Were the Dwemer Always an Extinct race in Elder Scrolls Games?

VaranisArano · July 2019

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Orcs and Dwemer co-existed as distinct cultures. They were not the same. The creation of the Orcs was in the early Merethic era or late Dawn era ..

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Also, I can't find any account of any major battles between Argonians and Orcs, does that mean all Orcs are actually Argonian?

Please, read it again slowly: "Because no really valuable (not legendary or mythic) events in the history of the Orc clans even exist before those events." On Argonians and Orcs - of course that doesn't and it's no surprise you can't find not only any of those battles between them but also a single adequate cue to think Argonians to be Orcs. That is why we are talking exactly about the Rourken Dwemeri clan. Separate co-existence would have in any way be stated somewhere in the lore. You know those examples yourself. Please, read the posts above to have answers on your questions.

You want evidence of separate co-existence?

The 3rd Pocket Guide to the Empire section on Hammerfall specifically says that Orcs were a danger to early settlers in Hammerfall prior to the arrival of the Rourken, as it necessitated building outposts like Sentinel for protection. https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Hammerfell

The same source also makes it clear that the Rourken shared the fate of their Dwemer brethren, vanishing, and their cities were left in ruins for scavengers and pirates to pick over.

But lorebooks can have unreliable narrators, right? Heh, the most obvious contemporaneous existence is shown on the island of Betnikh in ESO.

When you do the quests there, we learn that the ruins of Carzog's demise, containing the memories of warring Bretons and Orcs, was sealed during the Direnni Hegemony which lasted from 1E 355-498, with the lore stating "Way before the Balfiera Elves sealed this Ayleid ruin during the Direnni Hegemony, the Orcs used this place for a very different purpose—as you will see in these ancient memories …." https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Carzog's_Demise_(place)

The Rourken arrived in Hammerfall in 1E 420...and disappeared with the rest of the Dwemer with the War of the First Council in 1E 668 or 1E 700 depending on your source.

Therefore, the events we see in memories on Betnikh happened well before the Direnni Hegemony, which happened well before the Rourken disappeared. They were in the same area at the same time after 1E 420, but the Orcs were clearly present first as shown in ESO's gameplay on Betnikh. The ruins containing the memories and ghosts of Orcs on Betnitkh were sealed at the very very latest in 1E 498, while the Rourken disappeared with their kin over a century later.

So in ESO and in the lorebooks, we have clear evidence of contemporaneous existence of Orcs and Dwemer. The Rourken did not become the Orcs.

Its an interesting fan theory, but its not supported by the lore OR the gameplay.

Aigym_Hlervu · July 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

Heh, the most obvious contemporaneous existence is shown on the island of Betnikh in ESO.

When you do the quests there, we learn that the ruins of Carzog's demise, containing the memories of warring Bretons and Orcs, was sealed during the Direnni Hegemony which lasted from 1E 355-498, with the lore stating "Way before the Balfiera Elves sealed this Ayleid ruin during the Direnni Hegemony, the Orcs used this place for a very different purpose—as you will see in these ancient memories …." https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Carzog's_Demise_(place)

The Rourken arrived in Hammerfall in 1E 420...and disappeared with the rest of the Dwemer with the War of the First Council in 1E 668 or 1E 700 depending on your source.

Therefore, the events we see in memories on Betnikh happened well before the Direnni Hegemony, which happened well before the Rourken disappeared.

Ah, gameplay loadscreens.. Well.. Sorry for using these numbers:
1. "Nine generations ago, the island of Betony was conquered by the Seamount Orcs, who renamed it Betnikh. A proud, self-reliant people, the Orcs fiercely protect their new home from incursion by outsiders." - states the loadscreen. It's 2E 582-583 now in ESO. Nine generations of bretons and orcs - local inhabitants - or even those long living Altmeri? So, please, calculate those nine generations down. Those several thousands of years down to 1E498 or even earlier to have only 9 generations? It's centuries, not those thousands of years of, say it, nine hundred generations.
2. You give only one loadscreen quote while there are two of them. I guess you've forgotten to mention another one. I'll do:
"Ancient Carzog's Demise: Way before the Balfiera Elves sealed this Ayleid ruin during the Direnni Hegemony, the Orcs used this place for a very different purpose—as you will see in these ancient memories …."
"Carzog's Demise: The Ayleid Sanctuary on Betnikh was sealed by the Balfiera Elves during the Direnni Hegemony, and its tunnels were never explored or catalogued by the Bretons who came after. They might contain … anything." - I thought the Orcs were the ones who came to press the Bretons down, not vice versa. But these screens seem to say that the Orcs has already been on the Isle long before the Direnni Hegemony and the Bretons only came after, do they?
3. Finally the same source you've just mentioned states that: "Bretons inhabited the island for untold years, but in the Second Era, despite the reputation of their defenses, they were driven off by the Seamount Orcs, who renamed the island Betnikh"

