Just tried WW. Oh my.

raasdal · December 2020

Never tried WW before in my close to - what - 6/7/8 years in the game now. But it has never been more the rage than now. So thought i would give it a theorycrafting go. Totally ridicoulous.

Honestly, the main thing is; Why the Perma Wolf? Makes no sense? They might as well just make it a toggle. There is no way i get even close to run out of time in a BG. Don’t even need to manage it in ANY way.

Vamp is short. Goliath is short. Why is Wolf quasi permanent?

I can just build for straight up 100% wolf play and enter a BG with ulti up. I dont even have a weapon on my backbar lol.

Point is, they should amp down the time so you can be in WW like 30-50 seconds when engaged in heavy battle and like 5-10 seconda out of battle.

Even make it more deadly, that would be just fine.

The proper counter to a wolf should be to kite and wait for the wolf to run out of time.

Radiance · December 2020

I think it's bc WW is like a class in itself, you have to be in WW form to use any of it's skills and you don't get another Ultimate in WW form while Vamp skills are always available though it's still Trash.

You should be arguing for them to buff Vampirism not nerf WW... And Goliath is a tank thing, idk how that relates to this other than the transformation aspect...

Eedat · December 2020

Radiance wrote: »

I think it's bc WW is like a class in itself, you have to be in WW form to use any of it's skills and you don't get another Ultimate in WW form while Vamp skills are always available though it's still Trash.

You should be arguing for them to buff Vampirism not nerf WW... And Goliath is a tank thing, idk how that relates to this other than the transformation aspect...

I disagree. WW is pretty ridiculous right now and is in need of some sort of nerf. When I play mine there is absolutely zero chance someone can kill me in a 1 on 1. Even in BGs a coordinated team of 4 really cant touch me which is why BGs are devolving into WW vs WW vs WW. I'm not opposed to WW being decent but it's for sure more than just decent right now.

Zer0_CooL · December 2020

raasdal wrote: »

...
Even make it more deadly, that would be just fine.
...

No it obviously wouldn't.

raasdal wrote: »

...
The proper counter to a wolf should be to kite and wait for the wolf to run out of time.
...

Great, that would just favor the "runaway until ulti is full" meta we curently see. Not that people already spend more time running off than actually fighting.

Qbiken · December 2020

The one and only problem with werewolf is the HP based heal (which should be reworked to scale of max stamina and weapon damage). The rest of the toolkit and design is fine.

Honestly, the main thing is; Why the Perma Wolf?

Why does all transformation ultimates need to be designed the same way? Streamlining everything to work the same kills flavours, and the ww uptime isn't what's unbalanced about it (the self heal is, but 99/00 people still stick their head down the ground and keeps ignoring that fact).

But it has never been more the rage than now.

I find this to be very strange why that's the case. Werewolf peaked in performance during the Elsweyr patch and the current werewolf is nothing compared to what it was back then. Main difference is that malacath got added to the game which made it possible to invest even more into sustain as a ww.

But generally speaking, I haven't seen a single werewolf on PCEU that is successful in BG's against competent players. At best they can survive and run away from a few encounters.

I've met 1 that I found to be somewhat of a threat in nocp IC a few weeks ago, and I've seen one dc ww 8-10 man group with absolutely 0 damage in Ravenwatch. But that's about it (if we exclude the ww duo-trio I ran myself some time ago).

I've said it in so many threads but people don't want to listen:

Rework the heal to scale of max stamina and weapon damage (but keep it to cost magicka) and you solve 99% of all the issues with werewolf.

ivramirez · December 2020

nerf WW right now.

Xiomaro · December 2020

A slightly different solution is to reduce the damage done on WW overall and then give the Berserker WW a damage boost to compensate. This would make the tank morph do less damage as a trade off for getting the extra 10% damage reduction.

I'm primarily a PVPer (95% of my time is spent in PVP). But when I tank in PVE, I use a WW because... I dunno, I like the concept. Removing the health scaled heal would kill PVE WW tanks. Even if it's niche, we all know ZOS tries to cater to multiple playstyles.

