Ball groups need heavy direct nerfs

ecru · July 2020

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

So a sorc wont be able to cast streak a few times to get away? A dk wont be able to use talons/breath into leap?

The issue is purge:

Snared? Purge
Rooted? Purge
Stunned? Purge
Dots? Purge
Debuffs? Purge

Just make alliance war purge a self purge only and increase the cost. Balls would then become easier to kill. Instead of ruining the game for everyone.

Yeah come at me ballers.

It sounds like a simple solution, but.. good ballers would adapt by making groups of certain 2-3 classes with class purges on sort of rotation for each (like a Necro casting Hexproof every few seconds to take out a layer of stuff away, imagine 10-20+ Necros, with several Earthgores, and certain 5p sets on several people in the group so the individual purge proc it does per target is cleansing stuff automatically by many on cooldown).. these sets increased number would sacrifice some of their damage though, but they could gain it back by growing their numbers up too.

So let them adapt like that. It should be an extremely daunting task to put together a large group that is basically immune to all dots/debuffs. To put together such a strong comp, you should have to build around it. If they adapt by building around it with all necros and purge sets, good for them, they're at least making some sacrifices for it. The problem is that right now you don't have to build around it, you get it with a few group members slotting it and using it regularly, there is no real sacrifice necessary, just have healers work in purges in between casting regen and other heals and.. welp, that's it.

idk · July 2020

ecru wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

So a sorc wont be able to cast streak a few times to get away? A dk wont be able to use talons/breath into leap?

The issue is purge:

Snared? Purge
Rooted? Purge
Stunned? Purge
Dots? Purge
Debuffs? Purge

Just make alliance war purge a self purge only and increase the cost. Balls would then become easier to kill. Instead of ruining the game for everyone.

Yeah come at me ballers.

It sounds like a simple solution, but.. good ballers would adapt by making groups of certain 2-3 classes with class purges on sort of rotation for each (like a Necro casting Hexproof every few seconds to take out a layer of stuff away, imagine 10-20+ Necros, with several Earthgores, and certain 5p sets on several people in the group so the individual purge proc it does per target is cleansing stuff automatically by many on cooldown).. these sets increased number would sacrifice some of their damage though, but they could gain it back by growing their numbers up too.

So let them adapt like that. It should be an extremely daunting task to put together a large group that is basically immune to all dots/debuffs. To put together such a strong comp, you should have to build around it. If they adapt by building around it with all necros and purge sets, good for them, they're at least making some sacrifices for it. The problem is that right now you don't have to build around it, you get it with a few group members slotting it and using it regularly, there is no real sacrifice necessary, just have healers work in purges in between casting regen and other heals and.. welp, that's it.

What is wrong with a good group with a good leader working to take down zergs?

Fawn4287 · July 2020

idk wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

So a sorc wont be able to cast streak a few times to get away? A dk wont be able to use talons/breath into leap?

The issue is purge:

Snared? Purge
Rooted? Purge
Stunned? Purge
Dots? Purge
Debuffs? Purge

Just make alliance war purge a self purge only and increase the cost. Balls would then become easier to kill. Instead of ruining the game for everyone.

Yeah come at me ballers.

It sounds like a simple solution, but.. good ballers would adapt by making groups of certain 2-3 classes with class purges on sort of rotation for each (like a Necro casting Hexproof every few seconds to take out a layer of stuff away, imagine 10-20+ Necros, with several Earthgores, and certain 5p sets on several people in the group so the individual purge proc it does per target is cleansing stuff automatically by many on cooldown).. these sets increased number would sacrifice some of their damage though, but they could gain it back by growing their numbers up too.

So let them adapt like that. It should be an extremely daunting task to put together a large group that is basically immune to all dots/debuffs. To put together such a strong comp, you should have to build around it. If they adapt by building around it with all necros and purge sets, good for them, they're at least making some sacrifices for it. The problem is that right now you don't have to build around it, you get it with a few group members slotting it and using it regularly, there is no real sacrifice necessary, just have healers work in purges in between casting regen and other heals and.. welp, that's it.

What is wrong with a good group with a good leader working to take down zergs?

The same thing that was wrong with groups of nord wardens in seventh and fury having 30k health, 6k weapon damage and Dbreaker, subterranean spin to winning anything that crossed it path. They could stack vigor too which is the same problem with rapid regen stackign, it isn’t very fair to have people running around with 30k resists pumping out that much damage and cross healing.

technohic · July 2020

idk wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

So a sorc wont be able to cast streak a few times to get away? A dk wont be able to use talons/breath into leap?

The issue is purge:

Snared? Purge
Rooted? Purge
Stunned? Purge
Dots? Purge
Debuffs? Purge

Just make alliance war purge a self purge only and increase the cost. Balls would then become easier to kill. Instead of ruining the game for everyone.

Yeah come at me ballers.

It sounds like a simple solution, but.. good ballers would adapt by making groups of certain 2-3 classes with class purges on sort of rotation for each (like a Necro casting Hexproof every few seconds to take out a layer of stuff away, imagine 10-20+ Necros, with several Earthgores, and certain 5p sets on several people in the group so the individual purge proc it does per target is cleansing stuff automatically by many on cooldown).. these sets increased number would sacrifice some of their damage though, but they could gain it back by growing their numbers up too.

