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Sword and board is the ultimate Defensive crutch

Fawn4287
Fawn4287
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What is the point of playing a build that uses a burst combo (which is essentially every build in the game) when it is so ridiculously easy and cheap to stand there and hold block? Not only that but the concept of being able to block cast combined with the easiest way to mitigate damage is the Reason for the tank and spank meta. When nearly every build in the game uses one including tanks, dps and healing centric builds it demonstrates there is something grossly over powered about it and that it is heavily over performing. Throw in things like tri pots for super easy sustain and a panic heal, mist form for essentially 4 seconds of block mitigation for 4k mag and its very easy to see why no one dies. Its just a bad design than a glass cannon with 9k resists can mitigate almost as much damage as someone with capped resists for simply slotting a sword and board back bar and stam builds can simply hold block for the entire duration every time you go on the offensive.

I understand that PvE needs sword and board to work as it does but it currently makes PvP a slow painful arduous grind, especially when inexperienced players who would be a 5 second 1 combo easy kill with a bow or resto staff are now a drawn out sustain based battle because they simply hold 1 button down with sword and board equipped. What was once ESOs fast paced fighter style gameplay is quickly becoming another slow boring grindy MMO
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
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    Buff siege, especially fire and lightning ballistas' initial damage. Oils and anti-structure siege are fine, and probably all 3 Coldharbours, but all the others need a damage buff.
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Alucardo
    Alucardo
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    tbf they nerfed the crap out of the rest of the skill line. I think we should leave the SnB ult as is or it'd be a pile of junk.
  • Kadoin
    Kadoin
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    I don't know about anyone else, but none of my PvP chars ever use SnB...
  • BaiterOfZergs
    BaiterOfZergs
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    I don’t even see many people use snb anymore, definitely not with brp around. At best it might be back bar.

    SnB has been nerfed into the ground, it’s extra mitigation is the only thing going for it.
    Zerg of House Smallscale, First of his name, wielder of Volendrung, battleground hero, Cyrodiil butcher, the swifft footed, OG of the Templars and first pvpers, defender of scrolls and baiter of zergs.
  • ZOS_RogerJ
    ZOS_RogerJ
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    Remember, as we've removed a few posts from this thread, that it’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.
    The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
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    Staff Post
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    You know this is all very situational. True, 95% of (solo) players with meta builds have tough chance defeating each other in honest 1v1. But then you can meet rest 5% who can cut through your block-healing, mist, roll-dodge spam, 30k+ resistances etc like you are naked. Because their bursts are perfectly timed in those 2-3 seconds when you let your defenses down (or server lagged out)
    So solution here is not to nerf block-healing, but to buff back dots, bleeds and other anti-block offensive tools.
  • EtTuBrutus
    EtTuBrutus
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    Block has always been good, but now that dots and aoes are nerfed to the ground, apart from dks class dots, it's all youve got. Now you need to learn to combo or you're not going to beat a good player who doesn't make a mistake or take a big risk.
  • Theignson
    Theignson
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    There are some builds that are amazingly hard to kill. But not only with SnB. Just remember, the harder they are to kill, the less damage they do. So just ignore them and attack someone else. Also, for example, if a super tank is sieging you, you can often just walk up and burn their siege, since they literally can't damage you while you are standing there.
    3 GOs, a Warlord, and bunches of prefects etc-- all classes...I've wasted a lot of time in PVP
  • grannas211
    grannas211
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    Theignson wrote: »
    There are some builds that are amazingly hard to kill. But not only with SnB. Just remember, the harder they are to kill, the less damage they do. So just ignore them and attack someone else. Also, for example, if a super tank is sieging you, you can often just walk up and burn their siege, since they literally can't damage you while you are standing there.

    Stam Necro says hi
  • Aedaryl
    Aedaryl
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    grannas211 wrote: »
    Theignson wrote: »
    There are some builds that are amazingly hard to kill. But not only with SnB. Just remember, the harder they are to kill, the less damage they do. So just ignore them and attack someone else. Also, for example, if a super tank is sieging you, you can often just walk up and burn their siege, since they literally can't damage you while you are standing there.

