). Argonian is really weak now, and both Breton and Redguard seem to be lacking something.Edited by WrathOfInnos on 16 February 2021 17:112 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Regeneration won't change the basic conclusion that cost reduction has increasing returns.
It will. Let's assume 1600 final mag recovery (after scaling) within your 36k magicka example and my 2700 cost Force Pulse.
0 light, no Breton
2700 magicka drain per second
800 magicka gain per second
1900 total magicka drain per second, you will be OOM, unable to cast another FP in 18 seconds.
7 light, no Breton
2322 magicka drain per second
800 magicka gain per second
1522 total magicka drain per second, you will be OOM, unable to cast another FP in 23 seconds.
7 light, Breton without Spell Attunement
2159 magicka drain per second
800 magicka gain per second
1359 total magicka drain per second, you will be OOM, unable to cast another FP in 26 seconds.
By default, in this scenario you have "fuel" for 18 seconds (or 18 FP casts in your language). 7 light pieces will give you "fuel" for 5 more seconds (5 more FPs). Adding Breton on top of that will give you "fuel" for another 3 more seconds (3 more FPs). Diminishing returns.
You missed the recovery light armor provides
I did not. I said let's assume 1600 mag recovery after scaling meaning that it already incorporates Major Intellect, Minor Intellect and Light Armor passive.Edited by Olupajmibanan on 16 February 2021 18:330 -
QuebraRegra✭✭✭✭✭
✭xAlucardx92 wrote: »BlissfulDelusions wrote: »Or, alternatively, can the magicka recovery buff of Spell Attunement be increased from 130 to 500, or even 400?
Pls make my racial the best in the game......
lets talk about woodelves.....1 -
Evil_Rurouni✭✭✭Breton main here.
Looks to me that the imperial's slightly overbuffed, rather than the Breton being slightly underpowered.
Its better to slightly nerf the Imperial than slightly buff the Breton because buffing Breton would increase class based power creep.
Any buffs recieved by the top half inceases the gap between top and bottom, and the bottom races are the ones that need help, not us.
Lower Imperials to match Bretons then give Argonians and Redguards buffs to bring them up to those same standards.
Redguard in particular sticks out in this comparison because its supposed to be the stamina equivilant of breton, but it really isn't.
Its weapon skill cost passive just doesn't measure up.
Getting 8% cost reduction of maybe 3 slotted skills or getting 7% cost reduction on all 10 of your slotted skills?
Working out which is better is a no-brainer.Edited by Evil_Rurouni on 17 February 2021 00:211 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In this thread: people forgetting that the Imperial change actually came at the expense of their prior passive.
The old Red Diamond provided 333 return for all stats every 5 seconds if you were dealing damage - yielding ~133 regen-equivalent or nearly ~400 combined resource regeneration.
That no longer exists and the loss of that old passive must be taken into account when evaluating the new version of Red Diamond.
Would I rather have 6% cost reduction on everything than ~400 resource regeneration? Yes. But it's not nearly as large of a buff when you take into account what was traded away to make room for it.
On the subject of Bretons: Double their Spell Resistance passive and call it a day.1 -
Kurat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Breton is the last race that needs buffing lmao. Its already BiS for dps and healer.
Argonian says hi
3 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Breton is the last race that needs buffing lmao. Its already BiS for dps and healer.
Argonian says hi
Indeed, seeing the Nords and Bretons complaining has me sitting here like the Pikachu meme.
Argonians and Redguards needs buffs first and foremost. Everyone else can queue up after them.6 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Regeneration won't change the basic conclusion that cost reduction has increasing returns.
It will. Let's assume 1600 final mag recovery (after scaling) within your 36k magicka example and my 2700 cost Force Pulse.
0 light, no Breton
2700 magicka drain per second
800 magicka gain per second
1900 total magicka drain per second, you will be OOM, unable to cast another FP in 18 seconds.
7 light, no Breton
2322 magicka drain per second
800 magicka gain per second
1522 total magicka drain per second, you will be OOM, unable to cast another FP in 23 seconds.
7 light, Breton without Spell Attunement
2159 magicka drain per second
800 magicka gain per second
1359 total magicka drain per second, you will be OOM, unable to cast another FP in 26 seconds.
By default, in this scenario you have "fuel" for 18 seconds (or 18 FP casts in your language). 7 light pieces will give you "fuel" for 5 more seconds (5 more FPs). Adding Breton on top of that will give you "fuel" for another 3 more seconds (3 more FPs). Diminishing returns.
You missed the recovery light armor provides
I did not. I said let's assume 1600 mag recovery after scaling meaning that it already incorporates Major Intellect, Minor Intellect and Light Armor passive.
Yes you did, you have the same recovery numbers with 7 light and 0 light.
Your 0 light example will have to be 670.5 mag per second (1600/1.73*1.45/2) 1+.3 major intellect + .15 minor intellect + .28 7 light armor = 1.73Edited by JobooAGS on 17 February 2021 01:250 -
dwig✭✭✭Breton is the last race that needs buffing lmao. Its already BiS for dps and healer.
Argonian says hi
I agree that Argonian (and Redguard) need help, but Breton is hardly BiS for dps. Altmer, Dunmer, and (probably) Khajiit are all better mag dps.Edited by dwig on 17 February 2021 02:348 -
Simon_111✭✭I agree that Argonian (and Redguard) need help, but Breton is hardly BiS for dps. Altmer, Dunmer, and (probably) Khajiit are all better mag dps.
Yes breton is not BiS for dps, but they get a lot more sustain in return. I'd say the race is in a decent spot atm, not the best but far from the worst.
