The entire Build is built around DW. You actually do not even need sergeants mail to be competitive with the setup, just run 7th legion/undaunted weaver and master DW

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

dougodell88ub17_ESO wrote: »

The entire Build is built around DW. You actually do not even need sergeants mail to be competitive with the setup, just run 7th legion/undaunted weaver and master DW

Doesn’t it seem odd that only one weapon type (dual wield) can run heavy attack builds with the capability of 1-2 shotting people? And isn’t it odd that a developer back in 2017 stated that it was intentional that Heavy Attack boosting sets like Seargent’s were not boosting the offhand dual wield heavy?

For the current dual wield double heavy attack double dip bonus from HA sets to be intentional it means that not only did Zenimax change their mind since that 2017 statement; but they also went against the balancing philosophy they gave for why they turned sets like the old Viper from burst into DOTs. It’s possible, but doesn’t make sense; which is why I think these dual wield Heavy Attack Builds are a possible exploit that is taking advantage of a potential bug/dev oversight.

If its not working as intended its not working as intended. All opinions are moot on this; so we should just assume, if we continue the discussion, that its intended

Video

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Video

There is a video clip posted one or two pages back

I mean..i guess

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Doesn’t it seem odd that only one weapon type (dual wield) can run heavy attack builds with the capability of 1-2 shotting people? And isn’t it odd that a developer back in 2017 stated that it was intentional that Heavy Attack boosting sets like Seargent’s were not boosting the offhand dual wield heavy?

For the current dual wield double heavy attack double dip bonus from HA sets to be intentional it means that not only did Zenimax change their mind since that 2017 statement; but they also went against the balancing philosophy they gave for why they turned sets like the old Viper from burst into DOTs. It’s possible, but doesn’t make sense; which is why I think these dual wield Heavy Attack Builds are a possible exploit that is taking advantage of a potential bug/dev oversight.

It's only viabel whit dw and 100% trash on 2h,SnB and bow.

"Sergeant's Mail:
2257 dmg added to heavies
x2 because of Dual Wield Zenimax Oversight: 4514
25% boost from malacath
50% boost from molten armament
70% boost from off balance
145% total boost -> 4514 x 2.45 = 11059.3"

Vs. Caluurion's Legacy: (5 items) When you deal direct Critical Damage with a single target attack, you launch a Fire, Ice, Shock, or Disease ball at your target that deals 14200 damage and applies a status effect. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds / Red mountain: 5 items: When you deal damage with a weapon, you spawn a volcano that erupts after 1 second, launching liquid hot lava at the closest enemy dealing 12840 Flame Damage. This effect can occur once every 8 seconds.


So... Sergeant has whit the double dip and 3 buffs still less dmg than Caluurion and some other procsets whitout buffs.

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Tolino: burst proc sets are rare and they all have long avoidable animations and long cool downs. You can literally spam heavy attacks and weave in an ability in between. And the math was 11000 bonus tooltip damage for seargents alone. Throw in undaunted infiltrator and your heavy attacks will do close to 20,000 bonus tool tip damage if target is off balance. Now let’s take off balance out of the equation so that there is literally no setup required besides holding the left mouse button down while moving and aiming in the general direction of your target:

2257 + 1685 = 3942 (seargent + infiltrator)
X2 dual wield = 7884
50% molten
25% malacath
7884 x 1.75 = 13797 bonus damage

On every single heavy attack, with no setup, for doing almost nothing but holding down the left mouse button while gaining resources back on each hit instead of spending resources.

If you watch the video clip from the previous page this translates to about 8200 damage In total from each double heavy attack (4100 each) plus whatever ability you weave in (such as 2k from rending slashes) against a basic medium armor character in actual gameplay after battle spirit and armor etc in a NOCP battleground where numbers are lower than in CP.

So each heavy attack burst is doing a minimum of 10k damage, and this isn’t even counting the dots ticking from rending slashes, or the two other dk dots, or the major breach they get.

If you count all of that -> almost any medium armor player under 25k health gets 2 shotted (2 heavy attack burst Rotations) by this build. And there is less than two seconds between the first burst and the second. Attempts to defend the 2 shot burst are countered with a fossilize. And players that happen to be at less than full health are often 1 shotted.