So let them adapt like that. It should be an extremely daunting task to put together a large group that is basically immune to all dots/debuffs. To put together such a strong comp, you should have to build around it. If they adapt by building around it with all necros and purge sets, good for them, they're at least making some sacrifices for it. The problem is that right now you don't have to build around it, you get it with a few group members slotting it and using it regularly, there is no real sacrifice necessary, just have healers work in purges in between casting regen and other heals and.. welp, that's it.

What is wrong with a good group with a good leader working to take down zergs?

This line has become a red herring. Most ball groups are not going out and engaging zergs. Rather; they find a spot where they cant be ignored and create a concentration of players into a zerg while they run around farming.

And watch this and tell me you cant be both a ball group and a zerg at the same time.

https://youtu.be/Xo-krb1jxFc

Fawn4287 · July 2020

Shanan wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

So a sorc wont be able to cast streak a few times to get away? A dk wont be able to use talons/breath into leap?

The issue is purge:

Snared? Purge
Rooted? Purge
Stunned? Purge
Dots? Purge
Debuffs? Purge

Just make alliance war purge a self purge only and increase the cost. Balls would then become easier to kill. Instead of ruining the game for everyone.

Yeah come at me ballers.

It sounds like a simple solution, but.. good ballers would adapt by making groups of certain 2-3 classes with class purges on sort of rotation for each (like a Necro casting Hexproof every few seconds to take out a layer of stuff away, imagine 10-20+ Necros, with several Earthgores, and certain 5p sets on several people in the group so the individual purge proc it does per target is cleansing stuff automatically by many on cooldown).. these sets increased number would sacrifice some of their damage though, but they could gain it back by growing their numbers up too.

So let them adapt like that. It should be an extremely daunting task to put together a large group that is basically immune to all dots/debuffs. To put together such a strong comp, you should have to build around it. If they adapt by building around it with all necros and purge sets, good for them, they're at least making some sacrifices for it. The problem is that right now you don't have to build around it, you get it with a few group members slotting it and using it regularly, there is no real sacrifice necessary, just have healers work in purges in between casting regen and other heals and.. welp, that's it.

What is wrong with a good group with a good leader working to take down zergs?

This line has become a red herring. Most ball groups are not going out and engaging zergs. Rather; they find a spot where they cant be ignored and create a concentration of players into a zerg while they run around farming.

And watch this and tell me you cant be both a ball group and a zerg at the same time.
https://youtu.be/Xo-krb1jxFc

[Quoted post was removed]

Wow this is the exact reason why the cyrodil main campaign is unplayable 18+ hours of the day. Healing and AOEs have been butchered because these regen spamming outnumbering zerglings coordinate a couple of appropriately times negates then actually clip and post this stuff. I can’t believe the drawbacks I endure to play solo whilst this zerg of 1 button mashing healbots are so unbearable to fight they wipe everyone else, kill the server population and basically play PvDoor. Thanks for not only causing the absurd blanket nerfs but for also halving the PvP population in the last 18 months.

technohic · July 2020

LOL as much as I enjoy laughing about that proud video of these "Outnumbered ball groups taking on zergs," to be fair; they are fighting other ball groups there who's awesome tactics don't work outnumbered apparently when someone does the same to them. A bit of a paradox I think, but fighting each other in a way is respectable.

Gorilla · July 2020

DTAmoral wrote: »

@Major_Lag Its not brainless crossheal stacking and purge spamming. It might look that way, but if you ever joined a good ball group you would hear the coms, and understand what is happening.

You cant nerf ball groups. You can fix skills that shouldnt work the way they do sure (Radiating Regen is the main one). However you are never going to beat coordination, and overall sweaty game play. 10 Players that have gone out of their way to figure out the best way to kill random players shouldn't crutched.

If you dont like Ball Groups, dont fight them, you are probably going to lose anyway. If you small scale, or solo then you know not to fight a ball group you stay in your lane. If you are even a somewhat respectable/known small scaler, or solo player most good ball groups leave you alone. They dont care to kill 1 player, they are looking for the other ball groups or zergs to fight.

With every change that comes to ESO ball groups are always looking to see what they can change to get the most impact out of x skill or set.

Good ball groups are top dog in Cyro for a reason. They are sweaty players. Then zergs because a 50 man random zerg is going to beat any small scale, or solo player. Then after that you have your solo, and small scale players. Some of these are fantastic players, and they do really well in an out numbered fight, but at the end of the day your 3 man small scale group isnt going to do much against a zerg, or a ball group. You just have to stay in your lane.

I think we're better off saying good groups, versus good ball groups. Ball groups fail outside constricted spaces. Out of the tower or circuiting stairs they get eaten alive by almost any player group, and small scale players will rip them apart in open territory.

Moonsorrow · July 2020

idk wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

So a sorc wont be able to cast streak a few times to get away? A dk wont be able to use talons/breath into leap?

The issue is purge:

Snared? Purge
Rooted? Purge
Stunned? Purge
Dots? Purge
Debuffs? Purge

Just make alliance war purge a self purge only and increase the cost. Balls would then become easier to kill. Instead of ruining the game for everyone.

Yeah come at me ballers.

It sounds like a simple solution, but.. good ballers would adapt by making groups of certain 2-3 classes with class purges on sort of rotation
for each (like a Necro casting Hexproof every few seconds to take out a layer of stuff away, imagine 10-20+ Necros, with several Earthgores, and certain 5p sets on several people in the group so the individual purge proc it does per target is cleansing stuff automatically by many on cooldown).. these sets increased number would sacrifice some of their damage though, but they could gain it back by growing their numbers up too.

