Newish Tank - Advice please
happyhughes2001
✭✭✭✭
Hi all,
I’m a newish tank and I am running a frost staff back bar infused with crusher.
I use wall of elements to proc crusher. I have had two DD say I’m hurting their DPS by using that skill? I’m confused how that is. I asked them but they didn’t explain.
Are they mistaken or am I doing something wrong?
We cleared the dungeon. (Vet Mazz) and they were not rude or insulting but said not to use that skill.
Thanks in advance.
I’m a newish tank and I am running a frost staff back bar infused with crusher.
I use wall of elements to proc crusher. I have had two DD say I’m hurting their DPS by using that skill? I’m confused how that is. I asked them but they didn’t explain.
Are they mistaken or am I doing something wrong?
We cleared the dungeon. (Vet Mazz) and they were not rude or insulting but said not to use that skill.
Thanks in advance.
1
Best Answers
-
Lisutaris✭✭✭✭✭happyhughes2001 wrote: »Hi all,
I’m a newish tank and I am running a frost staff back bar infused with crusher.
I use wall of elements to proc crusher. I have had two DD say I’m hurting their DPS by using that skill? I’m confused how that is. I asked them but they didn’t explain.
Are they mistaken or am I doing something wrong?
We cleared the dungeon. (Vet Mazz) and they were not rude or insulting but said not to use that skill.
Thanks in advance.
You are doing nothing wrong. Everything is fine, they talked bs.
In a 3DD1Tank run, the tank goes lightning for offbalance procc yes. Otherwise, frost staff.
As you have already stated, lightning is usually used by healer for backbar.
Be it frost or lightning, you have to use the blockade, as only weapon skills that create an aoe effect on the ground, can reprocc it while you are on your other bar.7 -
Lisutaris✭✭✭✭✭happyhughes2001 wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »happyhughes2001 wrote: »Hi all,
I’m a newish tank and I am running a frost staff back bar infused with crusher.
I use wall of elements to proc crusher. I have had two DD say I’m hurting their DPS by using that skill? I’m confused how that is. I asked them but they didn’t explain.
Are they mistaken or am I doing something wrong?
We cleared the dungeon. (Vet Mazz) and they were not rude or insulting but said not to use that skill.
Thanks in advance.
It might be more accurate to say that you are not helping their DPS as much as you could be. A lot of tanks will go lighting staff to help with off balance. Dont get me wrong, using WoE to proc an infused crusher puts you ahead of most tanks in group-finder, but lighting is the best choice to maximize damage.
Thank you for the reply.
I thought that but the healer was supplying the off balance, or should the healer and the tank double up on the Lightning staffs for the best results?
Only one lightning staff is needed for offbalance uptime.
Keep in mind, that it is not a passive of the staff itself but the effect of the dmg type (lightning).
Every lightning dmg can procc and debuff off balance. (concussion)
For example, a lightning glyph on a fire staff will burn the enemy and also set off balance ... but uptime will not be so good.
As I am tanking myself (vcr and such stuff).... I would always use a frost staff over a lightning one for tanking, even in random grps. Answer is simple, one wrong bar swap, or lag on wrong bar so you can't swap back in time and you will get oneshotted or big dmg. A dead tank will hurt the grp dps way more than 1-3 off balance proccs.
Also, as mentioned it's not the tank job but healer job, so the real heal or fake heal should provide it... why even bother *shrug* not your (tank) job anyway, fake heal could also use lightning staff or glyph
. 6 -
Nirntrotter✭✭✭✭✭happyhughes2001 wrote: »Thank you all for the replies.
Is there a website that you tanks would recommended to learn about mechs of dungeons and trials etc.
Thanks again.
Check out The Tank Club: Discord Link
@happyhughes2001
There's also a related YouTube Channel.2
-
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭happyhughes2001 wrote: »Hi all,
I’m a newish tank and I am running a frost staff back bar infused with crusher.
I use wall of elements to proc crusher. I have had two DD say I’m hurting their DPS by using that skill? I’m confused how that is. I asked them but they didn’t explain.
Are they mistaken or am I doing something wrong?
We cleared the dungeon. (Vet Mazz) and they were not rude or insulting but said not to use that skill.
