For all their power and their hubris I believe the Tribunes are still only three separate living mortals. I would not consider it possible to mantle them, either individually or collectively

But, as I understand it, all that out-of-game MK stuff like mantling is meant to be like a creation kit for lore, for people to use to make up their own character stories or write fanfic. It's there to be accepted, adapted or ignored as individual players wish. So, go ahead, feel free. If you want your character to mantle Sotha Sil, Vivec or Almalexia I won't judge you

vestahls wrote: »

When it comes to ALMSIVI specifically, it might help that Vivec is one of them, because out of the three he is one (iIrc the only one of the Tribunal) that achieved CHIM, which actually made him stronger than any Divine, possibly stronger than most Daedra (certainly stronger than Azura, Mephala, and Boethia, who were considered the Good Daedra even while ALMSIVI were in power because they recognised the power of the Tribunal, and were subservient to it).

So in this case, they wouldn't need to have the Anticipations on their side, Vivec himself could do what Azura did for Nerevar.

But without Vivec's assistance, if someone wanted to mantle Almalexia for example, they might be faced with a challenge. Although beeing empowered via the Heart of Lorkhan, after one year away from it her power would already diminish; and with the heart destroyed, her divinity went away as well, which set her right back to whatever subgradient of creation beneath the divines she started out as being - i.e. she was just a mortal. And I'm not sure you can mantle mere mortals, when you mantle someone, the idea is you aim way above yourself.

Good point about Vivec, but I wonder, the Tribunal's power through the heart *does* put them well beyond any other mortal Dunmer, doesn't it? even the most powerful mages, like Neloth, or DIvayth Fyr, aren't equal to the power of ALMSIVI, so by attempting to mantle one of them, you would be aiming for something well beyond yourself, yea? And even so, even if Almalexia herself is a mere mortal, what about what she represents with her position within ALMSIVI? Would it be enough for someone to walk like the collective Dunmeri idea of her & embody the ideas & concepts she represents? If they could, would the result be Almalexia reborn, or would the mantler be something new, a 'different' or idealized form of what people *thought* Almalexia was?

ArgonianAssassin wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

When it comes to ALMSIVI specifically, it might help that Vivec is one of them, because out of the three he is one (iIrc the only one of the Tribunal) that achieved CHIM, which actually made him stronger than any Divine, possibly stronger than most Daedra (certainly stronger than Azura, Mephala, and Boethia, who were considered the Good Daedra even while ALMSIVI were in power because they recognised the power of the Tribunal, and were subservient to it).

So in this case, they wouldn't need to have the Anticipations on their side, Vivec himself could do what Azura did for Nerevar.

But without Vivec's assistance, if someone wanted to mantle Almalexia for example, they might be faced with a challenge. Although beeing empowered via the Heart of Lorkhan, after one year away from it her power would already diminish; and with the heart destroyed, her divinity went away as well, which set her right back to whatever subgradient of creation beneath the divines she started out as being - i.e. she was just a mortal. And I'm not sure you can mantle mere mortals, when you mantle someone, the idea is you aim way above yourself.

Good point about Vivec, but I wonder, the Tribunal's power through the heart *does* put them well beyond any other mortal Dunmer, doesn't it? even the most powerful mages, like Neloth, or DIvayth Fyr, aren't equal to the power of ALMSIVI, so by attempting to mantle one of them, you would be aiming for something well beyond yourself, yea? And even so, even if Almalexia herself is a mere mortal, what about what she represents with her position within ALMSIVI? Would it be enough for someone to walk like the collective Dunmeri idea of her & embody the ideas & concepts she represents? If they could, would the result be Almalexia reborn, or would the mantler be something new, a 'different' or idealized form of what people *thought* Almalexia was?

Almalexia, in her position as ALM, was the anticipation of Boethiah. While distinct, she wasn't anything entirely new or unique.

Moreover, there is no ALM without the power of the Heart. In the Tribunal DLC, we see that Almalexia is slipping into insanity as she attempts to cling to her position and the love of her people even as she feels her power draining away. She's losing the power that made her "ALM" and simply cannot handle it - lashing out at Sotha Sil, the Nerevarine, and the people of Mournhold in the process - instead of channeling what power she's has left to help with the destruction of Red Year everyone knows is coming. As much as Vivec is at fault for leaving Baar Dau in place until it was too late, Almalexia has the chance to work with the Nerevarine and Helseth to prepare for Red Year and acts selfishly instead, murdering Sotha Sil and trying to kill the Nerevarine to retain the love of her people as long as she can.