I know many are probably getting ready for this conclusion and happening eventually, from observations. I see many known groups having Snow Treaders on, cannot mistake that effect when they chase me at keep upstairs haha.

So they do not have to worry about Roots/snares. Siege/AoE layers will hurt though without "Purge bots".

But as said, groups would adapt with more Earthgores and more Purge set amounts and favoring classes that can self-purge as efficiently as possible as part of the "train rotation" so everyone would become their own Purge bots every few seconds on top of purge set procs from others.

Also Alliance war purge still has some use on PVE on some trials and so on, not all classes got one so, favoritism would spread to some pve raids too on classes. Okay well, it always has favouritism on current meta classes anyways so kinda moot point that i know.

Oh and hi btw, i miss playing on EP side - most fun chat there due to you and few others. Banana and smurf chat so different world.. on Grey Host. Yeah, Zone Chat true PVP endgame these days. And Outfits.

Gotta say that i dislike hard cooldowns like 3 seconds thingies now as tests will happen.. muh combos and fluid combat would end. So not saying those are the solution also. Would have to change whole combat and most classes/skills completely.

And just after we done like 2 years of the current Audit. Plz no more of the same type of big changes for a year or 2.

There was one moment when there was not so laggy (also during MYM when not many coordinated ballers on same campaigns at same time), when sieges did hit the bugged hard damage, groups melted and people had to spread out and also siege other parts of keep than MG, going through sieges and Oils was impossibru. So Cyro felt again more like intended, people had to attack many sides and wipes happened instantly making big fights lag less when groups went elsewhere after wipes.

But i am a weird mostly solo & small-scale player in that i LIKE having guild groups and old traditional groups at Cyro, it makes it feel like a war and large scale PVP is supposed to happen and is very fun for those who are in those guilds/groups. BGS becoming Solo only queue was fun for true solos, but many lost their most fun thing in this game, playing pvp together with a friend in a fast action bgs.

So a complicated thing with no easy solution, some people are bound to lose fun they used to have, i see no happy end on this for everyone, sadly.

I do wish the lag was gone, but changing the game to slow cooldown game to get it? Please no. I SO hope there is another solution than that. I am here still because of the fast combat after years. There are other games with cooldowns and they are boring and slow, hope this does not become one of them.

This wall of text was not really directed at you Kas, just general concerns and ramblings to anyone who bothers to read more than couple first words at 4am my time. I should go back to Cyrodiil now.

Actually, a good leader will have players running the specific skills they want in the group and those that run in the group will be happy to comply. That same leader will sometimes call out for specific skills. It is really beautiful to watch in action when a group of 5-6 takes out a zerg several times their size.

Agreed, as said - i like coordinated groups and it is a thing of beauty when they function like a machine together and take out huge blobs like a harvester of sorrow that cleanses up keeps and swims in AP and happiness.

Yes, i have been a long time member in such a group in the past for a few years. One of my accounts (i got 2, one does not simply play ESO with just one account, not enough character slots for all the Alts one needs lol) was dedicated to PVP raiding in a discord group. While i played on every "role", i am one of them weirdlings that actually volunteered for being the healer/Purge bot and also the "Rapids Bosmer" (remember when Bosmer still had the % stam recovery increase racial passive, had some crazy recovery then lol, maximum efficiency). "I gothcha honeys!" (Knowers know and might recognize/remember me haha)

Nowadays almost true solo, but occasionally having DUO fun with a special someone who plays all classes/specs like me and has years of experience too. Lately (with all the performance issues too) we do not "tryhard" so much anymore, but just focus on fun setups, trolling blobs, doing traps for those who chase.. run in towers, or go yolo against 20+ out in open or at keep flags, not matter.. brutal aggression - epic win or die trying! It`s not so serious anymore since often bar swaps and stuff not even work so why stress about things on such scenarios.

Still, even after all the indirect (or direct) nerfs to solo & small-scalers, can still pull off wins against mini-zergs if can make them stretch out too far from each others even for a moment or get them all on a choke point, ultidump (and a bit of Harmony) even from 2 person "group" can still take out a not so organized group (that has not half of them healztanky templars/necros with Barriers popping up left and right). 2020, and still many are happy to become a Vicious Death fireworks on their friends to share the death recap together. Ahh, good times still. When not get run over by a 30-50 people megablob with lag those bring. Then really nothing that can except trying to escape and play the "chase me to Bleakers baby!" game.

All this talk, uhh.. typing made me in the mood to get back to Cyrodiil, land of opportunities, dangers and death!
Weather girl Sorrow says: "It's gonna rain AP today, bring your umbrella-ellaa-ellaa.. ee ee oo.." (okay i`ll stop now lol)

See ya all there and have a good & fun day everyone!

Snowgoons · July 2020

It's the way the grouping system works and having so many people at once and so many shared skills.

They need to cap pvp groups at a smaller number, and give some sort of negative for running around with more than that.

a zerg debuff.

idk · July 2020

technohic wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

So a sorc wont be able to cast streak a few times to get away? A dk wont be able to use talons/breath into leap?

The issue is purge:

Snared? Purge
Rooted? Purge
Stunned? Purge
Dots? Purge
Debuffs? Purge

Just make alliance war purge a self purge only and increase the cost. Balls would then become easier to kill. Instead of ruining the game for everyone.

