Tanks in battlegrounds

DTStormfox · October 2020

This is just a message to those believing that tanking is useful in Battlegrounds:

it is not

So, if you only have 40+ hp 'block build' and cannot do any damage or heal your teammates, please don't join the Battlegrounds queue.

Thank you in advance.

Why this discussion?
I experience a lot of random teaming up with 'block builds' and 'tanks' in Battlegrounds lately. Today, two of my random teams consisted of me (damage) and three randoms running 'tanks' or 'block builds'. It was a complete waste of my time because such builds add nothing to the team or playing the objectives.
The fact is, 'block builds' or 'tanks' in PvP serve no function. Eventually, you will run out of HP or Stamina (to block) and you will have achieved nothing. Yes, it may create a short period of the enemies wasting time on you but they will soon ignore your 'block build' or 'tank' because you are not a threat to them anyways.

wheem_ESO · October 2020

If those builds just switched things up slightly, they could be obscenely overpowered. There's a particular Stamina (of course) Necromancer that runs with Sellistrix + 2h Maelstrom, and can hold block for longer than anyone I've seen in no-CP since the days of permablocking Templar healers a few years ago. Still managed to get something like 872k damage in a game a little bit ago, where 2nd and 3rd place were around 640k. The Dizzy Swing spam was only hitting for around 3k or so, but when you've got Major Defile up permanently, and are spammed with procs and off-GCD stuns, it's still a nightmare to try and fight against. And if you start to get the upper hand, out comes the permablocking.

Noctus · October 2020

DTStormfox wrote: »

This is just a message to those believing that tanking is useful in Battlegrounds:

it is not

So, if you only have 40+ hp 'block build' and cannot do any damage or heal your teammates, please don't join the Battlegrounds queue.

Thank you in advance.

u never crossed paths with decimushd for example ?

Noctus · October 2020

wheem_ESO wrote: »

If those builds just switched things up slightly, they could be obscenely overpowered. There's a particular Stamina (of course) Necromancer that runs with Sellistrix + 2h Maelstrom, and can hold block for longer than anyone I've seen in no-CP since the days of permablocking Templar healers a few years ago. Still managed to get something like 872k damage in a game a little bit ago, where 2nd and 3rd place were around 640k. The Dizzy Swing spam was only hitting for around 3k or so, but when you've got Major Defile up permanently, and are spammed with procs and off-GCD stuns, it's still a nightmare to try and fight against. And if you start to get the upper hand, out comes the permablocking.

there are many ppl in eupc healthstacking with still good dmg. its pretty easy on the warden too.

wheem_ESO · October 2020

Noctus wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

This is just a message to those believing that tanking is useful in Battlegrounds:

it is not

So, if you only have 40+ hp 'block build' and cannot do any damage or heal your teammates, please don't join the Battlegrounds queue.

Thank you in advance.

u never crossed paths with decimushd for example ?

I've seen some of the type of player that the OP is referring to in PC-NA BGs. It seems that at least some are basically in PvE tanking builds with 40k+ HP and no damage (not even from proc sets). They'll often just chill while blocking or mist forming, and don't really contribute anything to their team. As I said above, with some modifications to their build, those players could actually have some pretty ridiculous damage through procs.

Noctus wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

If those builds just switched things up slightly, they could be obscenely overpowered. There's a particular Stamina (of course) Necromancer that runs with Sellistrix + 2h Maelstrom, and can hold block for longer than anyone I've seen in no-CP since the days of permablocking Templar healers a few years ago. Still managed to get something like 872k damage in a game a little bit ago, where 2nd and 3rd place were around 640k. The Dizzy Swing spam was only hitting for around 3k or so, but when you've got Major Defile up permanently, and are spammed with procs and off-GCD stuns, it's still a nightmare to try and fight against. And if you start to get the upper hand, out comes the permablocking.

there are many ppl in eupc healthstacking with still good dmg. its pretty easy on the warden too.

I see quite a few proc set wearers on PC-NA that also have very high HP, but I've never seen anyone else able to hold block for nearly as long as a particular Stamina Necromancer.