DK main, 46k+ achievement points.1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Yep.Breton is the last race that needs buffing lmao. Its already BiS for dps and healer.
Argonian says hi
It is weird that they buffed Breton's sustain and nerfed Argonian's sustain by a whopping 30%... (or even more since it is 3x stat sustain nerf by 30% each).
Idk what kind of math is behind this, but it is definitely not any kind of logic, or common sense...Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on 17 February 2021 13:025 -
Sylas_Orin✭✭✭✭✭To all those saying "MUH RACE NEEDS A BUFF INSTEAD SCREW U"
No, I'm not saying Wood Elves and Argonians don't need a buff. If any of you looked at my previous suggestion, I clearly said I was in favor of adding a specializations system, instead.BlissfulDelusions wrote: »Personally I would prefer a "specializations" system where you have one racial passive for each race (faster swimming for Argonians, Nords resistant to cold, Bretons resistant to spells etc), and a set of passives to choose from, but that's just a pipedream. Still, I don't think the current magic resistance that the Bretons have weighs well against the 2k health that the Imperials get, and I think that 7% magicka redux vs 6% all skill redux is rather unbalanced. If the magicka redux was higher, then we would be talking, but just 1% more isn't all that great, imo, when it only affects one attribute.
By all means, buff other races, too. All I am saying is that I think Imperials got overbuffed with the 6% overall cost reduction. And I mean sure, I main a Breton, so I am biased, but I think the Imperial buff is imbalanced.Edited by Sylas_Orin on 20 February 2021 19:24Former completionist with all achievements unlocked up until Update 29 (Flames of Ambition). Avid RPer, writer, and former Breton lover. Then Legacy of the Bretons was released and I realized just how boring and uninspired the Bretons are according to the writers.1 -
QuebraRegra✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
Yep.Breton is the last race that needs buffing lmao. Its already BiS for dps and healer.
Argonian says hi
It is weird that they buffed Breton's sustain and nerfed Argonian's sustain by a whopping 30%... (or even more since it is 3x stat sustain nerf by 30% each).
Idk what kind of math is behind this, but it is definitely not any kind of logic, or common sense...
You know what would be nice.. an AMA with the team for them to discuss the logic they applied when considering these changes..1 -
QuebraRegra✭✭✭✭✭
✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Breton is the last race that needs buffing lmao. Its already BiS for dps and healer.
Argonian says hi
Indeed, seeing the Nords and Bretons complaining has me sitting here like the Pikachu meme.
Argonians and Redguards needs buffs first and foremost. Everyone else can queue up after them.
you can have yours when my BOSMER gets my stealth back... a factor not creating imbalance for anyone.0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The reasons you list, meaning the change to Imperials, is not a reason to buff Breton. The recovery bonus they have is huge. It might not look that much and the new CP system doesn't have a 14% boost to magicka recovery anymore, but you still get a ton of bonus magicka recovery from wearing light armor and Mage's Guild passives.
Imperials got changed. Their sustain did not get buffed by a noticeable amount, but their viability as tanks has gone up thanks to cheaper ult, block, breakfree and dodgeroll cost. That's all that changed about them. Bretons don't need compensation for that.
What Bretons do need compensation for is that base health has been raised like crazy and people can now run parse food in trials and not lose much survivability for it, meaning that it is now even easier for Dunmer and Altmer to reach sustain levels previously only known to Bretons. If everyone can sustain well now, Breton passives become undesireable because once you have enough sustain, having more sustain than that does not translate to more damage anymore. That's why they will fall behind.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.2 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Evil_Rurouni wrote: »Breton main here.
Looks to me that the imperial's slightly overbuffed, rather than the Breton being slightly underpowered.
Its better to slightly nerf the Imperial than slightly buff the Breton because buffing Breton would increase class based power creep.
Any buffs recieved by the top half inceases the gap between top and bottom, and the bottom races are the ones that need help, not us.
Lower Imperials to match Bretons then give Argonians and Redguards buffs to bring them up to those same standards.
Redguard in particular sticks out in this comparison because its supposed to be the stamina equivilant of breton, but it really isn't.
Its weapon skill cost passive just doesn't measure up.
Getting 8% cost reduction of maybe 3 slotted skills or getting 7% cost reduction on all 10 of your slotted skills?
Working out which is better is a no-brainer.
@Evil_Rurouni You are comparing the wrong passives here for Redguards vs Bretons. The 8% cost reduction to weapon abilities is not the thing that is supposed to rival the 7% cost reduction to all magicka. It's the 1050 stamina that Redguards restore when dealing damage.
That being said, stamina skills are also cheaper in general than magicka skills, so Breton sustain is more useful than Redguard sustain, which is wasted.
As a Breton next patch I would look into using green max magicka food to stay viable while everyone else is using parse food. That should help keep your damage high.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.2 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Since racials are based on ZOS's set standards, this is fairly easy to compare objectively:
1-4 piece set effects = 1 point (129 weapon/spell damage, 129 stam/hp/mag regen, 1206 hp, 1096 magicka/stamina, etc, you get the idea).
5 piece set effects are often considered to be 2.325x stronger than a 1-4 piece bonus when they are completely static (no proc condition). For examples of this, please see Hundings Rage (weapon damage), Spriggan (penetration), etc or more importantly to Imperial vs Breton, Armor of the Seducer and Battlefield Acrobat.