Essentially, without the Heart and the Tools, there's nothing separating Almalexia from other capable individuals like Divayth, Neloth or the Nerevarine. She knows it and that's part of what drives her to madness. The same is true of Sotha Sil - he's a very capable individual, certainly an honored advisor of Nerevar - but it took the Heart to make him anything more. In the Tribunal DLC, we see that he accepted this with much more dignity than Almalexia, which is part of why she murdered him. (Vivec is...YMMV depending on how much you like Kirkbride.)

That replacement of her and the others is essentially what happens in the Reclamations after Red Year. The Dunmer realize that just as they once revered the Tribunal as replacements for the Three Good Daedra of the Velothi people prior to Azura's curse/the use of the Heart, now the Three Good Daedra have reclaimed their original position. That's well in place as Morrowind's religious practice by Skyrim's Dragonborn DLC.

So one thing we can say is that in 200 years since Red Year, no one has done anything about mantling the Tribunal, at least that Neloth or the Redorans at Raven Rock knew about. I'm not surprised by this at all. ALM, SI, and VI utterly failed the Dunmer in leading to Red Year and have been soundly proven inferior to the Reclamations.


Personally, I don't see the point of anyone post Tribunal DLC/Red Year wanting to mantle the Tribunal or to reincarnate them. They were mortals who stole the power of the Heart to make themselves gods, then they gradually fell when they lost that source of power, taking a lot of people with them. There's not much there to mantle, what there is to mantle was stolen in the first place, and we know that reincarnation a la Nerevar is NOT an easy process.

Another big difference between Nerevar and the Tribunal is that there was a need for Nerevar Reincarnate. Facing the threat of Dagoth Ur, Morrowind needed a leader who could reunite Houses and Tribes while resisting the temptation of the Tools and revealing the lies of the Tribunal.
Who needs the Tribunal, who broke their promises to not use the tools and who's actions directly failed to defeat Dagoth Ur or prevent Red Year? Who needs Almalexia, especially, who's proven herself to be a tantrum-throwing murderer who can't handle losing her stolen power?

I suppose there's an interesting fanfiction plot bunny there - a Morrowind who really needs Almalexia back for a second chance in spite or because of all her flaws. But even if I were to write that, much of the interest would come from Almalexia grappling with her flaws, her limitations, and her mortality - all those things she failed to deal with constructively the first time.

vestahls wrote: »

When it comes to ALMSIVI specifically, it might help that Vivec is one of them, because out of the three he is one (iIrc the only one of the Tribunal) that achieved CHIM, which actually made him stronger than any Divine, possibly stronger than most Daedra (certainly stronger than Azura, Mephala, and Boethia, who were considered the Good Daedra even while ALMSIVI were in power because they recognised the power of the Tribunal, and were subservient to it).

So in this case, they wouldn't need to have the Anticipations on their side, Vivec himself could do what Azura did for Nerevar.

But without Vivec's assistance, if someone wanted to mantle Almalexia for example, they might be faced with a challenge. Although beeing empowered via the Heart of Lorkhan, after one year away from it her power would already diminish; and with the heart destroyed, her divinity went away as well, which set her right back to whatever subgradient of creation beneath the divines she started out as being - i.e. she was just a mortal. And I'm not sure you can mantle mere mortals, when you mantle someone, the idea is you aim way above yourself.

Can someone point to where in canon lore that mentions Vivec achieved CHIM? I know he does in MK's post-Bethesda fan fics, but I can't recall seeing that in actual canon, though I could be wrong.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

When it comes to ALMSIVI specifically, it might help that Vivec is one of them, because out of the three he is one (iIrc the only one of the Tribunal) that achieved CHIM, which actually made him stronger than any Divine, possibly stronger than most Daedra (certainly stronger than Azura, Mephala, and Boethia, who were considered the Good Daedra even while ALMSIVI were in power because they recognised the power of the Tribunal, and were subservient to it).

So in this case, they wouldn't need to have the Anticipations on their side, Vivec himself could do what Azura did for Nerevar.

But without Vivec's assistance, if someone wanted to mantle Almalexia for example, they might be faced with a challenge. Although beeing empowered via the Heart of Lorkhan, after one year away from it her power would already diminish; and with the heart destroyed, her divinity went away as well, which set her right back to whatever subgradient of creation beneath the divines she started out as being - i.e. she was just a mortal. And I'm not sure you can mantle mere mortals, when you mantle someone, the idea is you aim way above yourself.

Can someone point to where in canon lore that mentions Vivec achieved CHIM? I know he does in MK's post-Bethesda fan fics, but I can't recall seeing that in actual canon, though I could be wrong.

I would like to see that too.

I've always thought that inside the game Vivec's claims to be a Chimster were a complete fantasy on his part. There is so much evidence in the game of his epic failure to achieve CHIM, and none that I have ever found that corroborates his claim.