Yeah come at me ballers.

It sounds like a simple solution, but.. good ballers would adapt by making groups of certain 2-3 classes with class purges on sort of rotation for each (like a Necro casting Hexproof every few seconds to take out a layer of stuff away, imagine 10-20+ Necros, with several Earthgores, and certain 5p sets on several people in the group so the individual purge proc it does per target is cleansing stuff automatically by many on cooldown).. these sets increased number would sacrifice some of their damage though, but they could gain it back by growing their numbers up too.

So let them adapt like that. It should be an extremely daunting task to put together a large group that is basically immune to all dots/debuffs. To put together such a strong comp, you should have to build around it. If they adapt by building around it with all necros and purge sets, good for them, they're at least making some sacrifices for it. The problem is that right now you don't have to build around it, you get it with a few group members slotting it and using it regularly, there is no real sacrifice necessary, just have healers work in purges in between casting regen and other heals and.. welp, that's it.

What is wrong with a good group with a good leader working to take down zergs?

This line has become a red herring. Most ball groups are not going out and engaging zergs. Rather; they find a spot where they cant be ignored and create a concentration of players into a zerg while they run around farming.

And watch this and tell me you cant be both a ball group and a zerg at the same time.

Since early on in the game players have set up "traps" to farm AP from those that easily fall for such shenanigans. What was most funny is the same players that fell for it would rush back thinking they can win the second, third, fourth, etc, time yet die again. It is great XP to be on the right side of that.

A well-organized group with an experienced leader not only does not keep sending them people into traps but they also figure out how to destroy groups several times there size.

idk · July 2020

Snowgoons wrote: »

It's the way the grouping system works and having so many people at once and so many shared skills.

They need to cap pvp groups at a smaller number, and give some sort of negative for running around with more than that.

a zerg debuff.

As someone who has seen what has transpired in Cyrodiill over the years I can say with certainly this will do nothing as a cap at 12 just means they run two 12-man groups together. I have seen 70+ characters in a group that ran 3 groups together back when Cyriodiil has a significantly larger player cap.

It really is that simple and I doubt many want a debuff just because we happen to be near others as that would mean most keep attacks and defenses would make players extremely weak.

GoodFella146 · July 2020

Perhaps the answer is to simply adjust how much ap each ball grouper gets. If they would get 6k for a taken castle, perhaps divide that by 24?

idk · July 2020

GoodFella146 wrote: »

Perhaps the answer is to simply adjust how much ap each ball grouper gets. If they would get 6k for a taken castle, perhaps divide that by 24?

The size of the groups are almost irrelevant when keeps are being attacked/defended as people flock to the keeps where the action is. The server is still dealing with just as much if it is 3 24-man groups at the keep vs 6 12-man groups. Yes, we can take that a step farther and make it 12 6-man groups.

Heck, even when I not with my guild and running solo I tend to be near the action because I like to hunt gankers (mostly NBs). If I am close enough to the keep my actions contribute to the lag.

crazepdx · July 2020

Just from watching them I think they should make purge of more then 1 status effect a high cost ultimate. Make other purges 1 status per cast. Either yourself or someone else in group. Only 1 active healing effect per person at a time plus a self heal. As it stands the only way to break through the ridiculous healing and insta purge is with multiple negates which are sorc only and are ultimates.

LuxLunae · July 2020

technohic wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

So a sorc wont be able to cast streak a few times to get away? A dk wont be able to use talons/breath into leap?

The issue is purge:

Snared? Purge
Rooted? Purge
Stunned? Purge
Dots? Purge
Debuffs? Purge

Just make alliance war purge a self purge only and increase the cost. Balls would then become easier to kill. Instead of ruining the game for everyone.

Yeah come at me ballers.

It sounds like a simple solution, but.. good ballers would adapt by making groups of certain 2-3 classes with class purges on sort of rotation for each (like a Necro casting Hexproof every few seconds to take out a layer of stuff away, imagine 10-20+ Necros, with several Earthgores, and certain 5p sets on several people in the group so the individual purge proc it does per target is cleansing stuff automatically by many on cooldown).. these sets increased number would sacrifice some of their damage though, but they could gain it back by growing their numbers up too.

So let them adapt like that. It should be an extremely daunting task to put together a large group that is basically immune to all dots/debuffs. To put together such a strong comp, you should have to build around it. If they adapt by building around it with all necros and purge sets, good for them, they're at least making some sacrifices for it. The problem is that right now you don't have to build around it, you get it with a few group members slotting it and using it regularly, there is no real sacrifice necessary, just have healers work in purges in between casting regen and other heals and.. welp, that's it.

What is wrong with a good group with a good leader working to take down zergs?

This line has become a red herring. Most ball groups are not going out and engaging zergs. Rather; they find a spot where they cant be ignored and create a concentration of players into a zerg while they run around farming.

And watch this and tell me you cant be both a ball group and a zerg at the same time.
https://youtu.be/Xo-krb1jxFc

That video was dhisgahsting and the worst thing i've ever seen. rapid regens looking like freaking lighting strikes through the crowds...

Fawn4287 · July 2020

crazepdx wrote: »

Just from watching them I think they should make purge of more then 1 status effect a high cost ultimate. Make other purges 1 status per cast. Either yourself or someone else in group. Only 1 active healing effect per person at a time plus a self heal. As it stands the only way to break through the ridiculous healing and insta purge is with multiple negates which are sorc only and are ultimates.