Breton Total Set Weight = 5.608:- 2k magicka = 1.825
- 130 magicka regen = 1
- -7% cost reduction = 1.628 (see spoiler below for math based on Armor of Seducer)
- 2310 spell resistance = 0.77 (1487 armor from 1pc is spell and physical so this is just above half of that for 0.77 as it's only spell resistance)
- +2310 spell resistance proc = 0.385 (This is subject to opinion, due to it being a proc for the same value of spell resistance, I feel half is more than fair. Context is key, in pvp against magicka characters, this is probably closer to 70-80% the value while maybe 30-50% the value in pve. It can't be any more than 0.77 at most.)
Imperial Total Set Weight = 5.808:- 2k hp = 1.658
- 2k stamina = 1.825
- -6% cost reduction to everything = 2.325 (exact same bonus as 5pc Battlefield Acrobat)
So.... they're literally objectively balanced with a small difference of 0.2 in favor of Imperial, but this is only because I can't properly quantify the double spell resistance on Breton since it's a matter of opinion on how often that procs. If lets say I was less generous and it was equal to 0.585 (75% value of the base resistance) then both Imperial and Breton would have the exact same racial power at 5.808.
If you agree with my generous 50% power conclusion to the double spell resistance, then the only necessary buff Breton's would require is 1 of a few things to add that missing 0.2 power:- 155 magicka regen instead of 130 (+0.2)
- -8% magicka cost reduction instead of -7% (+0.24)
- This is more of a personal opinion, but: 1200 armor that can double on any status effect (more versatile, combined power of 1.3 to 1.6 instead of 1.0 to 1.2 from the current spell resistance, this would give the necessary bump of about +0.2)
Math for Breton cost reduction:- Armor of the Seducer 5 pc bonus = -10% magicka cost reduction. This should follow the 2.325x rule so..
- 10/2.325 = -4.3%
- Take 4.3% and see how many times it fits into the 7% from Breton:
- 7/4.3 = 1.628
Edited by MashmalloMan on 21 February 2021 00:394 -
Evil_Rurouni✭✭✭Evil_Rurouni wrote: »Breton main here.
Looks to me that the imperial's slightly overbuffed, rather than the Breton being slightly underpowered.
Its better to slightly nerf the Imperial than slightly buff the Breton because buffing Breton would increase class based power creep.
Any buffs recieved by the top half inceases the gap between top and bottom, and the bottom races are the ones that need help, not us.
Lower Imperials to match Bretons then give Argonians and Redguards buffs to bring them up to those same standards.
Redguard in particular sticks out in this comparison because its supposed to be the stamina equivilant of breton, but it really isn't.
Its weapon skill cost passive just doesn't measure up.
Getting 8% cost reduction of maybe 3 slotted skills or getting 7% cost reduction on all 10 of your slotted skills?
Working out which is better is a no-brainer.
@Evil_Rurouni You are comparing the wrong passives here for Redguards vs Bretons. The 8% cost reduction to weapon abilities is not the thing that is supposed to rival the 7% cost reduction to all magicka. It's the 1050 stamina that Redguards restore when dealing damage.
That being said, stamina skills are also cheaper in general than magicka skills, so Breton sustain is more useful than Redguard sustain, which is wasted.
As a Breton next patch I would look into using green max magicka food to stay viable while everyone else is using parse food. That should help keep your damage high.
If you're talking about "Adrenaline rush 3", its 950 stam every 5 seconds, not 1050.
And its only off direct damage, not all damage.
That means it delivers an absolute maximum of 190 stam per second, and in practice it'll be significantly less due to not hitting 100% uptime in combat and not giving any recovery at all between combat encounters.
That makes it the mirror to Bretons 100 mag per second from "Spell attunement 3".
Redguard gets a bit more resources per second if doing direct damage consistantly, but doesn't get resistances thrown in.
Gift of magnus 3 mirrors "Conditioning 3" , so that leaves "magika mastery 3" as the comparison for "martial training 3"
The only bonus redguard has in that comparison beyond cost reduction is the 15% snare reduction, which is such a bad joke in practice that people forget it exists.
So no @Ratzkifal , I'm not "comparing the wrong passives"
And yes, I logged in to my both breton and my redguard to compare their actual ingame passives.
0 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Evil_Rurouni wrote: »Evil_Rurouni wrote: »Breton main here.
Looks to me that the imperial's slightly overbuffed, rather than the Breton being slightly underpowered.
Its better to slightly nerf the Imperial than slightly buff the Breton because buffing Breton would increase class based power creep.
Any buffs recieved by the top half inceases the gap between top and bottom, and the bottom races are the ones that need help, not us.
Lower Imperials to match Bretons then give Argonians and Redguards buffs to bring them up to those same standards.
Redguard in particular sticks out in this comparison because its supposed to be the stamina equivilant of breton, but it really isn't.
Its weapon skill cost passive just doesn't measure up.
Getting 8% cost reduction of maybe 3 slotted skills or getting 7% cost reduction on all 10 of your slotted skills?
Working out which is better is a no-brainer.
@Evil_Rurouni You are comparing the wrong passives here for Redguards vs Bretons. The 8% cost reduction to weapon abilities is not the thing that is supposed to rival the 7% cost reduction to all magicka. It's the 1050 stamina that Redguards restore when dealing damage.
That being said, stamina skills are also cheaper in general than magicka skills, so Breton sustain is more useful than Redguard sustain, which is wasted.
As a Breton next patch I would look into using green max magicka food to stay viable while everyone else is using parse food. That should help keep your damage high.
If you're talking about "Adrenaline rush 3", its 950 stam every 5 seconds, not 1050.
And its only off direct damage, not all damage.
That means it delivers an absolute maximum of 190 stam per second, and in practice it'll be significantly less due to not hitting 100% uptime in combat and not giving any recovery at all between combat encounters.