    Stam Necro says hi

    Stamina says hi

    New Moon + Fury + Bloodspoown + full damage enchant mean you deal crazy damage. Then add off balance 10% more damage from CP as a cherry on top of the cake.

    Being in heavy armor + Bloodspoown + ur typical armor buff = almost capped resists. Add active mitigation from block S&B back bar + huge heal because huge weapon damage = you are super tanky.

    What about sustain? No problem, you have the privilege to have cheap cost and to be able to recover from short channel heavy attacks! Don't forget you double that ressource amount because you are Stam boi and Unchained passive CP boost which equal to 600 Stam regen.

    Have low HP? Just block and profit from major heroism to spam as a much ulti as a you can !

    Don't forget, *** hard magicka!

    NB : Stamblade and magplar being the exception.
  • universal_wrath
    universal_wrath
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    Fawn4287 wrote: »
    What is the point of playing a build that uses a burst combo (which is essentially every build in the game) when it is so ridiculously easy and cheap to stand there and hold block? Not only that but the concept of being able to block cast combined with the easiest way to mitigate damage is the Reason for the tank and spank meta. When nearly every build in the game uses one including tanks, dps and healing centric builds it demonstrates there is something grossly over powered about it and that it is heavily over performing. Throw in things like tri pots for super easy sustain and a panic heal, mist form for essentially 4 seconds of block mitigation for 4k mag and its very easy to see why no one dies. Its just a bad design than a glass cannon with 9k resists can mitigate almost as much damage as someone with capped resists for simply slotting a sword and board back bar and stam builds can simply hold block for the entire duration every time you go on the offensive.

    I understand that PvE needs sword and board to work as it does but it currently makes PvP a slow painful arduous grind, especially when inexperienced players who would be a 5 second 1 combo easy kill with a bow or resto staff are now a drawn out sustain based battle because they simply hold 1 button down with sword and board equipped. What was once ESOs fast paced fighter style gameplay is quickly becoming another slow boring grindy MMO

    Burst combo is called burst combo because it is supposed to kill people before they can react or recover from your attacks. Kill that sucker before he/she uses their defensive ultimate. If you feel to kill them before they activate their defensive ultimate, kite and wait for the ultimate to finish then burst them down again, you have more window to do so for the second time because they just used their ultimate.
  • precambria
    precambria
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    If you are light armor and not a sorc, hell even if you are one, it's pretty much the only way to try and offset the overwhelming dominance of stam builds right now, that might also be the lag and desync though, if spells actually went off mag would be better.
  • JinxxND
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    Remember when game had forms of damage like bleeds that would counter block and tanks but then they got nerfed, anything that has potential to kill people gets nerfed yet anything that improves survival doesn't get touched hence why defensive ults outside the night blade soul siphon all don't have cast times
    Edited by JinxxND on 17 April 2020 10:56
    PC NA -
    'Jinxx - Nightblade
    'Jinxx X Necromancer
  • precambria
    precambria
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    JinxxND wrote: »
    Remember when game had forms of damage like bleeds that would counter block and tanks but then they got nerfed, anything that has potential to kill people gets nerfed yet anything that improves survival doesn't get touched hence why defensive ults outside the night blade soul siphon all don't have cast times

    ^ exactly, This is basically all caused by the Dots nerf, it's why people are unable to Dps through block and why others have to hold block for longer because it takes 40% longer to wear down enough to go offensive.
  • Alucardo
    Alucardo
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    Kadoin wrote: »
    I don't know about anyone else, but none of my PvP chars ever use SnB...

    My stam sorc does. Despite the nerfs, heroic is still quite strong, and they haven't ruined bash weaving.... yet. Not to mention as a Nord and sorc in BS, my ults are essentially a sixth ability they are available so fast.
  • BaiterOfZergs
    BaiterOfZergs
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    JinxxND wrote: »
    Remember when game had forms of damage like bleeds that would counter block and tanks but then they got nerfed, anything that has potential to kill people gets nerfed yet anything that improves survival doesn't get touched hence why defensive ults outside the night blade soul siphon all don't have cast times

    Yeah but those bleeds didn’t do anything to tank builds they were abused against people that weren’t tanky and actually empowered tank meta builds. And defensive things get nerfed all the time, just look at the history of the game, they just get replaced by something else because simply nerfing will never solve the problem.