There's no doubt that a Werewolf in full sustain/defense gear does too much damage for how tanky they are. That's the main problem as I see it. Honestly, WW doesn't do enough damage to burst down a well built player but it's enough to ruin a newbie's day.

Regarding health scaling heals... I feel like this is an issue in general. It's mostly due to the current low stat proc meta but health scaling heals are crazy strong at the moment. In a meta where everyone is running procs with low spell/weapon damage, healing is very low. That makes health stacking with a health scaled heal very powerful. This isn't always going to be the case though. Perhaps this needs to be looked at through the battle spirit though because stuff like Arctic Blast is also oppressively strong when you stack health, not just the WW heal.

Tommy_The_Gun · December 2020

raasdal wrote: »

Vamp is short. Goliath is short. Why is Wolf quasi permanent?

Vamp & Goliath can use any skills and passive they want. WW is stuck with WW skills and weapon passives are disabled.

Radiance wrote: »

I think it's bc WW is like a class in itself, you have to be in WW form to use any of it's skills and you don't get another Ultimate in WW form while Vamp skills are always available though it's still Trash.

You should be arguing for them to buff Vampirism not nerf WW... And Goliath is a tank thing, idk how that relates to this other than the transformation aspect...

Exactly.

WW is more like its own small class that you gain access via ultimate. They have passives to compensate for lack of weapon passives and lack of access to some almost necessary tools like CC immunity or purge. The other balancing factor is WW skills that are 25% more expensive (and are criminal act) than regular skills and heal costs magicka - on a primary stamina build. On top of that, heal scales with health, so in order to have decent heal you have to allocate some attribute points into health, and have some form of magicka sustain... on a stamina build.

I mean, try to play WW solo in open world Cyro (no zerg surfing) and with stat-buffing sets only (no proc sets)... It is probably hardest thing you can try to do, to 1vx like that.

Also I agree with the 2nd part. Vamps should get a buff. Strong one tbh. WW is in a ok-ish spot, so I kinda wish Vamps were in a good spot too.

The only problem with WW is actually not WW itself.
In BGs (and IC) It is proc sets that scale with nothing. So you can allocate everything into health and run 2 proc sets + brutality ring. Pretty busted design imho (it is not exclusive for WW, all class can run this type of build effectively, this is the terribly bad meta we are at right now.

Once ZOS somehow will deal with "dmg proc set" meta - WW will be either gone from PvP or reduced in numbers, without a single nerf to WW.

But if somehow ZOS will take the path to nerf WW instead of proc sets - it will be PvE WW that will feel it the hardest , but in PvP - people will still use WW, no matter the nerfs as it is proc sets that are the issue. Not WW.

raasdal wrote: »

The proper counter to a wolf should be to kite and wait for the wolf to run out of time.

Well, proper counter right now is CC, dots & magicka skill cost poisons. WWs do not have CC immunity tool So almost every CC will work on them. They do not have Purge, So any status effect or damage over time (poison in particular) - they will have to eat it up all. Also Mgicka cost poison = they can not heal as much as magicka heal WW has is quite expensive, and with the added cost they wont be able to out-heal incoming dmg.

HankTwo · December 2020

Qbiken wrote: »

The one and only problem with werewolf is the HP based heal (which should be reworked to scale of max stamina and weapon damage). The rest of the toolkit and design is fine.

Honestly, the main thing is; Why the Perma Wolf?

Why does all transformation ultimates need to be designed the same way? Streamlining everything to work the same kills flavours, and the ww uptime isn't what's unbalanced about it (the self heal is, but 99/00 people still stick their head down the ground and keeps ignoring that fact).

But it has never been more the rage than now.

I find this to be very strange why that's the case. Werewolf peaked in performance during the Elsweyr patch and the current werewolf is nothing compared to what it was back then. Main difference is that malacath got added to the game which made it possible to invest even more into sustain as a ww.

But generally speaking, I haven't seen a single werewolf on PCEU that is successful in BG's against competent players. At best they can survive and run away from a few encounters.

