well, i guess us magdens just got hit hard again.

Runefang wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

well, i guess us magdens just got hit hard again.

Even worse, we were just ignored?

we weren't ignored. just kicked in the balls again

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

There will be second tank as necromancer for sure, so warden healers may return in slot of warden previously used by tanks.

What's more interesting is that no reaction to permafrost and ice wall and overall snare nerf. I mean whole cancerous widely used play-style will be rather easily counter-played now.

it was a fair nerf. the snares were too much. but we didn't get compensation for such a loss.

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

well, i guess us magdens just got hit hard again.

Even worse, we were just ignored?

Surely you guys aren't surprised by this are you?

i expected nothing but was still disappointed lol

I would like to see the Warden's Animal Companion skill line 1) feel better to use, and 2) play more like the user actually has animal companions. I propose a mostly rearranged skill line that looks like the following:

Step 1 - Move the minor berserk passive to the bear ultimate. If you are going to force us to double-slot an ultimate, then at least give us a little more value there. The re-summoning morph, in particular, is pretty pathetic now that pets can't be killed.

Step 2 - Move the sustain from netch to falcon's swiftness. Tanks would love to have the utility of extra speed while maintaining the sustain that they currently get from netch (without the need to slot two skills).

Step 3 - Replace netch with a permanent wolf summon that provides Major Brutality/Major Sorcery for being slotted. This move makes the skill line feel more like the player actually has animal companions, and offers a stamina option for those who like using pets.

I'm just going to repost a huge comment i wrote in the class feedback pts channel. @Ahala you may want to post yours too.

---

a bunch of this stuff has been brought up in the past by not only us, but the class representitives too, partly. however, i'll write it again because not really much has changed for the better of Magden.

Are there any changes you feel are against the spirit of the class?

Yes. i think there are many changes that were made that are against the spirit of the class. And i will list them.

First. Arctic Blast was a skill that a lot of people enjoyed. it did frost damage and was very flavourful as a tank heal. it was amazing at proccing chilled. however this skill was destroyed in murkmire to be given an absolutely shoddy stun that deals no damage, had a slower projectile speed than destro reach, was blockable and dodgeable and heals close to nothing all with an expensive cost. this patch, it heals 1% more every tick and is as fast as destro reach. Still horrible and expensive. it should do a really good frost DoT or something for us to even consider using it over shock clench and flame reach. how does it hit someone with enough force to knock someone down, but deal no damage? Side note. Our compensation for the loss of arctic blast is a 5 piece set? We know it is our compensation as it has the same chilled proc chance every 2 seconds, but this time it's actually listed on the set. This set was a kick in the groin.

Second. Falcon's Swiftness was for the most part, a really great skill pre-murkmire. when it was a buff skill, it gave us minor berserk on both of our bars and a good duration on major expedition and major endurance. we did have issues with buffs, don't get me wrong but although i was sad to see that i could only get the buff on one bar, however, i was devastated that warden's signature speed was slashed to normal levels with everyone else's major expedition when other classes have gap closers to enemies. Magicka Warden was hit the worst by these changes in pvp. this patch, we got major endurance removed and duration increased to 6 seconds. while probably better than last patch it's not enough still and not worth using anymore compared to race against time. People will just drop this skill all together for race against time. it still needs to be worth casting.

Third. Advanced species passive. this skill got a 1% buff. This is a lot when you're using a lot of animal companions skills. and that's the problem. Because advanced species is now like this, it will feel punishing to use other DPS damage skills in the future if we get them. For now, it can stay. But if we get the new DPS skills we need, it needs to be reverted back to 2% to make it fair for not only us, but other classes too.

Are you able to weave abilities better or worse in this Update?

I don't think this is related to the new changes. Or even the game itself, however, every update my already bad Australian ping has gotten worse. In the next year it might reach 400. Because of this issue it gets harder and harder to use my skills.