    Zerg of House Smallscale, First of his name, wielder of Volendrung, battleground hero, Cyrodiil butcher, the swifft footed, OG of the Templars and first pvpers, defender of scrolls and baiter of zergs.
  • Nick_Balza
    Nick_Balza
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    Theignson wrote: »
    There are some builds that are amazingly hard to kill. But not only with SnB. Just remember, the harder they are to kill, the less damage they do. So just ignore them and attack someone else. Also, for example, if a super tank is sieging you, you can often just walk up and burn their siege, since they literally can't damage you while you are standing there.

    > the harder they are to kill, the less damage they do
    Somewhere in balanced world. But not here.
    > Just ignore them and attack someone else
    So, I need to ignore all people, who read build threads (75% or something)

    Everyone wants to have tanky build and deal devastating damage. Medium armor lost any point long time ago.
    Stam builds are equipped by heavy armor. No wonder that stam builds are dominating.
    Mag builds trying to survive with damage shields.
    GM of small social/casual guild Bar Indoril Nalivayka
    PC - EU. @NickBalza
    Nick Balza - Magicka Nightblade
    John Skellan - Stamina Nightblade (Vampire/Crafter/Bowtard)
    Roland Maybelline - Stamina Templar
    Willow The Firestarter - Magicka DK
    Alexander Veidt - Stamina Necromancer
    Chris Maxwell - Magicka Necromancer (Healer)
    Genevieve Diedonne - Stamina Sorc
    The Beckett - Stamina DK/Werewolf
    Mira Giovanni - Magicka Nightblade (Healer\Tank)

  • Sanctum74
    Sanctum74
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    Nick_Balza wrote: »
    Theignson wrote: »
    There are some builds that are amazingly hard to kill. But not only with SnB. Just remember, the harder they are to kill, the less damage they do. So just ignore them and attack someone else. Also, for example, if a super tank is sieging you, you can often just walk up and burn their siege, since they literally can't damage you while you are standing there.

    > the harder they are to kill, the less damage they do
    Somewhere in balanced world. But not here.
    > Just ignore them and attack someone else
    So, I need to ignore all people, who read build threads (75% or something)

    Everyone wants to have tanky build and deal devastating damage. Medium armor lost any point long time ago.
    Stam builds are equipped by heavy armor. No wonder that stam builds are dominating.
    Mag builds trying to survive with damage shields.

    I disagree most of the hard to kill builds with great damage are wearing medium, people just assume it’s heavy cause they are hard to kill. Learning to keep your buffs/hots up and using block, los, and roll dodge work wonders especially since heals scale off of damage. You can be very tanky in light or medium.
  • Sanguinor2
    Sanguinor2
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    JinxxND wrote: »
    Remember when game had forms of damage like bleeds that would counter block and tanks but then they got nerfed, anything that has potential to kill people gets nerfed yet anything that improves survival doesn't get touched hence why defensive ults outside the night blade soul siphon all don't have cast times

    Remember when those bleeds and oblivion Damage screwed non tanks harder than tanks and were heralded as the anti tank Tools?
    Politeness is respecting others.
    Courage is doing what is fair.
    Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
    Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
    Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
    Honor is keeping ones word.
  • Chilly-McFreeze
    Chilly-McFreeze
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    Sanguinor2 wrote: »
    JinxxND wrote: »
    Remember when game had forms of damage like bleeds that would counter block and tanks but then they got nerfed, anything that has potential to kill people gets nerfed yet anything that improves survival doesn't get touched hence why defensive ults outside the night blade soul siphon all don't have cast times

    Remember when those bleeds and oblivion Damage screwed non tanks harder than tanks and were heralded as the anti tank Tools?

