[2 PvP Oriented Suggestions] Disable Camera Offset / Fix For Minor Bow Issue

Haltus_Kain · April 2014

...I don't see a suggestions forum... is there one?

Anyway, these two suggestions are applicable to all aspects of the game, but I think they'd shine most in PvP situations, so I guess this forum is the best spot for this duscussion for now. ^_^

Diving right in...

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First suggestion:

Please add an option to disable or customize the camera offset.

Currently the camera wanders to the right when you zoom out; then kind of boomerang's back to center as you zoom out further.

When the camera is centered (See A. below), movement is very intuitive. You can kind of draw an imaginary line from your character to the center of the screen, and have a really good idea if exactly what direction your toon will move when you press W.

When the camera is off to the right, it is kind of disorienting, and makes precision movements difficult, because it lacks the intuitive simplicity of the centered camera... you can't draw that imaginary line because the frame of reference is unclear... does it still start at the character and go to the screen center (B.)? Does it start at the character and go to left-of-screen-center (C.)? Does it ignore the character, and go from where the character would be if centered, to screen center (D.)? It leaves an area of uncertainty that increases exponentially with distance (E.).

Anywho, I'm sure some like it the way it is, so please make this optional; or even give us a little slide bar in the settings so that we can control how far to the side the camera goes, and even which side if goes to (for folks who would prefer their character set more on the right side of the screen).

Me personally, I like it old school, with things centered and simple. ^_^

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Second suggestion:

This is a minor issue, but I've noticed a bit of a hindrance when using a bow that doesn't effect any other weapon (at least not one that I've used so far, but I've tried most).

The problem is the mechanics of the L-Click attack.

With a bow, when you press and hold L-Click, you will nock and arrow and draw the bowstring. That action will not change until L-Click is released.

With anything else, when you press and hold L-Click, you will 'power up' to the strongest version of the attack; execute the attack; and repeat until L-Click is released

In other words, with most weapons, holding L-Click will dish out the maximum DPS that L-click is capable of; but with a bow, holding L-Click will only prepare an attack, and await further input (releasing L-click) to dish out any DPS.

Again this is a minor problem - as I level up I'm finding that I use the L-Click attack less and less anyway, but still there are some fights, especially in PvP, that come down to the tiniest differences in performance, and when you're all out of stamina and magicka, that L-Click attack is all you have to lean on.

Anyway, some potential fixes to this:

The easiest option would be to allow modders to handle it. I've already requested in the mod forum some sort of slider or icon that indicates exactly what 'power level' the L-Click attack is at when activated (current in-game sounds and animations don't seem to be a reliable indicator). The reply to that request, however, is that such a mod would not be possible to make due to API limitations. So... revise the limitations.
Make bows function the same as other weapons. (tap L-Click for a a quick attack; hold L-Click to charge, fire, and recharge power attacks; release L-Click to stop)
My personal favorite option, but probably the one that would require the most work for the devs: Add an option to the gameplay settings to determine exactly what happens when L-Click is pressed, held, and released. This could apply to all weapons of course, not just bows. Something like a little drop-down menu that loos like:

Left Click Attack Behavior:
/b][color=#BDB39C].[/color]Tap for quick attack; hold to charge;[color=#BDB39C].......[/color][b
/b][color=#BDB39C].[/color]release for power attack.[color=#BDB39C].......................[/color][b
/b][color=#BDB39C]...........................................................[/color][b
/b][color=#BDB39C].[/color]Tap for quick attack; hold to charge,[color=#BDB39C].....k[/color][b
/b][color=#BDB39C].[/color]execute, and recharge power attacks;[color=#BDB39C]....[/color][b
/b][color=#BDB39C].[/color]release to stop.[color=#BDB39C]....................................[/color][b
/b][color=#BDB39C]...........................................................[/color][b
/b][color=#BDB39C].[/color]Tap to charge and execute a power[color=#BDB39C]........[/color][b
/b][color=#BDB39C].[/color]attack; hold to repeat; release to stop.[color=#BDB39C]....[/color][b
/b][color=#BDB39C]...........................................................[/color][b
/b][color=#BDB39C].[/color]<<anything else you guys would want[color=#BDB39C].....[/color][b
/b][color=#BDB39C].[/color]to see in this menu?>>[color=#BDB39C].........................[/color][b

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I think that's everything. I hope you all find this agreeable! ^_^
Please share your feedback!