Jeremy · October 2020

DTStormfox wrote: »

This is just a message to those believing that tanking is useful in Battlegrounds:

it is not

So, if you only have 40+ hp 'block build' and cannot do any damage or heal your teammates, please don't join the Battlegrounds queue.

Thank you in advance.

Why this discussion?
I experience a lot of random teaming up with 'block builds' and 'tanks' in Battlegrounds lately. Today, two of my random teams consisted of me (damage) and three randoms running 'tanks' or 'block builds'. It was a complete waste of my time because such builds add nothing to the team or playing the objectives.
The fact is, 'block builds' or 'tanks' in PvP serve no function. Eventually, you will run out of HP or Stamina (to block) and you will have achieved nothing. Yes, it may create a short period of the enemies wasting time on you but they will soon ignore your 'block build' or 'tank' because you are not a threat to them anyways.

I'm skeptical there is even such a thing as a "block build" in no CP PvP. Block is barely useful anymore as a defensive tool and I haven't seen any since Greymoor. Players can just CC you right through it then burst you down in a blink of an eye.

So honestly it sounds like this tank you are talking about was doing something impressive if he was able to force opponents off of him by blocking. I'd get his/her name and ask him what he was doing if I were you. haha

Waffennacht · October 2020

@Jeremy there is a Thews tank that loves to block and is no CP BG viable. Typically Warden or Necro (ive only seen necros in BGs tho)

There's other health builds, but they dont block nearly as much as a thews in no CP

Jeremy · October 2020

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Jeremy there is a Thews tank that loves to block and is no CP BG viable. Typically Warden or Necro (ive only seen necros in BGs tho)

There's other health builds, but they dont block nearly as much as a thews in no CP

Yeah I've heard of them and I think I've fought them a few times. But don't they block to do more damage? I don't think they are blocking as a way to tank others. So I don't think that's what the OP is referring to here. But maybe it is.

All I know is I've yet to encounter one of those old timey block tanks in battlegrounds since Greymoor. I can see why too, because every time I try to use block as a way to defend myself they just CC me right through the block then blow me up. So it doesn't really help me much. I'm usually better off trying to run behind something if I need to avoid damage. Block just doesn't seem nearly as reliable as a defensive tool as it once was.

Now I'm not saying block tanks don't exist. But I just haven't seen any and haven't been able to come up with a way to make one viable myself either. So if the OP is actually encountering defensive block tanks I'd be curious to know how they are pulling it off. Because in my experience, trying to turtle up with block just turns you into a smear on the pavement. They don't ignore me at all. They just run me over like a freight train. haha

Maybe I'll give that Thews of the Harbinger set a go and see if it actually does let you fend off attackers with block. I'm skeptical. But since I haven't tried it out for myself I can't rule it out.

Noctus · October 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Jeremy there is a Thews tank that loves to block and is no CP BG viable. Typically Warden or Necro (ive only seen necros in BGs tho)

There's other health builds, but they dont block nearly as much as a thews in no CP

Yeah I've heard of them and I think I've fought them a few times. But don't they block to do more damage? I don't think they are blocking as a way to tank others. So I don't think that's what the OP is referring to here. But maybe it is.

the viable tank builds are with warden mostly.

Morwaenna · October 2020

Oh God they bore me to death. That's how they win, boring us to death.

Inval1d · October 2020

Sounds like they would be very good at chaosball

DTStormfox · October 2020

Inval1d wrote: »

Sounds like they would be very good at chaosball

Well, maybe that is the single exception in which tanks might be useful, lol

Merforum · October 2020

Inval1d wrote: »

Sounds like they would be very good at chaosball

Exactly the OP is only correct for deathmatch where a tank is useless but in Chaosball the tank is the best option. Even in domination where you need someone to just hold a flag for a long time it is great, that way the other 3 can take the other flags. Even in capture relic if you can tank 1-2 people and not die guarding your relic that is essential. So in 3 out of 5 games 1 tank is excellent. 3 tanks is not good though.

Wait I take that back, a tank can be OK in deathmatch too if used correctly like if the other teams waste time beating on him and the rest of the team can just spam attacks on the guy. And you would think most people would just avoid a tank but it is amazing how many will focus on a tank over and over, cuz they can't understand why they can't kill them.