I've met 1 that I found to be somewhat of a threat in nocp IC a few weeks ago, and I've seen one dc ww 8-10 man group with absolutely 0 damage in Ravenwatch. But that's about it (if we exclude the ww duo-trio I ran myself some time ago).

I've said it in so many threads but people don't want to listen:

Rework the heal to scale of max stamina and weapon damage (but keep it to cost magicka) and you solve 99% of all the issues with werewolf.

I'm inclined to agree but I'm still somewhat unsure. If I look at the werewolf players I meet in PvP their damage usually is not that good but their defense can be over the top. Still, is that more of a werewolf balance issue (--> strong health-based heal, passive resistances, white wolf mitigation) or simply a build issue. The DC werewolfs you talked about are a good example imo. Afaik they play something like chudan + eternal vigor + crimson which to me looks like a build thats just unnecessary tanky, and in turn sacrifices too much damage. If you would switch crimson for say 3 piece agility + 1 piece trainee + malacath, run full infused or maybe even bloodthirsty weapon damage enchants, as well as the black wolf morph how do you think the damage & survivability would be? I never played werewolf but a build like that looks pretty strong on paper:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=252196

Imperial for max stats and cost reduction, sorc for cost reduction & overall strong passives for ww, maybe with double dot or immobilization poisons on the frontbar. I heard that the bow dodge speed passive still works in ww so that may be a better weapon than dw then.

Mr_Nobody · December 2020

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Vamp is short. Goliath is short. Why is Wolf quasi permanent?

Vamp & Goliath can use any skills and passive they want. WW is stuck with WW skills and weapon passives are disabled.

Radiance wrote: »

I think it's bc WW is like a class in itself, you have to be in WW form to use any of it's skills and you don't get another Ultimate in WW form while Vamp skills are always available though it's still Trash.

You should be arguing for them to buff Vampirism not nerf WW... And Goliath is a tank thing, idk how that relates to this other than the transformation aspect...

Exactly.

WW is more like its own small class that you gain access via ultimate. They have passives to compensate for lack of weapon passives and lack of access to some almost necessary tools like CC immunity or purge. The other balancing factor is WW skills that are 25% more expensive (and are criminal act) than regular skills and heal costs magicka - on a primary stamina build. On top of that, heal scales with health, so in order to have decent heal you have to allocate some attribute points into health, and have some form of magicka sustain... on a stamina build.

I mean, try to play WW solo in open world Cyro (no zerg surfing) and with stat-buffing sets only (no proc sets)... It is probably hardest thing you can try to do, to 1vx like that.

Also I agree with the 2nd part. Vamps should get a buff. Strong one tbh. WW is in a ok-ish spot, so I kinda wish Vamps were in a good spot too.

The only problem with WW is actually not WW itself.
In BGs (and IC) It is proc sets that scale with nothing. So you can allocate everything into health and run 2 proc sets + brutality ring. Pretty busted design imho (it is not exclusive for WW, all class can run this type of build effectively, this is the terribly bad meta we are at right now.

Once ZOS somehow will deal with "dmg proc set" meta - WW will be either gone from PvP or reduced in numbers, without a single nerf to WW.

But if somehow ZOS will take the path to nerf WW instead of proc sets - it will be PvE WW that will feel it the hardest , but in PvP - people will still use WW, no matter the nerfs as it is proc sets that are the issue. Not WW.

raasdal wrote: »

The proper counter to a wolf should be to kite and wait for the wolf to run out of time.

Well, proper counter right now is CC, dots & magicka skill cost poisons. WWs do not have CC immunity tool So almost every CC will work on them. They do not have Purge, So any status effect or damage over time (poison in particular) - they will have to eat it up all. Also Mgicka cost poison = they can not heal as much as magicka heal WW has is quite expensive, and with the added cost they wont be able to out-heal incoming dmg.

What? Not sure which sets you tried but playing solo WW in Cyrodiil is a complete easy mode.