Thanks in advance.
It might be more accurate to say that you are not helping their DPS as much as you could be. A lot of tanks will go lighting staff to help with off balance. Dont get me wrong, using WoE to proc an infused crusher puts you ahead of most tanks in group-finder, but lighting is the best choice to maximize damage.3 -
happyhughes2001✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »happyhughes2001 wrote: »Hi all,
I’m a newish tank and I am running a frost staff back bar infused with crusher.
I use wall of elements to proc crusher. I have had two DD say I’m hurting their DPS by using that skill? I’m confused how that is. I asked them but they didn’t explain.
Are they mistaken or am I doing something wrong?
We cleared the dungeon. (Vet Mazz) and they were not rude or insulting but said not to use that skill.
Thanks in advance.
It might be more accurate to say that you are not helping their DPS as much as you could be. A lot of tanks will go lighting staff to help with off balance. Dont get me wrong, using WoE to proc an infused crusher puts you ahead of most tanks in group-finder, but lighting is the best choice to maximize damage.
Thank you for the reply.
I thought that but the healer was supplying the off balance, or should the healer and the tank double up on the Lightning staffs for the best results?0 -
Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
✭When running in an organized group, healer and tank need to agree on who's supplying off balance.
In randoms (PUGs), it's generally safe to assume that the healer will be fake = no offbalance, so you want to provide your own.
If you can, carry both a frost staff and a lightning staff of the same set, so you can switch to suit the situation at hand.2 -
happyhughes2001✭✭✭✭When running in an organized group, healer and tank need to agree on who's supplying off balance.
In randoms (PUGs), it's generally safe to assume that the healer will be fake = no offbalance, so you want to provide your own.
If you can, carry both a frost staff and a lightning staff of the same set, so you can switch to suit the situation at hand.
Thank you.
I’ll do that from now on.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭happyhughes2001 wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »happyhughes2001 wrote: »Hi all,
I’m a newish tank and I am running a frost staff back bar infused with crusher.
I use wall of elements to proc crusher. I have had two DD say I’m hurting their DPS by using that skill? I’m confused how that is. I asked them but they didn’t explain.
Are they mistaken or am I doing something wrong?
We cleared the dungeon. (Vet Mazz) and they were not rude or insulting but said not to use that skill.
Thanks in advance.
It might be more accurate to say that you are not helping their DPS as much as you could be. A lot of tanks will go lighting staff to help with off balance. Dont get me wrong, using WoE to proc an infused crusher puts you ahead of most tanks in group-finder, but lighting is the best choice to maximize damage.
Thank you for the reply.
I thought that but the healer was supplying the off balance, or should the healer and the tank double up on the Lightning staffs for the best results?
That would be overkill. I am admittedly, not an expert on off balance, but there are cooldowns involved these days. I dont think double dipping on a lighting staff is going to effectively increase your uptime, but please, someone chime in if I am wrong.
Also trying to remember the last time I was in a groupfinder were both the healer was giving off balance and a tank was keeping up an infused crusher to the best of their ability. Sounds like at least the support had their acts together, even if the DPS was a bit whiny. haha1 -
Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Yes, off balance has a cooldown - used to be 15 seconds, not sure if it has changed recently. The cooldown is "attached" to the enemy not the player, so there's no real benefit to stacking sources of off balance from multiple players.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »happyhughes2001 wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »happyhughes2001 wrote: »Hi all,
I’m a newish tank and I am running a frost staff back bar infused with crusher.
I use wall of elements to proc crusher. I have had two DD say I’m hurting their DPS by using that skill? I’m confused how that is. I asked them but they didn’t explain.
Are they mistaken or am I doing something wrong?
We cleared the dungeon. (Vet Mazz) and they were not rude or insulting but said not to use that skill.
Thanks in advance.
It might be more accurate to say that you are not helping their DPS as much as you could be. A lot of tanks will go lighting staff to help with off balance. Dont get me wrong, using WoE to proc an infused crusher puts you ahead of most tanks in group-finder, but lighting is the best choice to maximize damage.
Thank you for the reply.
I thought that but the healer was supplying the off balance, or should the healer and the tank double up on the Lightning staffs for the best results?