And when was the last time you saw a non ball grouped magsorc run negate? Its the same as borrowed time, I’ve never seen anything other than zerglings or ballgroup players run this ability, the game introducing skills to counter groups and are used exclusively by groups

crazepdx · July 2020

Fawn4287 wrote: »

crazepdx wrote: »

Just from watching them I think they should make purge of more then 1 status effect a high cost ultimate. Make other purges 1 status per cast. Either yourself or someone else in group. Only 1 active healing effect per person at a time plus a self heal. As it stands the only way to break through the ridiculous healing and insta purge is with multiple negates which are sorc only and are ultimates.

And when was the last time you saw a non ball grouped magsorc run negate? Its the same as borrowed time, I’ve never seen anything other than zerglings or ballgroup players run this ability, the game introducing skills to counter groups and are used exclusively by groups

That's the problem. Unless you are running a ball group you don't have a chance of stopping a ball group. Last night in cyro I watched a ball set up in a keep. People were using meatbags and cold fire in them while hitting them with range. Not one of the ball group died due to the purges and broken healing.

VaranisArano · July 2020

Fawn4287 wrote: »

crazepdx wrote: »

Just from watching them I think they should make purge of more then 1 status effect a high cost ultimate. Make other purges 1 status per cast. Either yourself or someone else in group. Only 1 active healing effect per person at a time plus a self heal. As it stands the only way to break through the ridiculous healing and insta purge is with multiple negates which are sorc only and are ultimates.

And when was the last time you saw a non ball grouped magsorc run negate? Its the same as borrowed time, I’ve never seen anything other than zerglings or ballgroup players run this ability, the game introducing skills to counter groups and are used exclusively by groups

This is true, and I suspect it's because a Negate has to be capitalized on. It doesn't kill players on its own. A zerg-surfing sorc could throw Negate on a ball group, but if the PUGs or randoms don't attack before the ball group moves out, they just wasted an expensive ultimate for nothing.

Compare that to a grouped sorc who can drop their Negate on command and watch their group immediately take advantage of the window of opportunity.

Or for another example, I run Barrier even when scrapping around in early morning small scale fights. In a group, this lets me protect my group exactly as we jump into the middle of a scrap, push into an objectivee, or buy breathing room for them to recover in a pinch. But when I'm zerg-surfing, I don't know what anyone else is doing, so it's just a really expensive personal damage shield.

technohic · July 2020

LuxLunae wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

So a sorc wont be able to cast streak a few times to get away? A dk wont be able to use talons/breath into leap?

The issue is purge:

Snared? Purge
Rooted? Purge
Stunned? Purge
Dots? Purge
Debuffs? Purge

Just make alliance war purge a self purge only and increase the cost. Balls would then become easier to kill. Instead of ruining the game for everyone.

Yeah come at me ballers.

It sounds like a simple solution, but.. good ballers would adapt by making groups of certain 2-3 classes with class purges on sort of rotation for each (like a Necro casting Hexproof every few seconds to take out a layer of stuff away, imagine 10-20+ Necros, with several Earthgores, and certain 5p sets on several people in the group so the individual purge proc it does per target is cleansing stuff automatically by many on cooldown).. these sets increased number would sacrifice some of their damage though, but they could gain it back by growing their numbers up too.

So let them adapt like that. It should be an extremely daunting task to put together a large group that is basically immune to all dots/debuffs. To put together such a strong comp, you should have to build around it. If they adapt by building around it with all necros and purge sets, good for them, they're at least making some sacrifices for it. The problem is that right now you don't have to build around it, you get it with a few group members slotting it and using it regularly, there is no real sacrifice necessary, just have healers work in purges in between casting regen and other heals and.. welp, that's it.

What is wrong with a good group with a good leader working to take down zergs?

This line has become a red herring. Most ball groups are not going out and engaging zergs. Rather; they find a spot where they cant be ignored and create a concentration of players into a zerg while they run around farming.

And watch this and tell me you cant be both a ball group and a zerg at the same time.
https://youtu.be/Xo-krb1jxFc

That video was dhisgahsting and the worst thing i've ever seen. rapid regens looking like freaking lighting strikes through the crowds...

I think they were pretty proud of that. I anticipate the next video to be less in group but watch around them. That group just happens to also be in faction stacks as well.

Crispen_Longbow · July 2020

technohic wrote: »

This line has become a red herring. Most ball groups are not going out and engaging zergs. Rather; they find a spot where they cant be ignored and create a concentration of players into a zerg while they run around farming.

I think they were pretty proud of that. I anticipate the next video to be less in group but watch around them. That group just happens to also be in faction stacks as well.

It really boils down to most solo players do not know what goes on between guilds, how they fight, where they fight, or why they fight.

The above video is of VE sieging a defended keep “Ash” by themselves. The video is a 20-minute fight between 3 guilds at a contested keep where they move off to fight each other. DC really struggles right now for good guilds. LoM could be considered the best guild DC currently has to offer. Drac could be considered the best guild that EP currently has to offer. EP & AD have far better guilds currently then DC does. The video is of VE taking on Drac and LoM at the same time. It was mainly to poke fun at drac as it makes Izy salty.