Waffennacht · October 2020

@Jeremy My knowledge of how the build is made is OLD but RouDer was:

Skoria
Thews
Armor Master

At the time Degeneration increased max HP and so did Defensive posture so he slotted both on bars

He had all max health enchantments and max health attributes all healthy traits, Nord

All sturdy trait and posture to reduce block cost, netch for stam return while blocking

Ran Artic Wind, Gripping Shards because both scale to max health

Today id trade in skoria for one of the new monster sets or Zaan; id be Vampire for the ult to gain an additional 10k health

With such a set up youre hitting insane HP numbers, may change the armor around for today's world

But thats what it was.

Jeremy · October 2020

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Jeremy My knowledge of how the build is made is OLD but RouDer was:

Skoria
Thews
Armor Master

At the time Degeneration increased max HP and so did Defensive posture so he slotted both on bars

He had all max health enchantments and max health attributes all healthy traits, Nord

All sturdy trait and posture to reduce block cost, netch for stam return while blocking

Ran Artic Wind, Gripping Shards because both scale to max health

Today id trade in skoria for one of the new monster sets or Zaan; id be Vampire for the ult to gain an additional 10k health

With such a set up youre hitting insane HP numbers, may change the armor around for today's world

But thats what it was.

It looks interesting. It's a shame it's probably Warden exclusive though since they have more abilities that scale to max health. So it would probably be a lost cause to try something like this on Templar since we only have one ability that scales with health and it sucks.

I've also been thinking... but maybe it would be possible to keep unstoppable going to help you keep up the block. That might would stop them from simply CCing you through block and bursting you down. It looks like Thews doesn't have a range limit so perhaps the snare from the armor ultimate wouldn't be such a deal breaker.

Waffennacht · October 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Jeremy My knowledge of how the build is made is OLD but RouDer was:

Skoria
Thews
Armor Master

At the time Degeneration increased max HP and so did Defensive posture so he slotted both on bars

He had all max health enchantments and max health attributes all healthy traits, Nord

All sturdy trait and posture to reduce block cost, netch for stam return while blocking

Ran Artic Wind, Gripping Shards because both scale to max health

Today id trade in skoria for one of the new monster sets or Zaan; id be Vampire for the ult to gain an additional 10k health

With such a set up youre hitting insane HP numbers, may change the armor around for today's world

But thats what it was.

It looks interesting. It's a shame it's probably Warden exclusive though since they have more abilities that scale to max health. So it would probably be a lost cause to try something like this on Templar since we only have one ability that scales with health and it sucks.

I've also been thinking... but maybe it would be possible to keep unstoppable going to help you keep up the block. That might would stop them from simply CCing you through block and bursting you down. It looks like Thews doesn't have a range limit so perhaps the snare from the armor ultimate wouldn't be such a deal breaker.

Right, and there is no range; it's weird AF having your health drain from across the map

DTStormfox · October 2020

Merforum wrote: »

Exactly the OP is only correct for deathmatch where a tank is useless but in Chaosball the tank is the best option. Even in domination where you need someone to just hold a flag for a long time it is great, that way the other 3 can take the other flags. Even in capture relic if you can tank 1-2 people and not die guarding your relic that is essential. So in 3 out of 5 games 1 tank is excellent. 3 tanks is not good though.

Wait I take that back, a tank can be OK in deathmatch too if used correctly like if the other teams waste time beating on him and the rest of the team can just spam attacks on the guy. And you would think most people would just avoid a tank but it is amazing how many will focus on a tank over and over, cuz they can't understand why they can't kill them.

I don't fully agree.
In Domination or Crazy King, it is indeed useful to have high survivability whilst holding a flag. However, the flag will still flip if one team has more people on the flag than the other team. This means that a single tank may be able to survive while the other team 'steals' the flag and cannot counter that fact because this tank lacks damage.

In Capture the Relic, being tanky is useful if you have the enemy Relic in your possession. A tank is not useful in defending the Relic because one has to kill the enemy player to prevent them from taking your relic. Yes, you could interrupt but after the first interrupt, the enemy player is immune for a short time, allowing them to take the relic anyways. After the enemy team takes your relic, the tank lacks damage to kill the enemy relic carrier.