Venomous smite and Sheer venom average out to about 2k DPS each. So that ends up being 4k DPS. BRP bow (assuming a 6k tt) would add another 1.5k DPS, so 5.5k DPS total. Add another 15% with the necromancer passive, that then becomes 6325 DPS. All of this can be applied outside of melee range, and can be combined with a really high uptime of major defile, to make all the dots even more oppressive. So comparing the 13797 bonus damage you have come up with, you have to divide it by how long it takes to charge and land the heavy attack to get the "DPS". Since a dual wield heavy attack takes about 1.75 seconds, that 13797 becomes 7884 DPS; if you play like a target dummy and stand there without blocking, dodging, stunning to interrupt the charge up, LOSing, snaring then moving out of range, and most of all...actually attacking and pressuring the guy in the heavy attack build to put them on the defensive and strain their resources. They should make effective use of alternating between defensive counters to maximize resource efficiency, instead of trying to dodge 5 times in a row, or holding block and not casting anything else for seconds at a time. And as anyone who has actually tried a heavy attack build for themselves will tell you, positional desyncs tend to work against you rather than for you, many of your attacks are just going to whiff.

Notice how in order to get those heavy attack numbers, you have to use molten armaments which takes a skill slot and costs 4k mag for a stam build, and a mythic. The 6325 DPS of the proc dot setup doesn't even take into account the monster set that they can decide to wear, which can be another damage set, say sellestrix. That kind of dps when applied cannot be blocked, dodged, you cannot LOS it or run out of range, or stun them to prevent that damage ticking on you when its already on you. You may cleanse if you have the option, but that costs them resources, so cleansing a lot will be quite resource intensive. If there's multiple players using this combination of sets proccing this on you at the same time, RIP.

Of course all of this is without battle spirit or armor taken into account, yet despite that, the ratio of 7884 DPS compared to 6325 DPS shouldn't really even change that much. Actually, in fact I'd imagine because the damage from the dot proc build is going to be much more consistent, while the DPS from the heavy attack build is going to be more inconsistent and relegated to smaller (and yes, counterable if you know how) windows of time, to the point where the proc dot build surpasses the heavy attack build in overall DPS. After all, there's this certain stamcro who uses this same dot proc build and they basically deal top damage 9 times out of 10 in every BG that they are in.

And because necromancers not only have a class passive that boosts outgoing DOT damage by 15%, they also have a class passive that reduces incoming DOT damage by 15%! Not only are they not feeling the full effect of how oppressive all these DOTs can be for themselves, in fact it may be very well in their interest to have a DOT meta where they would naturally benefit from, do to their ability to maximize the potential of their DOTs and combining it with major defile spam, but also mitigate all the incoming DOT damage for themselves quite nicely. I'd imagine it would be difficult to fight these bow using proc spamming DOTmancers at their own game of DOT attrition, and that it might be preferable to fight them with burst damage...

The counters are too many esp on a necromancer of all things, he could still keep the ranged attrition based proc game play with minimal sacrifice and just swap a few things to deal with burst damage which is his builds weakness outside the Goliath forum ult.

Keeping the exact same sets he runs, he could drop dual wield as there is 0 need for it on his build outside the undodgeable execute, and slot a 2h for rally for a better heal instead of bloodcraze which is a poor heal and poor damage overtime effect especially since he doesn't run masters dual wield, and replace whirling blades with executioner which hits harder, and instead of slotting blade cloak he could run elude for major evasion/major expedition and less of a sustain hit or possibly race against time to use the mag pool for something other then the spirit mender forgoing major evasion for major expedition and a snare removal with minor force. Also by slotting a 2h he now has multiple options of potions to run instead of brutality pots, such as tri pots, major vitality pots, armor pots, immovable pots (hard counters fossilize spam btw) not to mention the healing on rally would give him the option to slot magum shot with the BRP bow for increased damage on the proc as well as counter a melee heavy attack build as well would make up for any damage lost by bloodcraze that he currently runs for the loss of the heal/snare.

All of that is just a simple option (one of the many) to counter the heavy attack build without changing much in terms of ranged style and sets, there are many other options with both sets/armor/weapon/skill layout that can counter Arcanasx especially on a stamina necromancer of all things.

Skullstachio wrote: »

I reckon it is a bug where dual-wielding is double-dipping from sergeant’s Mail, because I tested a dual-wield heavy attack with a full set of the Knight Slayer set, and the set only hit once alongside the two hits from dual wield, meaning that it is not double dipping on dual-wield heavy attacks.