Thanks!

- Hal

Samadhi · April 2014

Haltus_Kain wrote: »

...
In other words, with most weapons, holding L-Click will dish out the maximum DPS that L-click is capable of; but with a bow, holding L-Click will only prepare an attack, and await further input (releasing L-click) to dish out any DPS.

Again this is a minor problem - as I level up I'm finding that I use the L-Click attack less and less anyway, but still there are some fights, especially in PvP, that come down to the tiniest differences in performance, and when you're all out of stamina and magicka, that L-Click attack is all you have to lean on.

...

This isn't a problem at all, this is one of my favourite features of the bow.

I can be in stealth mode, ready an attack when I see an enemy player coming, and shoot them in the back for maximum damage on my sneak attack.

RoyalPain · April 2014

I agree with the camera suggestion its just a very odd angle...

Haltus_Kain · April 2014

Samadhi wrote: »

This isn't a problem at all, this is one of my favourite features of the bow.

I can be in stealth mode, ready an attack when I see an enemy player coming, and shoot them in the back for maximum damage on my sneak attack.

None of the proposed solutions would stop you from doing that; and only one of them (second proposal) would require you to exercise a bit more precision in timing than is currently needed for an opener.

In any case, this is why I think the drop menu route would be best - some folks like it better one way, others opt for a different flavor. Customization is the only option that will please everyone.

Samadhi · April 2014

Haltus_Kain wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

This isn't a problem at all, this is one of my favourite features of the bow.

I can be in stealth mode, ready an attack when I see an enemy player coming, and shoot them in the back for maximum damage on my sneak attack.

None of the proposed solutions would stop you from doing that; and only one of them (second proposal) would require you to exercise a bit more precision in timing than is currently needed for an opener.

In any case, this is why I think the drop menu route would be best - some folks like it better one way, others opt for a different flavor. Customization is the only option that will please everyone.

The third suggestion seems the only viable option.
They aren't likely to decrease API limitations after already making them more limited.
The second option means having to waste time charging during a small window of opening.

If they change it to an option that is fine. As long as I can keep using it in the more functional manner which it currently exists.

Haltus_Kain · April 2014

Heh, neither option is more or less functional in a general sense. Simply different styles, each with their strengths and weaknesses. You are fortunate that your preferred style is the one that is currently the only option. ^_^

This is an outstanding demonstration of the need for options to fine-tune our individual style of gameplay!

/salute

Samadhi · April 2014

I can comprehend how changing it to a continual shooting function might help in PvE; however, since the Beta weekends I cannot recall a PvP situation where I wanted to continually charge shots with a lack of control over the release of the arrow.

Options are great though.

Haltus_Kain · April 2014

Been dabbling around in Cyrodiil quite a bit, and after having more PvP experience since posting this thread, I gotta say that being able to fire off the bow as soon as it's fully drawn is still a much desired feature.

PvP is fast paced, and things like "one second" are a LOT of time in that setting. Wasting that precious second to make sure you're going to attack at full force can easily cost you the fight; especially when the person you're fighting doesn't have to worry about that because they're using a weapon that deals full dps just by holding L-click.

joshisanonymous · April 2014

I don't have much of an issue with the camera option, although I've gotten used to it after feeling it was unintuitive at first. Don't expect this to happen, either. I doubt it's easy to change something like a camera angle and have it balanced out against the angles you've been developing for for years. Your better off waiting for an FoV slider for 1st person mode.

For the bow, I'd really prefer it to not change, nor to even have the option to be changed by the player. Reason being that it would change the dynamic of the weapon and the type of skilled required to use it. You're basically pushed towards taking long prepared shots as openers then spamming quick shots while engaged, only using heavy shots again when you've managed to position yourself advantageously again. This is a fundamentally different playstyle and requires a different type of skill than what you get by using a staff, for instance. It's not the only thing that differentiates the weapons, but I think it's an important differentiation to maintain.