Do you feel your class is stronger, weaker, or relatively the same with the standardization pass on class abilities?

Absolutely weaker. Magden will be in the worse state it has EVER been in and it's only played in part by the standardised snare nerf across the board. However, that is absolutely a nerf that it deserved. But we just got no worthy compensation.

(Magden did rely too heavily on Deep Fissure and Sleet Storm's Snare. these 2 skills now not only have counterplay, but snares are easier to fight against across the board! i was very happy to see this change. but what i was not happy to see is that we were not given anything to show for it. which means we got nerfed. Crystallised slab was it for buffs. basically. which is potentially usable now, even though the other morph gives major heroism. bird of prey is now outclassed.)

Do you feel we addressed abilities that in the past year have been over or under performing?

Overperforming:

• Sleet Storm and it's Morphs:
  YES! ABSOLUTELY! this was the right nerf to give to the skill. A+! i know a lot of my other words have been negative, but this snare was so oppressive for other people playing against us. now they also have a really good way to deal with snares and immobilises too. awesome work!
  
• Deep Fissure:
  this skill was a massive burst tool. it was indirectly and directly nerfed this patch, with it now being blockable. which will help people against Stamden's big damage burst. it was easily enabled by Sleet Storm's huge snare, since no-one could get away while also not being able to move, it allowed for easy kills, especially since they couldn't block the burst. not anymore. thank f for that. we can perhaps focus on skilled gameplay now.

Underperforming:

• Arctic Blast: no. no. no. this skill is not in a good state at all, STILL! I would wager that it's a lot worse now than it ever was.
  
• Falcon's swiftness and morphs: no. this skill has not been handled at all well recently. it's now overshadowed by race against time, and Deceptive predator is still pretty bad.
  
  Falcons, for example could have ALSO been given immunity to snares and immobilisations by 2 seconds on the base skill and morphs to make it worth slotting and casting again. it's not as much as race against time, but it reflects wardens fast nature, not to mention that they would also lose minor force and 2 seconds of precious immunity. Deceptive would also gain 4 more seconds of expedition duration from 6 to 10. This would then also show morphs that are good choices rather than just "i'll use Bird of Prey" all of the time.
  
• Nature's Grasp: thank you for allowing bear to be targeted with this again. however bursting vines STILL doesn't heal the caster.
  
• Crystallised Slab: I speak about this skill more in depth below in General feedback. but generally, while it's better now, it probably should still receive a full rework to make Magden have more controllable damage skills to work with. it also means that if they were using this new damage skill, they would lose a defensive tool and major heroism, so it would really have to be worth it.
  
• Winter's Revenge: I've reported a bug on this skill, only for said bug to be fixed soon after, so i don't know if you guys were already going to fix it. the skill is pretty boring and with the release of necromancer's boneyard, it really puts winter's revenge to absolute shame with it's interesting and helpful effects. it's not a bad skill. but it's like a beat up station wagon compared to all the bells and whistles on the new Ferrari that is boneyard.
  
• Magic Damage skills: Screaming Cliff Racer still no longer lines up with deep fissure burst. and not only that, but the morph effect still does not work on the class. Deep Fissure limits the class to a 12 meter range. beyond that, it becomes hard to hit Deep Fissure. meaning that the morph effect to try and put it in ranged is bizarre and doesn't fit on the class. Swarm is really boring and the most generic DoT in the game. Fetcher Infection is an inconsistent "why?" morph that everyone picks because it's better, and growing swarm is too situational to use. If growing swarm was instead the class stun, it would have helped tremendously in pvp, on top of it actually making sense. A swarm of bugs attacking you would make you either flinch or run away in fear. Instead arctic blast was destroyed, when people used the skill to proc chilled.
  
• Group Utility: We still don't have enough of it on Magden or on Stamden. Stamden is better at it in the meantime as they use green lotus more than we use lotus blossom. So Magden not only does less dps, but has slightly less group utility to bring to the table. Both can offer ranged slayer.
  

