[Crafting Bag] For long-term player retention, should the Crafting Bag be more freely accessible?

Dusk_Coven · October 2019

SWTOR's recent Onslaught Update gave everyone their version of the bottomless Crafting Bag. For free.
On the other hand they have always been much more generous with inventory and alt support.

OG_Kaveman · October 2019

No. There has to be a good reason to sub. And I say that as a person that doesn't sub. Many people would drop the sub if the craft bag was free.

VaranisArano · October 2019

Nope.

Players who don't subscribe, like myself, get free ESO+ trials every 3-4 months to stuff our Crafting Bags full of mats. Long-term players have a number of other storage solutions like bank/bag space, housing storage, and mule characters.

Taleof2Cities · October 2019

With a player count approaching 14 million, I don't think ESO suffers from any retention issues, @Dusk_Coven ...

UrbanMonk · October 2019

Dusk_Coven · October 2019

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

With a player count approaching 14 million, I don't think ESO suffers from any retention issues, @Dusk_Coven ...

LOL
More like ACCOUNTS and lots of them BOTS that people who don't have the Crafting Bag buy from because they can't store.
If they did have the Crafting Bag maybe they'd play MORE because they can go gather stuff they need.

Emma_Overload · October 2019

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

No. There has to be a good reason to sub. And I say that as a person that doesn't sub. Many people would drop the sub if the craft bag was free.

I sub for the double bank space. I don't even need the crafting bag because I have my own guild bank. There is no substitute for normal bank slots, because you can't put bound items in a guild bank.

Tommy_The_Gun · October 2019

Poor inventory management and lack of space is the artificial problem ZOS created and now sells a solution for it (eso+ & craft bag). Paradoxally, Fallout 76 is now doing the same BS with 99 dolar subsription. Creating artificial problem to make the game less enjoyable and then charge you extra money to unsrew you, so the experience is not even more enjoyable, but the level of enjoyment is simply returned to "normal".

And just to be clear, I am not even talking about hoarding unused gear sets.

Are you aware that regular bank space (240 slots) is too little to keep even only top tier crafting mats ? It was not changed since game launched (2014), but in the meantime we got sit ton of new motive style materials and jevelry crafting materials. If they add for example spell crafting (that will obviously have new crafting materials) it is RIP for "normal" crafters. Imagine if people would start quiting the game since they will no longer be able to enjoy doing something as basic as crafting & enjoy the experience. It would have a seriouse effect of in-game econmy. Mind you that, eso+ users are the minority of eso players (tbh. I would be surprised if it was more than 10%).

Imho what ZOS should do, to avoid the problem they are going to face eventually, is to increse the bank space cap each chapter / dlc. I have not calculated it for a long time, but last time I did it was somethig like 260 slots needed to keep one stack of crafting mats (top tier mats only + motive mats) vs 240 maxed bank space slots.

Dusk_Coven · October 2019

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Poor inventory management and lack of space is the artificial problem ZOS created and now sells a solution for it (eso+ & craft bag). Paradoxally, Fallout 76 is now doing the same BS with 99 dolar subsription. Creating artificial problem to make the game less enjoyable and then charge you extra money to unsrew you, so the experience is not even more enjoyable, but the level of enjoyment is simply returned to "normal".

Ah, that's a good point. In SWTOR a lot of people had literally hundreds of thousands of units of mats but they still mostly had space for it, so in some ways the Crafting Bag there isn't as game-changing as it is here.
Individual toons there don't have a lot of space but there's a Cargo Bay for each toon and a Legacy Bank shared space, both of which have multiple tabs -- and they even recently increased the tab count by 1.
The super-hard-core collect-them-all set collectors (not even straight mats storage) use inventory mules all of which would have the fat Cargo Bay.
All of this on top of materials stacking to 9999.

So now that you've mentioned that, I can see how it couldn't fit in ESO's strategy.

Royaji · October 2019

I think that actual working perfomance improvements will help with player retention a lot more than any form of free crafting bag.

redlink1979 · October 2019

Why this again?! It's tiring...

It's all said and done about the craft bag: there's no value in the sub without it.

And no, we all know eso doesn't looses players because of the crafting bag.

Zacuel · October 2019

Pshhawwww I wish. But I live without it.

Alienoutlaw · October 2019

No its a perk for Subbing and Supporting the Game, unlike alot of MMO's subscription is Optional

tmbrinks · October 2019

No.

The craft bag isn't really needed unless you want to... craft.

Yes, the game drops a lot of things to make it an 'inventory management' issue, but if you're not a crafter, just destroy/don't pick up/sell the items, and you'll have plenty of space.

JKorr · October 2019

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

With a player count approaching 14 million, I don't think ESO suffers from any retention issues, @Dusk_Coven ...

LOL
More like ACCOUNTS and lots of them BOTS that people who don't have the Crafting Bag buy from because they can't store.
If they did have the Crafting Bag maybe they'd play MORE because they can go gather stuff they need.

Why on Nirn would getting the crafting bag convince *botters* who run the risk of having their accounts banned because they are botting play more? They are botting to get mats to get gold. Giving them the crafting bag isn't going to make them support the game.

beadabow · October 2019

For some ESO+ subscribers, the craft bag is probably the only thing that keeps them subscribing. I doubt the company will want to do anything to change that.

Dusk_Coven · October 2019

JKorr wrote: »

Why on Nirn would getting the crafting bag convince *botters* who run the risk of having their accounts banned because they are botting play more? They are botting to get mats to get gold. Giving them the crafting bag isn't going to make them support the game.

Ah I meant real people playing more.
Bots already don't care about being banned because they don't get banned.