That makes it the mirror to Bretons 100 mag per second from "Spell attunement 3".
Redguard gets a bit more resources per second if doing direct damage consistantly, but doesn't get resistances thrown in.
Gift of magnus 3 mirrors "Conditioning 3" , so that leaves "magika mastery 3" as the comparison for "martial training 3"
The only bonus redguard has in that comparison beyond cost reduction is the 15% snare reduction, which is such a bad joke in practice that people forget it exists.
So no @Ratzkifal , I'm not "comparing the wrong passives"
And yes, I logged in to my both breton and my redguard to compare their actual ingame passives.
Check the original PTS notes again, it's not 1050, but 1005, they're right about all damage:Redguard
Adrenaline Rush:- Increased the Stamina restored from this passive to 1005, up from 950.
- This passive now procs on any damage done, rather than Direct Damage.
Also.. not disagreeing here, Redguards are absolute garbage since the changes 2 years ago.Edited by MashmalloMan on 21 February 2021 01:424 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Evil_Rurouni wrote: »Evil_Rurouni wrote: »Breton main here.
Looks to me that the imperial's slightly overbuffed, rather than the Breton being slightly underpowered.
Its better to slightly nerf the Imperial than slightly buff the Breton because buffing Breton would increase class based power creep.
Any buffs recieved by the top half inceases the gap between top and bottom, and the bottom races are the ones that need help, not us.
Lower Imperials to match Bretons then give Argonians and Redguards buffs to bring them up to those same standards.
Redguard in particular sticks out in this comparison because its supposed to be the stamina equivilant of breton, but it really isn't.
Its weapon skill cost passive just doesn't measure up.
Getting 8% cost reduction of maybe 3 slotted skills or getting 7% cost reduction on all 10 of your slotted skills?
Working out which is better is a no-brainer.
@Evil_Rurouni You are comparing the wrong passives here for Redguards vs Bretons. The 8% cost reduction to weapon abilities is not the thing that is supposed to rival the 7% cost reduction to all magicka. It's the 1050 stamina that Redguards restore when dealing damage.
That being said, stamina skills are also cheaper in general than magicka skills, so Breton sustain is more useful than Redguard sustain, which is wasted.
As a Breton next patch I would look into using green max magicka food to stay viable while everyone else is using parse food. That should help keep your damage high.
If you're talking about "Adrenaline rush 3", its 950 stam every 5 seconds, not 1050.
And its only off direct damage, not all damage.
That means it delivers an absolute maximum of 190 stam per second, and in practice it'll be significantly less due to not hitting 100% uptime in combat and not giving any recovery at all between combat encounters.
That makes it the mirror to Bretons 100 mag per second from "Spell attunement 3".
Redguard gets a bit more resources per second if doing direct damage consistantly, but doesn't get resistances thrown in.
Gift of magnus 3 mirrors "Conditioning 3" , so that leaves "magika mastery 3" as the comparison for "martial training 3"
The only bonus redguard has in that comparison beyond cost reduction is the 15% snare reduction, which is such a bad joke in practice that people forget it exists.
So no @Ratzkifal , I'm not "comparing the wrong passives"
And yes, I logged in to my both breton and my redguard to compare their actual ingame passives.
@Evil_Rurouni Check out what MarshmalloMan said.
Also keep in mind that 190 stamina per second is the equalivalent to 380 stamina recovery (disregarding boni to recovery), which is quite a lot more than the 130 magicka recovery Bretons have on PTS, which happens every two seconds btw.
Technically I am comparing wrong passives too though since you kind of have to look at all of them at once instead of single passives. You can't really look at them in isolation. If you look at their sum, they are very even.
The main reason Redguards are worse than Bretons is the cost difference between magicka and stamina which makes stamina sustain boni somewhat obsolete.Edited by Ratzkifal on 21 February 2021 02:03This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0 -
Evil_Rurouni✭✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »Evil_Rurouni wrote: »Evil_Rurouni wrote: »Breton main here.
Looks to me that the imperial's slightly overbuffed, rather than the Breton being slightly underpowered.
Its better to slightly nerf the Imperial than slightly buff the Breton because buffing Breton would increase class based power creep.
Any buffs recieved by the top half inceases the gap between top and bottom, and the bottom races are the ones that need help, not us.
Lower Imperials to match Bretons then give Argonians and Redguards buffs to bring them up to those same standards.
Redguard in particular sticks out in this comparison because its supposed to be the stamina equivilant of breton, but it really isn't.
Its weapon skill cost passive just doesn't measure up.
Getting 8% cost reduction of maybe 3 slotted skills or getting 7% cost reduction on all 10 of your slotted skills?
Working out which is better is a no-brainer.
@Evil_Rurouni You are comparing the wrong passives here for Redguards vs Bretons. The 8% cost reduction to weapon abilities is not the thing that is supposed to rival the 7% cost reduction to all magicka. It's the 1050 stamina that Redguards restore when dealing damage.
That being said, stamina skills are also cheaper in general than magicka skills, so Breton sustain is more useful than Redguard sustain, which is wasted.
As a Breton next patch I would look into using green max magicka food to stay viable while everyone else is using parse food. That should help keep your damage high.
If you're talking about "Adrenaline rush 3", its 950 stam every 5 seconds, not 1050.
And its only off direct damage, not all damage.
That means it delivers an absolute maximum of 190 stam per second, and in practice it'll be significantly less due to not hitting 100% uptime in combat and not giving any recovery at all between combat encounters.
That makes it the mirror to Bretons 100 mag per second from "Spell attunement 3".