Along the Imperial "unreliable narrators" as you've said, the event seems to be dated approximately back to the end of the First Era or the beginning of the Second - about a couple of thousands years after the disappearance of the Resdayn Dwemer clans. So I can't witness any Dwemer and Orcs separate co-existence here. To say it more about game mechanics on different in-game visions and lore: the in-game Ordinator Edict Mandate Seven, referencing The Seventeenth Dictum of Piety strictly prohibits to wear an Ordinator regalia to anyone except the members of the Order sanctioning the violators to death on sight. But no one chases you down be you an old Argonian or a Khajiiti maid wearing this armor. Well, you know yourself how it works, I'm not the one to tell you this..

This "fan theory" still holds. I think it is more a developers theory, not a fan one. We play their games and they play us. So, let us just be a bit more kind to each other - I'm trying myself to find a straight evidence I'm wrong to think the Orcs are the former Rourken clan Dwemeri but still all I know and do remember of lore and TES games witnesses they really are by this moment. Your example of the Betnikh events is not an evidence they are not.

VaranisArano · July 2019

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Heh, the most obvious contemporaneous existence is shown on the island of Betnikh in ESO.

When you do the quests there, we learn that the ruins of Carzog's demise, containing the memories of warring Bretons and Orcs, was sealed during the Direnni Hegemony which lasted from 1E 355-498, with the lore stating "Way before the Balfiera Elves sealed this Ayleid ruin during the Direnni Hegemony, the Orcs used this place for a very different purpose—as you will see in these ancient memories …." https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Carzog's_Demise_(place)

The Rourken arrived in Hammerfall in 1E 420...and disappeared with the rest of the Dwemer with the War of the First Council in 1E 668 or 1E 700 depending on your source.

Therefore, the events we see in memories on Betnikh happened well before the Direnni Hegemony, which happened well before the Rourken disappeared.

Ah, gameplay loadscreens.. Well.. Sorry for using these numbers:
1. "Nine generations ago, the island of Betony was conquered by the Seamount Orcs, who renamed it Betnikh. A proud, self-reliant people, the Orcs fiercely protect their new home from incursion by outsiders." - states the loadscreen. It's 2E 582-583 now in ESO. Nine generations of bretons and orcs - local inhabitants - or even those long living Altmeri? So, please, calculate those nine generations down. Those several thousands of years down to 1E498 or even earlier to have only 9 generations? It's centuries, not those thousands of years of, say it, nine hundred generations.
2. You give only one loadscreen quote while there are two of them. I guess you've forgotten to mention another one. I'll do:
"Ancient Carzog's Demise: Way before the Balfiera Elves sealed this Ayleid ruin during the Direnni Hegemony, the Orcs used this place for a very different purpose—as you will see in these ancient memories …."
"Carzog's Demise: The Ayleid Sanctuary on Betnikh was sealed by the Balfiera Elves during the Direnni Hegemony, and its tunnels were never explored or catalogued by the Bretons who came after. They might contain … anything." - I thought the Orcs were the ones who came to press the Bretons down, not vice versa. But these screens seem to say that the Orcs has already been on the Isle long before the Direnni Hegemony and the Bretons only came after, do they?
3. Finally the same source you've just mentioned states that: "Bretons inhabited the island for untold years, but in the Second Era, despite the reputation of their defenses, they were driven off by the Seamount Orcs, who renamed the island Betnikh"