We have a few raid leads. Each one is different on what they want to accomplish for the night. We mainly seek out the other guilds that are on to fight them. When they aren't on, or have decided to group up with their faction stack, then we fight those.

Each faction has guilds. They are all at different levels, have different goals and playstyles. You will have guilds like Army of the Pact (AP) which is a pug guild. They will basically lose every fight against other guilds, so they avoid guild groups and pretty much pvdoor side & back keeps whenever they are on. The lower level guilds will usually fight the other factions lower level guilds. The top tier guilds like to fight the other top tier guilds. When those guilds aren't available they look for other fights.

You are DC. So when you see us we are fighting LoM, Chapterhouse, Xaans, IL with the small scale groups like Ty for the Donation trying to bomb inside of those guilds. Most of the time you will find us on the EP side of the house as they have more guilds for us to fight.

Here are your Active primetime guilds across all the NA PC servers that can field groups of more then 8 players. The NoCP & Standard I know less about as I don't play on those servers very often and really only see them when they guest over.

AD (NA/PC)

Vehemence (VE)
Fantasia
Queen's Brigade
Lemon Party
Tertiary Meat (TM)
Total Domination (TD)
Dominion Imperial Guard (Dig)
Dominant Dominion (DD)
Homicide Inc
Ruin Gaming (Ruin)
Ayrenns army (AA)
Aka Baka

DC (NA/PC)

Legions of Mordor
Ghost Division
Iron Legion
Xanns
ChapterHouse
Rough Riders
Fengrush Inc

EP (NA/PC)

Dracarys
TYR
CBB
mega squish
CutestBoys / Vangaurd
Vae Victus VV
Specters Of The Phoenix (SOTP)
Army of the Pact (AP)
Heroes of the Pact
GAO
Dawning
Dread Lords
Sunder & Keening

We could probably go through each faction ranking the guilds from Best to Worst and then people would be better prepared on what it means to fight specific guilds. Most of the people in Cyro have no idea who they are fighting.

Satiar · July 2020

technohic wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

So a sorc wont be able to cast streak a few times to get away? A dk wont be able to use talons/breath into leap?

The issue is purge:

Snared? Purge
Rooted? Purge
Stunned? Purge
Dots? Purge
Debuffs? Purge

Just make alliance war purge a self purge only and increase the cost. Balls would then become easier to kill. Instead of ruining the game for everyone.

Yeah come at me ballers.

It sounds like a simple solution, but.. good ballers would adapt by making groups of certain 2-3 classes with class purges on sort of rotation for each (like a Necro casting Hexproof every few seconds to take out a layer of stuff away, imagine 10-20+ Necros, with several Earthgores, and certain 5p sets on several people in the group so the individual purge proc it does per target is cleansing stuff automatically by many on cooldown).. these sets increased number would sacrifice some of their damage though, but they could gain it back by growing their numbers up too.

So let them adapt like that. It should be an extremely daunting task to put together a large group that is basically immune to all dots/debuffs. To put together such a strong comp, you should have to build around it. If they adapt by building around it with all necros and purge sets, good for them, they're at least making some sacrifices for it. The problem is that right now you don't have to build around it, you get it with a few group members slotting it and using it regularly, there is no real sacrifice necessary, just have healers work in purges in between casting regen and other heals and.. welp, that's it.

What is wrong with a good group with a good leader working to take down zergs?

This line has become a red herring. Most ball groups are not going out and engaging zergs. Rather; they find a spot where they cant be ignored and create a concentration of players into a zerg while they run around farming.

And watch this and tell me you cant be both a ball group and a zerg at the same time.
https://youtu.be/Xo-krb1jxFc

The game is just much, much, much smaller than it used to be. All of us long-timers in that "ball group" came to the game when there was more to fight. Organized guilds running multiple raids like TYSM, huge hordes of pugs. That's the kind of *** that got us all into the game. Now it's such a small game that servers don't work with barely 100 ppl per faction and 1-2 groups online. This is because instead of actually fixing things and making PvP a healthy environment that actually operates as the big-ass battlefield it was advertised as, ZoS has shrunk it to the point that people call out singular groups for "ruining PvP".

It's less than a shadow of the game it used to be, PvP-wise.

That you can watch 3 guilds fight and think "zerg" should be seen as a criticism of the state of the game itself.

technohic wrote: »

LuxLunae wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

So a sorc wont be able to cast streak a few times to get away? A dk wont be able to use talons/breath into leap?

The issue is purge:

Snared? Purge
Rooted? Purge
Stunned? Purge
Dots? Purge
Debuffs? Purge

Just make alliance war purge a self purge only and increase the cost. Balls would then become easier to kill. Instead of ruining the game for everyone.

Yeah come at me ballers.

It sounds like a simple solution, but.. good ballers would adapt by making groups of certain 2-3 classes with class purges on sort of rotation for each (like a Necro casting Hexproof every few seconds to take out a layer of stuff away, imagine 10-20+ Necros, with several Earthgores, and certain 5p sets on several people in the group so the individual purge proc it does per target is cleansing stuff automatically by many on cooldown).. these sets increased number would sacrifice some of their damage though, but they could gain it back by growing their numbers up too.

So let them adapt like that. It should be an extremely daunting task to put together a large group that is basically immune to all dots/debuffs. To put together such a strong comp, you should have to build around it. If they adapt by building around it with all necros and purge sets, good for them, they're at least making some sacrifices for it. The problem is that right now you don't have to build around it, you get it with a few group members slotting it and using it regularly, there is no real sacrifice necessary, just have healers work in purges in between casting regen and other heals and.. welp, that's it.

