Carzog's Demise. Hmm... (Spoilers)

spurned · June 2020

adriant1978 wrote: »

This is a fair point, and as a roleplayer you often have to pause and ask yourself "is this what I would do or what my character would do?", but that doesn't mean one shouldn't make the effort to try and look at a situation from a character's viewpoint rather than your own.

“Knowing that a trap exists is the first step in avoiding it” – Frank Herbert, Dune

As a player who puts himself in his characters... I can still appreciate this approach.

spurned · June 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

When I'm talking about compartmentalization, I'm not talking about a complete and utter separation of my self and subsuming myself completely in a character as if I become another person. Method acting works for some people, but I tend to do large casts when I write, so that gets hard.

I'm talking about an active process of role-playing on multiple levels. I'm reacting simultaneously as myself and through the "filters" I have in place that form my character, such as their backstory, their in-character knowledge, and their attitudes. Acting and reacting through those filters is an active, intentional process. Thus, I can intentionally roleplay in ways that are deliberately contrary to my own beliefs and out-of-character knowledge.

Although that is not for me because it involves somewhat taking myself out of adventures I want to experience with a more personal approach, these clarifications are useful.

VaranisArano · June 2020

spurned wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

When I'm talking about compartmentalization, I'm not talking about a complete and utter separation of my self and subsuming myself completely in a character as if I become another person. Method acting works for some people, but I tend to do large casts when I write, so that gets hard.

I'm talking about an active process of role-playing on multiple levels. I'm reacting simultaneously as myself and through the "filters" I have in place that form my character, such as their backstory, their in-character knowledge, and their attitudes. Acting and reacting through those filters is an active, intentional process. Thus, I can intentionally roleplay in ways that are deliberately contrary to my own beliefs and out-of-character knowledge.

Although that is not for me because it involves somewhat taking myself out of adventures I want to experience with a more personal approach, these clarifications are useful.

Yeah, both methods are completely valid ways to roleplay.

I appreciate your willingness to listen and learn about a new method, even though it doesn't fit your preferences for roleplay.

adriant1978 · June 2020

spurned wrote: »

I was baited and I took it

I didn't see any baiting going on here, just a robust exchange of opinions, and I don't think you should imply that @Ghanima_Atreides had motives beyond simple discussion.

spurned · June 2020

adriant1978 wrote: »

spurned wrote: »

I was baited and I took it

I didn't see any baiting going on here, just a robust exchange of opinions, and I don't think you should imply that @Ghanima_Atreides had motives beyond simple discussion.

To rephrase borrowing some of your own words. I gave into a more robust exchange because of my interlocutor's unwavering belief that they were right. A principle for pleasant discussions is willingness to be receptive especially on subjective matters. Saw no indication of that so I adopted the same behaviour, for which I apologise. I should have clearly stated in my initial post that my proposed modifications to the characters were affective as well as logical. Maybe then there wouldn't have been such a need for someone to be correct.

Ghanima_Atreides · June 2020

I said I wouldn't reply again but since I've been "summoned" I feel the need to try and clarify a few things.

@spurned - I hope you see that you are doing the same thing you are accusing me of, in your need to be correct in this matter. I do admit that I am argumentative, because I like to show why I agree/disagree with something, but that was never meant as a personal attack on you. I stated multiple times that my interpretation is just that - my own- and I don't believe I ever claimed it was the only possible interpretation, so I don't know why you are claiming that I did. Simply because I don't agree with you?

Speaking of receptivity on subjective matters as a basis for pleasant conversation, I very much agree - and from the first post in which you replied to me, I found your tone to be aggressive. It wasn't even the disagreement about the character, but rather you choosing to target me personally, by making assumptions about my "extreme moral alignment", my ability to appreciate "nuanced characters", accusations of upvoting my own posts, and the ongoing insinuation that my personal beliefs and emotions are getting in the way of my understanding. I admit, this did rather rile me up a bit, and if I got more combative, this is why.

TL;Dr version: I came into this thread to have a discussion about the story, nothing more. Feeling that you were targeting me personally instead of my arguments about the story rubbed me the wrong way. I guess we just both feel strongly about our own opinions are not going to budge - that's fine. Different strokes. But please don't accuse me of not being receptive enough when you didn't show me the same courtesy either.

