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Are Orcs a beast race?
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PrayingSeraph✭✭✭✭✭PrayingSeraph wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread
However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial
And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.
Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.
Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.
Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.
You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.
That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.
Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.
Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.
Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.
Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims
Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.
Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?
See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"
Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.
Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.
Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.
The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.
'' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
This is the definition that our author gives.
The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.
If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.
"For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"
The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.
Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.
Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.
Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.
Jesus christ you really cant take a L can you? You make a claim that is proven false and you come back with "It was translated, thats why it was not what I said it was".
No one knows what was said in the original text because its a translation. This is the only available text we have regarding the poem. You cant possibly extract that the original word was Orsimer from anything in the poem. You want to talk about blind speculation. There you have it bud. You cant separate your own personal beliefs for what is right in front of you.
Reread the bloody book, please. It takes a bit of common sense to read what is written there without coming to the absurd notion that you came to.
Ive read the poem plenty of times. You claimed the book literally says Orsimer. And when someone points out that you have made a incorrect statement about the poem. You start claiming they have blindly quoted it. Youre not right, youre wrong and continuing to double down by attacking everyone else is not going to change that.
By the way, the Father of the Niben is a racist load of nonsense. The entire poem is meant to convey to the Aldmeri of the Summerset Isles that they are superior to not just the Khajiit and Orsimer, but the Aylieds aswell and that mainland Tamriel is a savage, barbaric wasteland that any Aldmeri should feel lucky to come away from alive. The Khajiit are described as demons that relentlessly attempt to attack the Aldmeri from the shoreline. The Orsimer are the stereotypical blood thirsty barbarian horde and the Aylieds are so far removed from their Elven ancestry that they can only mimic their ancestors culture and language but are incapable of understanding it. And the cherry on top? That when all is said and done the Bird-Men willingly bestow upon Topal and in extension the Aldmeri the most important structure on all of Tamriel and Nirn, the White Gold Tower.
I know it can be difficult to step back from the lore and look at it from a position of objectivity. But the Father of the Niben is really a terrible bit of misinformation that would never ever back up the notion of the Orcs being related in any fashion to the rest of the Elves. It would completely undermine the message of the poem.
''Perhaps these were a cursed folk -- "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" - of a different kind, whose name was to be given the orcs in a different era. ''
The author specifically points out the word ''Orsimer'' because it's in the Aldmeris language. Note at the start of the book:
''The translation of the Aldmeri Udhendra Nibenu, "Father of the Niben," is my own, and I accept that other scholars may disagree with some of my choice of words. I cannot promise my translation lives up to the beauty of the original: I have only strived for simple coherence.''
In other words, the author used the word Orsimer - which is the word used in Aldmeris - and translated it to Orc, which is what it means in Tamrielic.
Ayleids weren't even a thing when Topal sailed around Tamriel, I think you haven't got a clue when Topal sailed around Tamriel, but I'll give you a hint; it's before the times of Elven domination on the continent.
The author connects the Orsimer to the word Orc. But he himself does not use Orsimer in his translation. He uses Orc. Which is quite telling. You originally made the claim that Topal said Orsimer but this is not true. The translator goes on to surmise what Topal meant here. Attempting to connect the idea of Orcs with Orsimer. Its not as if Orsimer is not a word used within "Tamrielic". Words are capable of crossing barriers between languages after all.
It is possible that the tradition is wrong. Perhaps the Orcs were an aboriginal tribe predating the Aldmeri colonization. Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc"—of a different kind, whose name was to be given the Orcs in a different era. It is regrettable that the fragment ends here, for more clues to the truth are undoubtedly lost.
The author here is admitting that there is not enough information in the epic to completely connect the Orsimer and the Orcs. Youre mixing your knowledge of the lore with the authors understanding of their in-universe history and confidence in his translation. He admits straight away that he did not have a whole lot of resources to translate this epic from. He had 1 source and that was it. Thats why there is a whole lot of speculation on the part of the author after every fragment.
You have no proof that Aylieds did not exist during the time period Topal supposedly sailed up the Niben. None at all. Father of the Niben is the only source to ever claim of some mysterious Bird Men living in the very location that we now know Aylieds center of civilization existed. Aylieds much like the Aldmeri were obsessed with birds and the ideas of ascension that came from that imagery. The fragment that addresses these Bird Men is quite telling also.
Brilliant flightful creatures of glorious colors
Greeted them in Aldmeri language,
Making the mer wonder, until they
Understood they were only calling back
The word they were speaking without
Understanding it, and then the sailors
Laughed.
Topal the Pilot was enchanted with the islands
And the feathered men who lived there.
There the Niben stayed for a moon, and the bird
Men learned how to speak their own words,
And with taloned feet, to write.
In joy for their new knowledge, they made Topal
Their lord, giving him their islands for the
Gift.
The creatures of glorious colors greeted the explorers in Aldmeris. Not the other way around. The next few lines are meant to be a dig at the Aylied civilization, accusing them of not being true Aldmeri. Topal then goes on to spend time there teaching the Bird Men their own language.
Its not a coincidence that all of the races addressed in this epic hail from civilizations that worship daedra or other alien gods.
Yes, he uses the word orc in the translation because the word Orsimer in Aldmeris translates to Orc in Tamrielic. The author says it is odd that Topal used the word ''Orsimer'' because the Orcish creation myth states they were created after Topal already sailed around Tamriel - hence why the author also asks if maybe the creation myth is wrong.
The Ayleids are one of the Aldmeri who came to Tamriel. Topal was the one who discovered Tamriel. In other words, every other elven race came to Tamriel after him. The Ayleids came to Tamriel after explorers, with Topal being specifically mentioned, made accounts of the land:
''Expeditions, such as those taken by Topal the Pilot and others, had painted an image in their minds of a great land where even workers, at the lowest end of the Summerset hierarchy could live as kings. The Prophet Veloth was among those who led a group of discontented Aldmer away from Summerset to a new promised land.
According to the traditions of Summerset, the Aldmer who went to be free on the mainland became all the disparate elven folk of history: Chimer, Bosmer, Ayleid. The ones who stayed behind became the Altmer. Even the earliest records of Summerset, however, shed no light on the origins of the Dwemer, who already occupied the northeast of Tamriel when Veloth and his people arrived there.''
~Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition: Summerset Isles
The beastfolk of Cyrodiil, which are almost without doubt the ''birdpeople'', have likewise also been mentioned, and were enslaved by the Ayleids:
''Torval sailed all the way from Topal Bay up the Niben Valley. He purchased the Eight Islands...the site of White Gold Tower and the Imperial City...from the beastfolk natives for the secret of literacy. Pretty soon, the beastfolk all knew how to read and write...which was handy, since it made them better slaves for the Ayleids, hahaha."
-Decentius Opsius
So nice try, but no.
You are taking this epic literally when it is not actually literal. None of the things stated in the epic actually happens because the point of the epic is not to recount actual events. Its racist propaganda meant to establish the superiority of the Aldmeri.
The Tamrielic translation of Orismer is Pariah Folk or Cursed Folk. The author even addresses this below his translation. He addresses the actual translation while suggesting that Topal meant Orsimer when he said whatever word he used for Orc. Otherwise why is the author unsure of what Topal meant? There would be no need to suggest any possibilities.
Your source is a coast guard. Not a historian or any actual expert on the time period/subject matter. A guy that has absolutely nothing to back up his comment. I bet you believe every Skyrim guard were adventurers before taking arrows to the knee too. You seem to struggle with the idea of the unreliable narrator.
I can tell you're not in any way familiar with TESlore, so I'll leave it here. You did give me a few good laughs though, alongside UESP and TESwiki editors.
You do realize UESP supports the idea that Orsimer are "elven", right?
Not really, UESP suScythe_Mercer wrote: »Scythe_Mercer wrote: »Scythe_Mercer wrote: »Scythe_Mercer wrote: »Scythe_Mercer wrote: »
LMAO seriously dude, FLAT EARTH?!?Being the majority doesn't mean you're right. Remember that flat-earthers were the majority of the earth's population once upon a time too, would you argue that because of that, believing in flat-earth is truth, and that thus the majority of the people believing that are clearly intelligent?
the relevant thing there is that further research and evidence proved many times in many ways that the earth is round.
& nowadays if you believe in a Discworld you are either a disciple of T Pratchett, or globally mocked.
GLOBE-ally *hee* ...see what I did there?
also.... Ankh-Morpork forever!
I think the majority of lore enthusiasts since Oblivion, have enjoyed the expanding lore for the Orsimer, and its pretty obvious they are Elves... they can procreate with nords and bosmer anyway! boom-shakka-lakka!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOPPL65zUQ
& Out of morbid curiosity, what's your lore 'world view' IF they were a lost tribe/stronghold of "modern" Orcs that Topal teaches his language?
The current accepted lore is that everyone is descended from the Old Aldmer, down through the Ayelids, to the tribes we have today, but it also mentions in Topal that he encounters a now lost tribe of bird-people, who could be pre-Bosmer cousins before they can only be Elves or a whole seperate thing...
MY big curiosity is for the rest of the Betmer, do the Tang-Mo have a separate or shared history with the Limlothiit and Khajiit?
& Are the Tsascei and Lamia lost tribes of the Hist?
Argonians can also procreate with the races of Elf, what's your argument again?
I'd love to delve deeper into that topic, could you elaborate further?
Unless you’re in Shivering Isles my man that can’t happen period, if you mean reproduction that is if not imma zip it for now. : x
Prove it.
To quote savants from TES III:
''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another. Offspring of inter-racial matings have the racial appearance of the mother, but may occasionally share inherited characteristics and abilities of the father. Sloads, dragons, and other sentient races cannot mate with Men, Elves, or Beastmen, and are not considered 'human.' Exceptional accounts of matings between men and daedra do not fit smoothly into this scheme."''
We going about this again Bruccy? ‘Imperial Scholars’ are heavily biased not to mention trusting only scholars, NPCs and the like is quite a long shot and very unreliable. Adding to that, solely quoting the ‘Savants’ from TES III and depending on their ‘beliefs’ cause the key word in that quotation is ‘believes’ as in its what they think it doesn’t make it fact. Argonians have a completely different biology then the other Races. Meaning reproduction is either not documented or impossible due to their biology. Khajiit are heavily debated but for now reproduction with both Beastfolk races and Men and Mer are only theories by ‘scholars.’
And Khajiits also have completely different biology in between themselves, using your argument, and Ohmes and a Senche wouldn't be able to reproduce. I say to you: prove it. There is evidence of an Argonian giving birth after mating with a non-Argonian, after all.
Ohmes, Senche, etc are *sub-species* of the *same race.* Argonians are completely different from Nirn entirely. I say to you, prove your source. Let's see you pull up Morrowind lore that has for the most part been retconned. The game was made in 2001, its 2019 pretty sure Bethesda's early works are being fixed dude.
Edit: If you pull up Fall of Vitharn, that source is the most unreliable book entirely for it was written in the *Shivering Isles* a *Plane of Oblivion belonging to Sheogorath* whatever happens in that realm is Sheo's law and will. On Nirn it is impossible for Argonians to reproduce with non-Argonians but in a Plane of Oblivion it is possible if the Prince wills it. You've been informed of this before I am certain.
It is just the same as saying the USEP wiki page about Lamia is true cause some villagers said/claimed that Lamias had offspring with a man. Quotes from *commonfolk.*
Why don't you prove it wrong? Not only do we have evidence of beastfolk mating with a race of Man (Vitharn, which you dismiss because it goes against your rant), but it's also supported by Imperial scholars.
All you've done is say ''It's impossible!'' without providing evidence to show it.
Rant? It’s a debate, I’m just saying my side in the matter. You have not provided proof either that is in the plane of Nirn since case of Argonian and non-Argonian reproduction in the Shivering Isles is the most unreliable source and quite outlandish to depend on that book. I’ve said it before but it seems you have trouble understanding, Imperial scholars are not the smartest people in the world. They are quite biased and the Savants you love to bring up are not reliable either for the only time they were mentioned was in TES III which I might add is not the only lore in TES around. Solely relying on such ‘claims’ by Imperial scholars about a race they know nothing about is the same as believing a farmer who claims they’ve seen a Giant and Ogre mate and have offspring. Play the Murkmire DLC from ESO or read up on it and perhaps you’ll be more well informed such as the Ayleid biologist that questions how the Argonians are even ‘alive’ the source may be Ayleid but that race has far more credibility then Imperial scholars again due to their limited understanding of other races and their biased opinions of their own race and views. As for the Khajiit topic here is a subreddit from Leamon Tuttle himself the current Loremaster https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/welcome_to_the_elsweyr_update_22_aua/epwr3ip/ here he is stating that different Khajiit sub-species are compatible for relationships and reproduction, only obstacles are physical builds.
See, classic old rant. ''Your sources, which I can't prove to be wrong, must be wrong because they contradict what I say!''
Ironic that you also mention that ''Imperial scholars are unreliable'', yet blindly take the words of the Ayleids - who are famous for their direct racism and immoral practices - as pure fact.
I also find it ironic how you like to say ''See, they can mate with one another!'', yet deny the possibility of this being the case with other races... Without evidence to prove as such.
I love how you claim I am ranting when I am not upset at all I'm just explaining things here I also love how you did not read half of what I said and nit picked. But I expected this from you Bruccius. I did prove them wrong you're just heavily biased towards Imperials and Morrowind lore. I did not 'blindly' take the words of the Ayleids its actually proven they're more intelligent then Imperials if you've played the Murkmire DLC or even looked at what they accomplished. *And* I must point it that I did not 'deny' the possibility of Khajiit interbreeding with other races I said it was 'debatable' and the proof that they 'possibly' could is not anywhere the only evidence we have of Khajiit reproduction is in the subreddit I linked and the information we have on the USEP and the like.
Mate, you claim Imperial scholars are biased just because they're Imperials and claim lore added in TES III is false just because it was written in TES III, while TES III formed the core for TES as we know it.
It's pointless to debate with someone who suffers from such bias.