In Deathmatch, you do not score any points for surviving. Deathmatch is all about killing other players. Yes, the tank may prevent players from killing the tank for a set duration of time and act as a distraction (due to tankiness this will take longer than a regular player). However, enemy players will quickly learn to ignore that player because the tank doesn't pose a threat either.

ImSoPro · October 2020

Tanks are great for PVP. They come in and draw everyone’s attention because everyone wants to take the tank down. Then people like me start to pick people off the edge of the ruckus. Then when the dust settles and everyone’s dead or disengaged, the tank continues to lightly jog around the arena with no fear for his life. It’s the biggest troll ever.

MurderMostFoul · October 2020

In deathmatch, assuming your opponents are smart enough not to just bang on a tank that does not pose a threat, a tank needs to be able to have consistent outgoing damage and/or debuffs in order to be useful.

You can't just go in there with high health and mitigation, and be satisfied that you can live through most anything. Smart opponents will just ignore you. An effective tank in DM is one that can't be ignored. Being able to spam immobilizations, defiles, maims, etc. or having sources of decent, consistent outgoing damage to soften up your opponents; that's what you need to be a useful tank in deathmatch.

Merforum · October 2020

DTStormfox wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Exactly the OP is only correct for deathmatch where a tank is useless but in Chaosball the tank is the best option. Even in domination where you need someone to just hold a flag for a long time it is great, that way the other 3 can take the other flags. Even in capture relic if you can tank 1-2 people and not die guarding your relic that is essential. So in 3 out of 5 games 1 tank is excellent. 3 tanks is not good though.

Wait I take that back, a tank can be OK in deathmatch too if used correctly like if the other teams waste time beating on him and the rest of the team can just spam attacks on the guy. And you would think most people would just avoid a tank but it is amazing how many will focus on a tank over and over, cuz they can't understand why they can't kill them.

I don't fully agree.
In Domination or Crazy King, it is indeed useful to have high survivability whilst holding a flag. However, the flag will still flip if one team has more people on the flag than the other team. This means that a single tank may be able to survive while the other team 'steals' the flag and cannot counter that fact because this tank lacks damage.

In Capture the Relic, being tanky is useful if you have the enemy Relic in your possession. A tank is not useful in defending the Relic because one has to kill the enemy player to prevent them from taking your relic. Yes, you could interrupt but after the first interrupt, the enemy player is immune for a short time, allowing them to take the relic anyways. After the enemy team takes your relic, the tank lacks damage to kill the enemy relic carrier.

In Deathmatch, you do not score any points for surviving. Deathmatch is all about killing other players. Yes, the tank may prevent players from killing the tank for a set duration of time and act as a distraction (due to tankiness this will take longer than a regular player). However, enemy players will quickly learn to ignore that player because the tank doesn't pose a threat either.

I just mean tanky enough to hold off 2 players but has enough damage to kill someone after you bash off relic 1 time and they try again. But if a tanky guy is grabbing a relic while dd is killing you, you are probably screwed anyway. Ideally you want 2 teams with one tanky and one damage to both guard and get the relics (same for domination and crazy king).

Just had a match the other day with a dude who was insanely tanky.and for crazy king we both went from one flag to the next. Where we killed everything and he put guard on me to take 30% damage. It was the most awesome match ever. He got like 4000 points and I got 3500, we won 510, I have no clue what the other 2 guys were doing, only saw them a couple times. He was putting down overflowing altar too and probably healing me in other ways cuz we were both invincible.

I agree in deathmatch too tanky is bad, only in situation where plp just have to kill you and get picked off by team mates over and over is it good, not for personal score for team score only, but few can be that non selfish. But for chaos ball there is no doubt tanky is ideal with massive healing because no matter how tanky the ball will eventually kill you itself.

precambria · October 2020

I hate to say this because tanks are super annoying in BG, but there are some builds that are pretty effective namely heal stacking CC spam warden (you know who you are) and harbinger tank necro does good damage and disrupts like a boss, most strong healers are also basically tanks. Look at the warden meta, with crimson and whatever other proc set they can just be tanks that hit like trucks and heal. In non deathmatch modes tanks are very useful