Also, /feedback is where you leave feedback.

Samadhi · April 2014

Haltus_Kain wrote: »

Been dabbling around in Cyrodiil quite a bit, and after having more PvP experience since posting this thread, I gotta say that being able to fire off the bow as soon as it's fully drawn is still a much desired feature.

PvP is fast paced, and things like "one second" are a LOT of time in that setting. Wasting that precious second to make sure you're going to attack at full force can easily cost you the fight; especially when the person you're fighting doesn't have to worry about that because they're using a weapon that deals full dps just by holding L-click.

Changing this completely would provide too much detriment and would probably kill using the bow for me.
Being able to charge a shot, hold it until I am ready to fire, and then release the shot at the appropriate target is far preferable.
Complete change, no thank you. Adjustable option would be fine.

I still have not yet found a single situation where I would want to continually fire charged shots. If I had the risk of my arrows misfiring because I could not hold my shot until I was ready to tag the appropriate target, it would be utterly crippling.

Haltus_Kain · April 2014

Probably comes down to playstyle, but what I tend to do is open with the L-click attack, then use abilities until I'm out of stamina and magicka... then... barrage them with L-Click until I have enough magicka/stamina to use an ability again, then back to the barrage.

The 'barrage' is usually around three fully charged L-click attacks. Or at least it should be; often it's only two fully charged attacks and one quick attack, because of the wasted time spent just holding down L-click. Might get to that point twice in one fight - I don't think I've had to rely on the L-click barrage more than twice in a 1v1 fight - longer than that and one of us has died already.

In zerg fights, those can go on for minutes, so understandably, the rotation is cycled many more times, but in the scheme of things, L-click performance probably doesn't equate to much in those fights, dwarfed by things like siege placement/use and other more strategic actions.

This suggestion is more regarding 1v1, or small group skirmishes (I personally tend to avoid the zerg, friendly or otherwise). In those fights, siege generally isn't used, and the outcome is dictated more by which player/group uses their abilities most effectively... i.e., not doing things like getting their weapon ready to attack, and then just standing there like an idiot and not dishing out any damage... even if the 'standing there' is only for a half - quarter even - of a second, that makes a difference in those smaller, faster fights.

What is your play style? What do your rotations look like? You keep saying you can't think of a situation where removing the delay in fire would be useful, but I'm guessing that's because you don't use L-Click nearly as much as I do... that's just a guess though, so please elaborate.

danteafk · April 2014

The camera view angle if you siege and use a weapon is pathetic

Samadhi · April 2014

Haltus_Kain wrote: »

...

What is your play style? What do your rotations look like? You keep saying you can't think of a situation where removing the delay in fire would be useful, but I'm guessing that's because you don't use L-Click nearly as much as I do... that's just a guess though, so please elaborate.

You empty out your resources, then fully charge your shots over and over and allow yourself to fight at a walking pace. Are you on a heavy armour/tank build?

I prefer stealth openers, mobility and solid kills. I use CC to lock an enemy out of range and stick to kiting. I use left-click more frequently than skills, but also pepper with DoTs and status effects. I normally kill my targets before I run out of magicka or stamina (in 1v1 -- in groups I stay alive so long I repeatedly have to cycle back into the crowd for regens).

Haltus_Kain · April 2014

Not tanky, but not glass canon either. A fair amount of my resources are spent on kiting/CC abilities, which yes, allows me to move at waking speed while I slam out the l-clicks most of the time (so many people have gap closer abilities that mobility is almost moot... Get em outside of melee range, CC, pepper. Whether you're just outside melee range or a full 30 yards away, they just charge or pull you, so creating that distance is kinda pointless).

The above rotation is a simplification ofc, PvP is situational, but the point is cranking out multiple l-clicks in a row is in the deck, and if you're using a bow, you've got a handicap that people who aren't using bow don't.