A handicap leaderboard for the elite?

ChaosWotan · August 2019

In real life it's a sign of strength if a leader or warrior freely decides to play with a handicap during a contest, cf the handicap principle of the biologist Amotz Zahavi. So, perhaps one option that will make BG more fair and interesting for both the highly skilled and less talented is for ESO to introduce a leaderboard, with extra rewards, for elite gamers who freely choose to play with a handicap/debuff during matches with newbies and the untalented?

If ESO also introduces a division system, as seen in soccer games, players can initially freely decide whether they want to play in the last or first division, or on a level somewhere in between. But if the system notices that the k/d ratio of a gamer is very different from the k/d of other players in the same division, it will automatically kick him/her up or down a level (or more).

The problem, however, is that elite gamers will not have many people to compete with on the highest level. To solve this, one might create an algorithm which puts a debuff/handicap on a highly skilled gamer if he/she joins a match in one of the lower divisions.

But it might be difficult to create an algorithm that calculates the debuff fairly and accurately. Perhaps a way to avoid this problem is to introduce a handicap leaderboard system where an elite gamer freely decides, within some default parameters, how much handicap he/she wants to play with during a low division match.

The greater the handicap, the better rewards at the end of the match, in addition to a higher score on the leaderboard. This system might be called the leaderboard of honor, since it encourages individuals to play honorably.

Ash_In_My_Sujamma · August 2019

Ancient Spartans used to throw their handicaped newborn children in a chasm called Caeadas. Your idea is similar but in reverse.
Also, making special categories for "untalented" players? What are your criteria for this demographic? And why on earth would you want to "handicap" someone? Is this a new trend? Lowering our standards instead of trying to improve?
You are also using the word honor but tbh this is a prettey messed up idea.
Maybe I just don't get it, I don't know...

ChaosWotan · August 2019

As already mentioned, players may initially choose freely whether to play in a low or high division. Their k/d ratio will then determine where they belong, relative to the skill level of other gamers who are currently active.

For example, if an elite gamer decides to "massacre" noobs in the lowest division, the system will detect that his/her k/d is 25/0 while other gamers on the same level has a much more balanced k/d, like 6/7 for instance.

Of course, it's not a goal in itself to handicap the elite. I'm not a communist. The point is to give highly skilled gamers a chance to play fair matches together with the less talented during times when few elite gamers are online, thereby preventing that a very skilled gamer must wait a long time until his or her equals join BG.

A leaderboard system like that can also be implemented in a way that encourages diversity in gear and skill choice, allowing talented gamers to play with gear that's fun but far from meta.

VaranisArano · August 2019

We know that the MMR isn't great, but a I'm having a hard time thinking up a "handicap" that would adequately compensate for a, very experienced PVPer's knowledge of tactics, builds, combos, counters, and the terrain.

It doesnt help that all I can think of is:

ChaosWotan · August 2019

It's easy to handicap anyone in ESO, with lingering poison before the match, courtesy of the game fixers in the Thief Guild or the Dark Brotherhood.

But this is only my 50 cents, to the debate about how to improve BG. If others have better ideas that will make it possible to have a fair match between the worst and best gamers in ESO, without complaints, then choose that instead.

Ash_In_My_Sujamma · August 2019

ChaosWotan wrote: »

As already mentioned, players may initially choose freely whether to play in a low or high division. Their k/d ratio will then determine where they belong, relative to the skill level of other gamers who are currently active.

For example, if an elite gamer decides to "massacre" noobs in the lowest division, the system will detect that his/her k/d is 25/0 while other gamers on the same level has a much more balanced k/d, like 6/7 for instance.

Of course, it's not a goal in itself to handicap the elite. I'm not a communist. The point is to give highly skilled gamers a chance to play fair matches together with the less talented during times when few elite gamers are online, thereby preventing that a very skilled gamer must wait a long time until his or her equals join BG.

A leaderboard system like that can also be implemented in a way that encourages diversity in gear and skill choice, allowing talented gamers to play with gear that's fun but far from meta.

I agree that the already existing mmr system is awful but I believe that your idea would only cause more problems in a larger scale for the game. I think that something else like solo/group and casual/ranked queues would give players more control over their battleground matchmaking.
But then someone might say "but then the population queueing would spread thin and there wil be long queueing times". To that I respond: Make it good and they will come.

ChaosWotan · August 2019

But how many casuals will choose to join the queue for ranked players? I mean, VMA leaderboards are sometimes not even full, so what's the chance that many casuals will join a ranked game when the chance of winning is higher in the queue that clearly matches their own skill level? The result will prb once again be that it's lonely at the top.

JusticeForJilarga · August 2019

This one completely disagrees. The game should instead make it easier for "Casuals" to find the best class setup for them. This one thinks that everyone should get a free target practice dummy and a way to try out new skill combinations without constantly respecing.

ChaosWotan · August 2019

A "leaderboard of honor" is meant to be an extra separate leaderboard, it should not replace the old one. It can therefore be combined with 1) better training conditions for casuals and 2) different queues for ranked and unranked matches in the old system.