Along the Imperial "unreliable narrators" as you've said, the event seems to be dated approximately back to the end of the First Era or the beginning of the Second - about a couple of thousands years after the disappearance of the Resdayn Dwemer clans. So I can't witness any Dwemer and Orcs separate co-existence here. To say it more about game mechanics on different in-game visions and lore: the in-game Ordinator Edict Mandate Seven, referencing The Seventeenth Dictum of Piety strictly prohibits to wear an Ordinator regalia to anyone except the members of the Order sanctioning the violators to death on sight. But no one chases you down be you an old Argonian or a Khajiiti maid wearing this armor. Well, you know yourself how it works, I'm not the one to tell you this..

This "fan theory" still holds. I think it is more a developers theory, not a fan one. We play their games and they play us. So, let us just be a bit more kind to each other - I'm trying myself to find a straight evidence I'm wrong to think the Orcs are the former Rourken clan Dwemeri but still all I know and do remember of lore and TES games witnesses they really are by this moment. Your example of the Betnikh events is not an evidence they are not.

There's one point of your theory that just makes zero sense to me.

What are your sources for the Rourken?

Because I want to read them.

The only sources I can find that mention them are the ones linked here: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Rourken

Namely, that's the 3rd Pocket Guide, 1st Pocket Guide, and the Improved Emperor's Guide, and they say the same thing. Those books say the Rourken disappeared with the rest of the Dwemer. The 3rd and Improved (from the more recent games Oblivion and ESO) say their cities were then left in ruins for scavengers, rather than your comment describing them facing a protracted struggle with the Yokudans.

In Tamrielic Lore (first included in Morrowind and Oblivion) Yagrum Bagarn, the only living Dwemer, mentions Spellbreaker's use in the battle of Rourken-Shalidor, but nothing more. The same text is copied in ESO and TES 3 Tribunal under a different title, minus Yagrum's authorship. This one doesnt have much impact on the debate here, but I mention it for completeness' sake.

Do you have any other sources that mention the Rourken? Am I missing some obvious lore somewhere because of my failire at Google-fu?

Otherwise, from where I'm sitting, you just called the only books I can find that even mention the Rourken Clan "unreliable." If you've got other actual lore sources talking about the Rourken, I can't find them, and I want to read what you've got. No speculation please, just the actual sources. Thanks.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · July 2019

kylewwefan wrote: »

Wait a minute. The Dwemer that remained were transformed to orcs? You know there’s much controversy about the Orcs relation to Elves right. Like thread closing name calling malarkey. That is something truly fascinating. I got to let that sink in for awhile.

Yeah sorry about that thread. I had no idea it would escalate so much.

kylewwefan · July 2019

Some things mulling over in my head

The Dwemer Dwarves created their own god Numidium and bound their souls to it. When this created god was later killed by something, all the Dwemer vanished.

Except those that refused to bind their souls to it? That would be the Rourken Clan? Maybe. They Followed their King Dwarf-Orc Dumalacath

Boethiah’s immortal son Nerevar, killed the Dwarf-Orc King Dumalacath and then ate his heart.

Boethiah ate Trinimac and pooped out Malacath.

Is the Dwarf-Orc King Dumalacath the same person as Malacath?

Is Trinimac and Malacath the same person with different names?

Would Dwarf-Orc King Dumalacath then also be the same person as Trinimac?

Other names Dwarf-Orc King Dumalacath went by, Orkey and Old Knocker are synonymous with Malacath.

Is this the same Boethiah from Dragonstar Arena?

Later the Tribunal who is Almalexia, Vivec, and Sotha Sil killed Nerevar so they could use tools on Lorkhans Heart? And that’s the event that turned the Chimer into Dunmer.

All of these things happen in the presence of a God who controls time (Akatosh) He can pop in and out and place things through time as he sees fit.

Benzux · July 2019

kylewwefan wrote: »

Some things mulling over in my head

The Dwemer Dwarves created their own god Numidium and bound their souls to it. When this created god was later killed by something, all the Dwemer vanished.

Except those that refused to bind their souls to it? That would be the Rourken Clan? Maybe. They Followed their King Dwarf-Orc Dumalacath

Boethiah’s immortal son Nerevar, killed the Dwarf-Orc King Dumalacath and then ate his heart.