VaranisArano · June 2020

I mean, I'll be honest, I dropped the discussion of the Summerset plot because while I very much disagree with the OP's interpretation of a certain Daedric Prince, my own interpretation is also simply that - my own - and unlike Lerisa, it was off topic.

But since I'm thinking about it again...
Discussion of Summerset:

The way I see it, Nocturnal isn't really neutral towards mortals. No Daedric Prince is. She's always on the lookout for what's in it for her, whether that's the service of the Nightingales or punishing the Gray Fox for stealing her artifact. Given the chance to claim ultimate cosmic power, well, its obvious what's in it for her.

How she goes about it also fits in with her usual MO. Nocturnal has nearly all the pieces she needs long before Summerset happens, but she waits. She waits and bides her time, building up her alliance with the Sloads, Clavicus Vile and Mephala to get the final pieces she needs while bringing strife to her enemies. Most importantly, she's working in the shadows to pull off her plot regarding Clockwork City.

I'll try not to spoil Clockwork City since I know the OP hasn't done it, but in short, if the player hadn't foiled Nocturnal there, she would have won, instantly. Real spoilers for Clockwork City ahoy:

in Clockwork City, the player prevents Nocturnal from recovering her Skeleton Key, which would have allowed her to instantly bypass all the Tower defenses

And I think that was Nocturnal's original plan. Like a thief in the night, as soon as she had what she needed from Clockwork City and the tower's heart, she'd slip right into Crystal Tower unopposed and *boom* its all over, Nocturnal wins, universe rewritten in her image before anyone can do anything about it. And if it weren't for that meddling player, she'd have pulled it off.

But like a burglary gone wrong, she's forced to resort to brute forcing the tower defenses, and that's what gives the player time to defeat her. Sure, in the end she gets a little grandiose. Well, "grandiose" is a trait shared by pretty much every Daedric Prince and she'd just successfully backstabbed two fellow Princes and was well on her way to ultimate cosmic power at the time. Just saying that I can accept a little bragging when she pulled off that little caper.

So when it comes to Summerset, I think the writers preserved Nocturnal's character while also highlighting her as the main antagonist as opposed to a Prince usually sitting on the sidelines. Her motives were ultimately selfish, as fits prior characterizations. And she's the one no one sees coming. Its the big plot twist of the Chapter, and her betrayal shocks Clavicus Vile, Mephala, and in my case, the player as well. She worked in the shadows right up until there was no other choice - and if the player hadn't foiled her in Clockwork City, she would have won in that instant, with no one able to stop her. That's pretty darned impressive. Obviously, we had to defeat her in the end, but Nocturnal got a lot closer to taking over the universe than pretty much any other Big Bad in the series since Mehrunes Dagon nearly squished Martin Septim.

All of the above is my opinion, of course.

spurned · June 2020

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

I said I wouldn't reply again but since I've been "summoned" I feel the need to try and clarify a few things.

@spurned - I hope you see that you are doing the same thing you are accusing me of, in your need to be correct in this matter. I do admit that I am argumentative, because I like to show why I agree/disagree with something, but that was never meant as a personal attack on you.
Speaking of receptivity on subjective matters as a basis for pleasant conversation, I very much agree - and from the first post in which you replied to me, I found your tone to be aggressive.
TL;Dr version: I came into this thread to have a discussion about the story, nothing more. Feeling that you were targeting me personally instead of my arguments about the story rubbed me the wrong way. I guess we just both feel strongly about our own opinions are not going to budge - that's fine. Different strokes. But please don't accuse me of not being receptive enough when you didn't show me the same courtesy either.

Indeed. Looking back I was the one to spark this back and forth, but completely unintentionally. Poor choice of words on my behalf when I stated you wouldn't appreciate nuanced characters and situations. The fact that I was agreeable (or I hope I was) to most posters but not you, even though their reasoning didn't resonate with my own, is a poor reflection on myself. Guess I was the one to set the tone after all. If it's any consolation, my first reply to you was meant to be directed at your oversimplification and not you personally. I wasn't trying to be argumentative initially. I would apologise again but at this point it would just be repetitive.

spurned · June 2020

Thank you to all the people who participated on this topic. The thread can be closed anytime a forum moderator chooses so.