    You mean like the healing nerf screws over classes with low healing more than those with quite good heals? Seems like the sledgehammer approach doesn't solve anything. Too bad ZOS has a different oppinion on across-the-board nerfs.
  • Nick_Balza
    Nick_Balza
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    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    Nick_Balza wrote: »
    Theignson wrote: »
    There are some builds that are amazingly hard to kill. But not only with SnB. Just remember, the harder they are to kill, the less damage they do. So just ignore them and attack someone else. Also, for example, if a super tank is sieging you, you can often just walk up and burn their siege, since they literally can't damage you while you are standing there.

    > the harder they are to kill, the less damage they do
    Somewhere in balanced world. But not here.
    > Just ignore them and attack someone else
    So, I need to ignore all people, who read build threads (75% or something)

    Everyone wants to have tanky build and deal devastating damage. Medium armor lost any point long time ago.
    Stam builds are equipped by heavy armor. No wonder that stam builds are dominating.
    Mag builds trying to survive with damage shields.

    I disagree most of the hard to kill builds with great damage are wearing medium, people just assume it’s heavy cause they are hard to kill. Learning to keep your buffs/hots up and using block, los, and roll dodge work wonders especially since heals scale off of damage. You can be very tanky in light or medium.

    Sorry, I disagree because I have my proof right here:

    https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-dragonknight-pvp-build2/
    https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-sorcerer-build-pvp1/
    https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-templar-build-pvp/
    https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-warden-pvp-build/
    https://dottzgaming.com/2018/01/25/drotoxium-stamina-dragon-knight-pvp-build/
    https://dottzgaming.com/build/dragonborn-stamina-dragon-knight-pvp-build/
    https://dottzgaming.com/build/strain-stamina-sorcerer-pvp-build/
    https://dottzgaming.com/build/natures-wrath-stamina-warden-pvp-build/

    Also check threads here. Everyone asks "what heavy armor should I use for my stam build?".
    GM of small social/casual guild Bar Indoril Nalivayka
    PC - EU. @NickBalza
    Nick Balza - Magicka Nightblade
    John Skellan - Stamina Nightblade (Vampire/Crafter/Bowtard)
    Roland Maybelline - Stamina Templar
    Willow The Firestarter - Magicka DK
    Alexander Veidt - Stamina Necromancer
    Chris Maxwell - Magicka Necromancer (Healer)
    Genevieve Diedonne - Stamina Sorc
    The Beckett - Stamina DK/Werewolf
    Mira Giovanni - Magicka Nightblade (Healer\Tank)

  • Daffen
    Daffen
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    Nick_Balza wrote: »
    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    Nick_Balza wrote: »
    Theignson wrote: »
    There are some builds that are amazingly hard to kill. But not only with SnB. Just remember, the harder they are to kill, the less damage they do. So just ignore them and attack someone else. Also, for example, if a super tank is sieging you, you can often just walk up and burn their siege, since they literally can't damage you while you are standing there.

    > the harder they are to kill, the less damage they do
    Somewhere in balanced world. But not here.
    > Just ignore them and attack someone else
    So, I need to ignore all people, who read build threads (75% or something)

    Everyone wants to have tanky build and deal devastating damage. Medium armor lost any point long time ago.
    Stam builds are equipped by heavy armor. No wonder that stam builds are dominating.
    Mag builds trying to survive with damage shields.

    I disagree most of the hard to kill builds with great damage are wearing medium, people just assume it’s heavy cause they are hard to kill. Learning to keep your buffs/hots up and using block, los, and roll dodge work wonders especially since heals scale off of damage. You can be very tanky in light or medium.

    Sorry, I disagree because I have my proof right here:

    https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-dragonknight-pvp-build2/
    https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-sorcerer-build-pvp1/
    https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-templar-build-pvp/
    https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-warden-pvp-build/
    https://dottzgaming.com/2018/01/25/drotoxium-stamina-dragon-knight-pvp-build/
    https://dottzgaming.com/build/dragonborn-stamina-dragon-knight-pvp-build/
    https://dottzgaming.com/build/strain-stamina-sorcerer-pvp-build/
    https://dottzgaming.com/build/natures-wrath-stamina-warden-pvp-build/

    Also check threads here. Everyone asks "what heavy armor should I use for my stam build?".