Jameson18 · December 2020

Take 5-10% off the movement speed boost, drop the 10k armor down to the 5800 like the buff range (or build the buff in so they can't use chudan), and scale the HP based heal correctly (it heals for more than polar wind/arctic blast) and watch how many people throw a fit. Just those subtle changes would honestly balance things out and then be enough to ditch some of them.

I have two. If you can't control a fight with a WW and don't think its out of balance, you have other underlying issues. No offense.

Crimson and other sets needing to be addressed is another issue entirely, tbh.

MurderMostFoul · December 2020

PermaWolf is a problem. As it stands, werewolf is certainly overtuned. Making werewolf form more temporary could be an effective adjustment. But whatever happens, ZOS needs to do something to bring Werewolf more in line with other options.

Chrlynsch · December 2020

HankTwo wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

The one and only problem with werewolf is the HP based heal (which should be reworked to scale of max stamina and weapon damage). The rest of the toolkit and design is fine.

Honestly, the main thing is; Why the Perma Wolf?

Why does all transformation ultimates need to be designed the same way? Streamlining everything to work the same kills flavours, and the ww uptime isn't what's unbalanced about it (the self heal is, but 99/00 people still stick their head down the ground and keeps ignoring that fact).

But it has never been more the rage than now.

I find this to be very strange why that's the case. Werewolf peaked in performance during the Elsweyr patch and the current werewolf is nothing compared to what it was back then. Main difference is that malacath got added to the game which made it possible to invest even more into sustain as a ww.

But generally speaking, I haven't seen a single werewolf on PCEU that is successful in BG's against competent players. At best they can survive and run away from a few encounters.

I've met 1 that I found to be somewhat of a threat in nocp IC a few weeks ago, and I've seen one dc ww 8-10 man group with absolutely 0 damage in Ravenwatch. But that's about it (if we exclude the ww duo-trio I ran myself some time ago).

I've said it in so many threads but people don't want to listen:

Rework the heal to scale of max stamina and weapon damage (but keep it to cost magicka) and you solve 99% of all the issues with werewolf.

I'm inclined to agree but I'm still somewhat unsure. If I look at the werewolf players I meet in PvP their damage usually is not that good but their defense can be over the top. Still, is that more of a werewolf balance issue (--> strong health-based heal, passive resistances, white wolf mitigation) or simply a build issue. The DC werewolfs you talked about are a good example imo. Afaik they play something like chudan + eternal vigor + crimson which to me looks like a build thats just unnecessary tanky, and in turn sacrifices too much damage. If you would switch crimson for say 3 piece agility + 1 piece trainee + malacath, run full infused or maybe even bloodthirsty weapon damage enchants, as well as the black wolf morph how do you think the damage & survivability would be? I never played werewolf but a build like that looks pretty strong on paper:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=252196

Imperial for max stats and cost reduction, sorc for cost reduction & overall strong passives for ww, maybe with double dot or immobilization poisons on the frontbar. I heard that the bow dodge speed passive still works in ww so that may be a better weapon than dw then.

Right now all the werewolves you see players complaining about are the ones that are stacking max health and/or health regen (Allesian). Then utilizing proc sets and mythic items for their damage. This makes wolves have big burst heals and solid regen. Their defile was reduced but the proc damage is still strong enough to overwhelm most enemies

If we swapped the health base heal to a stam/weapon damage based heal, werewolf wouldn't have a reason to stack their health as high, as is the heal only caters to toll and proc wolves. It also would encourage werewolves to stay away from proc sets as well as they lose out on survivability.

Change the heal and fix 95% of the issues players have with wolves. Right now the Werewolves are Lumbering, opressive, annoying. Make them fast, deadly, fearsome.

Nord_Raseri · December 2020

Qbiken wrote: »

The one and only problem with werewolf is the HP based heal (which should be reworked to scale of max stamina and weapon damage). The rest of the toolkit and design is fine.

Honestly, the main thing is; Why the Perma Wolf?