Boethiah ate Trinimac and pooped out Malacath.

Is the Dwarf-Orc King Dumalacath the same person as Malacath?

Is Trinimac and Malacath the same person with different names?

Would Dwarf-Orc King Dumalacath then also be the same person as Trinimac?

Other names Dwarf-Orc King Dumalacath went by, Orkey and Old Knocker are synonymous with Malacath.

Is this the same Boethiah from Dragonstar Arena?

Later the Tribunal who is Almalexia, Vivec, and Sotha Sil killed Nerevar so they could use tools on Lorkhans Heart? And that’s the event that turned the Chimer into Dunmer.

All of these things happen in the presence of a God who controls time (Akatosh) He can pop in and out and place things through time as he sees fit.

Numidium wasn't necessarily a "God", nor was it ever "killed". Numidium also goes by the name "The Brass Tower", and it acts as one of The Towers that keep the mortal plane of existence, Mundus, stable. Other Towers include the Adamantine Tower on the Isle of Balfiera, erected by the Aedra themselves, the White-Gold Tower in the centre of the Imperial City, created by the long-lost Ayleids ("Heartland High Elves"), the volcano Red Mountain ("Red Tower") in Vvardenfell, the mountain Throat of the World ("Snow Tower") in Skyrim, the Crystal-like-Law ("Crystal Tower") in Summerset, the Orichalc Tower in Yokuda (a now-sunken continent to the west of Tamriel where the ancestors of the Redguards came from) and finally Green-Sap, a collection of Graht-Oaks within Valenwood, including the great Elden Tree itself, as well as the walking city of Falinesti. I won't go too deep into the metaphysics that are The Towers, but basically, each one has a central "stone" (not necessarily a literal stone) that acts as the Tower's heart. If this "heart" is removed, the Tower is deactivated, and if all Towers are deactivated... Well, we don't know what happens. The Thalmor of the 4th Era think it will allow the Altmer to ascend to godhood, but most likely it would just cause Mundus to implode upon itself and cease existing. By the 4th Era, a lot of these Towers have been deactivated (Orichalc Tower, Crystal Tower, Red Tower and Brass Tower), while the status of others is unknown (Green-sap, White-Gold Tower and Snow Tower)
As for the Dwemer binding their souls to the Numidium, that's one theory as to what happened to race, but it isn't proven. As has been said multiple times, we don't know what happened to the Dwemer, what caused their disappearance, or where they are now. We can only speculate, and the various theories each have things that prove and disprove them. So far, the whole "Rourken clan turned into the Orsimer" theory is the least likely one, given the amount of evidence that suggests otherwise. Still, it's a theory, though an unlikely one (and one that many won't accept, as it would turn a lot of things upside down within the lore).

Trinimac and Malacath are different entities entirely. Trinimac is either an Aedra who served under Auri-El in his war against Lorkhan during the Dawn Era, or an Ancestor Spirit of the Altmer(which could also be true, since technically the Elves are descended of the Aedra, which would make Trinimac their "Ancestor Spirit" even if he was an Aedra). Some Orsimer and Altmer still revere Trinimac, but it's likely that he is no more, his remains having been transformed into Malacath.

As for the names, "Orkey" and "Old Knocker" are names used for Malacath by the Nords of Skyrim, and they are in no way related to Dumac.

Yes, it is the same Boethiah from Dragonstar Arena. He/She is the Daedric Prince of Deceit, Secret Plots of Murder, and a plethora of other things. Also one of the "Three Good Daedra" of the Dunmer, though in ESO you'll most likely see him/her being referred to as the "Anticipation of Almalexia".

kylewwefan · July 2019

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Heart_of_Lorkhan

You forced me to do research. So, Numidium was never alive. The Dwemer, well Kagrenac was attempting to give it life by attaching the heart of lorkhan to it somehow. They failed and vanished.

Oh, and this Heart of Lorkhan is also the centerpiece of all of Nirn. That was nice to know.

King Dumac apparently wanted no parts of this. I’m guessing this is the whole thing with throwing Vollendrung and settling where it landed came in.