    Imagine using alcast as an example for pvp builds, nobody in open world cyrodiil uses these type of builds as they arent good enough.
  • Sanguinor2
    Sanguinor2
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    You mean like the healing nerf screws over classes with low healing more than those with quite good heals? Seems like the sledgehammer approach doesn't solve anything. Too bad ZOS has a different oppinion on across-the-board nerfs.

    Yeah exactly like that.
    Politeness is respecting others.
    Courage is doing what is fair.
    Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
    Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
    Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
    Honor is keeping ones word.
  • Nick_Balza
    Nick_Balza
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    Daffen wrote: »
    Imagine using alcast as an example for pvp builds, nobody in open world cyrodiil uses these type of builds as they arent good enough.

    Alcast, dottz and this forum are the first places people are visiting for getting ideas from where to start. They see "Heavy Armor Focus" and that makes sense.

    If it would be absolute nonsense, people wouldn't read those guides. And websites wouldn't be that popular.
    GM of small social/casual guild Bar Indoril Nalivayka
    PC - EU. @NickBalza
    Nick Balza - Magicka Nightblade
    John Skellan - Stamina Nightblade (Vampire/Crafter/Bowtard)
    Roland Maybelline - Stamina Templar
    Willow The Firestarter - Magicka DK
    Alexander Veidt - Stamina Necromancer
    Chris Maxwell - Magicka Necromancer (Healer)
    Genevieve Diedonne - Stamina Sorc
    The Beckett - Stamina DK/Werewolf
    Mira Giovanni - Magicka Nightblade (Healer\Tank)

  • Sanctum74
    Sanctum74
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    Nick_Balza wrote: »
    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    Nick_Balza wrote: »
    Theignson wrote: »
    There are some builds that are amazingly hard to kill. But not only with SnB. Just remember, the harder they are to kill, the less damage they do. So just ignore them and attack someone else. Also, for example, if a super tank is sieging you, you can often just walk up and burn their siege, since they literally can't damage you while you are standing there.

    > the harder they are to kill, the less damage they do
    Somewhere in balanced world. But not here.
    > Just ignore them and attack someone else
    So, I need to ignore all people, who read build threads (75% or something)

    Everyone wants to have tanky build and deal devastating damage. Medium armor lost any point long time ago.
    Stam builds are equipped by heavy armor. No wonder that stam builds are dominating.
    Mag builds trying to survive with damage shields.

    I disagree most of the hard to kill builds with great damage are wearing medium, people just assume it’s heavy cause they are hard to kill. Learning to keep your buffs/hots up and using block, los, and roll dodge work wonders especially since heals scale off of damage. You can be very tanky in light or medium.

    Sorry, I disagree because I have my proof right here:

    https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-dragonknight-pvp-build2/
    https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-sorcerer-build-pvp1/
    https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-templar-build-pvp/
    https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-warden-pvp-build/
    https://dottzgaming.com/2018/01/25/drotoxium-stamina-dragon-knight-pvp-build/
    https://dottzgaming.com/build/dragonborn-stamina-dragon-knight-pvp-build/
    https://dottzgaming.com/build/strain-stamina-sorcerer-pvp-build/
    https://dottzgaming.com/build/natures-wrath-stamina-warden-pvp-build/

    Also check threads here. Everyone asks "what heavy armor should I use for my stam build?".

    No disrespect to them I appreciate what they have done for the community, but neither of them are top tier pvp players. Top tier players wear light and medium like Nes, Isth3reany1else, Kog, Kristopher just to name a few.
  • Nick_Balza
    Nick_Balza
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    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    No disrespect to them I appreciate what they have done for the community, but neither of them are top tier pvp players. Top tier players wear light and medium like Nes, Isth3reany1else, Kog, Kristopher just to name a few.