Why does all transformation ultimates need to be designed the same way? Streamlining everything to work the same kills flavours, and the ww uptime isn't what's unbalanced about it (the self heal is, but 99/00 people still stick their head down the ground and keeps ignoring that fact).

But it has never been more the rage than now.

I find this to be very strange why that's the case. Werewolf peaked in performance during the Elsweyr patch and the current werewolf is nothing compared to what it was back then. Main difference is that malacath got added to the game which made it possible to invest even more into sustain as a ww.

But generally speaking, I haven't seen a single werewolf on PCEU that is successful in BG's against competent players. At best they can survive and run away from a few encounters.

I've met 1 that I found to be somewhat of a threat in nocp IC a few weeks ago, and I've seen one dc ww 8-10 man group with absolutely 0 damage in Ravenwatch. But that's about it (if we exclude the ww duo-trio I ran myself some time ago).

I've said it in so many threads but people don't want to listen:

Rework the heal to scale of max stamina and weapon damage (but keep it to cost magicka) and you solve 99% of all the issues with werewolf.

all of that^. Without the hp based heal, WWs wouldn't be running around with high health wearing Crimson, leeching, and malacath(Or whatever similar variation)

Vizirith · December 2020

I agree about the health based heal being one of the main issues but to be honest I think they just need to tune down the length. Balancing an ult's "power" isn't particularly easy when it is almost permanent. If the ww had basically all of the upsides and weaknesses of say a dk, then why would anybody use it? It has to be inherently stronger than baseline skills/passives for it to be worthwhile but then when it is nigh permanent it's just more powerful all the time. Imho it should be a different skill set, not necessarily better. Either a high damage but kinda squishy "burst ult" for decent use on tankier builds, a lower damage but tanky form for better use with nb's or squishier builds; maybe make the morphs more distinct. But in either case it's the length that makes counter play harder.

Take vamp. Being a vampire has 100% uptime but isn't particularly good on a lot of builds. Increased skill cost make it difficult on classes without decent sustain and the skills themselves are somewhat niche. The ult is quite powerful but can be kited when used on slower classes and lasts 20 secs. If it lasted minutes it would need to be tuned down a bit.

ccfeeling · December 2020

Vizirith wrote: »

I agree about the health based heal being one of the main issues but to be honest I think they just need to tune down the length. Balancing an ult's "power" isn't particularly easy when it is almost permanent. If the ww had basically all of the upsides and weaknesses of say a dk, then why would anybody use it? It has to be inherently stronger than baseline skills/passives for it to be worthwhile but then when it is nigh permanent it's just more powerful all the time. Imho it should be a different skill set, not necessarily better. Either a high damage but kinda squishy "burst ult" for decent use on tankier builds, a lower damage but tanky form for better use with nb's or squishier builds; maybe make the morphs more distinct. But in either case it's the length that makes counter play harder.

Take vamp. Being a vampire has 100% uptime but isn't particularly good on a lot of builds. Increased skill cost make it difficult on classes without decent sustain and the skills themselves are somewhat niche. The ult is quite powerful but can be kited when used on slower classes and lasts 20 secs. If it lasted minutes it would need to be tuned down a bit.

They won't confess that WW uptime is the most big problem .
Nerf health base healing ? They can change to huge stamina build easily .
64 point stamina , Draugr Hulk and WW passive
While Transformed your Max Stamina is increased by 30%. While slotted, your Stamina Recovery is increased by 15%.

Pursuit
(WHILE YOU ARE IN WEREWOLF FORM) Increases your Movement Speed by 30%. Increases the Stamina your Heavy Attacks restore by 50%.

Savage Strength
(WHILE YOU ARE IN WEREWOLF FORM) Increases your Weapon Damage by 18%. Increases your Spell and Physical Resistance by 10000.

5 pc heavy , I prefer Eternal Vigor , WW is freaking tanky ...
Give up monster , use 1 mythic , anyone works depends on WW playstyle .

Nerf healing won't fix the problem , DEV , please take a look !

Qbiken · December 2020

They won't confess that WW uptime is the most big problem .

