Premades in BGs

jaws343 · April 2019

We've long surpased the point where we should just tolerate premades in the BG queue with everyone else. The power imbalance between premade groups, built to synergize with one another and make up for each others weaknesses, and solo grouped players is outrageous and uncompetitive.

Tonight I participated in the single worst BG round I have ever seen. Where a 4 man team was nearly unkillable and only other coordinated teams would have stood a chance.

This needs to change. Solo players need their own queue. Or 4 man premades need to be elliminated from BGs and 2 mans should be the max for queues.

There is zero fun being farmed for 10 minutes. And there is zero competition in it.

For the last 2 years we have been saying this is a problem. And instead of a fix or an attempt at a solution we get faction locking in cyrodil.

Unless we are considering a team k/d of 101/18 in crazy king healthy gameplay.

LordTareq · April 2019

While I agree, such scores do not always indicate a premade. Today I was in a match and we dominated, best in our group had like 35 kills, rest including me around 20 kills, less than 5 deaths each. But we were just a random pug.
But separate queue’s need to happen.

jaws343 · April 2019

I agree that can be the case. In fact I had a solid group like that yesterday. In this instance they were coordinating dawnbreaker dumps and they werent even playing the objectives they would kill us on a flag and then move on before taking it. They only won because time ran out and noone could stay alive long enough to take enough flags.

ApostateHobo · April 2019

jaws343 wrote: »

I agree that can be the case. In fact I had a solid group like that yesterday. In this instance they were coordinating dawnbreaker dumps and they werent even playing the objectives they would kill us on a flag and then move on before taking it. They only won because time ran out and noone could stay alive long enough to take enough flags.

I've encountered a group that does that several times. It's annoying as hell, but if it's anything other than deathmatch they usually lose. Played against them in a capture the relic before, and all they did was hold a teams relic to lure players into getting farmed. Don't understand why they don't just play deathmatch if that's all they're gonna do.

Weesacs · April 2019

OP I feel the same as you mate. Also the lack of feedback from ZOS on the matter is actually quite rude considering the amount of negatively surrounding the issue. I feel the only way they will listen is if there is a platform wide boycott of BGs ... but then that wont happen so we are stuck with this until it changes which, as BGs don't make them any money then there won't be much focus put on them rectifying the issue I'm afraid (unlike the crown store).

All they need to do is create separate queues and provide some incentives for people to create teams. A couple of examples include: Skins, titles and loot specifically for premade teams only and also premade leaderboards so they can show off their epeens.

bigelle.x3_ESO · April 2019

No one's unbeatable

jcm2606 · April 2019

Weesacs wrote: »

OP I feel the same as you mate. Also the lack of feedback from ZOS on the matter is actually quite rude considering the amount of negatively surrounding the issue. I feel the only way they will listen is if there is a platform wide boycott of BGs ... but then that wont happen so we are stuck with this until it changes which, as BGs don't make them any money then there won't be much focus put on them rectifying the issue I'm afraid (unlike the crown store).

All they need to do is create separate queues and provide some incentives for people to create teams. A couple of examples include: Skins, titles and loot specifically for premade teams only and also premade leaderboards so they can show off their epeens.

That boycott is going to happen by itself, sooner or later, if Zenimax doesn't address BGs soon. At this point I'm completely done with Battlegrounds, and quite frankly ESO in general until these things are addressed.

Premades need to be managed separately to solo queues (this whole problem is due to the fact that premades just result in the MMR of the group being inflated, so a premade can still match with a solo queue if the MMR's are similar enough), MMR needs to be removed completely until a better alternative is available, *** bugged matches need to be addressed (literally logged on today to do a BG or two before I went and wished my grandmother a happy Easter, the first BG I queued up for on my stamblade, bugged, right out of the gate).

Until the above happens, until the issue with Akamai is sorted, I'm not giving Zenimax any more money, and quite frankly I might not even continue playing the game, because PVP is the only thing left that interests me. I can't do Cyrodiil because my internet hates it, Imperial City is dead, so that leaves Battlegrounds, and frankly, I'd rather go play another game than sit through your average BG experience.

Iskiab · April 2019

jaws343 wrote: »

We've long surpased the point where we should just tolerate premades in the BG queue with everyone else. The power imbalance between premade groups, built to synergize with one another and make up for each others weaknesses, and solo grouped players is outrageous and uncompetitive.

Tonight I participated in the single worst BG round I have ever seen. Where a 4 man team was nearly unkillable and only other coordinated teams would have stood a chance.