What is wrong with a good group with a good leader working to take down zergs?

This line has become a red herring. Most ball groups are not going out and engaging zergs. Rather; they find a spot where they cant be ignored and create a concentration of players into a zerg while they run around farming.

And watch this and tell me you cant be both a ball group and a zerg at the same time.
https://youtu.be/Xo-krb1jxFc

That video was dhisgahsting and the worst thing i've ever seen. rapid regens looking like freaking lighting strikes through the crowds...

I think they were pretty proud of that. I anticipate the next video to be less in group but watch around them. That group just happens to also be in faction stacks as well.

We've been raiding with 24 for years, why would we suddenly change that because you disliked a video?

crazepdx · July 2020

While I will agree a big part of the problem is ZOS needs to deal with server infrastructure, that doesn't tell the whole story. If I can run a 12 man. Have everyone slot a stun/root, a resto staff hot, a synergy, a damage shield and a purge, then basically cycle through them while light attacking and that group is unkillable practically as long as they stay together. That is a broken system. What's worse it kills the enjoyment for any that doesn't want to run around endlessly spamming the same 5 skills over and over again. Faction stacks don't cause the kind of lag Drac does. Not to single them out, but I can literally tell when they are in the area by my ping and fps.

Satiar · July 2020

crazepdx wrote: »

While I will agree a big part of the problem is ZOS needs to deal with server infrastructure, that doesn't tell the whole story. If I can run a 12 man. Have everyone slot a stun/root, a resto staff hot, a synergy, a damage shield and a purge, then basically cycle through them while light attacking and that group is unkillable practically as long as they stay together. That is a broken system. What's worse it kills the enjoyment for any that doesn't want to run around endlessly spamming the same 5 skills over and over again. Faction stacks don't cause the kind of lag Drac does. Not to single them out, but I can literally tell when they are in the area by my ping and fps.

It didn't use to be that way. First everyone blamed ZoS for causing the massive, game-breaking lag and fps drops. When it became clear that ZoS wasn't going to do anything, people blamed the giant zergs. Then they blamed the raid groups that fought the giant zergs and praised the 12-man squads that bombed the raid groups. Now people blame the 12-man squads.

It's just dumb. I don't even like Drac but lag isn't their fault. It's no one's fault. If you can't even have a 12 man anymore then what is the point of even having a map like Cyrodiil?

crazepdx · July 2020

I'm not saying it's any groups fault. However, I have been solo in an area. Watched a certain group go by looking like a fireworks parade. Mind you none else in the area but still spamming skills as traveling. And as they were going by the lag became terrible. That was also with no combat happening so that was just a steady pull in the server.

Kartalin · July 2020

crazepdx wrote: »

I'm not saying it's any groups fault. However, I have been solo in an area. Watched a certain group go by looking like a fireworks parade. Mind you none else in the area but still spamming skills as traveling. And as they were going by the lag became terrible. That was also with no combat happening so that was just a steady pull in the server.

Could be a coincidence? There could be a massive EP/DC fight at Chal and AD will feel the effects of that lag ... wherever the hell they are, zone chat.

Fawn4287 · August 2020

Satiar wrote: »

crazepdx wrote: »

While I will agree a big part of the problem is ZOS needs to deal with server infrastructure, that doesn't tell the whole story. If I can run a 12 man. Have everyone slot a stun/root, a resto staff hot, a synergy, a damage shield and a purge, then basically cycle through them while light attacking and that group is unkillable practically as long as they stay together. That is a broken system. What's worse it kills the enjoyment for any that doesn't want to run around endlessly spamming the same 5 skills over and over again. Faction stacks don't cause the kind of lag Drac does. Not to single them out, but I can literally tell when they are in the area by my ping and fps.

It didn't use to be that way. First everyone blamed ZoS for causing the massive, game-breaking lag and fps drops. When it became clear that ZoS wasn't going to do anything, people blamed the giant zergs. Then they blamed the raid groups that fought the giant zergs and praised the 12-man squads that bombed the raid groups. Now people blame the 12-man squads.

It's just dumb. I don't even like Drac but lag isn't their fault. It's no one's fault. If you can't even have a 12 man anymore then what is the point of even having a map like Cyrodiil?

This problem isn’t limited to cyrodil, these groups that cause the cyrodil lag often go in to the imp city and do the same, the difference between now and some years ago groups usually had 1 or 2 healers who spammed springs and templar heal ults, compared with now its the entire group running and spamming radiating and rapid regen , think if it has to heal the 3 lowest health target with 12 or 15 people spamming it a second how much more complex the calculation is when compared to ‘heal everyone in the circle for X’.

ShadowProc · August 2020

Kadoin wrote: »

Crispen_Longbow wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

[Quoted post was removed]

[Quoted post was removed]

[snip]

But this was actual fighting against others guilds. You want an example of what you think you are claiming watch Tyr. Morgan streams the same BS 3 or 4 times a week. Farm pugs. Dont know how that is fun more than once

[Edited to remove Baiting]

crazepdx · August 2020

OK, forget server lag let's look at it this way. 12 people spamming a hot for lets say 2k has ea, gives 24k hps. Now let's say they all have 20% mitigation from armor that means you need 30k dps just to overcome the heals. Since they are also getting purge spam they are basically immune to dots or status effects from siege and snares. If they add in damage shields, that also stack, they are pretty much unstoppable without negates. That is broken, considering only 1 class has that negate and it's an ultimate so they can't spam it.

ecru · August 2020

idk wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

So a sorc wont be able to cast streak a few times to get away? A dk wont be able to use talons/breath into leap?