Redguard gets a bit more resources per second if doing direct damage consistantly, but doesn't get resistances thrown in.
Gift of magnus 3 mirrors "Conditioning 3" , so that leaves "magika mastery 3" as the comparison for "martial training 3"
The only bonus redguard has in that comparison beyond cost reduction is the 15% snare reduction, which is such a bad joke in practice that people forget it exists.
So no @Ratzkifal , I'm not "comparing the wrong passives"
And yes, I logged in to my both breton and my redguard to compare their actual ingame passives.
Check the original PTS notes again, it's not 1050, but 1005, they're right about all damage:Redguard
Adrenaline Rush:- Increased the Stamina restored from this passive to 1005, up from 950.
- This passive now procs on any damage done, rather than Direct Damage.
Also.. not disagreeing here, Redguards are absolute garbage since the changes 2 years ago.
Hmm, I missed that litle tweak to Redguards amongst the more noteworthy changes.
Good spot @MashmalloMan.
That ups the theoretical max a bit, and makes it a bit more forgiving to actually get if you miss a light attack or 2 while applying DoTs.
Still no return between encounters and no resistances so its debatable which passive is the winner in that.
But they're still clearly intended to be mirrors of each other.
Nowhere near enough difference between the two to justify the "Conditioning 3" - "magika mastery 3" disparity.0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »Since racials are based on ZOS's set standards, this is fairly easy to compare objectively:
1-4 piece set effects = 1 point (129 weapon/spell damage, 129 stam/hp/mag regen, 1206 hp, 1096 magicka/stamina, etc, you get the idea).
5 piece set effects are often considered to be 2.325x stronger than a 1-4 piece bonus when they are completely static (no proc condition). For examples of this, please see Hundings Rage (weapon damage), Spriggan (penetration), etc or more importantly to Imperial vs Breton, Armor of the Seducer and Battlefield Acrobat.
Breton Total Set Weight = 5.608:- 2k magicka = 1.825
- 130 magicka regen = 1
- -7% cost reduction = 1.628 (see spoiler below for math based on Armor of Seducer)
- 2310 spell resistance = 0.77 (1487 armor from 1pc is spell and physical so this is just above half of that for 0.77 as it's only spell resistance)
- +2310 spell resistance proc = 0.385 (This is subject to opinion, due to it being a proc for the same value of spell resistance, I feel half is more than fair. Context is key, in pvp against magicka characters, this is probably closer to 70-80% the value while maybe 30-50% the value in pve. It can't be any more than 0.77 at most.)
Imperial Total Set Weight = 5.808:- 2k hp = 1.658
- 2k stamina = 1.825
- -6% cost reduction to everything = 2.325 (exact same bonus as 5pc Battlefield Acrobat)
So.... they're literally objectively balanced with a small difference of 0.2 in favor of Imperial, but this is only because I can't properly quantify the double spell resistance on Breton since it's a matter of opinion on how often that procs. If lets say I was less generous and it was equal to 0.585 (75% value of the base resistance) then both Imperial and Breton would have the exact same racial power at 5.808.
If you agree with my generous 50% power conclusion to the double spell resistance, then the only necessary buff Breton's would require is 1 of a few things to add that missing 0.2 power:- 155 magicka regen instead of 130 (+0.2)
- -8% magicka cost reduction instead of -7% (+0.24)
- This is more of a personal opinion, but: 1200 armor that can double on any status effect (more versatile, combined power of 1.3 to 1.6 instead of 1.0 to 1.2 from the current spell resistance, this would give the necessary bump of about +0.2)
Math for Breton cost reduction:- Armor of the Seducer 5 pc bonus = -10% magicka cost reduction. This should follow the 2.325x rule so..
- 10/2.325 = -4.3%
- Take 4.3% and see how many times it fits into the 7% from Breton:
- 7/4.3 = 1.628
@MashmalloMan I respect the method, but have a few comments. I agree with your analysis of the first 2310 Spell Resistance, however the additional 2310 can only be obtained by status effect procs, and the chance for NPC’s to apply those has been removed. In PVE this has zero value unless someone can name an encounter where a status effect is applied non-randomly.
Also the cost reduction is a tricky one. Seducer is the most obvious choice for comparison, but effectively is does the same thing as Magnus Gift set (over a long duration, with RNG). I believe the devs know that 10% cost reduction is not a balanced 5pc set bonus (nowhere near the Mag/s of Lich, Amber Plasm or Warlock), so when they adjusted Magnus (more recently) it was increased from 8% to 15%. It could be 1.628 set bonuses from Seducer, or it could be 1.121 based on Magnus.Edited by WrathOfInnos on 21 February 2021 02:301 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »Since racials are based on ZOS's set standards, this is fairly easy to compare objectively:
1-4 piece set effects = 1 point (129 weapon/spell damage, 129 stam/hp/mag regen, 1206 hp, 1096 magicka/stamina, etc, you get the idea).
5 piece set effects are often considered to be 2.325x stronger than a 1-4 piece bonus when they are completely static (no proc condition). For examples of this, please see Hundings Rage (weapon damage), Spriggan (penetration), etc or more importantly to Imperial vs Breton, Armor of the Seducer and Battlefield Acrobat.
Breton Total Set Weight = 5.608:- 2k magicka = 1.825
- 130 magicka regen = 1
- -7% cost reduction = 1.628 (see spoiler below for math based on Armor of Seducer)
- 2310 spell resistance = 0.77 (1487 armor from 1pc is spell and physical so this is just above half of that for 0.77 as it's only spell resistance)
- +2310 spell resistance proc = 0.385 (This is subject to opinion, due to it being a proc for the same value of spell resistance, I feel half is more than fair. Context is key, in pvp against magicka characters, this is probably closer to 70-80% the value while maybe 30-50% the value in pve. It can't be any more than 0.77 at most.)