Jayne_Doe · October 2019

This request is brought up a LOT, but I understand the origin of your question. Another MMO has much better inventory management, which just got even better with a new free craft bag. Why doesn't ESO do this?

The obvious answer is that it's a primary perk of ESO+. Since sub is optional in ESO, they do need to make the sub attractive. It's not the only reason players sub - players have many and varied reasons for subbing. But I think the craft bag is a major selling point.

Frankly, I wish it had been a free base-game update when it was introduced. Now, however, I think it would be problematic to remove it from ESO+. Would they get more players to play regularly? Perhaps, but presumably it would be at the cost of subs. Now, maybe those players will become so happy and will play a lot more and then spend more money in the Crown Store, but maybe not. There might not be any change to their spending habits even if they do play more. But I think it's pretty safe to assume that ZOS would lose subs.

That said, I do think ZOS need to do something about inventory. With new sets and mats each update, they really should increase bank slots. At least 300, I would think. Or some additional storage chests/coffers. These are great for storing sets or furniture, so that the bank can be used for mats, which can then be accessed at any crafting station.

Soella · October 2019

SWTOR is practically unplayable without sub, at least it was couple years ago when I last time played it. ESO is 100% playable without sub, sub has the only one real benefit - crafting bag, and I think it is pretty fair - huge quality of life advantage, but you can still live without it.

Jayne_Doe · October 2019

Soella wrote: »

SWTOR is practically unplayable without sub, at least it was couple years ago when I last time played it. ESO is 100% playable without sub, sub has the only one real benefit - crafting bag, and I think it is pretty fair - huge quality of life advantage, but you can still live without it.

Interesting, I got the impression that SWTOR was pretty playable since inventory sounded like it was pretty easy to manage and storage was plentiful. I guess they hamstring players in other ways, then?

Taleof2Cities · October 2019

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

With a player count approaching 14 million, I don't think ESO suffers from any retention issues, @Dusk_Coven ...

LOL
More like ACCOUNTS and lots of them BOTS that people who don't have the Crafting Bag buy from because they can't store.
If they did have the Crafting Bag maybe they'd play MORE because they can go gather stuff they need.

Even if only 10% of the total accounts are active players, @Dusk_Coven, that’s still 1.4 million players.

Unless you’d care to share your in-game population data ... that shows player retention is low enough to warrant drastic revenue model changes on ZOS’s end to survive.

Starlock · October 2019

The answer to this question really should be framed thusly:

It is a given that games are a form of entertainment and as such, are intended to be fun. As such, the primary design philosophy for any game should be "is it fun?" Is inventory management fun?

Aside from perhaps some very special folks out there who somehow enjoy sorting various objects in video games (and possibly also real life), the answer to this question is obviously no. Inventory management is NOT fun. And while inventory management probably can't be avoided entirely, when there is a clear mechanism in place designed to make it more of a pain in the rear than it needs to be, than that mechanism needs to go. When it doesn't go, that's a telltale sign of a video game being designed with predatory monetization in mind. The ONLY reason with games like ESO continue to allow such inventory management problems to exist in their games is so they can sell you the solution to the problem they refuse to fix.

So yes: the craft bag should be something available to everyone. Now more than ever considering how many more types of crafting materials there are today compared to launch.

Dusk_Coven · October 2019

Jayne_Doe wrote: »

Soella wrote: »

SWTOR is practically unplayable without sub, at least it was couple years ago when I last time played it. ESO is 100% playable without sub, sub has the only one real benefit - crafting bag, and I think it is pretty fair - huge quality of life advantage, but you can still live without it.

Interesting, I got the impression that SWTOR was pretty playable since inventory sounded like it was pretty easy to manage and storage was plentiful. I guess they hamstring players in other ways, then?

With Galactic Command you had to sub to get Galactic Command ranks. But without GC ranks you could still finish the Story mode content with no problems.
But with the new Renown system, Preferred players (f2p now but had bought stuff previously) can gain Renown Ranks at 1/4 speed. So they are incredibly generous with f2p. Plus their stories are super good and rich compared to ESO

Ackwalan · October 2019

SWTOR locks gear upgrade behind a subscription, ESO does not.

Dusk_Coven · October 2019

Ackwalan wrote: »

SWTOR locks gear upgrade behind a subscription, ESO does not.

Yeah but there's a workaround after about 3 upgrades: You arrange a private trade and pay them in installments that your f2p credit limit can handle. Pretty much all their "Crown Store" (Cartel Market) items are giftable. Can be hard to negotiate though, unless you know someone who trusts you and has a ton of Cartel Coins.

Another alternative is to accumulate Cartel Coins through the monthly grant that everyone can get from using a Security Key and buy it straight yourself.

Ri_Khan · October 2019

ZO$ has made it perfectly clear that they don't want freeloaders using up server resources. Apparently hamster feed is very expensive these days.

Thorvik_Tyrson · October 2019

Jayne_Doe wrote: »

Soella wrote: »

SWTOR is practically unplayable without sub, at least it was couple years ago when I last time played it. ESO is 100% playable without sub, sub has the only one real benefit - crafting bag, and I think it is pretty fair - huge quality of life advantage, but you can still live without it.

Interesting, I got the impression that SWTOR was pretty playable since inventory sounded like it was pretty easy to manage and storage was plentiful. I guess they hamstring players in other ways, then?

My wife and her long time WoW friend gave SWTOR a try about a year ago. As F2P players, they gave up in less than a week as they could not even use group chat without a sub. If your not trying to play with a friend, it may be a different experience. But they tried to play together and gave up.