Do you have any other general feedback?

Inconsistency in themes:
Magicka Warden is a very strange class when it comes to themes. it has 2 main themes of nature and ice. which already feels a tiny bit weird, but it's made worse by the types of animals showcased in the abilities. these are animals from Vvardenfell. this can be very confusing to people who are new to the elder scrolls. as they would see these very alien creatures and be a little confused. it's pretty hard to relate to animals that we haven't grown up with. everyone knows a bear. which is why a lot of people like it. but then we get to normal damage skills, which would be seen as: a pterodactyl, a couple of big beetles, a swarm of flies and a weird floating jellyfish squid. these creatures are certainly unique for sure. but they absolutely don't fit with the bear, the likes of which i have never seen in Morrowind apart from other warden bears. but these Vvardenfell animals also are known to live in a highly volcanic area, devoid of snow. so why is it that wardens have frost magic? this seems hugely inconsistent and strange to many of us.

A way to remedy this issue, would be to release skins for all of the animal companions animals on the crown store which include a new icon and animation. I don't doubt if priced fairly, that these would be really popular if released in province sets. for example, and i'm going a bit crazy here, but for Skyrim you can replace Deep Fissure's shalks with ice wraiths. Netch with a Wisp, Screaming Cliff Racer with a Hawk and fetcher flies with Bees or even Torch Bugs! deep fissure could also be replaced with Crocodiles for black marsh or Dune Rippers for Hammerfell. everyone loves to customise their characters, and with warden it's especially important because of the specific animals chosen for the base skills.

• Frost DPS:
  So many people want this to be real. And while i respect that there isn't anywhere else to put a magicka tanking weapon, people don't want it as a tanking weapon because it conflicts with the past elder scrolls games. not to mention the lore of destruction magic. There should be a new magicka weapon in the future, and when that happens, frost should be turned back into DPS like it always has been. for now it is a quickly slapped together weapon at a cross roads where more people want it to deal damage than to tank with, as it already has damage skills in place that have little to no relevance to a tank.
  
  however you guys don't have to touch the frost staff yet. Winter's Embrace has a lot of underpowered and underused morphs while being on a class with a severe damage skill shortage and a bunch of people who were hungry for what was advertised in that trailer. a frost mage with animals. These are the morphs and passives that can be played around with and i will quickly explain why each skill is in need of a change. again.
  
  • Expansive Frost Cloak:
    28m range and a cost reduction is often times not good enough when shown ice fortress. which gives minor protection and it already has a big radius of 8 meters. you're not spamming the skill. so the cost reduction does not really help much. the skill may work well enough if it was to gain old arctic blast's AoE. That way it will proc chilled often and provide some flavour to the skill.
    
  • Arctic Blast: i've stated above as to why this skill is bad. On a Sidenote, Polar Wind could gain old arctic blast's AoE. That way it will proc chilled often and provide some flavour to the irritatingly boring skill.
    
  • Crystallised Slab (even after the buff.): this skill isn't too bad anymore and i always called it a knockoff version of DK wings, but it's now essentially just DK wings this patch. This skill is still outclassed by Shimmering Shield. it should instead be reworked completely to no longer have a damage shield, but to instead be something like a proc damage skill. that way you chose between defence and offence instead of defence and defence. warden needs more offensive capability and it's too reactionary and similar to DK wings now. i used to advocate exactly for the buff that was given here, but i had since changed my mind and thought the skill should be completely reworked into a controllable frost damage skill. see "Chilled and Warden" below.
    