But implementing only 1) and 2) will prb not solve the problem of veteran gamers having to wait a long time before finding equals to compete with, because my impression is that ESO no longer has the large and enthusiastic pvp community that existed pre-IC when the game was sub-based.

Today, it seems like ESO caters mainly to casuals who perceive it as just another game in their Xbox collection, and people like that will never have the time or be undaunted enough to compete with a master in light attack weaving.

A division system, as described in the OP, can encourage competition and progress by giving players better rewards when they manage to enter and stay in a higher division.

Top tier gamers can view it as a challenge to get a high score in the alternative handicap leaderboard, since it will become more difficult when voluntarily increasing the handicap before a match, but the rewards will also be greater.

VaranisArano · August 2019

ChaosWotan wrote: »

A "leaderboard of honor" is meant to be an extra separate leaderboard, it should not replace the old one. It can therefore be combined with 1) better training conditions for casuals and 2) different queues for ranked and unranked matches in the old system.

But implementing only 1) and 2) will prb not solve the problem of veteran gamers having to wait a long time before finding equals to compete with, because my impression is that ESO no longer has the large and enthusiastic pvp community that existed pre-IC when the game was sub-based.

Today, it seems like ESO caters mainly to casuals who perceive it as just another game in their Xbox collection, and people like that will never have the time or be undaunted enough to compete with a master in light attack weaving.

A division system, as described in the OP, can encourage competition and progress by giving players better rewards when they manage to enter and stay in a higher division.

Top tier gamers can view it as a challenge to get a high score in the alternative handicap leaderboard, since it will become more difficult when voluntarily increasing the handicap before a match, but the rewards will also be greater.

Personally, I suspect the loss of the large and enthusiastic PVP community has a little more to do with years of neglecting performance issues. BGs has always struggled for population, but I'm sure the current queue problems don't help.

ChaosWotan · August 2019

I played mainly in 2014/15, with lots of lag in Cyro, but the pvp community (here in EP EU) dissolved after the disappointment of Imperial City.

Anyway, ESO clearly focuses on PvE content. The majority of casual gamers who prefer housing and rpg will prb never like the competitive MMO aspect of PvP today.

But if ESO creates an additional honor leaderboard for elite "hardmode" pvp, as described above, it's prb necessary to give untalented gamers an option to quit a match in the old system we have now, without any penalty, if they get tired of being massacred by elite players who just want to farm them. That will hopefully motivate the farmers to drop that kind of gaming and start to play on a lower level with a handicap that rewards them plenty for doing so.

JusticeForJilarga · August 2019

A "leaderboard of honor" is completely pointless. Everyone has a different opinion of "Honour." Therefore not everyone will use or agree with this. Plus I doubt those at the top would give up power for a Mediocre reward. This one hopes no offence but this seems like a waste of Dev time.

ChaosWotan · August 2019

Anyone with normal empathy and sense of fairness will agree that it's not honorable to decimate the weak in combat or winning a sport contest when the opponent is clearly on a much lower skill level.

But the name of a new system is not important. If people don't like the honorable warrior theme an option is to create a rpg storyline based on game fixing and the thief guild, for instance, as I mentioned earlier, or something else.

Those who have read the posts here will see that I'm talking about the opposite of mediocre rewards. Anyway, very skilled gamers farming noobs will have little option than to change strategy if the devs give the weak the freedom to quit the match, without any penalty, when being constantly wiped by the strong.

JusticeForJilarga · August 2019

If a team was winning in basketball 20 to 0, do you think they would hand the ball to the losing team? Of course not!

If a country was completing annihilating the others in a war, would they give the enemies some resources? Definitely not!

Like it or not Cyrodiil is a highly competitive place and in the story a war zone. It doesn't make sense to on purpose put a handicap on yourself when you are fighting for the Ruby Throne. Your teammates won't like it. Because you aren't playing to your full strengths. The alliance leaders definitely won't like it. If you think Queen Ayrenn, High King Emeric or King Jorunn are going to reward you for this you are mistaken.

The only people this makes sense for is those who are losing. For that this one Suggests try finding more people, practising with a group and making sure you have a good amount of Healers, DPS and Tanks.

This one has hopefully explained how this won't make any sense from a Story or Competitive point of view. This one advises if you are looking for a game like this to play something else instead.

ChaosWotan · August 2019

Perhaps you should have noticed that I'm talking about BG, not Cyro where people are free to come and go as they please.

In war, people are also free to surrender, but not much farming for vet gamers if noobs simply surrender and withdraw from a match when being constantly overrun.

All in all I guess we just have to agree to disagree. But if you want to keep it real, take into consideration that good soldiers in a real war are often forced to fight together with incompetent people, which not seldom are their superiors, so don't complain if your team members are noobs in BG, if reality is the standard. Or more correctly, complain like hell but don't expect that anybody cares.

ChunkyCat · August 2019

This post is full of nerds.

ChaosWotan · August 2019

Nerds FTW, any general will tell you that.