The issue is purge:

Snared? Purge
Rooted? Purge
Stunned? Purge
Dots? Purge
Debuffs? Purge

Just make alliance war purge a self purge only and increase the cost. Balls would then become easier to kill. Instead of ruining the game for everyone.

Yeah come at me ballers.

It sounds like a simple solution, but.. good ballers would adapt by making groups of certain 2-3 classes with class purges on sort of rotation for each (like a Necro casting Hexproof every few seconds to take out a layer of stuff away, imagine 10-20+ Necros, with several Earthgores, and certain 5p sets on several people in the group so the individual purge proc it does per target is cleansing stuff automatically by many on cooldown).. these sets increased number would sacrifice some of their damage though, but they could gain it back by growing their numbers up too.

So let them adapt like that. It should be an extremely daunting task to put together a large group that is basically immune to all dots/debuffs. To put together such a strong comp, you should have to build around it. If they adapt by building around it with all necros and purge sets, good for them, they're at least making some sacrifices for it. The problem is that right now you don't have to build around it, you get it with a few group members slotting it and using it regularly, there is no real sacrifice necessary, just have healers work in purges in between casting regen and other heals and.. welp, that's it.

What is wrong with a good group with a good leader working to take down zergs?

I don't understand what you're asking. I never said anything was wrong with it, I just suggested that there should be more to mitigating half of the negative effects in the entire game besides being in a group where a handful of people have the same ability slotted.

technohic wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

So a sorc wont be able to cast streak a few times to get away? A dk wont be able to use talons/breath into leap?

The issue is purge:

Snared? Purge
Rooted? Purge
Stunned? Purge
Dots? Purge
Debuffs? Purge

Just make alliance war purge a self purge only and increase the cost. Balls would then become easier to kill. Instead of ruining the game for everyone.

Yeah come at me ballers.

It sounds like a simple solution, but.. good ballers would adapt by making groups of certain 2-3 classes with class purges on sort of rotation for each (like a Necro casting Hexproof every few seconds to take out a layer of stuff away, imagine 10-20+ Necros, with several Earthgores, and certain 5p sets on several people in the group so the individual purge proc it does per target is cleansing stuff automatically by many on cooldown).. these sets increased number would sacrifice some of their damage though, but they could gain it back by growing their numbers up too.

So let them adapt like that. It should be an extremely daunting task to put together a large group that is basically immune to all dots/debuffs. To put together such a strong comp, you should have to build around it. If they adapt by building around it with all necros and purge sets, good for them, they're at least making some sacrifices for it. The problem is that right now you don't have to build around it, you get it with a few group members slotting it and using it regularly, there is no real sacrifice necessary, just have healers work in purges in between casting regen and other heals and.. welp, that's it.

What is wrong with a good group with a good leader working to take down zergs?

This line has become a red herring. Most ball groups are not going out and engaging zergs. Rather; they find a spot where they cant be ignored and create a concentration of players into a zerg while they run around farming.

And watch this and tell me you cant be both a ball group and a zerg at the same time.
https://youtu.be/Xo-krb1jxFc

when we used to do this in DAoC, it was 8 vs 40+. lol.

VaranisArano · August 2020

Tammany wrote: »

crazepdx wrote: »

OK, forget server lag let's look at it this way. 12 people spamming a hot for keys day 2k has ea, gives 24k hps. Now let's say they all have 20% mitigation from armor that means you need 30k dps just to overcome the heals. Since they are also getting purge spam they are basically immune to dots or status effects from siege and snares. If they add in damage shields, that also stack, they are pretty much unstoppable without negates. That is broken, considering only 1 class has that negate and it's an ultimate so they can't spam it.

[Quoted post was removed]

Different types of skill.

Lots of people like to elevate individual skill or the type of self-sufficient play you see in real small groups where everyone is sort of fighting on their own with little support from each other.

That's closer to a backyard game of pickup ball, or, more charitably, its the "warrior mentality" of warfare. This absolutely takes skill.

Organized raids prioritize teamwork and executing practiced maneuvers well. The whole team is responsible for their success and when one or two members is off, you see a cascade of failures ripples through the whole raid.

That's closer to a sports team, or to use the warfare analogy, the "soldier mentality." This also takes skill and teamwork. It doesn't matter how good you are in a 1v1, it matters how well you play as a team (that should sound familiar to anyone who did high school sports, lol).

I never played sports. I do play handbells. If you've never seen them, think of 13 players at a piano keyboard, each playing 4 to 8+ notes to make a song (except the notes are played on handheld bells.) It's a team effort. If you aren't following the music, anticipating your notes, and right there with the director, it's cacophony. But when we all are right there together, we make music.

I can also do handball solos. It's a blast running back and forth ringing out the melody by myself. But it's not the same as standing with twelve other people ringing out my small but necessary part of the music. Both take skill. Both take practice. One requires teamwork to make beautiful music instead of meaningless noise.

Which is a long way to say that I think if people respected both types of effort and skill, we'd be having a less toxic conversation overall.