  • Frozen Retreat:
    I and many others like the idea of this skill, but it does not work in practise. when an ally activates the synergy they are teleported to the tank.... who is in a middle of a group of enemies.... and the ally dies. no this skill is contradictory and not used hardly at all. after discussion with my fellow wardens, we believe that this skill should do around 60% more frost damage perhaps in an AoE, or with some given as a DoT, but no longer pull enemies. while also increasing the synergy pull's range in pvp as it doesn't scale with the increase. this would turn the skill into an effective DPS trap skill, used in PvP to help save allies from danger. when placed in a doorway, an ally can teleport to you and get away when an enemy would be hurt badly by stepping in it. it makes a lot more sense and gives Magden some more strategic skills to use in PvP. PLEASE NOTE. FROZEN GATE AND IT'S MORPHS ARE REFLECTABLE! there are still ways to reflect in the game. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/442140/turns-out-frozen-gate-can-be-reflected-video-proof
    
  • Chilled and Warden:
    Currently warden has a +200% chance to apply chilled to enemies on a bunch of skills that are either uncontrollable or AoEs. frozen retreat only hits a single target, arctic blast doesn't do damage any more, crystallised slab is reactionary and impaling and sleet storm are AoEs which benefit the least. There is also little reason for the damage dealer to use chilled in PvE. so perhaps this passive can be updated to make it so get minor force from applying chilled to enemies. when this happens, it frees up one of magden's DPS slots in PvE for future frost damage skills so they no longer have to keep a buff up. Currently, Dueling Magdens run Shadowrend to get their minor maim proc, even though the class has an increased chance to proc it. It's too inconsistent and Magdens would love a reason or 2 to proc it.
    

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

I would like to see the Warden's Animal Companion skill line 1) feel better to use, and 2) play more like the user actually has animal companions. I propose a mostly rearranged skill line that looks like the following:

Step 1 - Move the minor berserk passive to the bear ultimate. If you are going to force us to double-slot an ultimate, then at least give us a little more value there. The re-summoning morph, in particular, is pretty pathetic now that pets can't be killed.

Step 2 - Move the sustain from netch to falcon's swiftness. Tanks would love to have the utility of extra speed while maintaining the sustain that they currently get from netch (without the need to slot two skills).

Step 3 - Replace netch with a permanent wolf summon that provides Major Brutality/Major Sorcery for being slotted. This move makes the skill line feel more like the player actually has animal companions, and offers a stamina option for those who like using pets.

Some very interesting ideas here. I could get behind these

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

I would like to see the Warden's Animal Companion skill line 1) feel better to use, and 2) play more like the user actually has animal companions. I propose a mostly rearranged skill line that looks like the following:

Step 1 - Move the minor berserk passive to the bear ultimate. If you are going to force us to double-slot an ultimate, then at least give us a little more value there. The re-summoning morph, in particular, is pretty pathetic now that pets can't be killed.

Step 2 - Move the sustain from netch to falcon's swiftness. Tanks would love to have the utility of extra speed while maintaining the sustain that they currently get from netch (without the need to slot two skills).

Step 3 - Replace netch with a permanent wolf summon that provides Major Brutality/Major Sorcery for being slotted. This move makes the skill line feel more like the player actually has animal companions, and offers a stamina option for those who like using pets.

Some very interesting ideas here. I could get behind these

I don't want to have my back bar look the same as my front bar. Enough of this slotted ***.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

I would like to see the Warden's Animal Companion skill line 1) feel better to use, and 2) play more like the user actually has animal companions. I propose a mostly rearranged skill line that looks like the following:

Step 1 - Move the minor berserk passive to the bear ultimate. If you are going to force us to double-slot an ultimate, then at least give us a little more value there. The re-summoning morph, in particular, is pretty pathetic now that pets can't be killed.

Step 2 - Move the sustain from netch to falcon's swiftness. Tanks would love to have the utility of extra speed while maintaining the sustain that they currently get from netch (without the need to slot two skills).

Step 3 - Replace netch with a permanent wolf summon that provides Major Brutality/Major Sorcery for being slotted. This move makes the skill line feel more like the player actually has animal companions, and offers a stamina option for those who like using pets.