    Other people are not Nes, Kog or whatever. Playing Stam DD with medium/light armor requires skill. But we all are playing not against kogs and kristophers.
    We are playing against average players, who see the point in heavy armor for stam builds. No need to focus on surviving, just spam swings/jabs or whatever and enjoy slaughtering. A bit lower damage, but with insane survivability. And heavy armor sets are allowing to get insane damage output.

    Is it "correct" from so-called "pro gaming" side? Nope. Does it work? Yes.
    GM of small social/casual guild Bar Indoril Nalivayka
    PC - EU. @NickBalza
    Nick Balza - Magicka Nightblade
    John Skellan - Stamina Nightblade (Vampire/Crafter/Bowtard)
    Roland Maybelline - Stamina Templar
    Willow The Firestarter - Magicka DK
    Alexander Veidt - Stamina Necromancer
    Chris Maxwell - Magicka Necromancer (Healer)
    Genevieve Diedonne - Stamina Sorc
    The Beckett - Stamina DK/Werewolf
    Mira Giovanni - Magicka Nightblade (Healer\Tank)

  • Darkenarlol
    Darkenarlol
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    Nick_Balza wrote: »

    Alcast, dottz and this forum are the first places people are visiting for getting ideas from where to start.

    you mean that category of people who watches 20 min videos where their YT and twich heroes

    reading with disgusting pronounce 1 page of patch notes for that 20 mins?
    Edited by Darkenarlol on 20 April 2020 15:25
  • Kidgangster101
    Kidgangster101
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    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    Nick_Balza wrote: »
    Theignson wrote: »
    There are some builds that are amazingly hard to kill. But not only with SnB. Just remember, the harder they are to kill, the less damage they do. So just ignore them and attack someone else. Also, for example, if a super tank is sieging you, you can often just walk up and burn their siege, since they literally can't damage you while you are standing there.

    > the harder they are to kill, the less damage they do
    Somewhere in balanced world. But not here.
    > Just ignore them and attack someone else
    So, I need to ignore all people, who read build threads (75% or something)

    Everyone wants to have tanky build and deal devastating damage. Medium armor lost any point long time ago.
    Stam builds are equipped by heavy armor. No wonder that stam builds are dominating.
    Mag builds trying to survive with damage shields.

    I disagree most of the hard to kill builds with great damage are wearing medium, people just assume it’s heavy cause they are hard to kill. Learning to keep your buffs/hots up and using block, los, and roll dodge work wonders especially since heals scale off of damage. You can be very tanky in light or medium.

    Yes your last point is the actual problem lol. I've been saying it for years with this game and it just keeps getting worse and worse.

    Healing scaling off your weapon/spell damage is what makes these heals go high (more so stam side). With people getting around 5k weapon damage easy and up to 6k+ vigor/ other stam healing gets crazy high.

    I've always proposed you need to have a seperate stat for just healing. If people want crazy great healing they spec into that stat instead of weapon/spell damage. Guess what else that does?

    It makes tanks less tanky and do less damage. (Pure tanks don't really do damage though they just block and mitigate lots of damage)

    It makes damage dealers decide how important that heal is to live and how much they sacrafice their ability to burst someone.

    Then you keep healers to their role of being a healer and just supporting a group.

    But people don't want that. They want to be unkillable/great damage/great healing. So rather than classes being a role in PVP you have people playing all 3 at one time.

    This is the best way to fix a lot of problems (yes healers should be able to heal but the problem is EVERYONE can heal as good as a pure healer and that is a problem)
  • BaiterOfZergs
    BaiterOfZergs
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    Most of these tanky builds you see running around are in medium and light, it’s been like that overall since Summerset and since Morrowind for magic users.

    There’s only been two times I put on heavy since 2016.
    Zerg of House Smallscale, First of his name, wielder of Volendrung, battleground hero, Cyrodiil butcher, the swifft footed, OG of the Templars and first pvpers, defender of scrolls and baiter of zergs.
  • GeorgeBlack
    GeorgeBlack
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    Alucardo wrote: »
    tbf they nerfed the crap out of the rest of the skill line. I think we should leave the SnB ult as is or it'd be a pile of junk.

    Yeah right... when SnB was also the ultimate aggressive choice.
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