But wait, then there’s this : https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dumac

Well that was interesting. I was wrong. Was this the Rourken clan thing? Why was Dumac called the Dwarf Orc king?

Oh wait: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Rourken

Nope, they all disappeared too. And These people left King Dumac, because they didn’t like his alliance with the Chimer. Who hadn’t been turned into dark elves yet.

Why do they call this guy The Dwarf-Orc King?

I learned that Kagrenac was a Dwemer and was the one trying to harness the power of Lorkhans Heart to make the Dwemer their own God.

Then if you really want your mind blown, check this out: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Wars#The_War_of_the_First_Council

Oh, and there’s no need to feel sorry for these Dwemer. They did some pretty despicable deeds too.

The Falmer that you fight with in Skyrim (freaky little goblin dudes) are the descendants of original Snow Elves that took Sanctuary with the Dwemer after getting their teeth kicked in by nords.

The Dwemer made them eat some freaky fungus poison that would weaken them so they could control them.

Aigym_Hlervu · July 2019

Benzux wrote: »

..we don't know what happened to the Dwemer, what caused their disappearance, or where they are now. We can only speculate, and the various theories each have things that prove and disprove them. So far, the whole "Rourken clan turned into the Orsimer" theory is the least likely one, given the amount of evidence that suggests otherwise. Still, it's a theory, though an unlikely one (and one that many won't accept, as it would turn a lot of things upside down within the lore).

Hello, guys. @kylewwefan, actually all the real point of the above mentioned debate that took such a huge space was about just a single word that @Benzux so accurately stated in his quote above: it's the word "least" in the phrase "Rourken clan turned into the Orsimer" theory is the least likely one.." - my point was it's the "most likely one". So much debate around a single word

.

But. I do have honor in such matters. I've just recalled something that my respected opponents should have stated themselves to support their positions on the Rourken-Orc transformation impossibility instead of appealing to popularity of a conventional theory, retelling those well known lorebooks or giving me some weak proofs like that Betnikh loadscreen text reference. It is refuted with ease. What could really confound everything I stated is Abamath. Found in Malabal Tor this Ayleid ruin (thanks to the uesp source it helps to remind an original text) gives us the following:
1. "When the Daedra-worshiping Ayleids fled from Alessia's Slave Rebellion in Cyrodiil, many of the clans went south into Valenwood. Legend has it that the Abamath Ayleids drove a tribe of Wood Orcs out an existing cave system and converted it to their own uses."
It took place between 1E 243 and 1E 361 - the Nords threw weight about in Morrowind at that time 59-177 years before the Rourken left modern day Morrowind. And who else could build a Shrine to Malacath there if not the Orcs? The present lore says - nobody.
2. Boethiah, trying to stop those s'wits from summoning Malacath there says: "The Worm Cult is of no interest to me for the moment, but Mauloch cannot be allowed to invade Nirn. We have history, Mauloch and I. It would amuse me to see his plan destroyed.". Yes, Boethiah is the Lord of deceit, but we have no other history these two could have if not the one we know from lore myths about devouring Trinimac and turning him and his Aldmer followers into Malacath and the Orcs respectively. While it's been never stated in the lore the Dwemer to be the descendants of Aldmer, only Aldmer could ever be turned into the Orcs. If only both the two folks turned into the Orcs at different times but this is really groundless.

This I can really say nothing on. Both sources are trusted even more than any lorebook, it's irrefutable and makes the "Rourken-Orc" theory not even the least likely but almost impossible and turns my opinion on that matter into a wrong one. As yet

. So, @kylewwefan, I think you have not all but enough basic information on the matter. My part is over here, gentlemen, thank you all for a good debate.

kylewwefan · July 2019

My interest was the Dwemer, not so much the Orcs. I know there’s a ton of mystery around how orcs came to be. The Dwemer though, were a well Known race that vanished at a semi well known time.

I’ve still no idea why their king was known as Dwarf-Orc king and why his name is so very close to Orcish God.

I came across a reddit forum that was talking about Trinimac ripping the heart out of Lorkhan and stomping on the mouth of Boethiah and that’s when Boethiah ate him. And Trinimac was a God killer and no one could ever trust him for that. it was a whole figurative thing about him feeling bad about what he had done.