Imperial Total Set Weight = 5.808:- 2k hp = 1.658
- 2k stamina = 1.825
- -6% cost reduction to everything = 2.325 (exact same bonus as 5pc Battlefield Acrobat)
So.... they're literally objectively balanced with a small difference of 0.2 in favor of Imperial, but this is only because I can't properly quantify the double spell resistance on Breton since it's a matter of opinion on how often that procs. If lets say I was less generous and it was equal to 0.585 (75% value of the base resistance) then both Imperial and Breton would have the exact same racial power at 5.808.
If you agree with my generous 50% power conclusion to the double spell resistance, then the only necessary buff Breton's would require is 1 of a few things to add that missing 0.2 power:- 155 magicka regen instead of 130 (+0.2)
- -8% magicka cost reduction instead of -7% (+0.24)
- This is more of a personal opinion, but: 1200 armor that can double on any status effect (more versatile, combined power of 1.3 to 1.6 instead of 1.0 to 1.2 from the current spell resistance, this would give the necessary bump of about +0.2)
Math for Breton cost reduction:- Armor of the Seducer 5 pc bonus = -10% magicka cost reduction. This should follow the 2.325x rule so..
- 10/2.325 = -4.3%
- Take 4.3% and see how many times it fits into the 7% from Breton:
- 7/4.3 = 1.628
@MashmalloMan I respect the method, but have a few comments. I agree with your analysis of the first 2310 Spell Resistance, however the additional 2310 can only be obtained by status effect procs, and the chance for NPC’s to apply those has been removed. In PVE this has zero value unless someone can name an encounter where a status effect is applied non-randomly.
Also the cost reduction is a tricky one. Seducer is the most obvious choice for comparison, but effectively is does the same thing as Magnus Gift set (over a long duration, with RNG). I believe the devs know that 10% cost reduction is not a balanced 5pc set bonus (nowhere near the Mag/s of Lich, Amber Plasm or Warlock), so when they adjusted Magnus it was increased from 8% to 15%. It could be 1.628 set bonuses from Seducer, or it could be 1.121 based on Magnus.
The problem with Magnus is it's not the same comparison at all. That set is based on RNG proc conditions, any set in the game with RNG proc conditions always has a higher comparable set weight value so the comparison can't be made from an objectively unbiased standpoint. Fact remains, the only sets that can be directly compared to these races are the ones stated.
For examples of this, see a set like Leviathan vs Berserking Warrior. Leviathan is 2.224x value on the 5 piece bonus (687 vs 1528). Berserking Warrior is 3.508x value on the 5 piece bonus (687 vs 2410).
Due to that fact, Magnus is not a part of the comparison because Breton does not require any proc condition for their Spell Cost Reduction. It would be disingenuous to use a set like Magnus, just like it would be disingenuous to use a set like Ravager to argue the weapon/spell damage for Orcs/Elves is too low. We both know that would be ridiculous.
If there is an arguement to be made that some set standard is not equal or underpowered, that is a different discussion entirely (I'd argue that max resource bonuses should be the same as HP now that CP 20% is removed). From the view point of Racial power being quantified based on existing set standards, I will argue the 2 classes are for the most part balanced against each other given the facts I've provided with only a minor buff being required for Bretons.
To your point about status effect proccing in pve, not sure how to look at that.. seeing as the passive isn't really that beneficial for pve to begin with and I've always viewed it as a pvp passive. That speaks more to the poor choice on the passive for Bretons and the context of the game, rather than it being specifically underpowered from a numbers perspective. In my comment, I did say I came to the conclusion that 50% of the base value seems fair because you would get like 70-80% use out of it in pvp, but 30-50% in pve. It's my subjective opinion, but I think it's pretty reasonable. Even if we assume it should be valued even less at 30% the base value that turns the 0.385 into 0.231. Breton would be a total of 5.454 and Imperial still 5.808.
With a difference of 0.354 instead of 0.2, a buff to something like spell cost reduction would be closer to -9% instead of the suggested -8% or +175 mag regen instead of the suggested 155.
All things considered, this math shows OP is way off if they think Breton deserves 400 + mag regen. (Edit: but right for OP's suggestion on -9% mag cost reduction).Edited by MashmalloMan on 21 February 2021 19:272 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »Since racials are based on ZOS's set standards, this is fairly easy to compare objectively:
1-4 piece set effects = 1 point (129 weapon/spell damage, 129 stam/hp/mag regen, 1206 hp, 1096 magicka/stamina, etc, you get the idea).
5 piece set effects are often considered to be 2.325x stronger than a 1-4 piece bonus when they are completely static (no proc condition). For examples of this, please see Hundings Rage (weapon damage), Spriggan (penetration), etc or more importantly to Imperial vs Breton, Armor of the Seducer and Battlefield Acrobat.
Breton Total Set Weight = 5.608:- 2k magicka = 1.825
- 130 magicka regen = 1
- -7% cost reduction = 1.628 (see spoiler below for math based on Armor of Seducer)
- 2310 spell resistance = 0.77 (1487 armor from 1pc is spell and physical so this is just above half of that for 0.77 as it's only spell resistance)
- +2310 spell resistance proc = 0.385 (This is subject to opinion, due to it being a proc for the same value of spell resistance, I feel half is more than fair. Context is key, in pvp against magicka characters, this is probably closer to 70-80% the value while maybe 30-50% the value in pve. It can't be any more than 0.77 at most.)