This needs to change. Solo players need their own queue. Or 4 man premades need to be elliminated from BGs and 2 mans should be the max for queues.

There is zero fun being farmed for 10 minutes. And there is zero competition in it.

For the last 2 years we have been saying this is a problem. And instead of a fix or an attempt at a solution we get faction locking in cyrodil.

Unless we are considering a team k/d of 101/18 in crazy king healthy gameplay.

How is that even possible? Wouldn’t the game end before 50 killing blows due to a team hitting 500 points?

Looking at the overall kills/deaths it looks more like one good pvper in the starter BG tier (probably a sorc) rather then a premade.

jaws343 · April 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

We've long surpased the point where we should just tolerate premades in the BG queue with everyone else. The power imbalance between premade groups, built to synergize with one another and make up for each others weaknesses, and solo grouped players is outrageous and uncompetitive.

Tonight I participated in the single worst BG round I have ever seen. Where a 4 man team was nearly unkillable and only other coordinated teams would have stood a chance.

This needs to change. Solo players need their own queue. Or 4 man premades need to be elliminated from BGs and 2 mans should be the max for queues.

There is zero fun being farmed for 10 minutes. And there is zero competition in it.

For the last 2 years we have been saying this is a problem. And instead of a fix or an attempt at a solution we get faction locking in cyrodil.

Unless we are considering a team k/d of 101/18 in crazy king healthy gameplay.

How is that even possible? Wouldn’t the game end before 50 killing blows due to a team hitting 500 points?

Looking at the overall kills/deaths it looks more like one good pvper in the starter BG tier (probably a sorc) rather then a premade.

This was the over 50 campaign. Final score was 488 to 440 to 176. It was a crazy king match and the dominating team wasn't playing the objectives. So they never reached the 500 score before the timer ran out. And because it was crazy kind it kept forcing us together and no one could stand on the flags long enough to end the match. Had to get farmed for 15 full minutes in order to avoid the ridiculous deserter penalty.

I believe the kill leader was a stam sorc who was just spamming dawnbreaker and steel tornado.

ChunkyCat · April 2019

lol slaughtered

wheem_ESO · April 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

We've long surpased the point where we should just tolerate premades in the BG queue with everyone else. The power imbalance between premade groups, built to synergize with one another and make up for each others weaknesses, and solo grouped players is outrageous and uncompetitive.

Tonight I participated in the single worst BG round I have ever seen. Where a 4 man team was nearly unkillable and only other coordinated teams would have stood a chance.

This needs to change. Solo players need their own queue. Or 4 man premades need to be elliminated from BGs and 2 mans should be the max for queues.

There is zero fun being farmed for 10 minutes. And there is zero competition in it.

For the last 2 years we have been saying this is a problem. And instead of a fix or an attempt at a solution we get faction locking in cyrodil.

Unless we are considering a team k/d of 101/18 in crazy king healthy gameplay.

How is that even possible? Wouldn’t the game end before 50 killing blows due to a team hitting 500 points?

Looking at the overall kills/deaths it looks more like one good pvper in the starter BG tier (probably a sorc) rather then a premade.

First thing I thought was, "Stam Sorc, maybe" - then the OP confirmed my suspicions. I've seen numerous "brag shots" like that before, and every single time it has been on a Stamina build.

bigelle.x3_ESO · April 2019

jaws343 wrote: »

I believe the kill leader was a stam sorc who was just spamming dawnbreaker and steel tornado.

Surely you could've killed someone using only executes and ults. Even if you couldnt, not playing objectives on an objective map leads to a very long game. Surely there was enough time to coordinate the team. Just one sentence, "hey friend let's try and ult this guy at the same time," would've done it. No one's unbeatable.

Iskiab · April 2019

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

We've long surpased the point where we should just tolerate premades in the BG queue with everyone else. The power imbalance between premade groups, built to synergize with one another and make up for each others weaknesses, and solo grouped players is outrageous and uncompetitive.

Tonight I participated in the single worst BG round I have ever seen. Where a 4 man team was nearly unkillable and only other coordinated teams would have stood a chance.

This needs to change. Solo players need their own queue. Or 4 man premades need to be elliminated from BGs and 2 mans should be the max for queues.

There is zero fun being farmed for 10 minutes. And there is zero competition in it.

For the last 2 years we have been saying this is a problem. And instead of a fix or an attempt at a solution we get faction locking in cyrodil.

Unless we are considering a team k/d of 101/18 in crazy king healthy gameplay.

How is that even possible? Wouldn’t the game end before 50 killing blows due to a team hitting 500 points?

Looking at the overall kills/deaths it looks more like one good pvper in the starter BG tier (probably a sorc) rather then a premade.

First thing I thought was, "Stam Sorc, maybe" - then the OP confirmed my suspicions. I've seen numerous "brag shots" like that before, and every single time it has been on a Stamina build.

You mean stamwarden. No idea why people don’t talk about that class a lot, it’s the strongest stamina class. Instead it’s NB this, NB that.

I’m thinking it’s because people play in a pvp guild that doesn’t allow Stamblades (ours doesn’t) and all their guildies play Stamwardens. Stamblades are an allowable cheap shot.

Yea Stamblades are OP, that’s probably where that one death came from on the 50 kills guy.

I recently did a BG against a ‘NB’ premade. Poor guys ended up with 40 points in a deathmatch.

wheem_ESO · April 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

We've long surpased the point where we should just tolerate premades in the BG queue with everyone else. The power imbalance between premade groups, built to synergize with one another and make up for each others weaknesses, and solo grouped players is outrageous and uncompetitive.

Tonight I participated in the single worst BG round I have ever seen. Where a 4 man team was nearly unkillable and only other coordinated teams would have stood a chance.

This needs to change. Solo players need their own queue. Or 4 man premades need to be elliminated from BGs and 2 mans should be the max for queues.

There is zero fun being farmed for 10 minutes. And there is zero competition in it.

For the last 2 years we have been saying this is a problem. And instead of a fix or an attempt at a solution we get faction locking in cyrodil.

Unless we are considering a team k/d of 101/18 in crazy king healthy gameplay.

How is that even possible? Wouldn’t the game end before 50 killing blows due to a team hitting 500 points?

Looking at the overall kills/deaths it looks more like one good pvper in the starter BG tier (probably a sorc) rather then a premade.

First thing I thought was, "Stam Sorc, maybe" - then the OP confirmed my suspicions. I've seen numerous "brag shots" like that before, and every single time it has been on a Stamina build.

You mean stamwarden. No idea why people don’t talk about that class a lot, it’s the strongest stamina class. Instead it’s NB this, NB that.

I’m thinking it’s because people play in a pvp guild that doesn’t allow Stamblades (ours doesn’t) and all their guildies play Stamwardens. Stamblades are an allowable cheap shot.

Yea Stamblades are OP, that’s probably where that one death came from on the 50 kills guy.

I recently did a BG against a ‘NB’ premade. Poor guys ended up with 40 points in a deathmatch.

No, I don't mean Stam Warden, I mean Stam anything. The reason I thought Stam Sorc was because you specifically mentioned the Sorcerer class. And while Mag Sorc is indeed strong, and is generally speaking the best offensive Magicka class, I've yet to see one get "those" types of screenshots, with 40+ killing blows and 0 deaths (or sometimes just a couple). Magicka can't steamroll in with a Dawnbreaker and Spin-to-Win to kill entire groups of not-so-great players.

PhoenixGrey · April 2019

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Magicka can't steamroll in with a Dawnbreaker and Spin-to-Win to kill entire groups of not-so-great players.

The old magden was capable of it at a certain point and I enjoyed it more than sorc. Its really funny that people called it OP when any stam spec was capable of the same

But right now the imbalance between stam and mag classes not sorc is almost bordering at a point of certain classes being free AP.

bigelle.x3_ESO · April 2019

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

But right now the imbalance between stam and mag classes not sorc is almost bordering at a point of certain classes being free AP.

What are you even talking about

wheem_ESO · April 2019

bigelle.x3_ESO wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

But right now the imbalance between stam and mag classes not sorc is almost bordering at a point of certain classes being free AP.

What are you even talking about

He's preaching truth. In an offensive role, Stamina builds have been superior to Magicka builds since Morrowind's release, if not before (I didn't play for quite some time there, and only came back because of BGs). Magicka Sorcerer may be able to hang with Stam decently well, but even then their margin for error is usually a lot lower. And the more coordinated teams get, the bigger the gap between Stam and Mag becomes.

oxygen_thief · April 2019

bigelle.x3_ESO wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I believe the kill leader was a stam sorc who was just spamming dawnbreaker and steel tornado.

Surely you could've killed someone using only executes and ults. Even if you couldnt, not playing objectives on an objective map leads to a very long game. Surely there was enough time to coordinate the team. Just one sentence, "hey friend let's try and ult this guy at the same time," would've done it. No one's unbeatable.

have you ever played in a pug bgs? ppl cant even stay close to each other. nobody will listen to you because they think they are good and can handle alone.

jaws343 · April 2019

oxygen_thief wrote: »

bigelle.x3_ESO wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I believe the kill leader was a stam sorc who was just spamming dawnbreaker and steel tornado.

Surely you could've killed someone using only executes and ults. Even if you couldnt, not playing objectives on an objective map leads to a very long game. Surely there was enough time to coordinate the team. Just one sentence, "hey friend let's try and ult this guy at the same time," would've done it. No one's unbeatable.

have you ever played in a pug bgs? ppl cant even stay close to each other. nobody will listen to you because they think they are good and can handle alone.

Not only that but the entire team was coordinating burst and cross healing. One guy had 50 kills but the other 3 team members had another 50 combined kills. This was crazy king, not a death match. The fight literally timed out. And it isn't like they had zero deaths. But the sheer overwhelming capability a premade brings to a bg match is absurd.

bigelle.x3_ESO · April 2019

oxygen_thief wrote: »

bigelle.x3_ESO wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I believe the kill leader was a stam sorc who was just spamming dawnbreaker and steel tornado.

Surely you could've killed someone using only executes and ults. Even if you couldnt, not playing objectives on an objective map leads to a very long game. Surely there was enough time to coordinate the team. Just one sentence, "hey friend let's try and ult this guy at the same time," would've done it. No one's unbeatable.

have you ever played in a pug bgs? ppl cant even stay close to each other. nobody will listen to you because they think they are good and can handle alone.

Yes. And that's not what happens. Maybe there's just a mmr gap.

jaws343 wrote: »

Not only that but the entire team was coordinating burst and cross healing. One guy had 50 kills but the other 3 team members had another 50 combined kills. This was crazy king, not a death match. The fight literally timed out. And it isn't like they had zero deaths. But the sheer overwhelming capability a premade brings to a bg match is absurd.

I have a feeling this is a low mmr game. I had a 30-2 game once solo queuing and got whispers that I am a bad player and should stop fighting pugs with premades when really nobody knew how to defend themselves. No way good players can lose to a guy 50-1 lol I'm sorry.

bigelle.x3_ESO · April 2019

wheem_ESO wrote: »

He's preaching truth. In an offensive role, Stamina builds have been superior to Magicka builds since Morrowind's release, if not before (I didn't play for quite some time there, and only came back because of BGs). Magicka Sorcerer may be able to hang with Stam decently well, but even then their margin for error is usually a lot lower. And the more coordinated teams get, the bigger the gap between Stam and Mag becomes.

What are you even talking about?

ChunkyCat · April 2019

Either console players straight suck, or thats a low MMR-sub level 50 match up.

Choose your own adventure.

PhoenixGrey · April 2019

bigelle.x3_ESO wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

But right now the imbalance between stam and mag classes not sorc is almost bordering at a point of certain classes being free AP.

What are you even talking about

You obviously don't PVP at a competitive level

bigelle.x3_ESO · April 2019

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

bigelle.x3_ESO wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

But right now the imbalance between stam and mag classes not sorc is almost bordering at a point of certain classes being free AP.

What are you even talking about

You obviously don't PVP at a competitive level

You obviously don't PVP at a competitive level. Most mag classes are fine. Free AP is the biggest overexaggeration I've heard all day.

PhoenixGrey · April 2019

bigelle.x3_ESO wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

bigelle.x3_ESO wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

But right now the imbalance between stam and mag classes not sorc is almost bordering at a point of certain classes being free AP.

What are you even talking about

You obviously don't PVP at a competitive level

You obviously don't PVP at a competitive level. Most mag classes are fine. Free AP is the biggest overexaggeration I've heard all day.

Apart from sorc which mag class can you solo pvp on.

I also call *** on the whole magicka offers utility argument. It's just an excuse to not buff garbage classes

mursie · April 2019

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Apart from sorc which mag class can you solo pvp on.

I also call *** on the whole magicka offers utility argument. It's just an excuse to not buff garbage classes

I think this is an exaggeration.

BG class rank imo:

1. Magsorc
2. Magwarden
3. StamWarden
4. StamSorc
5. StamDK MagDK
6. Stamplar Magplar
7. Magblade Stamblade

Considering the top 2 classes in BG's at the moment are mag variants.. I think mag is doing ok.

The only issue with magicka in no-cp is a 15K max defensive pool when stam variants have a 30K defensive pool. Considering you can allocate resources at your discretion (ie dont attack when you need to defend/dodge/block), the stam variants have an easier time playing defense and countering. That said, streak, mist form, and natures embrace are incredible magicka variant defensive tools (wings and shimmering as well) giving magicka some relief.

PhoenixGrey · April 2019

mursie wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Apart from sorc which mag class can you solo pvp on.

I also call *** on the whole magicka offers utility argument. It's just an excuse to not buff garbage classes

I think this is an exaggeration.

BG class rank imo:

1. Magsorc
2. Magwarden
3. StamWarden
4. StamSorc
5. StamDK MagDK
6. Stamplar Magplar
7. Magblade Stamblade

Considering the top 2 classes in BG's at the moment are mag variants.. I think mag is doing ok.

The only issue with magicka in no-cp is a 15K max defensive pool when stam variants have a 30K defensive pool. Considering you can allocate resources at your discretion (ie dont attack when you need to defend/dodge/block), the stam variants have an easier time playing defense and countering. That said, streak, mist form, and natures embrace are incredible magicka variant defensive tools (wings and shimmering as well) giving magicka some relief.

I dont like ranking classes, the reason being magwarden and most mag specs needs a team to play around it especially in high MMR bg dm. Its usually gg when your team ain't good enough.

My basis of judging a class is usually when the odds are stacked against it. Does the class have necessary tools to succeed on it's own or atleast be competent ?

Magden used to have it at some point. Birds were a good execute. Stun on fissure. I know mist form used to be better back in the day. The latest nerf being shalk is block able and it never got the damage buff.

Iskiab · April 2019

mursie wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Apart from sorc which mag class can you solo pvp on.

I also call *** on the whole magicka offers utility argument. It's just an excuse to not buff garbage classes

I think this is an exaggeration.

BG class rank imo:

1. Magsorc
2. Magwarden
3. StamWarden
4. StamSorc
5. StamDK MagDK
6. Stamplar Magplar
7. Magblade Stamblade

Considering the top 2 classes in BG's at the moment are mag variants.. I think mag is doing ok.

The only issue with magicka in no-cp is a 15K max defensive pool when stam variants have a 30K defensive pool. Considering you can allocate resources at your discretion (ie dont attack when you need to defend/dodge/block), the stam variants have an easier time playing defense and countering. That said, streak, mist form, and natures embrace are incredible magicka variant defensive tools (wings and shimmering as well) giving magicka some relief.

I’d somewhat agree. My list would go:

1. Stamwarden
2. Magsorc
3. DKs
4. Magwarden
5. Stamsorc
6. Templars
7. Nightblades

Though Nightblades I’d say are tied with magwarden if they’re healing.

About solo performance, meaningless in a group context, so it only matters in new player BGs.

Of course player matters more then the class though except for NBs. I’ve never seen a NB go on a 20-1 tear against experienced opponents. Even with a healer they struggle to get higher than 4:1 kvd.

Royalthought · April 2019

Alot of talk about stam vs mag.

In group play AoE is the real killer. Doesnt matter if its mag or stam.

wheem_ESO · April 2019

I'd like to know who these oh-so-amazing Magicka Wardens are that seem to have convinced you guys of the class' prowess in BGs, and make sure we're not talking about dedicated healers here. Do people just not know that Permafrost is blockable, if you're unable to avoid it all together? It's extremely common for me to eat more damage from just the up-front burst on a Dawnbreaker than I do over an entire 8 second duration of Permafrost. And come next patch, you'll be able to block the damage on the Shalks as well, if you're not able to make them miss.

Securing kills in a group environment as a Magicka Warden is mostly a matter of luck; I went 0-0-13 in one low-kills Deathmatch a while back when I had a solid healer + 2 weak DPS on my team. Didn't matter how well I did or didn't do in a fight, I'd hear a nice little spinny-spin-spin and get an, "Enemy Stole the Kill" message. I would have been much better off on literally any Stamina build (assuming, of course, that I was actually practiced at the class first).

A Magicka Warden can be solid in an organized group - as essentially anything other than a Stamblade can be - but in a purely offensive role I still wouldn't rate it that highly. Using AOE and proc sets to cheese up 2m+ damage on the scoreboard doesn't mean you were more effective than the Stam build that did 800k but achieved a lot more actual success via burst and executes.

Iskiab · April 2019

Yea, thinking about it maybe you’re right @wheem_ESO . I should amend my list and move DKs higher. Stamsorcs are harder to rank, they aren’t very common. I saw one really good one go 22-1 (or something like that) on my team, but with so few how do you differentiate the player from the class?

Templars I’ve seen do okay but I absolutely hate mist form so have to put them lower. Personal pet peeve because I always waste my heals trying to heal the half health mist form templar. It’s always them who use it too.