And check the description of the two and tell me what the difference is here:

• Knight Slayer 5 items: Your fully-charged Heavy Attacks deal an additional 8% of an enemy's Max Health as Oblivion Damage. This can deal a maximum of up to 8000 Oblivion Damage.
• Sergeant’s Mail 5 items: Increases the damage of your fully-charged Heavy Attacks by 2257.

In truth: If Sergeant’s Mail is double dipping on dual-wield heavy attacks, shouldn’t that theoretically allow sets like knight Slayer to double dip as well since they share the same proc condition? Moreover, since Knight Slayer technically doesn’t double dip on fully charged dual-wield heavy attacks, neither should sets like sergeant’s mail.

Deep truth: If knight slayer was capable of double dipping like sergeant’s mail, you can only imagine just how dangerous it can be in a PVP environment and how much it would get abused to the point of being nerfed into the ground by a lot of the playerbase. Think real hard on that one.

@Skullstachio one is worded "...deal an additional..." And the other "...increases the damage of..."

Different wording means different mechanics fyi

I think jinnx has a point that this entire thread is directed at one person, even if the set gets nerfed he is still going to find a way to heavy attack you

Decimus: I absolutely agree that every class has extremely strong and even borderline overpowered builds. I'm fine with strong and overpowered builds if they are in line with the rules of the game. I personally believe that DK DW heavy attack builds are in fact violating the rules of the game. If you look through my post history over several years you will see that I have never complained about any skill, or any build in 6 years (except cloak spam several years ago when I actually mained a nightblade and felt it was too strong).

As for the dot proc set conversation that the defenders of these builds keep trying to derail the thread with: dot procs are very strong. Discussing the balance of DOT procs is a fair discussion to be had. However, not when the entire reason to do so is to deflect away from the topic of this post, or derail the thread. People can start a new thread about dot procs and complain as much as they want.

Overpowered builds don't typically bother me. But potentially broken builds need to at least be brought up to attention and discussed, and that's the point of this thread. If these double dip HA builds are intended, I will gladly accept it and move on. But it just doesn't seem logical or in line with what Zenimax has said about bonus burst damage over the last few years.

Qbiken wrote: »

Aren´t you the same person who defended "proc-sets" a few weeks ago in another thread? And now you complain about Seargent´s, one set that isn´t even remotely as unbalanced as many other things out there (smite, sheer venom etc...)

It´s so obvious that this thread was created due to some personal issue with the set, most likely being victim to it. So ye, can´t take threads like this serious

Yes, the OP was the same person. And then argued against everyone who pointed out how easily these can be abused with stacking mechanics because proc sets added build diversity.

"...These heavy attack sets are not even categorized as proc sets by the game, they are classified as bonus damage. They can crit and be modified by things like molten armaments, off balance, etc. Not to mention of-course being doubled by dual wield..."

Which is moot, the only thing you said you care about is if they double dip is a bug or not; otherwise its all good according to what you said earlier

Arcanasx wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Aren´t you the same person who defended "proc-sets" a few weeks ago in another thread? And now you complain about Seargent´s, one set that isn´t even remotely as unbalanced as many other things out there (smite, sheer venom etc...)

It´s so obvious that this thread was created due to some personal issue with the set, most likely being victim to it. So ye, can´t take threads like this serious

Yes, the OP was the same person. And then argued against everyone who pointed out how easily these can be abused with stacking mechanics because proc sets added build diversity.

Now nearly half of the pvp playerbase use the same 2 proc dot sets; build diversity achieved!

The patch is new, and Zenimax has data on what sets people are using. Most of the players who are using the double proc sets you describe don't actually do very well in BG's and are super squishy and have almost no ability to heal themselves. BG's have never been easier to play for strong players who have adapted to the new patch. If there are any glaring imbalances, Zenimax will have actual player data to go off (they can see what people wear and how they perform) instead of just listening to the loudest people in the forums. I'm personally seeing all kinds of builds in BG's -> stats, procs, defense, etc. Way more diversity than last patch. I do see a lot of nightblades running the two sets you're complaining about but they hardly ever do well (they are usually just really annoying).

BangX wrote: »

Anyone know how to run this setup on a stamblade?

Same as on other classes, except you don't need shock wall or dizzy to proc Off Balance (since you get that from Surprise Attack already): Sergeant DW front bar Infiltrator back bar+any monster set.

Proc off balance->DW heavies & spin2wins