Imperial Total Set Weight = 5.808:- 2k hp = 1.658
- 2k stamina = 1.825
- -6% cost reduction to everything = 2.325 (exact same bonus as 5pc Battlefield Acrobat)
So.... they're literally objectively balanced with a small difference of 0.2 in favor of Imperial, but this is only because I can't properly quantify the double spell resistance on Breton since it's a matter of opinion on how often that procs. If lets say I was less generous and it was equal to 0.585 (75% value of the base resistance) then both Imperial and Breton would have the exact same racial power at 5.808.
If you agree with my generous 50% power conclusion to the double spell resistance, then the only necessary buff Breton's would require is 1 of a few things to add that missing 0.2 power:- 155 magicka regen instead of 130 (+0.2)
- -8% magicka cost reduction instead of -7% (+0.24)
- This is more of a personal opinion, but: 1200 armor that can double on any status effect (more versatile, combined power of 1.3 to 1.6 instead of 1.0 to 1.2 from the current spell resistance, this would give the necessary bump of about +0.2)
Math for Breton cost reduction:- Armor of the Seducer 5 pc bonus = -10% magicka cost reduction. This should follow the 2.325x rule so..
- 10/2.325 = -4.3%
- Take 4.3% and see how many times it fits into the 7% from Breton:
- 7/4.3 = 1.628
@MashmalloMan I respect the method, but have a few comments. I agree with your analysis of the first 2310 Spell Resistance, however the additional 2310 can only be obtained by status effect procs, and the chance for NPC’s to apply those has been removed. In PVE this has zero value unless someone can name an encounter where a status effect is applied non-randomly.
Also the cost reduction is a tricky one. Seducer is the most obvious choice for comparison, but effectively is does the same thing as Magnus Gift set (over a long duration, with RNG). I believe the devs know that 10% cost reduction is not a balanced 5pc set bonus (nowhere near the Mag/s of Lich, Amber Plasm or Warlock), so when they adjusted Magnus it was increased from 8% to 15%. It could be 1.628 set bonuses from Seducer, or it could be 1.121 based on Magnus.
The problem with Magnus is it's not the same comparison at all. That set is based on RNG proc conditions, any set in the game with RNG proc conditions always has a higher comparable set weight value so the comparison can't be made from an objectively unbiased standpoint. Fact remains, the only sets that can be directly compared to these races are the ones stated.
For examples of this, see a set like Leviathan vs Berserking Warrior. Leviathan is 2.224x value on the 5 piece bonus (687 vs 1528). Berserking Warrior is 3.508x value on the 5 piece bonus (687 vs 2410).
Due to that fact, Magnus is not a part of the comparison because Breton does not require any proc condition for their Spell Cost Reduction. It would be disingenuous to use a set like Magnus, just like it would be disingenuous to use a set like Ravager to argue the weapon/spell damage for Orcs/Elves is too low. We both know that would be ridiculous.
If there is an arguement to be made that some set standard is not equal or underpowered, that is a different discussion entirely (I'd argue that max resource bonuses should be the same as HP now that CP 20% is removed). From the view point of Racial power being quantified based on existing set standards, I will argue the 2 classes are for the most part balanced against each other given the facts I've provided with only a minor buff being required for Bretons.
To your point about status effect proccing in pve, not sure how to look at that.. seeing as the passive isn't really that beneficial for pve to begin with and I've always viewed it as a pvp passive. That speaks more to the poor choice on the passive for Bretons and the context of the game, rather than it being specifically underpowered from a numbers perspective. In my comment, I did say I came to the conclusion that 50% of the base value seems fair because you would get like 70-80% use out of it in pvp, but 30-50% in pve. It's my subjective opinion, but I think it's pretty reasonable. Even if we assume it should be valued even less at 30% the base value that turns the 0.385 into 0.231. Breton would be a total of 5.454 and Imperial still 5.808.
With a difference of 0.354 instead of 0.2, a buff to something like spell cost reduction would be closer to -9% instead of the suggested -8% or +175 mag regen instead of the suggested 155.
All things considered, this math shows OP is way off if they think Breton deserves 400 + mag regen.
Magnus is not the same scenario as something like Ravager. Ravager cannot have full uptime, and you would have to determine average realistic uptime for any comparison. Even using something like Spell Strat wouldn't be fair for comparison to racial passives, because although it can be 100% it has additional limitations on single-target, and advantages like being able to carry over to another bar. These are also PVP sets, which along with trial sets, often don't fit into any standard balancing, and are difficult to use as a baseline (can't compare Siroria to racial spell damage either). Overland, crafted, and dungeon sets all seem to fall closer together, but there are always exceptions.
With Magnus, you could have 15% chance to remove 100% of skill cost, or a 100% chance to remove 15% of skill cost, these are equivalent for sustain. Sure there's some luck involved, but it averages out and you can't say one option is superior to the other. You can't even do anything clever with running it on a single bar (like you could with something like Ravager or Scathing Mage). I don't think Seducer is a bad choice for a comparison, it is obviously the most similar choice to the racial bonus, just awkward that in this specific case it is so poorly balanced with other sustain sets (including another low-trait requirement crafted one). There is no scenario where any player should use Seducer when Magnus is an option, and the difference between them is clear at first glance from the tooltip.
I agree with you that something like 400+ mag regen is ridiculous. I'm not looking to make Breton overpowered, a minor buff is all they need. 9% cost reduction sounds about right, they really should've received that back when the cost reduction formula was changed (and most cost reduction values were adjusted, including Seducer from 8% to 10%).