Oh, and that would have been way before any of this Dwemer stuff had happened. It would had been in Dawn era; I think before even Merethic era; and that would be thousands of years before the first era.

And then why so many Dwarven Weapons/armors became Malacath’s daedric artifacts. It seems more than coincidence.

And then Nerevar, that just so happens to be the son of Boethiah is also so closely ingrained into Dwemer Lore and Orcish creation at the same time.

The cause of Trinimac ripping the heart of Lorkhan out of his body and then the Dwemer messing around with the heart of Lorkhan (that became known as the battle of Council or the Battle at red mountain) are very much the same type of thing. I think. Maybe?

These things are undoubtedly somehow related, and many theories about how things came to be are...to say the least very interesting.

But after searching around for a week or so and still having no definitive answers. This ones just ready Move on with things.

This stuff would have happened way before any time period you actually play in TES games, so it’s kind of “ nice to know” information, but won’t really affect anything.

I do really detest having to take this liberal way out, but I can’t keep going down this rabbit hole.

wenchmore420b14_ESO · July 2019

@kylewwefan,
Loving TES Lore myself, I know how confusing it can be.
I have immersed myself in TES Lore since 2004 with Morrowind.
As far as this discussion, I agree with @VaranisArano concerning the Rourken Clan NOT being the Orcs.

Not sure what sites and links you have found on TES Lore, but here are a few really good ones for canon, not fan fic, lore.
Hope this helps with your search for Tamrielic knowledge! Huzzah!!

https://www.imperial-library.info/
Probably the oldest TES lore site online. Est 1998, they have every book from every game, calender's, info, etc. My first go to site for lore research.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Main_Page
One of THE best sites for everything Elder Scrolls. And many of their admins are active on these forums.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0Od2lbw9N4&list=PLgAMhJBJInPdFMVCMfT-N_OEeaUK9YLuH&index=17&t=34s

As far as YouTube channels, These guys are really good in their production. They are 99% accurate on lore and are mentioned in the book in Chalman Keep... (Remember the Chalamo!!) Lol....

Camelworks is another good source for obscure lore, but he does a great job.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GKgQA61B3Y&list=PLgAMhJBJInPdFMVCMfT-N_OEeaUK9YLuH&index=57&t=0s

Lastly, FudgeMuppet has a great series of lore videos.

Hope this helps in your search to sort out TES Lore.
Huzzah!!!!

ghastley · July 2019

Just a point of clarification:

"The Five Songs of King Wulfharth":
The second song: "He <Wulfharth> fights the eastern Orcs and shouts their chief into Hell" - so, what do we have here? Wulfharth was the king of Skyrim, he had only Morrowind to the East of him. But as for the time of the first Era the history does not indicate neither the presence of any orc clans there, nor even an orc chief or a king.

This refers to the "eastern Orcs" and makes the assumption that they were to the east of Skyrim. In fact they were those occupying the eastern part of the Orc lands, which were all to the west of Skyrim. The "eastern" part is from the Orcs' perspective, not the Nords'. Of course the eastern Orcs were those just beyond Skyrim's western border, and thus in most contact.

Aigym_Hlervu · July 2019

Hmm.. Yes, I think you might be right, thank you! I guess it's kind of a cultural miscomprehension - I can't imagine a situation Wulfharth fighting the western Orcs with the eastern ones being between them. It's kind of illogical to me due to the fact I can't recall the Orcs made such a disjunction ever and fought each other with a betrayer part of them allied with the Nords at that time. Otherwise why call them exactly the "eastern" Orcs? I have already seen some illogical things like when the Akaviri bypassed Morrowind to invade Skyrim or when the Covenant troops performed a full scale invasion through Bal Foyen and Stonefalls instead of invading Skyrim or Vvardenfell. They've all even shown some success before finally expiring as all the invaders do here. Also Zimmeron likes to give those delusioned daily orders to take an enemy deep rear keep in Cyrodiil while all the forces are on the defences. I think he's just nuts or something. But I understand what you mean, so, yes, I guess you might be right.