Yes really, I can go quote UESP if you'd like
And mate, critisizing others for bias!? Are you trolling at this point? You, of all people, calling other people biased?
Wow that is complete....ughh
3 -
Number_51✭✭✭✭✭Didn't the Stibbons quest in Murkmire disprove Argonians being able to mate with other species (or at least men)?Unless you consider the Stibbons-egg an offspring I guess...
Ux-Deelith Mezatil: "The ux starts now. Breathe deep the arousing fumes. Take it all in. Let your aligned essences guide you. When you feel totally filled, relax your cloaca and let it all out …."
Stibbons: "Ah … I don't think I have a cloaca …."
Ux-Deelith Mezatil: "Don't have a—oh no! You must exit the lodge right now, dryskin!"
<Stibbons stumbles out.>
Stibbons: "That was … most peculiar …."
<Stibbons suddenly turns into an Argonian egg. Lady Laurent walks up to the egg.>
Lady Clarisse Laurent: "Stibbons! Oh, not again."0 -
Scythe_Mercer✭✭✭Didn't the Stibbons quest in Murkmire disprove Argonians being able to mate with other species (or at least men)?Unless you consider the Stibbons-egg an offspring I guess...
Ux-Deelith Mezatil: "The ux starts now. Breathe deep the arousing fumes. Take it all in. Let your aligned essences guide you. When you feel totally filled, relax your cloaca and let it all out …."
Stibbons: "Ah … I don't think I have a cloaca …."
Ux-Deelith Mezatil: "Don't have a—oh no! You must exit the lodge right now, dryskin!"
<Stibbons stumbles out.>
Stibbons: "That was … most peculiar …."
<Stibbons suddenly turns into an Argonian egg. Lady Laurent walks up to the egg.>
Lady Clarisse Laurent: "Stibbons! Oh, not again."
I believe he was asked to leave due to the dangers the ritual would have on a non-Argonian but was too late so the strange fumes and shaman magic did *that* to him.
EDIT: I do believe that this quest further disproves Argonians being able to mate with different species. They're just too alien of a species.Edited by Scythe_Mercer on 24 June 2019 20:161 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭Ladies & Gentlemen/Mer no need to fight or argue, we can come to a conclusion the old fashioned way. *Koronach pats the bed next to him*2 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread
However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial
And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.
Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.
Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.
Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.
You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.
That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.
Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.
Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.
Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.
Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims
Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.
Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?
See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"
Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.
Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.
Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.
The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.
'' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
This is the definition that our author gives.
The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.
If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.
"For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"
The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.
Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.
Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.
Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.
Jesus christ you really cant take a L can you? You make a claim that is proven false and you come back with "It was translated, thats why it was not what I said it was".
No one knows what was said in the original text because its a translation. This is the only available text we have regarding the poem. You cant possibly extract that the original word was Orsimer from anything in the poem. You want to talk about blind speculation. There you have it bud. You cant separate your own personal beliefs for what is right in front of you.
Reread the bloody book, please. It takes a bit of common sense to read what is written there without coming to the absurd notion that you came to.
Ive read the poem plenty of times. You claimed the book literally says Orsimer. And when someone points out that you have made a incorrect statement about the poem. You start claiming they have blindly quoted it. Youre not right, youre wrong and continuing to double down by attacking everyone else is not going to change that.
By the way, the Father of the Niben is a racist load of nonsense. The entire poem is meant to convey to the Aldmeri of the Summerset Isles that they are superior to not just the Khajiit and Orsimer, but the Aylieds aswell and that mainland Tamriel is a savage, barbaric wasteland that any Aldmeri should feel lucky to come away from alive. The Khajiit are described as demons that relentlessly attempt to attack the Aldmeri from the shoreline. The Orsimer are the stereotypical blood thirsty barbarian horde and the Aylieds are so far removed from their Elven ancestry that they can only mimic their ancestors culture and language but are incapable of understanding it. And the cherry on top? That when all is said and done the Bird-Men willingly bestow upon Topal and in extension the Aldmeri the most important structure on all of Tamriel and Nirn, the White Gold Tower.
I know it can be difficult to step back from the lore and look at it from a position of objectivity. But the Father of the Niben is really a terrible bit of misinformation that would never ever back up the notion of the Orcs being related in any fashion to the rest of the Elves. It would completely undermine the message of the poem.
''Perhaps these were a cursed folk -- "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" - of a different kind, whose name was to be given the orcs in a different era. ''
The author specifically points out the word ''Orsimer'' because it's in the Aldmeris language. Note at the start of the book:
''The translation of the Aldmeri Udhendra Nibenu, "Father of the Niben," is my own, and I accept that other scholars may disagree with some of my choice of words. I cannot promise my translation lives up to the beauty of the original: I have only strived for simple coherence.''
In other words, the author used the word Orsimer - which is the word used in Aldmeris - and translated it to Orc, which is what it means in Tamrielic.
Ayleids weren't even a thing when Topal sailed around Tamriel, I think you haven't got a clue when Topal sailed around Tamriel, but I'll give you a hint; it's before the times of Elven domination on the continent.
The author connects the Orsimer to the word Orc. But he himself does not use Orsimer in his translation. He uses Orc. Which is quite telling. You originally made the claim that Topal said Orsimer but this is not true. The translator goes on to surmise what Topal meant here. Attempting to connect the idea of Orcs with Orsimer. Its not as if Orsimer is not a word used within "Tamrielic". Words are capable of crossing barriers between languages after all.
It is possible that the tradition is wrong. Perhaps the Orcs were an aboriginal tribe predating the Aldmeri colonization. Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc"—of a different kind, whose name was to be given the Orcs in a different era. It is regrettable that the fragment ends here, for more clues to the truth are undoubtedly lost.
The author here is admitting that there is not enough information in the epic to completely connect the Orsimer and the Orcs. Youre mixing your knowledge of the lore with the authors understanding of their in-universe history and confidence in his translation. He admits straight away that he did not have a whole lot of resources to translate this epic from. He had 1 source and that was it. Thats why there is a whole lot of speculation on the part of the author after every fragment.
You have no proof that Aylieds did not exist during the time period Topal supposedly sailed up the Niben. None at all. Father of the Niben is the only source to ever claim of some mysterious Bird Men living in the very location that we now know Aylieds center of civilization existed. Aylieds much like the Aldmeri were obsessed with birds and the ideas of ascension that came from that imagery. The fragment that addresses these Bird Men is quite telling also.
Brilliant flightful creatures of glorious colors
Greeted them in Aldmeri language,
Making the mer wonder, until they
Understood they were only calling back
The word they were speaking without
Understanding it, and then the sailors
Laughed.
Topal the Pilot was enchanted with the islands
And the feathered men who lived there.
There the Niben stayed for a moon, and the bird
Men learned how to speak their own words,
And with taloned feet, to write.
In joy for their new knowledge, they made Topal
Their lord, giving him their islands for the
Gift.
The creatures of glorious colors greeted the explorers in Aldmeris. Not the other way around. The next few lines are meant to be a dig at the Aylied civilization, accusing them of not being true Aldmeri. Topal then goes on to spend time there teaching the Bird Men their own language.
Its not a coincidence that all of the races addressed in this epic hail from civilizations that worship daedra or other alien gods.
Yes, he uses the word orc in the translation because the word Orsimer in Aldmeris translates to Orc in Tamrielic. The author says it is odd that Topal used the word ''Orsimer'' because the Orcish creation myth states they were created after Topal already sailed around Tamriel - hence why the author also asks if maybe the creation myth is wrong.
The Ayleids are one of the Aldmeri who came to Tamriel. Topal was the one who discovered Tamriel. In other words, every other elven race came to Tamriel after him. The Ayleids came to Tamriel after explorers, with Topal being specifically mentioned, made accounts of the land:
''Expeditions, such as those taken by Topal the Pilot and others, had painted an image in their minds of a great land where even workers, at the lowest end of the Summerset hierarchy could live as kings. The Prophet Veloth was among those who led a group of discontented Aldmer away from Summerset to a new promised land.
According to the traditions of Summerset, the Aldmer who went to be free on the mainland became all the disparate elven folk of history: Chimer, Bosmer, Ayleid. The ones who stayed behind became the Altmer. Even the earliest records of Summerset, however, shed no light on the origins of the Dwemer, who already occupied the northeast of Tamriel when Veloth and his people arrived there.''
~Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition: Summerset Isles
The beastfolk of Cyrodiil, which are almost without doubt the ''birdpeople'', have likewise also been mentioned, and were enslaved by the Ayleids:
''Torval sailed all the way from Topal Bay up the Niben Valley. He purchased the Eight Islands...the site of White Gold Tower and the Imperial City...from the beastfolk natives for the secret of literacy. Pretty soon, the beastfolk all knew how to read and write...which was handy, since it made them better slaves for the Ayleids, hahaha."
-Decentius Opsius
So nice try, but no.
You are taking this epic literally when it is not actually literal. None of the things stated in the epic actually happens because the point of the epic is not to recount actual events. Its racist propaganda meant to establish the superiority of the Aldmeri.
The Tamrielic translation of Orismer is Pariah Folk or Cursed Folk. The author even addresses this below his translation. He addresses the actual translation while suggesting that Topal meant Orsimer when he said whatever word he used for Orc. Otherwise why is the author unsure of what Topal meant? There would be no need to suggest any possibilities.
Your source is a coast guard. Not a historian or any actual expert on the time period/subject matter. A guy that has absolutely nothing to back up his comment. I bet you believe every Skyrim guard were adventurers before taking arrows to the knee too. You seem to struggle with the idea of the unreliable narrator.
I can tell you're not in any way familiar with TESlore, so I'll leave it here. You did give me a few good laughs though, alongside UESP and TESwiki editors.
You are hilariously mistaken if you think insinuating that Im not drinking the kool-aid over at the echo chamber that is TESLore is an insult. TESLore would also rip your opinions to shreds since there is plenty of people over there with the same opinion as me in regards to Topal and his "epic". And unlike here, they would ban you for your excessively hostile behavior towards others with differing opinions. Thats probably why youre here trying to play up the lore expert that you obviously arent.
You lost this argument a long time ago with your in ability to actually stay on topic and address the points people were making. Instead you resorted to insults when people pointed out your mistakes and incorrect information. You can laugh about that all you want, but the rest of the people participating in this topic are all quietly shaking their heads at your strange behavior.
Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax4 -
Bruccius✭✭✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread
However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial
And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.
Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.
Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.
Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.
You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.
That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.
Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.
Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.
Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.
Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims
Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.
Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?
See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"
Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.
Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.
Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.
The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.
'' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
This is the definition that our author gives.
The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.
If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.
"For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"
The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.
Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.
Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.
Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.
Jesus christ you really cant take a L can you? You make a claim that is proven false and you come back with "It was translated, thats why it was not what I said it was".
No one knows what was said in the original text because its a translation. This is the only available text we have regarding the poem. You cant possibly extract that the original word was Orsimer from anything in the poem. You want to talk about blind speculation. There you have it bud. You cant separate your own personal beliefs for what is right in front of you.
Reread the bloody book, please. It takes a bit of common sense to read what is written there without coming to the absurd notion that you came to.
Ive read the poem plenty of times. You claimed the book literally says Orsimer. And when someone points out that you have made a incorrect statement about the poem. You start claiming they have blindly quoted it. Youre not right, youre wrong and continuing to double down by attacking everyone else is not going to change that.
By the way, the Father of the Niben is a racist load of nonsense. The entire poem is meant to convey to the Aldmeri of the Summerset Isles that they are superior to not just the Khajiit and Orsimer, but the Aylieds aswell and that mainland Tamriel is a savage, barbaric wasteland that any Aldmeri should feel lucky to come away from alive. The Khajiit are described as demons that relentlessly attempt to attack the Aldmeri from the shoreline. The Orsimer are the stereotypical blood thirsty barbarian horde and the Aylieds are so far removed from their Elven ancestry that they can only mimic their ancestors culture and language but are incapable of understanding it. And the cherry on top? That when all is said and done the Bird-Men willingly bestow upon Topal and in extension the Aldmeri the most important structure on all of Tamriel and Nirn, the White Gold Tower.
I know it can be difficult to step back from the lore and look at it from a position of objectivity. But the Father of the Niben is really a terrible bit of misinformation that would never ever back up the notion of the Orcs being related in any fashion to the rest of the Elves. It would completely undermine the message of the poem.
''Perhaps these were a cursed folk -- "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" - of a different kind, whose name was to be given the orcs in a different era. ''
The author specifically points out the word ''Orsimer'' because it's in the Aldmeris language. Note at the start of the book:
''The translation of the Aldmeri Udhendra Nibenu, "Father of the Niben," is my own, and I accept that other scholars may disagree with some of my choice of words. I cannot promise my translation lives up to the beauty of the original: I have only strived for simple coherence.''
In other words, the author used the word Orsimer - which is the word used in Aldmeris - and translated it to Orc, which is what it means in Tamrielic.
Ayleids weren't even a thing when Topal sailed around Tamriel, I think you haven't got a clue when Topal sailed around Tamriel, but I'll give you a hint; it's before the times of Elven domination on the continent.
The author connects the Orsimer to the word Orc. But he himself does not use Orsimer in his translation. He uses Orc. Which is quite telling. You originally made the claim that Topal said Orsimer but this is not true. The translator goes on to surmise what Topal meant here. Attempting to connect the idea of Orcs with Orsimer. Its not as if Orsimer is not a word used within "Tamrielic". Words are capable of crossing barriers between languages after all.
It is possible that the tradition is wrong. Perhaps the Orcs were an aboriginal tribe predating the Aldmeri colonization. Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc"—of a different kind, whose name was to be given the Orcs in a different era. It is regrettable that the fragment ends here, for more clues to the truth are undoubtedly lost.
The author here is admitting that there is not enough information in the epic to completely connect the Orsimer and the Orcs. Youre mixing your knowledge of the lore with the authors understanding of their in-universe history and confidence in his translation. He admits straight away that he did not have a whole lot of resources to translate this epic from. He had 1 source and that was it. Thats why there is a whole lot of speculation on the part of the author after every fragment.