Because it´s the not the issue. And limiting the uptime on werewolf will kill any PvE application of them (don´t do ww in PvE myself, but I know alot of people who do). If werewolf stack into max stamina and weapon damage, guess what? Werewolfs won´t sit at 40k + HP anymore. And when you sit at a lower max HP, it means you can get bursted, you can easier get pushed into execute and killed. When you sit at 35-40k HP you are at much lower risk to drop into execute.

And having the heal scale of your offensive stats (weapon dmg/max stam) gives people an initiative to run medium armor on werewolf (which literally no one uses these Days on werewolf due to Heavy just overperforming in almost every aspect). And when you run medium, you become a lot squishier.

So yes, reworking the heal will solve the issue. Will werewolf change their setups? Ofc they will, and they can still remain strong, but it will be in a much healthier state than they currently are. Instead of being an obnoxnious tank without any damage that can´t be killed, they become a high dmg, high mobility spec which can be bursted/pressured down if played right.

Nerf healing won't fix the problem , DEV , please take a look !

Why do you think stamina warden so strong this patch? Because they can stack 35k+ HP, drop vigor and run artic blast and then stack proc-sets to take care of their damage. Werewolf is in a similar boat, except they don´t benefit as much from stacking procs due to their self heal being so expensive.

ccfeeling · December 2020

40k HP setting or not , depends on the goal . What kind of 1VX the player looking for .
Damage vs Survivability .

As you mentioned , heavy is the king every patch , I don't think WW will change to 5 Medium or more for those passives even the healing scale changed to WD / Stamina pool

Dexterity
Increases your Weapon Critical rating by 328 for each piece of Medium Armor equipped.

Agility
(WHEN 5 OR MORE PIECES OF MEDIUM ARMOR ARE EQUIPPED) Increases your Weapon Damage by 15%.

Malacath's Band of Brutality is still exist , medium is not the good choice .

Dead man can't do damage .

I don't know what DEV will do or nothing will be changed in the future , I suppose 10 mins WW transformation hard reset . 24 hours WW is just too OP .
Sad to say but PVE is not really the 1st priority DEV has to think about at this moment .

Yes , stamden is also powerful after patched , but it's a bit far from this OP , we will discuss on other post .

Jeremy · December 2020

I don't think werewolf is that OP. It's strong, but other set ups do way more damage. The reason so many people like werewolves is because of the current state of PvP.

One of the very few ways to to live is to hide behind rocks and trees to heal back up. This game plays more like a shooting game now where people unload bursts then duck into cover to heal back up and werewolf is particularly good at doing this. But there are way more overpowered set ups out there. Nothing even comes close to those coordinated proc explosions which can literally drop a player with 50k health and max resist in less than a second. It's absurd.

Xiomaro · December 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

I don't think werewolf is that OP. It's strong, but other set ups do way more damage. The reason so many people like werewolves is because of the current state of PvP.

One of the very few ways to to live is to hide behind rocks and trees to heal back up. This game plays more like a shooting game now where people unload bursts then duck into cover to heal back up and werewolf is particularly good at doing this. But there are way more overpowered set ups out there. Nothing even comes close to those coordinated proc explosions which can literally drop a player with 50k health and max resist in less than a second. It's absurd.

Yeah, this is true. Werewolf is overperforming for sure. And the fact that it's very easy to play really rustles peoples' jimmies. But there are much more powerful set ups than WW.

For example, Stamden with Crimson/EV/Vateshran 2H/Malacath (you can swap EV for another set if you prefer). You're just as much of a raid boss as a werewolf except you can turn around and explode people with your burst.

Chrlynsch · December 2020

Me August 1, 2020

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Beginning of the WereProcolypse

If you think that werewolves are bad now just wait until the massive proc sets come out next patch, we all know what went down when Torg's was broken and how well it worked with werewolves. Save your tears for then you will need them.

Remember to stay hydrated out there.

Sergykid · December 2020

ivramirez wrote: »

nerf WW right now.

every single dev working at zos dropped their pencils right in this second and are opening the editor.