That would be overkill. I am admittedly, not an expert on off balance, but there are cooldowns involved these days. I dont think double dipping on a lighting staff is going to effectively increase your uptime, but please, someone chime in if I am wrong.
I've also encountered such situations, it's not common but happens sometimes. Shame if both DPS are bad, since even massively buffed low DPS is still low... but I digress.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Also trying to remember the last time I was in a groupfinder were both the healer was giving off balance and a tank was keeping up an infused crusher to the best of their ability. Sounds like at least the support had their acts together, even if the DPS was a bit whiny. haha0 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭happyhughes2001 wrote: »Hi all,
I’m a newish tank and I am running a frost staff back bar infused with crusher.
I use wall of elements to proc crusher. I have had two DD say I’m hurting their DPS by using that skill? I’m confused how that is. I asked them but they didn’t explain.
Are they mistaken or am I doing something wrong?
We cleared the dungeon. (Vet Mazz) and they were not rude or insulting but said not to use that skill.
Thanks in advance.
Honestly, if DDs are accusing you of hurting their DPS, the fact is they are being WAAAAAY too elitist for a vet DLC dungeon. Its not a trial....and even if it was a trial, its not a leaderboard run so it really doesn't matter. I very rarely even equip a lightning staff in dungeons. You have 2 types of 4 man groups in general....those who do abysmal DPS, in which case you aren't going to boost their damage by a huge amount anyway....and those who do plenty of damage and probably don't care what you are running as a tank anyway. The ONLY time anyone has asked me to run something specific in 4 man content is when I go with guildies or friends for challenger achievements, they may ask me slot elemental drain to help with sustain, or alternatively I will often run a resto staff backbar for combat prayer instead if their sustain is fine(assuming I am running with 3 DPS).
In trials(especially more difficult ones) its something else entirely, once you get to trials, there is little room for doing your own thing as a tank....you will be told exactly what equip to run and what skills to use, this is why I am surprised that a couple of random DDs in a dungeon as easy as vRoM would tell you that you are hurting their damage(that dungeon only takes 20k DPS from each DD to complete without issue). As a tank, buffing group DPS is fine...but only if you first survive, keep the things you need taunted, and keep all ads grouped up...only after that should you be worrying about doing other things like buffing group damage, mitigating damage from mobs, or healing. Your first priority is to tank, you secondary priority is buff group members and debuff mobs, and tertiary priority is to heal(healing would be more important, but generally your spell damage is so weak that your heals aren't very effective anyway)3 -
happyhughes2001✭✭✭✭Thank you all for the replies.
Is there a website that you tanks would recommended to learn about mechs of dungeons and trials etc.
Thanks again.0 -
Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭People are starting to become rather unrealistic about what they want to pack on the tanks.
Ideally they want to roll 3dps and have the tank supply:
- Aggro, taunt, CC, chains while
- Help healing themselves and the team while
- Apply sustain through Eledrain and Symphony while
- applying debuff to enemy through lightning staff even though it isn't meant to block with while
- Increasing the overall DPS through Warhorn while
- Wearing medium armor so they can proc all their synergies while
- Taking damage from monsters that at its base does 140.000 damage
This from DPS who 9 times out of 10 wouldn't be able to tank themselves a DLC vet hardmode with all the selfish gear slapped on to them and a dedicated healer to help.
If you were rolling with a PUG group they should just thank their lucky star a Tank even bothered showing up to reject city aka the group finder. I'm serious, many of these use it because they can't behave themselves and blame everyone so nobody wants to play with them.
You were fine OP.3 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Only one lightning staff is needed for offbalance uptime.
Keep in mind, that it is not a passive of the staff itself but the effect of the dmg type (lightning).
@Lisutaris it is the passive of the blockade of shock itself, concussion auto procs minor vulnerability, while lightning wall puts concussed things off balance. So it does depend on the staff itself.Edited by zvavi on 10 September 2020 10:490 -
daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Could you be using the ice wall in such a way that you're slowing down trash packs and making them take longer to reach you and the AoE the DDs would be putting on or very close to you? I could see that hurting the group's DPS if they're expecting you to stack everything on you ASAP. Still, that's an assumption on their part and should be discussed rather than demanded.0 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭But that should be the tank's prerogative how they want to stack adds. If they do it with the potential slow of a frost staff in mind, that's their business.