As for the Spell Resistance, that's definitely a case where some assumptions need to be made. I won't pile too much into this thread, but I have another one going on that topic. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561031/breton-status-effect-passive#latestEdited by WrathOfInnos on 21 February 2021 04:440 -
LightYagami✭✭✭✭✭I have no idea why ZOS is giving High Elves instead of Bretons weapon damage in the up coming patch.
If there must be a hybrid race using magic and weapon, Bretons should be the hybrid and High Elves should be the mage.No improvement on Cyrodill servers -> no ESO plus renewal.2 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LightYagami wrote: »I have no idea why ZOS is giving High Elves instead of Bretons weapon damage in the up coming patch.
If there must be a hybrid race using magic and weapon, Bretons should be the hybrid and High Elves should be the mage.
How about Orcs dealing more damage than Bretons on Magicka builds 2 -
Sylas_Orin✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »Since racials are based on ZOS's set standards, this is fairly easy to compare objectively:
1-4 piece set effects = 1 point (129 weapon/spell damage, 129 stam/hp/mag regen, 1206 hp, 1096 magicka/stamina, etc, you get the idea).
5 piece set effects are often considered to be 2.325x stronger than a 1-4 piece bonus when they are completely static (no proc condition). For examples of this, please see Hundings Rage (weapon damage), Spriggan (penetration), etc or more importantly to Imperial vs Breton, Armor of the Seducer and Battlefield Acrobat.
Breton Total Set Weight = 5.608:- 2k magicka = 1.825
- 130 magicka regen = 1
- -7% cost reduction = 1.628 (see spoiler below for math based on Armor of Seducer)
- 2310 spell resistance = 0.77 (1487 armor from 1pc is spell and physical so this is just above half of that for 0.77 as it's only spell resistance)
- +2310 spell resistance proc = 0.385 (This is subject to opinion, due to it being a proc for the same value of spell resistance, I feel half is more than fair. Context is key, in pvp against magicka characters, this is probably closer to 70-80% the value while maybe 30-50% the value in pve. It can't be any more than 0.77 at most.)
Imperial Total Set Weight = 5.808:- 2k hp = 1.658
- 2k stamina = 1.825
- -6% cost reduction to everything = 2.325 (exact same bonus as 5pc Battlefield Acrobat)
So.... they're literally objectively balanced with a small difference of 0.2 in favor of Imperial, but this is only because I can't properly quantify the double spell resistance on Breton since it's a matter of opinion on how often that procs. If lets say I was less generous and it was equal to 0.585 (75% value of the base resistance) then both Imperial and Breton would have the exact same racial power at 5.808.
If you agree with my generous 50% power conclusion to the double spell resistance, then the only necessary buff Breton's would require is 1 of a few things to add that missing 0.2 power:- 155 magicka regen instead of 130 (+0.2)
- -8% magicka cost reduction instead of -7% (+0.24)
- This is more of a personal opinion, but: 1200 armor that can double on any status effect (more versatile, combined power of 1.3 to 1.6 instead of 1.0 to 1.2 from the current spell resistance, this would give the necessary bump of about +0.2)
Math for Breton cost reduction:- Armor of the Seducer 5 pc bonus = -10% magicka cost reduction. This should follow the 2.325x rule so..
- 10/2.325 = -4.3%
- Take 4.3% and see how many times it fits into the 7% from Breton:
- 7/4.3 = 1.628
@MashmalloMan I respect the method, but have a few comments. I agree with your analysis of the first 2310 Spell Resistance, however the additional 2310 can only be obtained by status effect procs, and the chance for NPC’s to apply those has been removed. In PVE this has zero value unless someone can name an encounter where a status effect is applied non-randomly.
Also the cost reduction is a tricky one. Seducer is the most obvious choice for comparison, but effectively is does the same thing as Magnus Gift set (over a long duration, with RNG). I believe the devs know that 10% cost reduction is not a balanced 5pc set bonus (nowhere near the Mag/s of Lich, Amber Plasm or Warlock), so when they adjusted Magnus (more recently) it was increased from 8% to 15%. It could be 1.628 set bonuses from Seducer, or it could be 1.121 based on Magnus.
Further adding to what Innos has said, the spell resistance bonus applied when under status effects seems to be applied at all times according to your math, mister Mash. I understand and respect what you are trying to calculate, but furthermore from what I can deduce, 2310 spell resistance, +1 extra magicka cost and 130 magicka recovery simply does not stack up against 6% stamina and health cost redux and 2000 health.
I also have to disagree with your weight attributed to the 6% overall cost redux. If you divide the weight you applied to the cost reduction of magicka on its own (1.628) by the total percentage of magicka cost redux applied to Bretons by 7 (the total cost redux percentage), then you end up with 0.23 being the weight of each individual percentage of cost redux applied to a character. This means that, going by your method, if Imperials get a 6% cost redux to each skill, this brings the total weight of Imperial cost redux up to 0.23X3X6, which equals 4.14, rather than 2.325. This brings the Imperial up to a staggering set weight of 7.623, compared to the Breton's measly 5.608.
I know you are going by the standard set by the set Battlefield Acrobat, but given the wide margin, I think you can agree that this is unbalanced. If Bretons had gotten a +6% overall cost reduction and a greater spell resistance to make up for the 2k health difference, I might be more inclined to agree, but right now, Imperials have gotten muscled up to the top of the meta in one fell swoop.Former completionist with all achievements unlocked up until Update 29 (Flames of Ambition). Avid RPer, writer, and former Breton lover. Then Legacy of the Bretons was released and I realized just how boring and uninspired the Bretons are according to the writers.0