Some very interesting ideas here. I could get behind these

I don't want to have my back bar look the same as my front bar. Enough of this slotted ***.

Did you read this? He has elimate a whole double slotted skill.
Instead of:
Bearx2, FalconX2, and Netch = 5 Slots total for 1 DPS skills
Bearx2, Falconx1 and WolfX2 = 5 Slots total for 2 DPS Skills
or
for suport, Falconx1 for support with a second completly free Slot

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

I would like to see the Warden's Animal Companion skill line 1) feel better to use, and 2) play more like the user actually has animal companions. I propose a mostly rearranged skill line that looks like the following:

Step 1 - Move the minor berserk passive to the bear ultimate. If you are going to force us to double-slot an ultimate, then at least give us a little more value there. The re-summoning morph, in particular, is pretty pathetic now that pets can't be killed.

Step 2 - Move the sustain from netch to falcon's swiftness. Tanks would love to have the utility of extra speed while maintaining the sustain that they currently get from netch (without the need to slot two skills).

Step 3 - Replace netch with a permanent wolf summon that provides Major Brutality/Major Sorcery for being slotted. This move makes the skill line feel more like the player actually has animal companions, and offers a stamina option for those who like using pets.

Some very interesting ideas here. I could get behind these

I don't want to have my back bar look the same as my front bar. Enough of this slotted ***.

Did you read this? He has elimate a whole double slotted skill.
Instead of:
Bearx2, FalconX2, and Netch = 5 Slots total for 1 DPS skills
Bearx2, Falconx1 and WolfX2 = 5 Slots total for 2 DPS Skills
or
for suport, Falconx1 for support with a second completly free Slot

I don't waste my time double slotting bird of prey. And if we were to have reworks i don't want another skill to double slot. Hell no. Stop with all of this "while slotted" ***. ENOUGH. There is too much of it and we don't need any more.

Some things that could help magdens:

Eternal Guardian (mag version Bear) needs a better execute and/or get a 10% damage buff and needs to be single slotted especially since our morph is basically meaningless, Bird of Prey needs to be single slotted, fletcher infection needs to lose that double cast garbage, winters revenge needs to tick a little longer or deal more damage, cliff racer animation needs to be more forgiving at animation canceling, shalks need that stun back if they can now be blocked. Things like this could easily get magdens into the picture.

Wanna see more magdens in the picture for vet trials? Give the bear's caster a group buff, maybe minor berserk or a major berserk to the closest 3 allies for x seconds upon casting the ultimate if not those, then give the bear a different group buff to put out during the casting of the ultimate. Minor toughness is great if warden healer is spamming mushrooms or casting trees, neither of which are extremely popular to begin with.

Of course I'm mostly just talking to myself here, but maybe some day ZoS will open this thread and find something useful to help them. Lol.

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

And what do you put in the back bar BoP Slot? I mean thats where I currently run Trapping Webs currently, but I also still have vigor on my back bar and Trap on the front (because this damn illusive Tzogvin Bow)

I could understand a 10-20 second pet like Shade or Necro skills too.

Berserk on Bear would hurt the PvP builds. Then again, PvP just hurts in general. No need for Berserk when its all just Ball Group vs Ball Group/zerg. Until they bring back open field, I honestly dont care how good/*** any class is in PvP.
- BG's is just that, not open field, and repetitive AF

My backbar is winters, blockade, flex(shield or inner light), channeled acceleration and blue betty. There is no room for it.

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Some things that could help magdens:

Eternal Guardian (mag version Bear) needs a better execute and/or get a 10% damage buff and needs to be single slotted especially since our morph is basically meaningless, Bird of Prey needs to be single slotted, fletcher infection needs to lose that double cast garbage, winters revenge needs to tick a little longer or deal more damage, cliff racer animation needs to be more forgiving at animation canceling, shalks need that stun back if they can now be blocked. Things like this could easily get magdens into the picture.

