Mannimarco

Sand_Traven · June 2019

I have a question regarding the bone-botherer himself, Mannimarco. Apologies are sought for any spoilers for games in TES.

I have never played TES 2: Daggerfall having come to the series with Oblivion, and having played only Morrowind, Skyrim, TESO and Legends since then. Am I right in thinking Mannimarco is supposed to have ascended to divinity as the god of worms as a result of the dramatic finale to Daggerfall, the Warp in the West? If so, I have questions.

Firstly, would he be Aedra or Daedra? Neither? Both? Would being an elf automatically make him Aedra?

Secondly, if Mannimarco becomes a god, then who is the absolute melt I killed at the end of Oblivion's Mages Guild questline? Because no way was that the Mannimarco in TESO, and definitely not the same elf who ascended to godhood.

Thirdly, which ties into the second question, did we have black soul gems before Mannimarco became the god of worms? In Oblivion I understood the "necromancer's moon" to be a phenomenon caused by the god of worms (which, again, causes me to question who on earth I'm supposed to have killed at the end of the questline). I seem to remember reading a book somewhere about different coloured souls and the creation of the gems to carry them, but in ESO I can absorb the souls of dremora - who are supposed to have black souls, as I recall - in ordinary soul gems. But in Oblivion and Skyrim I need black soul gems. Can anyone explain this?

VaranisArano · June 2019

Mannimarco is weird.

He's neither Aedra nor Daedra, those being the spirits that did or didnt lend their powers to the creation of Nirn. Rather, he's a mer who ascended. Probably the closest parallel is the Tribunal or Dagoth Ur, even though his power source - the totem and the Mantella - were permanently effective thanks to the Warp in the West, unlike the tools of Kagrenac/heart of Lorkhan.

Mannimarco in Oblivion vs Daggerfall is a rather debated topic among fans disappointed by his lackluster appearance. He becomes a god of necromancy in Daggerfall, and is apparently running around as a lich still in Oblivion (he's never stated to come back to life as a god of necromancer, but he could have made himself more well-preserved).

Here's one fan theory:

Souls are mechanically strange in ESO. Something to keep in mind is that black soul gems didnt exist in the Games until Oblivion and the distinction between white and black souls wasnt really codified until Skyrim when we discovered the fate of the Falmer. If you look back at Morrowind, for example, you'll find that many of the souls you can capture would have been black souls in later games. You can see the start of that system in ESO in Vanus Galerion's memo on soul trapping here: https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Guild_Memo_on_Soul_Trapping

So yes, by Skyrim/Oblivion standards, all soul gems we players use ought to be Black Soul Gems.

As for whether or not black soul gems existed beforehand, we actually see the Worm Cult in ESO using actual Black Soul Gems. So I'd assume that actual Black Soul Gems are something Mannimarco developed and can produce at this time for his followers. Possibly this is with the aid of Coldharbor and his supply of souls he's sending to Molag Bal, since we see large amounts of black soul gems in the Castle of the Worm quest, while the later Oblivion era black soul gems are more of a ritual that lets people create black soul gems.

Another source of black soul gems is the Soul Cairn, as in Skyrim we are able to use it to turn grand or greater soul gems into black soul gems. As the Soul Cairn and the Ideal Masters are commonly sought after by necromancers, this is also a likely source for any mage not associated with Mannimarco.

LennoxPoodle · June 2019

The thing with the warp in the west is, that it's a dragon break. During such an event time shatters, creating multiple timelines which recombine at its end. So from one possible outcome we get Mannimarco the god of worms, whilst from the others the Mannimarco the KING of worms enters the merged timeline. So both are Mannimarco, just split according to his possible fates.
The need for black soulgems is probably created by the god of Worms.

VaranisArano · June 2019

LennoxPoodle wrote: »

The thing with the warp in the west is, that it's a dragon break. During such an event time shatters, creating multiple timelines which recombine at its end. So from one possible outcome we get Mannimarco the god of worms, whilst from the others the Mannimarco the KING of worms enters the merged timeline. So both are Mannimarco, just split according to his possible fates.
The need for black soulgems is probably created by the god of Worms.

Yes...but then you still have the problem of the King of Worms that we fight in Oblivion being considerably less intimidating than the King of Worms we meet in Daggerfall, pre Warp. Hence fan theories.

LennoxPoodle · June 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

LennoxPoodle wrote: »

The thing with the warp in the west is, that it's a dragon break. During such an event time shatters, creating multiple timelines which recombine at its end. So from one possible outcome we get Mannimarco the god of worms, whilst from the others the Mannimarco the KING of worms enters the merged timeline. So both are Mannimarco, just split according to his possible fates.
The need for black soulgems is probably created by the god of Worms.

Yes...but then you still have the problem of the King of Worms that we fight in Oblivion being considerably less intimidating than the King of Worms we meet in Daggerfall, pre Warp. Hence fan theories.

Maybe the sum of all the outcomes of the warp in which Mannimarco doesn't become a god is so much against his favor that he emerged significantly weakened? Or it's just a difference in depiction for the sake of gameplay.

mb10 · June 2019

I’ve seen theories that the guyin oblivion is an imposter

Bruccius · June 2019

Sand_Traven wrote: »

I have a question regarding the bone-botherer himself, Mannimarco. Apologies are sought for any spoilers for games in TES.

I have never played TES 2: Daggerfall having come to the series with Oblivion, and having played only Morrowind, Skyrim, TESO and Legends since then. Am I right in thinking Mannimarco is supposed to have ascended to divinity as the god of worms as a result of the dramatic finale to Daggerfall, the Warp in the West? If so, I have questions.

Firstly, would he be Aedra or Daedra? Neither? Both? Would being an elf automatically make him Aedra?

Secondly, if Mannimarco becomes a god, then who is the absolute melt I killed at the end of Oblivion's Mages Guild questline? Because no way was that the Mannimarco in TESO, and definitely not the same elf who ascended to godhood.

Thirdly, which ties into the second question, did we have black soul gems before Mannimarco became the god of worms? In Oblivion I understood the "necromancer's moon" to be a phenomenon caused by the god of worms (which, again, causes me to question who on earth I'm supposed to have killed at the end of the questline). I seem to remember reading a book somewhere about different coloured souls and the creation of the gems to carry them, but in ESO I can absorb the souls of dremora - who are supposed to have black souls, as I recall - in ordinary soul gems. But in Oblivion and Skyrim I need black soul gems. Can anyone explain this?

1. I'd argue it makes him a deity like Talos. Neither Aedra nor Daedra, but something different.
2. Because of Daggerfall's Dragon Break ending making all of the outcomes canon, my personal headcanon is that Mannimarco also split into two. His mortal vessel you kill in TES IV, and his godly version which became the god of Necromancers.
3. I can't recall Black Soul gems being a thing before TES IV, so I think it's directly related to Mannimarco.

I also think the reason ESO permits any soul to be used is a gameplay thing. Soul gems got a major overhaul back in the day. I don't know if humanoid souls always were able to be trapped, as I never got that for into the game before the overhaul took place.