You have no proof that Aylieds did not exist during the time period Topal supposedly sailed up the Niben. None at all. Father of the Niben is the only source to ever claim of some mysterious Bird Men living in the very location that we now know Aylieds center of civilization existed. Aylieds much like the Aldmeri were obsessed with birds and the ideas of ascension that came from that imagery. The fragment that addresses these Bird Men is quite telling also.
Brilliant flightful creatures of glorious colors
Greeted them in Aldmeri language,
Making the mer wonder, until they
Understood they were only calling back
The word they were speaking without
Understanding it, and then the sailors
Laughed.
Topal the Pilot was enchanted with the islands
And the feathered men who lived there.
There the Niben stayed for a moon, and the bird
Men learned how to speak their own words,
And with taloned feet, to write.
In joy for their new knowledge, they made Topal
Their lord, giving him their islands for the
Gift.
The creatures of glorious colors greeted the explorers in Aldmeris. Not the other way around. The next few lines are meant to be a dig at the Aylied civilization, accusing them of not being true Aldmeri. Topal then goes on to spend time there teaching the Bird Men their own language.
Its not a coincidence that all of the races addressed in this epic hail from civilizations that worship daedra or other alien gods.
Yes, he uses the word orc in the translation because the word Orsimer in Aldmeris translates to Orc in Tamrielic. The author says it is odd that Topal used the word ''Orsimer'' because the Orcish creation myth states they were created after Topal already sailed around Tamriel - hence why the author also asks if maybe the creation myth is wrong.
The Ayleids are one of the Aldmeri who came to Tamriel. Topal was the one who discovered Tamriel. In other words, every other elven race came to Tamriel after him. The Ayleids came to Tamriel after explorers, with Topal being specifically mentioned, made accounts of the land:
''Expeditions, such as those taken by Topal the Pilot and others, had painted an image in their minds of a great land where even workers, at the lowest end of the Summerset hierarchy could live as kings. The Prophet Veloth was among those who led a group of discontented Aldmer away from Summerset to a new promised land.
According to the traditions of Summerset, the Aldmer who went to be free on the mainland became all the disparate elven folk of history: Chimer, Bosmer, Ayleid. The ones who stayed behind became the Altmer. Even the earliest records of Summerset, however, shed no light on the origins of the Dwemer, who already occupied the northeast of Tamriel when Veloth and his people arrived there.''
~Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition: Summerset Isles
The beastfolk of Cyrodiil, which are almost without doubt the ''birdpeople'', have likewise also been mentioned, and were enslaved by the Ayleids:
''Torval sailed all the way from Topal Bay up the Niben Valley. He purchased the Eight Islands...the site of White Gold Tower and the Imperial City...from the beastfolk natives for the secret of literacy. Pretty soon, the beastfolk all knew how to read and write...which was handy, since it made them better slaves for the Ayleids, hahaha."
-Decentius Opsius
So nice try, but no.
You are taking this epic literally when it is not actually literal. None of the things stated in the epic actually happens because the point of the epic is not to recount actual events. Its racist propaganda meant to establish the superiority of the Aldmeri.
The Tamrielic translation of Orismer is Pariah Folk or Cursed Folk. The author even addresses this below his translation. He addresses the actual translation while suggesting that Topal meant Orsimer when he said whatever word he used for Orc. Otherwise why is the author unsure of what Topal meant? There would be no need to suggest any possibilities.
Your source is a coast guard. Not a historian or any actual expert on the time period/subject matter. A guy that has absolutely nothing to back up his comment. I bet you believe every Skyrim guard were adventurers before taking arrows to the knee too. You seem to struggle with the idea of the unreliable narrator.
I can tell you're not in any way familiar with TESlore, so I'll leave it here. You did give me a few good laughs though, alongside UESP and TESwiki editors.
You are hilariously mistaken if you think insinuating that Im not drinking the kool-aid over at the echo chamber that is TESLore is an insult. TESLore would also rip your opinions to shreds since there is plenty of people over there with the same opinion as me in regards to Topal and his "epic". And unlike here, they would ban you for your excessively hostile behavior towards others with differing opinions. Thats probably why youre here trying to play up the lore expert that you obviously arent.
You lost this argument a long time ago with your in ability to actually stay on topic and address the points people were making. Instead you resorted to insults when people pointed out your mistakes and incorrect information. You can laugh about that all you want, but the rest of the people participating in this topic are all quietly shaking their heads at your strange behavior.
I haven't heard a single counter argument, all I've heard is people yell ''Imperial scholars are inaccurate because I'm a racist who thinks Imperials must be wrong because they're Imperials'', or hear folks like yourself yell ''Topal is clearly a racist and his exploration of Tamriel is just a myth'', both claims with nothing to back them up. Also known as claims based on thin air.
So no, I didn't ''lose'' jack. It's people like yourself, who are so fully convinced of themselves, that they refuse to look at the other side, nor check the reliability of their own sources.0 -
Bruccius✭✭✭✭✭PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread
However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial
And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.
Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.
Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.
Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.
You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.
That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.
Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.
Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.
Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.
Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims
Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.
Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?
See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"
Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.
Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.
Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.
The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.
'' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
This is the definition that our author gives.
The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.
If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.
"For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"
The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.
Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.
Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.
Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.
Jesus christ you really cant take a L can you? You make a claim that is proven false and you come back with "It was translated, thats why it was not what I said it was".
No one knows what was said in the original text because its a translation. This is the only available text we have regarding the poem. You cant possibly extract that the original word was Orsimer from anything in the poem. You want to talk about blind speculation. There you have it bud. You cant separate your own personal beliefs for what is right in front of you.
Reread the bloody book, please. It takes a bit of common sense to read what is written there without coming to the absurd notion that you came to.
Ive read the poem plenty of times. You claimed the book literally says Orsimer. And when someone points out that you have made a incorrect statement about the poem. You start claiming they have blindly quoted it. Youre not right, youre wrong and continuing to double down by attacking everyone else is not going to change that.
By the way, the Father of the Niben is a racist load of nonsense. The entire poem is meant to convey to the Aldmeri of the Summerset Isles that they are superior to not just the Khajiit and Orsimer, but the Aylieds aswell and that mainland Tamriel is a savage, barbaric wasteland that any Aldmeri should feel lucky to come away from alive. The Khajiit are described as demons that relentlessly attempt to attack the Aldmeri from the shoreline. The Orsimer are the stereotypical blood thirsty barbarian horde and the Aylieds are so far removed from their Elven ancestry that they can only mimic their ancestors culture and language but are incapable of understanding it. And the cherry on top? That when all is said and done the Bird-Men willingly bestow upon Topal and in extension the Aldmeri the most important structure on all of Tamriel and Nirn, the White Gold Tower.
I know it can be difficult to step back from the lore and look at it from a position of objectivity. But the Father of the Niben is really a terrible bit of misinformation that would never ever back up the notion of the Orcs being related in any fashion to the rest of the Elves. It would completely undermine the message of the poem.
''Perhaps these were a cursed folk -- "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" - of a different kind, whose name was to be given the orcs in a different era. ''
The author specifically points out the word ''Orsimer'' because it's in the Aldmeris language. Note at the start of the book:
''The translation of the Aldmeri Udhendra Nibenu, "Father of the Niben," is my own, and I accept that other scholars may disagree with some of my choice of words. I cannot promise my translation lives up to the beauty of the original: I have only strived for simple coherence.''
In other words, the author used the word Orsimer - which is the word used in Aldmeris - and translated it to Orc, which is what it means in Tamrielic.
Ayleids weren't even a thing when Topal sailed around Tamriel, I think you haven't got a clue when Topal sailed around Tamriel, but I'll give you a hint; it's before the times of Elven domination on the continent.
The author connects the Orsimer to the word Orc. But he himself does not use Orsimer in his translation. He uses Orc. Which is quite telling. You originally made the claim that Topal said Orsimer but this is not true. The translator goes on to surmise what Topal meant here. Attempting to connect the idea of Orcs with Orsimer. Its not as if Orsimer is not a word used within "Tamrielic". Words are capable of crossing barriers between languages after all.
It is possible that the tradition is wrong. Perhaps the Orcs were an aboriginal tribe predating the Aldmeri colonization. Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc"—of a different kind, whose name was to be given the Orcs in a different era. It is regrettable that the fragment ends here, for more clues to the truth are undoubtedly lost.
The author here is admitting that there is not enough information in the epic to completely connect the Orsimer and the Orcs. Youre mixing your knowledge of the lore with the authors understanding of their in-universe history and confidence in his translation. He admits straight away that he did not have a whole lot of resources to translate this epic from. He had 1 source and that was it. Thats why there is a whole lot of speculation on the part of the author after every fragment.
You have no proof that Aylieds did not exist during the time period Topal supposedly sailed up the Niben. None at all. Father of the Niben is the only source to ever claim of some mysterious Bird Men living in the very location that we now know Aylieds center of civilization existed. Aylieds much like the Aldmeri were obsessed with birds and the ideas of ascension that came from that imagery. The fragment that addresses these Bird Men is quite telling also.
Brilliant flightful creatures of glorious colors
Greeted them in Aldmeri language,
Making the mer wonder, until they
Understood they were only calling back
The word they were speaking without
Understanding it, and then the sailors
Laughed.
Topal the Pilot was enchanted with the islands
And the feathered men who lived there.
There the Niben stayed for a moon, and the bird
Men learned how to speak their own words,
And with taloned feet, to write.
In joy for their new knowledge, they made Topal
Their lord, giving him their islands for the
Gift.
The creatures of glorious colors greeted the explorers in Aldmeris. Not the other way around. The next few lines are meant to be a dig at the Aylied civilization, accusing them of not being true Aldmeri. Topal then goes on to spend time there teaching the Bird Men their own language.
Its not a coincidence that all of the races addressed in this epic hail from civilizations that worship daedra or other alien gods.
Yes, he uses the word orc in the translation because the word Orsimer in Aldmeris translates to Orc in Tamrielic. The author says it is odd that Topal used the word ''Orsimer'' because the Orcish creation myth states they were created after Topal already sailed around Tamriel - hence why the author also asks if maybe the creation myth is wrong.
The Ayleids are one of the Aldmeri who came to Tamriel. Topal was the one who discovered Tamriel. In other words, every other elven race came to Tamriel after him. The Ayleids came to Tamriel after explorers, with Topal being specifically mentioned, made accounts of the land:
''Expeditions, such as those taken by Topal the Pilot and others, had painted an image in their minds of a great land where even workers, at the lowest end of the Summerset hierarchy could live as kings. The Prophet Veloth was among those who led a group of discontented Aldmer away from Summerset to a new promised land.
According to the traditions of Summerset, the Aldmer who went to be free on the mainland became all the disparate elven folk of history: Chimer, Bosmer, Ayleid. The ones who stayed behind became the Altmer. Even the earliest records of Summerset, however, shed no light on the origins of the Dwemer, who already occupied the northeast of Tamriel when Veloth and his people arrived there.''
~Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition: Summerset Isles
The beastfolk of Cyrodiil, which are almost without doubt the ''birdpeople'', have likewise also been mentioned, and were enslaved by the Ayleids:
''Torval sailed all the way from Topal Bay up the Niben Valley. He purchased the Eight Islands...the site of White Gold Tower and the Imperial City...from the beastfolk natives for the secret of literacy. Pretty soon, the beastfolk all knew how to read and write...which was handy, since it made them better slaves for the Ayleids, hahaha."
-Decentius Opsius
So nice try, but no.
You are taking this epic literally when it is not actually literal. None of the things stated in the epic actually happens because the point of the epic is not to recount actual events. Its racist propaganda meant to establish the superiority of the Aldmeri.
The Tamrielic translation of Orismer is Pariah Folk or Cursed Folk. The author even addresses this below his translation. He addresses the actual translation while suggesting that Topal meant Orsimer when he said whatever word he used for Orc. Otherwise why is the author unsure of what Topal meant? There would be no need to suggest any possibilities.
Your source is a coast guard. Not a historian or any actual expert on the time period/subject matter. A guy that has absolutely nothing to back up his comment. I bet you believe every Skyrim guard were adventurers before taking arrows to the knee too. You seem to struggle with the idea of the unreliable narrator.
I can tell you're not in any way familiar with TESlore, so I'll leave it here. You did give me a few good laughs though, alongside UESP and TESwiki editors.
You do realize UESP supports the idea that Orsimer are "elven", right?
Not really, UESP suScythe_Mercer wrote: »Scythe_Mercer wrote: »Scythe_Mercer wrote: »Scythe_Mercer wrote: »Scythe_Mercer wrote: »
LMAO seriously dude, FLAT EARTH?!?Being the majority doesn't mean you're right. Remember that flat-earthers were the majority of the earth's population once upon a time too, would you argue that because of that, believing in flat-earth is truth, and that thus the majority of the people believing that are clearly intelligent?
the relevant thing there is that further research and evidence proved many times in many ways that the earth is round.
& nowadays if you believe in a Discworld you are either a disciple of T Pratchett, or globally mocked.
GLOBE-ally *hee* ...see what I did there?
also.... Ankh-Morpork forever!
I think the majority of lore enthusiasts since Oblivion, have enjoyed the expanding lore for the Orsimer, and its pretty obvious they are Elves... they can procreate with nords and bosmer anyway! boom-shakka-lakka!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOPPL65zUQ
& Out of morbid curiosity, what's your lore 'world view' IF they were a lost tribe/stronghold of "modern" Orcs that Topal teaches his language?
The current accepted lore is that everyone is descended from the Old Aldmer, down through the Ayelids, to the tribes we have today, but it also mentions in Topal that he encounters a now lost tribe of bird-people, who could be pre-Bosmer cousins before they can only be Elves or a whole seperate thing...
MY big curiosity is for the rest of the Betmer, do the Tang-Mo have a separate or shared history with the Limlothiit and Khajiit?
& Are the Tsascei and Lamia lost tribes of the Hist?
Argonians can also procreate with the races of Elf, what's your argument again?
I'd love to delve deeper into that topic, could you elaborate further?
Unless you’re in Shivering Isles my man that can’t happen period, if you mean reproduction that is if not imma zip it for now. : x
Prove it.
To quote savants from TES III:
''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another. Offspring of inter-racial matings have the racial appearance of the mother, but may occasionally share inherited characteristics and abilities of the father. Sloads, dragons, and other sentient races cannot mate with Men, Elves, or Beastmen, and are not considered 'human.' Exceptional accounts of matings between men and daedra do not fit smoothly into this scheme."''
We going about this again Bruccy? ‘Imperial Scholars’ are heavily biased not to mention trusting only scholars, NPCs and the like is quite a long shot and very unreliable. Adding to that, solely quoting the ‘Savants’ from TES III and depending on their ‘beliefs’ cause the key word in that quotation is ‘believes’ as in its what they think it doesn’t make it fact. Argonians have a completely different biology then the other Races. Meaning reproduction is either not documented or impossible due to their biology. Khajiit are heavily debated but for now reproduction with both Beastfolk races and Men and Mer are only theories by ‘scholars.’
And Khajiits also have completely different biology in between themselves, using your argument, and Ohmes and a Senche wouldn't be able to reproduce. I say to you: prove it. There is evidence of an Argonian giving birth after mating with a non-Argonian, after all.
Ohmes, Senche, etc are *sub-species* of the *same race.* Argonians are completely different from Nirn entirely. I say to you, prove your source. Let's see you pull up Morrowind lore that has for the most part been retconned. The game was made in 2001, its 2019 pretty sure Bethesda's early works are being fixed dude.
Edit: If you pull up Fall of Vitharn, that source is the most unreliable book entirely for it was written in the *Shivering Isles* a *Plane of Oblivion belonging to Sheogorath* whatever happens in that realm is Sheo's law and will. On Nirn it is impossible for Argonians to reproduce with non-Argonians but in a Plane of Oblivion it is possible if the Prince wills it. You've been informed of this before I am certain.
It is just the same as saying the USEP wiki page about Lamia is true cause some villagers said/claimed that Lamias had offspring with a man. Quotes from *commonfolk.*
Why don't you prove it wrong? Not only do we have evidence of beastfolk mating with a race of Man (Vitharn, which you dismiss because it goes against your rant), but it's also supported by Imperial scholars.
All you've done is say ''It's impossible!'' without providing evidence to show it.
Rant? It’s a debate, I’m just saying my side in the matter. You have not provided proof either that is in the plane of Nirn since case of Argonian and non-Argonian reproduction in the Shivering Isles is the most unreliable source and quite outlandish to depend on that book. I’ve said it before but it seems you have trouble understanding, Imperial scholars are not the smartest people in the world. They are quite biased and the Savants you love to bring up are not reliable either for the only time they were mentioned was in TES III which I might add is not the only lore in TES around. Solely relying on such ‘claims’ by Imperial scholars about a race they know nothing about is the same as believing a farmer who claims they’ve seen a Giant and Ogre mate and have offspring. Play the Murkmire DLC from ESO or read up on it and perhaps you’ll be more well informed such as the Ayleid biologist that questions how the Argonians are even ‘alive’ the source may be Ayleid but that race has far more credibility then Imperial scholars again due to their limited understanding of other races and their biased opinions of their own race and views. As for the Khajiit topic here is a subreddit from Leamon Tuttle himself the current Loremaster https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/welcome_to_the_elsweyr_update_22_aua/epwr3ip/ here he is stating that different Khajiit sub-species are compatible for relationships and reproduction, only obstacles are physical builds.
See, classic old rant. ''Your sources, which I can't prove to be wrong, must be wrong because they contradict what I say!''
Ironic that you also mention that ''Imperial scholars are unreliable'', yet blindly take the words of the Ayleids - who are famous for their direct racism and immoral practices - as pure fact.
I also find it ironic how you like to say ''See, they can mate with one another!'', yet deny the possibility of this being the case with other races... Without evidence to prove as such.
I love how you claim I am ranting when I am not upset at all I'm just explaining things here I also love how you did not read half of what I said and nit picked. But I expected this from you Bruccius. I did prove them wrong you're just heavily biased towards Imperials and Morrowind lore. I did not 'blindly' take the words of the Ayleids its actually proven they're more intelligent then Imperials if you've played the Murkmire DLC or even looked at what they accomplished. *And* I must point it that I did not 'deny' the possibility of Khajiit interbreeding with other races I said it was 'debatable' and the proof that they 'possibly' could is not anywhere the only evidence we have of Khajiit reproduction is in the subreddit I linked and the information we have on the USEP and the like.
Mate, you claim Imperial scholars are biased just because they're Imperials and claim lore added in TES III is false just because it was written in TES III, while TES III formed the core for TES as we know it.
It's pointless to debate with someone who suffers from such bias.
Yes really, I can go quote UESP if you'd like
And mate, critisizing others for bias!? Are you trolling at this point? You, of all people, calling other people biased?
Wow that is complete....ughh
The accusation that I'm biased while I use far more reliable material is petty.0 -
Bruccius✭✭✭✭✭Scythe_Mercer wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread
However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial
And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.
Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.
Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.
Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.
You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.
That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.
Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.
Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.
Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.
Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims
Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.
Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?
See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"
Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.
Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.
Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.
The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.
'' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
This is the definition that our author gives.
The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.
If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.
"For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"
The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.
Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.
Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.
Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.
Jesus christ you really cant take a L can you? You make a claim that is proven false and you come back with "It was translated, thats why it was not what I said it was".
No one knows what was said in the original text because its a translation. This is the only available text we have regarding the poem. You cant possibly extract that the original word was Orsimer from anything in the poem. You want to talk about blind speculation. There you have it bud. You cant separate your own personal beliefs for what is right in front of you.
Reread the bloody book, please. It takes a bit of common sense to read what is written there without coming to the absurd notion that you came to.
Ive read the poem plenty of times. You claimed the book literally says Orsimer. And when someone points out that you have made a incorrect statement about the poem. You start claiming they have blindly quoted it. Youre not right, youre wrong and continuing to double down by attacking everyone else is not going to change that.
By the way, the Father of the Niben is a racist load of nonsense. The entire poem is meant to convey to the Aldmeri of the Summerset Isles that they are superior to not just the Khajiit and Orsimer, but the Aylieds aswell and that mainland Tamriel is a savage, barbaric wasteland that any Aldmeri should feel lucky to come away from alive. The Khajiit are described as demons that relentlessly attempt to attack the Aldmeri from the shoreline. The Orsimer are the stereotypical blood thirsty barbarian horde and the Aylieds are so far removed from their Elven ancestry that they can only mimic their ancestors culture and language but are incapable of understanding it. And the cherry on top? That when all is said and done the Bird-Men willingly bestow upon Topal and in extension the Aldmeri the most important structure on all of Tamriel and Nirn, the White Gold Tower.
I know it can be difficult to step back from the lore and look at it from a position of objectivity. But the Father of the Niben is really a terrible bit of misinformation that would never ever back up the notion of the Orcs being related in any fashion to the rest of the Elves. It would completely undermine the message of the poem.
''Perhaps these were a cursed folk -- "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" - of a different kind, whose name was to be given the orcs in a different era. ''
The author specifically points out the word ''Orsimer'' because it's in the Aldmeris language. Note at the start of the book:
''The translation of the Aldmeri Udhendra Nibenu, "Father of the Niben," is my own, and I accept that other scholars may disagree with some of my choice of words. I cannot promise my translation lives up to the beauty of the original: I have only strived for simple coherence.''
In other words, the author used the word Orsimer - which is the word used in Aldmeris - and translated it to Orc, which is what it means in Tamrielic.
Ayleids weren't even a thing when Topal sailed around Tamriel, I think you haven't got a clue when Topal sailed around Tamriel, but I'll give you a hint; it's before the times of Elven domination on the continent.
The author connects the Orsimer to the word Orc. But he himself does not use Orsimer in his translation. He uses Orc. Which is quite telling. You originally made the claim that Topal said Orsimer but this is not true. The translator goes on to surmise what Topal meant here. Attempting to connect the idea of Orcs with Orsimer. Its not as if Orsimer is not a word used within "Tamrielic". Words are capable of crossing barriers between languages after all.
It is possible that the tradition is wrong. Perhaps the Orcs were an aboriginal tribe predating the Aldmeri colonization. Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc"—of a different kind, whose name was to be given the Orcs in a different era. It is regrettable that the fragment ends here, for more clues to the truth are undoubtedly lost.
The author here is admitting that there is not enough information in the epic to completely connect the Orsimer and the Orcs. Youre mixing your knowledge of the lore with the authors understanding of their in-universe history and confidence in his translation. He admits straight away that he did not have a whole lot of resources to translate this epic from. He had 1 source and that was it. Thats why there is a whole lot of speculation on the part of the author after every fragment.
You have no proof that Aylieds did not exist during the time period Topal supposedly sailed up the Niben. None at all. Father of the Niben is the only source to ever claim of some mysterious Bird Men living in the very location that we now know Aylieds center of civilization existed. Aylieds much like the Aldmeri were obsessed with birds and the ideas of ascension that came from that imagery. The fragment that addresses these Bird Men is quite telling also.
Brilliant flightful creatures of glorious colors
Greeted them in Aldmeri language,
Making the mer wonder, until they
Understood they were only calling back
The word they were speaking without
Understanding it, and then the sailors
Laughed.
Topal the Pilot was enchanted with the islands
And the feathered men who lived there.
There the Niben stayed for a moon, and the bird
Men learned how to speak their own words,
And with taloned feet, to write.
In joy for their new knowledge, they made Topal
Their lord, giving him their islands for the
Gift.
The creatures of glorious colors greeted the explorers in Aldmeris. Not the other way around. The next few lines are meant to be a dig at the Aylied civilization, accusing them of not being true Aldmeri. Topal then goes on to spend time there teaching the Bird Men their own language.
Its not a coincidence that all of the races addressed in this epic hail from civilizations that worship daedra or other alien gods.
Yes, he uses the word orc in the translation because the word Orsimer in Aldmeris translates to Orc in Tamrielic. The author says it is odd that Topal used the word ''Orsimer'' because the Orcish creation myth states they were created after Topal already sailed around Tamriel - hence why the author also asks if maybe the creation myth is wrong.
The Ayleids are one of the Aldmeri who came to Tamriel. Topal was the one who discovered Tamriel. In other words, every other elven race came to Tamriel after him. The Ayleids came to Tamriel after explorers, with Topal being specifically mentioned, made accounts of the land:
''Expeditions, such as those taken by Topal the Pilot and others, had painted an image in their minds of a great land where even workers, at the lowest end of the Summerset hierarchy could live as kings. The Prophet Veloth was among those who led a group of discontented Aldmer away from Summerset to a new promised land.
According to the traditions of Summerset, the Aldmer who went to be free on the mainland became all the disparate elven folk of history: Chimer, Bosmer, Ayleid. The ones who stayed behind became the Altmer. Even the earliest records of Summerset, however, shed no light on the origins of the Dwemer, who already occupied the northeast of Tamriel when Veloth and his people arrived there.''
~Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition: Summerset Isles
The beastfolk of Cyrodiil, which are almost without doubt the ''birdpeople'', have likewise also been mentioned, and were enslaved by the Ayleids:
''Torval sailed all the way from Topal Bay up the Niben Valley. He purchased the Eight Islands...the site of White Gold Tower and the Imperial City...from the beastfolk natives for the secret of literacy. Pretty soon, the beastfolk all knew how to read and write...which was handy, since it made them better slaves for the Ayleids, hahaha."
-Decentius Opsius
So nice try, but no.
You are taking this epic literally when it is not actually literal. None of the things stated in the epic actually happens because the point of the epic is not to recount actual events. Its racist propaganda meant to establish the superiority of the Aldmeri.
The Tamrielic translation of Orismer is Pariah Folk or Cursed Folk. The author even addresses this below his translation. He addresses the actual translation while suggesting that Topal meant Orsimer when he said whatever word he used for Orc. Otherwise why is the author unsure of what Topal meant? There would be no need to suggest any possibilities.
Your source is a coast guard. Not a historian or any actual expert on the time period/subject matter. A guy that has absolutely nothing to back up his comment. I bet you believe every Skyrim guard were adventurers before taking arrows to the knee too. You seem to struggle with the idea of the unreliable narrator.
I can tell you're not in any way familiar with TESlore, so I'll leave it here. You did give me a few good laughs though, alongside UESP and TESwiki editors.
You do realize UESP supports the idea that Orsimer are "elven", right?
Not really, UESP suScythe_Mercer wrote: »Scythe_Mercer wrote: »Scythe_Mercer wrote: »Scythe_Mercer wrote: »Scythe_Mercer wrote: »
LMAO seriously dude, FLAT EARTH?!?Being the majority doesn't mean you're right. Remember that flat-earthers were the majority of the earth's population once upon a time too, would you argue that because of that, believing in flat-earth is truth, and that thus the majority of the people believing that are clearly intelligent?
the relevant thing there is that further research and evidence proved many times in many ways that the earth is round.
& nowadays if you believe in a Discworld you are either a disciple of T Pratchett, or globally mocked.
GLOBE-ally *hee* ...see what I did there?
also.... Ankh-Morpork forever!
I think the majority of lore enthusiasts since Oblivion, have enjoyed the expanding lore for the Orsimer, and its pretty obvious they are Elves... they can procreate with nords and bosmer anyway! boom-shakka-lakka!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOPPL65zUQ
& Out of morbid curiosity, what's your lore 'world view' IF they were a lost tribe/stronghold of "modern" Orcs that Topal teaches his language?
The current accepted lore is that everyone is descended from the Old Aldmer, down through the Ayelids, to the tribes we have today, but it also mentions in Topal that he encounters a now lost tribe of bird-people, who could be pre-Bosmer cousins before they can only be Elves or a whole seperate thing...
MY big curiosity is for the rest of the Betmer, do the Tang-Mo have a separate or shared history with the Limlothiit and Khajiit?
& Are the Tsascei and Lamia lost tribes of the Hist?
Argonians can also procreate with the races of Elf, what's your argument again?
I'd love to delve deeper into that topic, could you elaborate further?
Unless you’re in Shivering Isles my man that can’t happen period, if you mean reproduction that is if not imma zip it for now. : x
Prove it.
To quote savants from TES III:
''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another. Offspring of inter-racial matings have the racial appearance of the mother, but may occasionally share inherited characteristics and abilities of the father. Sloads, dragons, and other sentient races cannot mate with Men, Elves, or Beastmen, and are not considered 'human.' Exceptional accounts of matings between men and daedra do not fit smoothly into this scheme."''
We going about this again Bruccy? ‘Imperial Scholars’ are heavily biased not to mention trusting only scholars, NPCs and the like is quite a long shot and very unreliable. Adding to that, solely quoting the ‘Savants’ from TES III and depending on their ‘beliefs’ cause the key word in that quotation is ‘believes’ as in its what they think it doesn’t make it fact. Argonians have a completely different biology then the other Races. Meaning reproduction is either not documented or impossible due to their biology. Khajiit are heavily debated but for now reproduction with both Beastfolk races and Men and Mer are only theories by ‘scholars.’
And Khajiits also have completely different biology in between themselves, using your argument, and Ohmes and a Senche wouldn't be able to reproduce. I say to you: prove it. There is evidence of an Argonian giving birth after mating with a non-Argonian, after all.
Ohmes, Senche, etc are *sub-species* of the *same race.* Argonians are completely different from Nirn entirely. I say to you, prove your source. Let's see you pull up Morrowind lore that has for the most part been retconned. The game was made in 2001, its 2019 pretty sure Bethesda's early works are being fixed dude.
Edit: If you pull up Fall of Vitharn, that source is the most unreliable book entirely for it was written in the *Shivering Isles* a *Plane of Oblivion belonging to Sheogorath* whatever happens in that realm is Sheo's law and will. On Nirn it is impossible for Argonians to reproduce with non-Argonians but in a Plane of Oblivion it is possible if the Prince wills it. You've been informed of this before I am certain.
It is just the same as saying the USEP wiki page about Lamia is true cause some villagers said/claimed that Lamias had offspring with a man. Quotes from *commonfolk.*
Why don't you prove it wrong? Not only do we have evidence of beastfolk mating with a race of Man (Vitharn, which you dismiss because it goes against your rant), but it's also supported by Imperial scholars.
All you've done is say ''It's impossible!'' without providing evidence to show it.
Rant? It’s a debate, I’m just saying my side in the matter. You have not provided proof either that is in the plane of Nirn since case of Argonian and non-Argonian reproduction in the Shivering Isles is the most unreliable source and quite outlandish to depend on that book. I’ve said it before but it seems you have trouble understanding, Imperial scholars are not the smartest people in the world. They are quite biased and the Savants you love to bring up are not reliable either for the only time they were mentioned was in TES III which I might add is not the only lore in TES around. Solely relying on such ‘claims’ by Imperial scholars about a race they know nothing about is the same as believing a farmer who claims they’ve seen a Giant and Ogre mate and have offspring. Play the Murkmire DLC from ESO or read up on it and perhaps you’ll be more well informed such as the Ayleid biologist that questions how the Argonians are even ‘alive’ the source may be Ayleid but that race has far more credibility then Imperial scholars again due to their limited understanding of other races and their biased opinions of their own race and views. As for the Khajiit topic here is a subreddit from Leamon Tuttle himself the current Loremaster https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/welcome_to_the_elsweyr_update_22_aua/epwr3ip/ here he is stating that different Khajiit sub-species are compatible for relationships and reproduction, only obstacles are physical builds.
See, classic old rant. ''Your sources, which I can't prove to be wrong, must be wrong because they contradict what I say!''
Ironic that you also mention that ''Imperial scholars are unreliable'', yet blindly take the words of the Ayleids - who are famous for their direct racism and immoral practices - as pure fact.
I also find it ironic how you like to say ''See, they can mate with one another!'', yet deny the possibility of this being the case with other races... Without evidence to prove as such.
I love how you claim I am ranting when I am not upset at all I'm just explaining things here I also love how you did not read half of what I said and nit picked. But I expected this from you Bruccius. I did prove them wrong you're just heavily biased towards Imperials and Morrowind lore. I did not 'blindly' take the words of the Ayleids its actually proven they're more intelligent then Imperials if you've played the Murkmire DLC or even looked at what they accomplished. *And* I must point it that I did not 'deny' the possibility of Khajiit interbreeding with other races I said it was 'debatable' and the proof that they 'possibly' could is not anywhere the only evidence we have of Khajiit reproduction is in the subreddit I linked and the information we have on the USEP and the like.
Mate, you claim Imperial scholars are biased just because they're Imperials and claim lore added in TES III is false just because it was written in TES III, while TES III formed the core for TES as we know it.
It's pointless to debate with someone who suffers from such bias.
Glass houses Bruccius, you’re putting words into my mouth at this point. TES III sure built up a lot of metaphysical lore and cultural lore of the Dunmer other then that no it doesn’t add much, ESO has added more cultural lore of the different races then anything. It *is* a fact Imperials are biased and try to convert other people and provinces to their rule. Just because Imperial scholars say one thing doesn’t mean they’re correct. The key word in that Savant quote is ‘consider’ as in its what they believe. Is it because they believe it is it fact? Does the word of a peasant farmer who claims to have seen an offspring of an Giant and Ogre become fact just because they write it in a journal and it’s a note you can read in game? Lorebooks, quotes, citations written by NPCS cannot entirely be trusted it is simple fact in the ES universe. You claim I am biased yet you seem to cling onto Imperial scholars and Morrowind lore rather then find actual reliable sources not ones from a Plane of Oblivion or the Savants who have not been mentioned in any way beyond TES III. You can go ahead and rely on unreliable quotes, sources or retconned lore. Go ahead and ignore other games and common sense exist. Oh, and thanks for ignoring the other two that had an input towards ya and gunned right for me.
Someone clearly hasn't played Morrowind thorougly, lol. I really recommend you replay the game.
''Imperial scholars are biased because of (insert racist claim with nothing to prove it)''.
The key words in that Savant quote is ''on the basis'' that they can mate with one another. The Imperial scholars come to the conclusion that they did because of the fact that they know that inter-racial mating is a thing.
The only one ignoring common sense here is you, bud. But then again, you've clearly only played ESO seriously.0 -
Scythe_Mercer✭✭✭Scythe_Mercer wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread
However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial
And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.
Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.
Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.
Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.
You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.
That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.
Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.
Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.
Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.
Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims
Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.
Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?
See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"
Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.
Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.
Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.
The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.
'' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
This is the definition that our author gives.
The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.
If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.
"For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"
The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.
Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.
Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.
Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.
Jesus christ you really cant take a L can you? You make a claim that is proven false and you come back with "It was translated, thats why it was not what I said it was".
No one knows what was said in the original text because its a translation. This is the only available text we have regarding the poem. You cant possibly extract that the original word was Orsimer from anything in the poem. You want to talk about blind speculation. There you have it bud. You cant separate your own personal beliefs for what is right in front of you.
Reread the bloody book, please. It takes a bit of common sense to read what is written there without coming to the absurd notion that you came to.
Ive read the poem plenty of times. You claimed the book literally says Orsimer. And when someone points out that you have made a incorrect statement about the poem. You start claiming they have blindly quoted it. Youre not right, youre wrong and continuing to double down by attacking everyone else is not going to change that.
By the way, the Father of the Niben is a racist load of nonsense. The entire poem is meant to convey to the Aldmeri of the Summerset Isles that they are superior to not just the Khajiit and Orsimer, but the Aylieds aswell and that mainland Tamriel is a savage, barbaric wasteland that any Aldmeri should feel lucky to come away from alive. The Khajiit are described as demons that relentlessly attempt to attack the Aldmeri from the shoreline. The Orsimer are the stereotypical blood thirsty barbarian horde and the Aylieds are so far removed from their Elven ancestry that they can only mimic their ancestors culture and language but are incapable of understanding it. And the cherry on top? That when all is said and done the Bird-Men willingly bestow upon Topal and in extension the Aldmeri the most important structure on all of Tamriel and Nirn, the White Gold Tower.
I know it can be difficult to step back from the lore and look at it from a position of objectivity. But the Father of the Niben is really a terrible bit of misinformation that would never ever back up the notion of the Orcs being related in any fashion to the rest of the Elves. It would completely undermine the message of the poem.
''Perhaps these were a cursed folk -- "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" - of a different kind, whose name was to be given the orcs in a different era. ''
The author specifically points out the word ''Orsimer'' because it's in the Aldmeris language. Note at the start of the book:
''The translation of the Aldmeri Udhendra Nibenu, "Father of the Niben," is my own, and I accept that other scholars may disagree with some of my choice of words. I cannot promise my translation lives up to the beauty of the original: I have only strived for simple coherence.''
In other words, the author used the word Orsimer - which is the word used in Aldmeris - and translated it to Orc, which is what it means in Tamrielic.
Ayleids weren't even a thing when Topal sailed around Tamriel, I think you haven't got a clue when Topal sailed around Tamriel, but I'll give you a hint; it's before the times of Elven domination on the continent.
The author connects the Orsimer to the word Orc. But he himself does not use Orsimer in his translation. He uses Orc. Which is quite telling. You originally made the claim that Topal said Orsimer but this is not true. The translator goes on to surmise what Topal meant here. Attempting to connect the idea of Orcs with Orsimer. Its not as if Orsimer is not a word used within "Tamrielic". Words are capable of crossing barriers between languages after all.
It is possible that the tradition is wrong. Perhaps the Orcs were an aboriginal tribe predating the Aldmeri colonization. Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc"—of a different kind, whose name was to be given the Orcs in a different era. It is regrettable that the fragment ends here, for more clues to the truth are undoubtedly lost.
The author here is admitting that there is not enough information in the epic to completely connect the Orsimer and the Orcs. Youre mixing your knowledge of the lore with the authors understanding of their in-universe history and confidence in his translation. He admits straight away that he did not have a whole lot of resources to translate this epic from. He had 1 source and that was it. Thats why there is a whole lot of speculation on the part of the author after every fragment.
You have no proof that Aylieds did not exist during the time period Topal supposedly sailed up the Niben. None at all. Father of the Niben is the only source to ever claim of some mysterious Bird Men living in the very location that we now know Aylieds center of civilization existed. Aylieds much like the Aldmeri were obsessed with birds and the ideas of ascension that came from that imagery. The fragment that addresses these Bird Men is quite telling also.
Brilliant flightful creatures of glorious colors
Greeted them in Aldmeri language,
Making the mer wonder, until they
Understood they were only calling back
The word they were speaking without
Understanding it, and then the sailors
Laughed.
Topal the Pilot was enchanted with the islands
And the feathered men who lived there.
There the Niben stayed for a moon, and the bird
Men learned how to speak their own words,
And with taloned feet, to write.
In joy for their new knowledge, they made Topal
Their lord, giving him their islands for the
Gift.
The creatures of glorious colors greeted the explorers in Aldmeris. Not the other way around. The next few lines are meant to be a dig at the Aylied civilization, accusing them of not being true Aldmeri. Topal then goes on to spend time there teaching the Bird Men their own language.
Its not a coincidence that all of the races addressed in this epic hail from civilizations that worship daedra or other alien gods.
Yes, he uses the word orc in the translation because the word Orsimer in Aldmeris translates to Orc in Tamrielic. The author says it is odd that Topal used the word ''Orsimer'' because the Orcish creation myth states they were created after Topal already sailed around Tamriel - hence why the author also asks if maybe the creation myth is wrong.
The Ayleids are one of the Aldmeri who came to Tamriel. Topal was the one who discovered Tamriel. In other words, every other elven race came to Tamriel after him. The Ayleids came to Tamriel after explorers, with Topal being specifically mentioned, made accounts of the land:
''Expeditions, such as those taken by Topal the Pilot and others, had painted an image in their minds of a great land where even workers, at the lowest end of the Summerset hierarchy could live as kings. The Prophet Veloth was among those who led a group of discontented Aldmer away from Summerset to a new promised land.
According to the traditions of Summerset, the Aldmer who went to be free on the mainland became all the disparate elven folk of history: Chimer, Bosmer, Ayleid. The ones who stayed behind became the Altmer. Even the earliest records of Summerset, however, shed no light on the origins of the Dwemer, who already occupied the northeast of Tamriel when Veloth and his people arrived there.''
~Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition: Summerset Isles
The beastfolk of Cyrodiil, which are almost without doubt the ''birdpeople'', have likewise also been mentioned, and were enslaved by the Ayleids:
''Torval sailed all the way from Topal Bay up the Niben Valley. He purchased the Eight Islands...the site of White Gold Tower and the Imperial City...from the beastfolk natives for the secret of literacy. Pretty soon, the beastfolk all knew how to read and write...which was handy, since it made them better slaves for the Ayleids, hahaha."
-Decentius Opsius
So nice try, but no.
You are taking this epic literally when it is not actually literal. None of the things stated in the epic actually happens because the point of the epic is not to recount actual events. Its racist propaganda meant to establish the superiority of the Aldmeri.
The Tamrielic translation of Orismer is Pariah Folk or Cursed Folk. The author even addresses this below his translation. He addresses the actual translation while suggesting that Topal meant Orsimer when he said whatever word he used for Orc. Otherwise why is the author unsure of what Topal meant? There would be no need to suggest any possibilities.
Your source is a coast guard. Not a historian or any actual expert on the time period/subject matter. A guy that has absolutely nothing to back up his comment. I bet you believe every Skyrim guard were adventurers before taking arrows to the knee too. You seem to struggle with the idea of the unreliable narrator.
I can tell you're not in any way familiar with TESlore, so I'll leave it here. You did give me a few good laughs though, alongside UESP and TESwiki editors.
You do realize UESP supports the idea that Orsimer are "elven", right?
Not really, UESP suScythe_Mercer wrote: »Scythe_Mercer wrote: »Scythe_Mercer wrote: »Scythe_Mercer wrote: »Scythe_Mercer wrote: »
LMAO seriously dude, FLAT EARTH?!?Being the majority doesn't mean you're right. Remember that flat-earthers were the majority of the earth's population once upon a time too, would you argue that because of that, believing in flat-earth is truth, and that thus the majority of the people believing that are clearly intelligent?
the relevant thing there is that further research and evidence proved many times in many ways that the earth is round.
& nowadays if you believe in a Discworld you are either a disciple of T Pratchett, or globally mocked.
GLOBE-ally *hee* ...see what I did there?
also.... Ankh-Morpork forever!
I think the majority of lore enthusiasts since Oblivion, have enjoyed the expanding lore for the Orsimer, and its pretty obvious they are Elves... they can procreate with nords and bosmer anyway! boom-shakka-lakka!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOPPL65zUQ
& Out of morbid curiosity, what's your lore 'world view' IF they were a lost tribe/stronghold of "modern" Orcs that Topal teaches his language?
The current accepted lore is that everyone is descended from the Old Aldmer, down through the Ayelids, to the tribes we have today, but it also mentions in Topal that he encounters a now lost tribe of bird-people, who could be pre-Bosmer cousins before they can only be Elves or a whole seperate thing...
MY big curiosity is for the rest of the Betmer, do the Tang-Mo have a separate or shared history with the Limlothiit and Khajiit?
& Are the Tsascei and Lamia lost tribes of the Hist?
Argonians can also procreate with the races of Elf, what's your argument again?
I'd love to delve deeper into that topic, could you elaborate further?
Unless you’re in Shivering Isles my man that can’t happen period, if you mean reproduction that is if not imma zip it for now. : x
Prove it.
To quote savants from TES III:
''Imperial scholars consider Men, Elves, and Beastmen as 'men,' on the basis that individuals of all three groups can mate with one another. Offspring of inter-racial matings have the racial appearance of the mother, but may occasionally share inherited characteristics and abilities of the father. Sloads, dragons, and other sentient races cannot mate with Men, Elves, or Beastmen, and are not considered 'human.' Exceptional accounts of matings between men and daedra do not fit smoothly into this scheme."''
We going about this again Bruccy? ‘Imperial Scholars’ are heavily biased not to mention trusting only scholars, NPCs and the like is quite a long shot and very unreliable. Adding to that, solely quoting the ‘Savants’ from TES III and depending on their ‘beliefs’ cause the key word in that quotation is ‘believes’ as in its what they think it doesn’t make it fact. Argonians have a completely different biology then the other Races. Meaning reproduction is either not documented or impossible due to their biology. Khajiit are heavily debated but for now reproduction with both Beastfolk races and Men and Mer are only theories by ‘scholars.’
And Khajiits also have completely different biology in between themselves, using your argument, and Ohmes and a Senche wouldn't be able to reproduce. I say to you: prove it. There is evidence of an Argonian giving birth after mating with a non-Argonian, after all.
Ohmes, Senche, etc are *sub-species* of the *same race.* Argonians are completely different from Nirn entirely. I say to you, prove your source. Let's see you pull up Morrowind lore that has for the most part been retconned. The game was made in 2001, its 2019 pretty sure Bethesda's early works are being fixed dude.
Edit: If you pull up Fall of Vitharn, that source is the most unreliable book entirely for it was written in the *Shivering Isles* a *Plane of Oblivion belonging to Sheogorath* whatever happens in that realm is Sheo's law and will. On Nirn it is impossible for Argonians to reproduce with non-Argonians but in a Plane of Oblivion it is possible if the Prince wills it. You've been informed of this before I am certain.
It is just the same as saying the USEP wiki page about Lamia is true cause some villagers said/claimed that Lamias had offspring with a man. Quotes from *commonfolk.*
Why don't you prove it wrong? Not only do we have evidence of beastfolk mating with a race of Man (Vitharn, which you dismiss because it goes against your rant), but it's also supported by Imperial scholars.
All you've done is say ''It's impossible!'' without providing evidence to show it.
Rant? It’s a debate, I’m just saying my side in the matter. You have not provided proof either that is in the plane of Nirn since case of Argonian and non-Argonian reproduction in the Shivering Isles is the most unreliable source and quite outlandish to depend on that book. I’ve said it before but it seems you have trouble understanding, Imperial scholars are not the smartest people in the world. They are quite biased and the Savants you love to bring up are not reliable either for the only time they were mentioned was in TES III which I might add is not the only lore in TES around. Solely relying on such ‘claims’ by Imperial scholars about a race they know nothing about is the same as believing a farmer who claims they’ve seen a Giant and Ogre mate and have offspring. Play the Murkmire DLC from ESO or read up on it and perhaps you’ll be more well informed such as the Ayleid biologist that questions how the Argonians are even ‘alive’ the source may be Ayleid but that race has far more credibility then Imperial scholars again due to their limited understanding of other races and their biased opinions of their own race and views. As for the Khajiit topic here is a subreddit from Leamon Tuttle himself the current Loremaster https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/welcome_to_the_elsweyr_update_22_aua/epwr3ip/ here he is stating that different Khajiit sub-species are compatible for relationships and reproduction, only obstacles are physical builds.
See, classic old rant. ''Your sources, which I can't prove to be wrong, must be wrong because they contradict what I say!''
Ironic that you also mention that ''Imperial scholars are unreliable'', yet blindly take the words of the Ayleids - who are famous for their direct racism and immoral practices - as pure fact.
I also find it ironic how you like to say ''See, they can mate with one another!'', yet deny the possibility of this being the case with other races... Without evidence to prove as such.
I love how you claim I am ranting when I am not upset at all I'm just explaining things here I also love how you did not read half of what I said and nit picked. But I expected this from you Bruccius. I did prove them wrong you're just heavily biased towards Imperials and Morrowind lore. I did not 'blindly' take the words of the Ayleids its actually proven they're more intelligent then Imperials if you've played the Murkmire DLC or even looked at what they accomplished. *And* I must point it that I did not 'deny' the possibility of Khajiit interbreeding with other races I said it was 'debatable' and the proof that they 'possibly' could is not anywhere the only evidence we have of Khajiit reproduction is in the subreddit I linked and the information we have on the USEP and the like.
Mate, you claim Imperial scholars are biased just because they're Imperials and claim lore added in TES III is false just because it was written in TES III, while TES III formed the core for TES as we know it.
It's pointless to debate with someone who suffers from such bias.
Glass houses Bruccius, you’re putting words into my mouth at this point. TES III sure built up a lot of metaphysical lore and cultural lore of the Dunmer other then that no it doesn’t add much, ESO has added more cultural lore of the different races then anything. It *is* a fact Imperials are biased and try to convert other people and provinces to their rule. Just because Imperial scholars say one thing doesn’t mean they’re correct. The key word in that Savant quote is ‘consider’ as in its what they believe. Is it because they believe it is it fact? Does the word of a peasant farmer who claims to have seen an offspring of an Giant and Ogre become fact just because they write it in a journal and it’s a note you can read in game? Lorebooks, quotes, citations written by NPCS cannot entirely be trusted it is simple fact in the ES universe. You claim I am biased yet you seem to cling onto Imperial scholars and Morrowind lore rather then find actual reliable sources not ones from a Plane of Oblivion or the Savants who have not been mentioned in any way beyond TES III. You can go ahead and rely on unreliable quotes, sources or retconned lore. Go ahead and ignore other games and common sense exist. Oh, and thanks for ignoring the other two that had an input towards ya and gunned right for me.
Someone clearly hasn't played Morrowind thorougly, lol. I really recommend you replay the game.
''Imperial scholars are biased because of (insert racist claim with nothing to prove it)''.
The key words in that Savant quote is ''on the basis'' that they can mate with one another. The Imperial scholars come to the conclusion that they did because of the fact that they know that inter-racial mating is a thing.
The only one ignoring common sense here is you, bud. But then again, you've clearly only played ESO seriously.
Here you are again putting words into people’s mouths as usual, jumping to conclusions. I’ve played every game since Arena and Daggerfall good job assuming I didn’t. I play other games cause Morrowind isn’t the only existing game which you seem to think. Imperial scholars are racist just based on how they act towards other races and their efforts to convert them to their religion and Empire, or did that fly by you like everything else? Inter racial mating is a thing yes. Man and Mer can reproduce, with Beastfolk I’ve said Khajiit is *debatable* and Argonians are impossible due to their complete alien nature. They’re not a natural race of Nirn at all they’re completely different the evidence is clear if you’ve bothered to study the race thoroughly rather then just assume things like the Imperial scholars did. That’s what they did *assume* for they believe they know everything and anyone who disagrees with them is uneducated and uncultured. An easy comparison would be a Bosmer scholar claiming Imperials only marry into their family. Does that make it fact? The others on this thread are correct, your attitude and arrogance would not be welcome on TESlore or anywhere else. Your ‘reliable material’ you claim to others is outlandish far-fetched. Apparently the laws of Oblivion are the same as Nirn to you if you think Fall of Vitharn is correct and reliable not to mention your obsession with quoting ‘sources’ from one game alone. The one who’s really biased is the one in the mirror you look at buddy.Edited by Scythe_Mercer on 26 June 2019 18:140 -
Bruccius✭✭✭✭✭@Scythe_Mercer
''They are racist because I say they are racist''
Scholars are not politicians. Scholars are, you guessed it, scholars. They are not priests, they are not part of the Imperial Comission, they are literally people who study. Imperial Scholars do not try to convert or anything of the sort, prove me wrong, if you can.
The Imperial scholars didn't assume. They consider all of the sentient races of Tamriel as ''Man'' on the basis that they can all mate with one antother. Just like how we consider both oak and maple to be types of trees based on the way that they consist of wood.
Your comparison is false. ''WHaT If A BoSMEr SchoLAr SaID THeY MArRy WIThIN TheiR Own FAmiLY?'', this wouldn't happen because scholars are not the ones writing propaganda. You are aware what a scholar is, yes? It is obvious you don't know what a savant is, so I'll get you the definition of the word ''scholar'':
''a person who studies a subject in great detail, especially at a university''
I've quoted sources from Arena up until ESO itself. I've yet to see you use any sources. Which does not surprise me, considering the only sources for Orcs being ''elves'' are a piece of anti-Orc propaganda and an unreliable quest revolving around a Daedric Prince's artifact.0 -
Scythe_Mercer✭✭✭@Bruccius It's not just me that says they are racist. Given the dialogue Imperial NPCs in Elsweyr had about the local Khajiit some insisted the city of Rimmen be burned or that since Euraxia and her Imperial forces took over they would 'civilize' the Khajiit as their 'Queen' explain Euraxia and that situation. The races of TES do not function and think like irl people do. Altmer scholars will view their writing and studies better then any other races studies. Same could be said about Imperials they write what *they* think is right not what it is factually true. While perhaps not all Imperials think the same way there are certainly a fair amount that do. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Carusian_Matius one example of Imperial racism though the other Imperial NPCs have yet to be documented, that's USEPwiki for ya. I've yet to see *you* provide reliable sources as well. I am not really concerned for the Orc topic more so the Beastfolk mating topic. I guess I must repeat that if you've played Murkmire and it's sidequests it's obvious they're an alien species not native to Nirn, they're not of Anuic creation but of Padomay https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Padomay https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Anu. If I must link the page for the race so be it https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:ArgonianEdited by Scythe_Mercer on 26 June 2019 23:030
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PrayingSeraph✭✭✭✭✭Bruccius won't admit racism in TES when it goes against his sources. If I remember correctly on the last thread, he considered the altmer Sapiarch of Indoctrination to be without bias....
And you are right, Argonians are an alien species. The ayleids were shocked when they studied argonian biology, asking how the argonians are even aliveEdited by PrayingSeraph on 26 June 2019 23:063 -
Scythe_Mercer✭✭✭PrayingSeraph wrote: »Bruccius won't admit racism in TES when it goes against his sources. If I remember correctly on the last thread, he considered the altmer Sapiarch of Indoctrination to be without bias....
And you are right, Argonians are an alien species. The ayleids were shocked when they studied argonian biology, asking how the argonians are even alive
Exactly, no matter what you do he just argues for the sake of arguing, disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing to be different. Wait he considered the Sapi-wow are you serious? lol3 -
PrayingSeraph✭✭✭✭✭Scythe_Mercer wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »Bruccius won't admit racism in TES when it goes against his sources. If I remember correctly on the last thread, he considered the altmer Sapiarch of Indoctrination to be without bias....
And you are right, Argonians are an alien species. The ayleids were shocked when they studied argonian biology, asking how the argonians are even alive
Exactly, no matter what you do he just argues for the sake of arguing, disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing to be different. Wait he considered the Sapi-wow are you serious? lol
Yep. I just looked back. One of his "sources" for Orsimer being a beats race rather than aldmeri descendent was "The Crimes of the Daggerfall Covenant". Let me quote it
""The kingdoms of the Daggerfall Covenant are inhabited by mongrel upstarts who have cruelly suppressed our Direnni cousins: the High Elves who are the rightful rulers of northwest Tamriel. They were largely complicit in the rise of the dangerous and genocidal fanatics known as the Alessian Order. They allow their pirates to prey on Aldmeri shipping. The Bretons are also so indiscriminate that they have accepted the bestial Orsimer as allies. (Orsimer! Can you imagine?) Though capable of mustering substantial brute force, there is no evidence that these degraded hybrids have the wisdom or learning to deal with the mystical disaster now threatening the Mundus. They must be disciplined and subdued as rapidly as possible, so the Dominion can get on with the business of saving the world ... and protecting it in the future." by Aicantar of Shimmerene, Sapiarch of Indoctrination
Then he also stated "Before the Ages of Men" as a source, also written by Aicantar, Sapiarch of Indoctrination
When I objected to it's obvious bias and authorship, he replies with..
"Yes, a sapiarch who wanted to point out how Tamriel was before the races of Man. No agenda against the Orcs, yet here you are, assuming his claims are wrong, despite it clearly being researched."
At that point, I pretty much gave up hope of having a constructive conversation. Listen Bruccius, I won't change your mind. No one here will change your mind.That's fine, we fans can believe whatever we want at the end of the day. It's a fictional story. But you insulted the intelligence of many people on this thread when we disagree with you and accuse others of bias. So I called this outEdited by PrayingSeraph on 27 June 2019 01:162 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread
However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial
And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.
Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.
Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.
Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.
You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.
That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.
Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.
Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.
Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.
Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims
Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.
Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?
See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"
Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.
Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.
Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.
The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.
'' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
This is the definition that our author gives.
The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.
If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.
"For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"
The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.
Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.
Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.
Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.
Jesus christ you really cant take a L can you? You make a claim that is proven false and you come back with "It was translated, thats why it was not what I said it was".
No one knows what was said in the original text because its a translation. This is the only available text we have regarding the poem. You cant possibly extract that the original word was Orsimer from anything in the poem. You want to talk about blind speculation. There you have it bud. You cant separate your own personal beliefs for what is right in front of you.
Reread the bloody book, please. It takes a bit of common sense to read what is written there without coming to the absurd notion that you came to.
Ive read the poem plenty of times. You claimed the book literally says Orsimer. And when someone points out that you have made a incorrect statement about the poem. You start claiming they have blindly quoted it. Youre not right, youre wrong and continuing to double down by attacking everyone else is not going to change that.
By the way, the Father of the Niben is a racist load of nonsense. The entire poem is meant to convey to the Aldmeri of the Summerset Isles that they are superior to not just the Khajiit and Orsimer, but the Aylieds aswell and that mainland Tamriel is a savage, barbaric wasteland that any Aldmeri should feel lucky to come away from alive. The Khajiit are described as demons that relentlessly attempt to attack the Aldmeri from the shoreline. The Orsimer are the stereotypical blood thirsty barbarian horde and the Aylieds are so far removed from their Elven ancestry that they can only mimic their ancestors culture and language but are incapable of understanding it. And the cherry on top? That when all is said and done the Bird-Men willingly bestow upon Topal and in extension the Aldmeri the most important structure on all of Tamriel and Nirn, the White Gold Tower.
I know it can be difficult to step back from the lore and look at it from a position of objectivity. But the Father of the Niben is really a terrible bit of misinformation that would never ever back up the notion of the Orcs being related in any fashion to the rest of the Elves. It would completely undermine the message of the poem.
''Perhaps these were a cursed folk -- "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" - of a different kind, whose name was to be given the orcs in a different era. ''
The author specifically points out the word ''Orsimer'' because it's in the Aldmeris language. Note at the start of the book:
''The translation of the Aldmeri Udhendra Nibenu, "Father of the Niben," is my own, and I accept that other scholars may disagree with some of my choice of words. I cannot promise my translation lives up to the beauty of the original: I have only strived for simple coherence.''
In other words, the author used the word Orsimer - which is the word used in Aldmeris - and translated it to Orc, which is what it means in Tamrielic.
Ayleids weren't even a thing when Topal sailed around Tamriel, I think you haven't got a clue when Topal sailed around Tamriel, but I'll give you a hint; it's before the times of Elven domination on the continent.
The author connects the Orsimer to the word Orc. But he himself does not use Orsimer in his translation. He uses Orc. Which is quite telling. You originally made the claim that Topal said Orsimer but this is not true. The translator goes on to surmise what Topal meant here. Attempting to connect the idea of Orcs with Orsimer. Its not as if Orsimer is not a word used within "Tamrielic". Words are capable of crossing barriers between languages after all.
It is possible that the tradition is wrong. Perhaps the Orcs were an aboriginal tribe predating the Aldmeri colonization. Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc"—of a different kind, whose name was to be given the Orcs in a different era. It is regrettable that the fragment ends here, for more clues to the truth are undoubtedly lost.
The author here is admitting that there is not enough information in the epic to completely connect the Orsimer and the Orcs. Youre mixing your knowledge of the lore with the authors understanding of their in-universe history and confidence in his translation. He admits straight away that he did not have a whole lot of resources to translate this epic from. He had 1 source and that was it. Thats why there is a whole lot of speculation on the part of the author after every fragment.
You have no proof that Aylieds did not exist during the time period Topal supposedly sailed up the Niben. None at all. Father of the Niben is the only source to ever claim of some mysterious Bird Men living in the very location that we now know Aylieds center of civilization existed. Aylieds much like the Aldmeri were obsessed with birds and the ideas of ascension that came from that imagery. The fragment that addresses these Bird Men is quite telling also.
Brilliant flightful creatures of glorious colors
Greeted them in Aldmeri language,
Making the mer wonder, until they
Understood they were only calling back
The word they were speaking without
Understanding it, and then the sailors
Laughed.
Topal the Pilot was enchanted with the islands
And the feathered men who lived there.
There the Niben stayed for a moon, and the bird
Men learned how to speak their own words,
And with taloned feet, to write.
In joy for their new knowledge, they made Topal
Their lord, giving him their islands for the
Gift.
The creatures of glorious colors greeted the explorers in Aldmeris. Not the other way around. The next few lines are meant to be a dig at the Aylied civilization, accusing them of not being true Aldmeri. Topal then goes on to spend time there teaching the Bird Men their own language.
Its not a coincidence that all of the races addressed in this epic hail from civilizations that worship daedra or other alien gods.
Yes, he uses the word orc in the translation because the word Orsimer in Aldmeris translates to Orc in Tamrielic. The author says it is odd that Topal used the word ''Orsimer'' because the Orcish creation myth states they were created after Topal already sailed around Tamriel - hence why the author also asks if maybe the creation myth is wrong.
The Ayleids are one of the Aldmeri who came to Tamriel. Topal was the one who discovered Tamriel. In other words, every other elven race came to Tamriel after him. The Ayleids came to Tamriel after explorers, with Topal being specifically mentioned, made accounts of the land:
''Expeditions, such as those taken by Topal the Pilot and others, had painted an image in their minds of a great land where even workers, at the lowest end of the Summerset hierarchy could live as kings. The Prophet Veloth was among those who led a group of discontented Aldmer away from Summerset to a new promised land.
According to the traditions of Summerset, the Aldmer who went to be free on the mainland became all the disparate elven folk of history: Chimer, Bosmer, Ayleid. The ones who stayed behind became the Altmer. Even the earliest records of Summerset, however, shed no light on the origins of the Dwemer, who already occupied the northeast of Tamriel when Veloth and his people arrived there.''
~Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition: Summerset Isles
The beastfolk of Cyrodiil, which are almost without doubt the ''birdpeople'', have likewise also been mentioned, and were enslaved by the Ayleids:
''Torval sailed all the way from Topal Bay up the Niben Valley. He purchased the Eight Islands...the site of White Gold Tower and the Imperial City...from the beastfolk natives for the secret of literacy. Pretty soon, the beastfolk all knew how to read and write...which was handy, since it made them better slaves for the Ayleids, hahaha."
-Decentius Opsius
So nice try, but no.
You are taking this epic literally when it is not actually literal. None of the things stated in the epic actually happens because the point of the epic is not to recount actual events. Its racist propaganda meant to establish the superiority of the Aldmeri.
The Tamrielic translation of Orismer is Pariah Folk or Cursed Folk. The author even addresses this below his translation. He addresses the actual translation while suggesting that Topal meant Orsimer when he said whatever word he used for Orc. Otherwise why is the author unsure of what Topal meant? There would be no need to suggest any possibilities.
Your source is a coast guard. Not a historian or any actual expert on the time period/subject matter. A guy that has absolutely nothing to back up his comment. I bet you believe every Skyrim guard were adventurers before taking arrows to the knee too. You seem to struggle with the idea of the unreliable narrator.
I can tell you're not in any way familiar with TESlore, so I'll leave it here. You did give me a few good laughs though, alongside UESP and TESwiki editors.
You are hilariously mistaken if you think insinuating that Im not drinking the kool-aid over at the echo chamber that is TESLore is an insult. TESLore would also rip your opinions to shreds since there is plenty of people over there with the same opinion as me in regards to Topal and his "epic". And unlike here, they would ban you for your excessively hostile behavior towards others with differing opinions. Thats probably why youre here trying to play up the lore expert that you obviously arent.
You lost this argument a long time ago with your in ability to actually stay on topic and address the points people were making. Instead you resorted to insults when people pointed out your mistakes and incorrect information. You can laugh about that all you want, but the rest of the people participating in this topic are all quietly shaking their heads at your strange behavior.
I haven't heard a single counter argument, all I've heard is people yell ''Imperial scholars are inaccurate because I'm a racist who thinks Imperials must be wrong because they're Imperials'', or hear folks like yourself yell ''Topal is clearly a racist and his exploration of Tamriel is just a myth'', both claims with nothing to back them up. Also known as claims based on thin air.
So no, I didn't ''lose'' jack. It's people like yourself, who are so fully convinced of themselves, that they refuse to look at the other side, nor check the reliability of their own sources.
There is an overwhelming amount of counter arguments in this thread that has absolutely without a doubt debunked and destroyed your arguments left and right. Its not even a debate about Orcs anymore but instead about you and your inability to socialize with others in a normal manner. People have quoted and linked numerous times lore that contradicts and explicitly puts to bed things you have claimed here. Playing the denial game wont change the fact you have nothing to base your arguments on and have been proven to be wrong time and again.
The overwhelming majority of posters in this thread has taken a stance in opposition to you. And somehow every last one of them are wrong and "full of themselves". Somehow no one else here has evidence or capable of dissecting the lore. Only Bruccius is right, only Bruccius has evidence, only Bruccius knows the lore like the back of his hand and has reliable sources for days.
Either everyone besides Bruccius is just making everything up. Or the one person that has been arguing with everyone in this thread cant accept being wrong and needs to lash out when confronted about it. I hope you reach out and talk to someone IRL Bruccius. It might help.Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax3 -
kylewwefan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭5 pages in now, can the lore junkies here confirm ( like the chart) that Orc’s are indeed elvish descendants...that’s all that was really asked.
Now I see where I got this idea about inter racial mating, but still not sure you really see that anywhere in the game?
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Bruccius✭✭✭✭✭Scythe_Mercer wrote: »@Bruccius It's not just me that says they are racist. Given the dialogue Imperial NPCs in Elsweyr had about the local Khajiit some insisted the city of Rimmen be burned or that since Euraxia and her Imperial forces took over they would 'civilize' the Khajiit as their 'Queen' explain Euraxia and that situation. The races of TES do not function and think like irl people do. Altmer scholars will view their writing and studies better then any other races studies. Same could be said about Imperials they write what *they* think is right not what it is factually true. While perhaps not all Imperials think the same way there are certainly a fair amount that do. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Carusian_Matius one example of Imperial racism though the other Imperial NPCs have yet to be documented, that's USEPwiki for ya. I've yet to see *you* provide reliable sources as well. I am not really concerned for the Orc topic more so the Beastfolk mating topic. I guess I must repeat that if you've played Murkmire and it's sidequests it's obvious they're an alien species not native to Nirn, they're not of Anuic creation but of Padomay https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Padomay https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Anu. If I must link the page for the race so be it https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Argonian
''Imperial racism''
Oh rlly. Imperial racism, you mean the people who unified Tamriel under one banner and permitted each race to keep its own customs and cultures? The Imperial racists who allowed one of their own Counts to be a Dunmer? The Imperial racists who gave the Orcs Imperial citizenship - the first of Tamriel to recognize them as more than just savages? The Imperial racists who acknowledge that most of their arts and crafts are inspired by the Altmer of old? Tell me, oh wise one, where is your ''Imperial racism''? Even your little ''source'' doesn't prove any sort of racism.0 -
Bruccius✭✭✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread
However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial
And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.
Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.
Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.
Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.
You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.
That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.
Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.
Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.
Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.
Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims
Oh no, not in the slightest. These Aldmer were warped when Malacath was created; they were warped into Beastfolk; the Orcs who had already walked Tamriel during the times of Topal.
Malacath being the Orc father doesn't magically make the Orcs elven. Malacath is also the father of Ogres and Goblins, yet you see no connection here. Do you always cherry pick what you do, and don't, see?
See, this is part of the reason I have not been bothering to debate you. You completely ignored the fact I already responded to your Topal arguement on the last thread as well as to all your other poor "sources"
Topal's description of the "orcs" was vague and not at all like we see Orsimer in TES. If anything, it sounded more like an ogre, maybe goblin.
Topal's vague description of what he saw doesn't prove your point.
Topal literally used the word Orsimer to describe what he saw, hence why the author of the book specifically pointed out the word ''Orsimer''.
The very fact that Topal used the word Orsimer, before the Orsimer even existed, and thus before the word ''Orsimer'' would exist, directly shows that the creation myth is literally just that; a myth.
'' "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" ''
This is the definition that our author gives.
The word Orsimer - regardless of which definition you force onto it - would only exist if the very thing it talks about - the Orsimer, existed.
If the Orsimer didn't exist, neither would the word. Topal used the word Orsimer, specifically, meaning that they existed. The problem with you is that you somehow lack the ability to see this.
"For sixty-six days and nights, he sailed, over crashing
Waves of dire intent, past whirlpools, through
Mist that burned like fire, until he reached the
Mouth of a great bay and he landed on a
Sun-kissed meadow of gentle dells.
As he and his men rested, there came a fearsome howl,
And hideous Orcs streamed forth from the murky
Glen, cannibal teeth clotted with gore"
The Epic said Orc, not Orsimer. Remember you got that wrong before you come back with another pretentious reply about my intelligence. What they describe is nothing like Orcs, but rather something truly bestial, cannibalistic and very primitive. Orcs are none of these things.
Also, word's and terms can change over time, if you don't know. Newly discovered races can be called names that existed long before discovery, hence "Indians" for native indigenous North Americans. The term "orc" could have well existed long before Orsimer came into existence after Malacath's transformation and then adopted by the new race. Your point is incredibly flawed and again, proves nothing.
Yes, there you go, you blindly quote the book without reading the very important bit at the start. The author has translated Topal's verses, he directly says so. Hence why the book quotes Topal's verses in Tamrielic instead of Aldmeris; despite the fact that Tamrielic wasn't the language used by the Aldmer. The author of the book translated the work of Topal, and when it mentioned Orcs he pulled up the word used by Topal; Orsimer.
Your argument relies on an ''if''. There is nothing to prove that the word Orsimer was used for anything other than Orcs. Your blind speculation is therefore irrelevant.
Jesus christ you really cant take a L can you? You make a claim that is proven false and you come back with "It was translated, thats why it was not what I said it was".
No one knows what was said in the original text because its a translation. This is the only available text we have regarding the poem. You cant possibly extract that the original word was Orsimer from anything in the poem. You want to talk about blind speculation. There you have it bud. You cant separate your own personal beliefs for what is right in front of you.
Reread the bloody book, please. It takes a bit of common sense to read what is written there without coming to the absurd notion that you came to.
Ive read the poem plenty of times. You claimed the book literally says Orsimer. And when someone points out that you have made a incorrect statement about the poem. You start claiming they have blindly quoted it. Youre not right, youre wrong and continuing to double down by attacking everyone else is not going to change that.
By the way, the Father of the Niben is a racist load of nonsense. The entire poem is meant to convey to the Aldmeri of the Summerset Isles that they are superior to not just the Khajiit and Orsimer, but the Aylieds aswell and that mainland Tamriel is a savage, barbaric wasteland that any Aldmeri should feel lucky to come away from alive. The Khajiit are described as demons that relentlessly attempt to attack the Aldmeri from the shoreline. The Orsimer are the stereotypical blood thirsty barbarian horde and the Aylieds are so far removed from their Elven ancestry that they can only mimic their ancestors culture and language but are incapable of understanding it. And the cherry on top? That when all is said and done the Bird-Men willingly bestow upon Topal and in extension the Aldmeri the most important structure on all of Tamriel and Nirn, the White Gold Tower.
I know it can be difficult to step back from the lore and look at it from a position of objectivity. But the Father of the Niben is really a terrible bit of misinformation that would never ever back up the notion of the Orcs being related in any fashion to the rest of the Elves. It would completely undermine the message of the poem.
''Perhaps these were a cursed folk -- "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" - of a different kind, whose name was to be given the orcs in a different era. ''
The author specifically points out the word ''Orsimer'' because it's in the Aldmeris language. Note at the start of the book:
''The translation of the Aldmeri Udhendra Nibenu, "Father of the Niben," is my own, and I accept that other scholars may disagree with some of my choice of words. I cannot promise my translation lives up to the beauty of the original: I have only strived for simple coherence.''
In other words, the author used the word Orsimer - which is the word used in Aldmeris - and translated it to Orc, which is what it means in Tamrielic.
Ayleids weren't even a thing when Topal sailed around Tamriel, I think you haven't got a clue when Topal sailed around Tamriel, but I'll give you a hint; it's before the times of Elven domination on the continent.
The author connects the Orsimer to the word Orc. But he himself does not use Orsimer in his translation. He uses Orc. Which is quite telling. You originally made the claim that Topal said Orsimer but this is not true. The translator goes on to surmise what Topal meant here. Attempting to connect the idea of Orcs with Orsimer. Its not as if Orsimer is not a word used within "Tamrielic". Words are capable of crossing barriers between languages after all.
It is possible that the tradition is wrong. Perhaps the Orcs were an aboriginal tribe predating the Aldmeri colonization. Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc"—of a different kind, whose name was to be given the Orcs in a different era. It is regrettable that the fragment ends here, for more clues to the truth are undoubtedly lost.
The author here is admitting that there is not enough information in the epic to completely connect the Orsimer and the Orcs. Youre mixing your knowledge of the lore with the authors understanding of their in-universe history and confidence in his translation. He admits straight away that he did not have a whole lot of resources to translate this epic from. He had 1 source and that was it. Thats why there is a whole lot of speculation on the part of the author after every fragment.
You have no proof that Aylieds did not exist during the time period Topal supposedly sailed up the Niben. None at all. Father of the Niben is the only source to ever claim of some mysterious Bird Men living in the very location that we now know Aylieds center of civilization existed. Aylieds much like the Aldmeri were obsessed with birds and the ideas of ascension that came from that imagery. The fragment that addresses these Bird Men is quite telling also.
Brilliant flightful creatures of glorious colors
Greeted them in Aldmeri language,
Making the mer wonder, until they
Understood they were only calling back
The word they were speaking without
Understanding it, and then the sailors
Laughed.
Topal the Pilot was enchanted with the islands
And the feathered men who lived there.
There the Niben stayed for a moon, and the bird
Men learned how to speak their own words,
And with taloned feet, to write.
In joy for their new knowledge, they made Topal
Their lord, giving him their islands for the
Gift.
The creatures of glorious colors greeted the explorers in Aldmeris. Not the other way around. The next few lines are meant to be a dig at the Aylied civilization, accusing them of not being true Aldmeri. Topal then goes on to spend time there teaching the Bird Men their own language.
Its not a coincidence that all of the races addressed in this epic hail from civilizations that worship daedra or other alien gods.
Yes, he uses the word orc in the translation because the word Orsimer in Aldmeris translates to Orc in Tamrielic. The author says it is odd that Topal used the word ''Orsimer'' because the Orcish creation myth states they were created after Topal already sailed around Tamriel - hence why the author also asks if maybe the creation myth is wrong.
The Ayleids are one of the Aldmeri who came to Tamriel. Topal was the one who discovered Tamriel. In other words, every other elven race came to Tamriel after him. The Ayleids came to Tamriel after explorers, with Topal being specifically mentioned, made accounts of the land:
''Expeditions, such as those taken by Topal the Pilot and others, had painted an image in their minds of a great land where even workers, at the lowest end of the Summerset hierarchy could live as kings. The Prophet Veloth was among those who led a group of discontented Aldmer away from Summerset to a new promised land.
According to the traditions of Summerset, the Aldmer who went to be free on the mainland became all the disparate elven folk of history: Chimer, Bosmer, Ayleid. The ones who stayed behind became the Altmer. Even the earliest records of Summerset, however, shed no light on the origins of the Dwemer, who already occupied the northeast of Tamriel when Veloth and his people arrived there.''
~Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition: Summerset Isles
The beastfolk of Cyrodiil, which are almost without doubt the ''birdpeople'', have likewise also been mentioned, and were enslaved by the Ayleids:
''Torval sailed all the way from Topal Bay up the Niben Valley. He purchased the Eight Islands...the site of White Gold Tower and the Imperial City...from the beastfolk natives for the secret of literacy. Pretty soon, the beastfolk all knew how to read and write...which was handy, since it made them better slaves for the Ayleids, hahaha."
-Decentius Opsius
So nice try, but no.
You are taking this epic literally when it is not actually literal. None of the things stated in the epic actually happens because the point of the epic is not to recount actual events. Its racist propaganda meant to establish the superiority of the Aldmeri.
The Tamrielic translation of Orismer is Pariah Folk or Cursed Folk. The author even addresses this below his translation. He addresses the actual translation while suggesting that Topal meant Orsimer when he said whatever word he used for Orc. Otherwise why is the author unsure of what Topal meant? There would be no need to suggest any possibilities.
Your source is a coast guard. Not a historian or any actual expert on the time period/subject matter. A guy that has absolutely nothing to back up his comment. I bet you believe every Skyrim guard were adventurers before taking arrows to the knee too. You seem to struggle with the idea of the unreliable narrator.
I can tell you're not in any way familiar with TESlore, so I'll leave it here. You did give me a few good laughs though, alongside UESP and TESwiki editors.
You are hilariously mistaken if you think insinuating that Im not drinking the kool-aid over at the echo chamber that is TESLore is an insult. TESLore would also rip your opinions to shreds since there is plenty of people over there with the same opinion as me in regards to Topal and his "epic". And unlike here, they would ban you for your excessively hostile behavior towards others with differing opinions. Thats probably why youre here trying to play up the lore expert that you obviously arent.
You lost this argument a long time ago with your in ability to actually stay on topic and address the points people were making. Instead you resorted to insults when people pointed out your mistakes and incorrect information. You can laugh about that all you want, but the rest of the people participating in this topic are all quietly shaking their heads at your strange behavior.
I haven't heard a single counter argument, all I've heard is people yell ''Imperial scholars are inaccurate because I'm a racist who thinks Imperials must be wrong because they're Imperials'', or hear folks like yourself yell ''Topal is clearly a racist and his exploration of Tamriel is just a myth'', both claims with nothing to back them up. Also known as claims based on thin air.
So no, I didn't ''lose'' jack. It's people like yourself, who are so fully convinced of themselves, that they refuse to look at the other side, nor check the reliability of their own sources.
There is an overwhelming amount of counter arguments in this thread that has absolutely without a doubt debunked and destroyed your arguments left and right. Its not even a debate about Orcs anymore but instead about you and your inability to socialize with others in a normal manner. People have quoted and linked numerous times lore that contradicts and explicitly puts to bed things you have claimed here. Playing the denial game wont change the fact you have nothing to base your arguments on and have been proven to be wrong time and again.
The overwhelming majority of posters in this thread has taken a stance in opposition to you. And somehow every last one of them are wrong and "full of themselves". Somehow no one else here has evidence or capable of dissecting the lore. Only Bruccius is right, only Bruccius has evidence, only Bruccius knows the lore like the back of his hand and has reliable sources for days.
Either everyone besides Bruccius is just making everything up. Or the one person that has been arguing with everyone in this thread cant accept being wrong and needs to lash out when confronted about it. I hope you reach out and talk to someone IRL Bruccius. It might help.
You still have used a grand total of zero sources, bud. You know all the Skybabies who believe the Last Dragonborn is a Septim? Their delusion doesn't make them right, neither does yours.
The only ones who can't deal being confronted with the truth are you three.0 -
Bruccius✭✭✭✭✭kylewwefan wrote: »5 pages in now, can the lore junkies here confirm ( like the chart) that Orc’s are indeed elvish descendants...that’s all that was really asked.
Now I see where I got this idea about inter racial mating, but still not sure you really see that anywhere in the game?
Nope, they can't prove it, for no reliable evidence of this exists. Hence why they resort to personal attacks rather than sourced claims to prove the Orcs being Beastfolk wrong.0 -
kylewwefan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭That’s really disappointing. And what about the Khajit lineal relationship with the Bosmer...if I said that right? Was that a Bethesda Chart or some awesome fan made it up?
This has been so time consuming as I level up my young necromancer and feel compelled to read every word of these lorebooks trying to piece it all together. I thaught I was on to something with the pig children....0 -
Scythe_Mercer✭✭✭Scythe_Mercer wrote: »@Bruccius It's not just me that says they are racist. Given the dialogue Imperial NPCs in Elsweyr had about the local Khajiit some insisted the city of Rimmen be burned or that since Euraxia and her Imperial forces took over they would 'civilize' the Khajiit as their 'Queen' explain Euraxia and that situation. The races of TES do not function and think like irl people do. Altmer scholars will view their writing and studies better then any other races studies. Same could be said about Imperials they write what *they* think is right not what it is factually true. While perhaps not all Imperials think the same way there are certainly a fair amount that do. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Carusian_Matius one example of Imperial racism though the other Imperial NPCs have yet to be documented, that's USEPwiki for ya. I've yet to see *you* provide reliable sources as well. I am not really concerned for the Orc topic more so the Beastfolk mating topic. I guess I must repeat that if you've played Murkmire and it's sidequests it's obvious they're an alien species not native to Nirn, they're not of Anuic creation but of Padomay https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Padomay https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Anu. If I must link the page for the race so be it https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Argonian
''Imperial racism''
Oh rlly. Imperial racism, you mean the people who unified Tamriel under one banner and permitted each race to keep its own customs and cultures? The Imperial racists who allowed one of their own Counts to be a Dunmer? The Imperial racists who gave the Orcs Imperial citizenship - the first of Tamriel to recognize them as more than just savages? The Imperial racists who acknowledge that most of their arts and crafts are inspired by the Altmer of old? Tell me, oh wise one, where is your ''Imperial racism''? Even your little ''source'' doesn't prove any sort of racism.
‘Oh wise one?’ Really you’re stooping to such sarcastic insults? Fine whatever, forget Tiber tried to conquer all of Tamriel, forget Imperials in Leyawiin like the Count and Countess hating the Beastfolk that migrated there, let’s forget they tortured them for fun. Oh hey remember the *Alessian Order?* Remember how the Imperials betrayed the Minotaurs cause they viewed them more as beasts? My little ‘source’ I actually presented heck just read the USEP page for Orcs I’m sure you haven’t but only read TES III’s description. You have not presented any sources whatsoever that’s valid. Go ahead and ignore the metaphysics concerning the differences between Argonians and the other Races I dropped on ya. For someone who claims we can’t deal with being confronted you sure do say something in response while claiming ‘you’re right’ and only ‘you’ know the truth and with low-key insults so thanks for displaying maturity here.Edited by Scythe_Mercer on 27 June 2019 15:291 -
ZOS_RogerJ✭✭✭✭This thread has been closed to prevent further spiraling. While we completely understand everyone has their own opinions, thoughts, feelings and even frustrations, we want the forums to be a civil and constructive platform for the game and it's community as a whole.Edited by ZOS_RogerJ on 27 June 2019 16:20The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
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