Wanna see more magdens in the picture for vet trials? Give the bear's caster a group buff, maybe minor berserk or a major berserk to the closest 3 allies for x seconds upon casting the ultimate if not those, then give the bear a different group buff to put out during the casting of the ultimate. Minor toughness is great if warden healer is spamming mushrooms or casting trees, neither of which are extremely popular to begin with.

Of course I'm mostly just talking to myself here, but maybe some day ZoS will open this thread and find something useful to help them. Lol.

Yeah because I really want to use the bear anymore than I already dont.

SilverIce58 wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Some things that could help magdens:

Eternal Guardian (mag version Bear) needs a better execute and/or get a 10% damage buff and needs to be single slotted especially since our morph is basically meaningless, Bird of Prey needs to be single slotted, fletcher infection needs to lose that double cast garbage, winters revenge needs to tick a little longer or deal more damage, cliff racer animation needs to be more forgiving at animation canceling, shalks need that stun back if they can now be blocked. Things like this could easily get magdens into the picture.

Wanna see more magdens in the picture for vet trials? Give the bear's caster a group buff, maybe minor berserk or a major berserk to the closest 3 allies for x seconds upon casting the ultimate if not those, then give the bear a different group buff to put out during the casting of the ultimate. Minor toughness is great if warden healer is spamming mushrooms or casting trees, neither of which are extremely popular to begin with.

Of course I'm mostly just talking to myself here, but maybe some day ZoS will open this thread and find something useful to help them. Lol.

Yeah because I really want to use the bear anymore than I already dont.

I gave about four quick different ideas to improve the bear. The fourth suggestion about adding a group buff is only to shine light on people actually wanting magdens there. Generally speaking, a magblade with MA would still out perform a Magden with MA. Since we're already pigeonholed into running the bear due to the advanced species passive, might as well embrace it and call for a small damage buff to the eternal guardian morph, or a better type of execute on the bear, or let us single slot the bear so we can use a different ultimate some place else. These were just a few quick ideas, there's so many more that we all could think of.

At this point I'd be happy with any kind of damage buff to magden right now.

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Some things that could help magdens:

Eternal Guardian (mag version Bear) needs a better execute and/or get a 10% damage buff and needs to be single slotted especially since our morph is basically meaningless, Bird of Prey needs to be single slotted, fletcher infection needs to lose that double cast garbage, winters revenge needs to tick a little longer or deal more damage, cliff racer animation needs to be more forgiving at animation canceling, shalks need that stun back if they can now be blocked. Things like this could easily get magdens into the picture.

Wanna see more magdens in the picture for vet trials? Give the bear's caster a group buff, maybe minor berserk or a major berserk to the closest 3 allies for x seconds upon casting the ultimate if not those, then give the bear a different group buff to put out during the casting of the ultimate. Minor toughness is great if warden healer is spamming mushrooms or casting trees, neither of which are extremely popular to begin with.

Of course I'm mostly just talking to myself here, but maybe some day ZoS will open this thread and find something useful to help them. Lol.

Yeah because I really want to use the bear anymore than I already dont.

I gave about four quick different ideas to improve the bear. The fourth suggestion about adding a group buff is only to shine light on people actually wanting magdens there. Generally speaking, a magblade with MA would still out perform a Magden with MA. Since we're already pigeonholed into running the bear due to the advanced species passive, might as well embrace it and call for a small damage buff to the eternal guardian morph, or a better type of execute on the bear, or let us single slot the bear so we can use a different ultimate some place else. These were just a few quick ideas, there's so many more that we all could think of.

At this point I'd be happy with any kind of damage buff to magden right now.

Giving magdens a group buff special to them would just leave them in the same position they are now. They can give the health increase (10% health increase i think?) and trial groups only want one warden in the group, versus having most of their damage dealers being nightblades. And that warden is usually an off-tank or second healer. Just giving them a group buff would further cement trial groups only needing one warden.