Also, I don't find the slow that noticeable. It usually just means that the adds take longer running within any AoEs, and that's a good thing. If those DDs really felt the damage hit of adds being outside their AoEs for a split second longer, they're at a level where they can deal with that. Placing the AoE a tiny bit further out, would've nullified the problem.
---
Let's be honest - "you're using Blockade, that's hurting our DPS" is simply nonsense.
Wild mass guessing what they mybe may have meant is a bit futile. All examples that we can imagine of the tank using Blockade hurting anyone's damage, are really special and rare cases or unfortunate combinations, and the impact is minimal anyway.1 -
Lisutaris✭✭✭✭✭
Only one lightning staff is needed for offbalance uptime.
Keep in mind, that it is not a passive of the staff itself but the effect of the dmg type (lightning).
@Lisutaris it is the passive of the blockade of shock itself, concussion auto procs minor vulnerability, while lightning wall puts concussed things off balance. So it does depend on the staff itself.
True. Was too focused on the status effect and 8% dmg, not the offbalance.
From UESP:
Concussed is a debilitating effect applied by many Shock Damage effects. It deals additional single Shock Damage tick of damage, and also makes targets more vulnerable to certain subsequent Shock Damage effects, such as Wall of Storms setting Concussed enemies Off Balance. The status can be removed with a Cleansing effect.
But it is still healer job to do that, not tank.1 -
Astrid✭✭✭✭✭Aside from off balance which everyone has mentioned, you’re doing absolutely nothing wrong. Some tank setups require a frost staff over a lightning and off balance comes from the other support(s). Crusher you’re most certainly contributing to their dps as it reduces enemy resistances and minus the lack of off balance it’s really not an issue. Ignore them, unless you’re min/max in a raid scenario run whatever pleases you. Some tanks run bow or dual wield backbar depending on the group/experience level so it’s not one size fits all.0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
But it is still healer job to do that, not tank.
When I pug vDLC on my main (magsorc) many times I degrade to ha attack build with lightning staves and elemental drain because nobody is providing off balance, drain, resources, major breach.
So ye, you can say it is healer's job. We all know it is healer's job. But even if you get a healer in dungeon queue, 60% of them didn't even hear of elemental drain, let alone wall of elements0 -
Michae✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I seriously read this as "New fish tank" and got excited for a cool new housing item.
"I bear the cruel weight of certainty. Total, absolute, relentless certainty. People rarely comprehend the luxury of doubt... the freedom that comes with indecision. I envy you."
―Sotha Sil
@Michae PC/EU0 -
Kurat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭For them to even complain about something like that in pug dungeon is simply stupid. They should be happy that they got tank at all and more importantly a real one.
And let me guess their dps was like 20k at most.0 -
Dovakhan✭✭✭First and only piece of advice for a new Tank: everybody has opinions on what a tank should do. Most of them wrong like those dd's you found.
I also found DD's who were useless enough to die in the very first group of NORMAL enemies in a Vet dungeon (Mazz, too. That dungeon seems to attract mediocre DD's for some reason), and they put the blame on me because I usually crowd control normal groups of enemies, then tank bosses. People are very quick to blame others for their own incompetence.
Just play as you want. As long as you crowd control enemies (blockade of storms, stuns like time stop and turn evil, unrelenting grip or other abilities to pull enemies if you manage to make them work, etc.), and tank bosses correctly (draw aggro, debuff, keep yourself alive, again pull adds if you can), you're already doing the minimum job required from a tank. Wheter you wanna build on that base or not it's your business
And also, experience has taught me that a good measure for knowing wheter you're playing with good DD's or not is when you go Time Stop - Sanguine - Blockade, then recharge your magicka with a quick heavy attack, and by then all enemies should be dead. If not, then it's the DD's fault, plain and simple.
In fact, good DD's should even give you some difficulty at locking at an enemy for you to recharge your magicka with a heavy attack.Edited by Dovakhan on 11 September 2020 23:380 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Never mind.Edited by MasterSpatula on 11 September 2020 23:10"A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle0