It's time for a change

Kali_Despoine · March 2019

The only thing I hate is looking for that one piece of gear that has eluded you for months so you like *** it I'll buy it.
I find myself back grinding cause stupid travel here and there and there as well. Loading screeeeeeeeeennnnnsssssss. blahh to the system.

There are pros and cons to both systems
there are less cons to a world AH than guild bid

the type of play ZoS tried to make was one where a player couldn't just sit at one spot buying all the noobs under priced goods and flipping them.

So the IRL money making player base on ESO just bid on every trader they can.
Hell I have had 3 traders running at one time.
I have 3 personal guilds and one that has/had active players. Haven't played in some time.
I have disband guilds because my main guild lost a bid.
I have yet to buy or sell a trader to an outside guild but I have had offers.

Because of the way the traders were set up in the past I would get up early on reset monday and farm the traders.
Nobody on, buy cheap and flip
I would also find traders that had no bids and if need be pick one up and sell some stuff.
This changed when they changed the trader reset day and time.
more people on and also more empty [fake] stores as people try and do what I have done in the past and bid multiple traders with dummy guilds.

On console [PS4] they had syndicates of trading guilds back when I played the traders for gold. I'm sure they still have some kind of a forum today.

Anyone who likes they way it is now either just likes it cause it's different (props to that) or...
is part of some syndicate making gold off noob dues.

zyk · March 2019

trenchfeeder_ESO wrote: »

Yoguilds. The problem with this is that most guilds who have vendors in any kind of decent spot want dues, sales quotas or cuts and that's completely ridiculous. I'm not paying somebody else so I can sell stuff in any kind of timely and profitable fashion.

No, the problem is that you don't have a grasp of the system.

All the problems you describe would be worse with a an AH. Players would literally be monopolizing some markets while AFK with scripts and the value of most items would decrease to the point where they're worth far less than you could quickly sell them for now because scarcity would decrease.

If you don't want to learn the trading game, don't post on the forums and try to remove the best part of the game for many players. Sell your items for less than the MM/TTC averages and spend your time doing what you enjoy. Don't be OCD about getting the best price possible.

Ermiq · March 2019

ESO's trading system definitely needs some QoL adjustments for consumers. New guild trader UI in update 21 is a great addition, but it's not enough. People still have to go through all zones to find some uncommon stuff (e.g., looking for a gear set pieces or anything except crafting mats is still a nightmare). I've posted my suggestion on this issue two years ago: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/323659/suggestion-bulletin-board-instead-of-global-auction-house#latest
However, I believe the current system is a way better then global AH. Here are advantages guild trader system has compared to global AH:
- Gold sink. The most healthy thing for a game's economy. I can't recall any MMORPG I've played before which has no inflation. Sellers are getting gold from consumers and since there's no gold sink for sellers, they constantly getting their earnings higher. Along with usual earnings growth caused by in-game progress (higher level, more possibilities to get worthy stuff to sell), high level players start to sell stuff to each other on high price which don't actually affects them, but this increasingly affects newer players, and the longer game lives the more the gap between veterans' and new players' ability to pay. With the trader bids in ESO the more of excess gold the sellers have the more they spend to keep their trader kiosk, which turns into a self-regulating system where all excess gold goes out of the game.
- It's harder for big sellers to monopolize the market by buying every piece of certain items and selling them at higher price.
- Trading guilds have to sell stuff actively, so they could have stable incoming revenue to keep their trader kiosk, it makes them to incentivise their guild members to sell stuff actively, it makes sellers to keep prices not too high and it again makes the gap between veterans and new players smaller.
Though I partially understand OP's point of view (this system is not that good for those who only sell things once in a while), but I can't believe they really can't sell a couple of Tempering Alloys in a week to meet the guild's weekly sales requirements. I mean, you don't do that for the guild but you do that for yourself as well. If you want to be able to sell stuff in a convenient way (with no need to search for buyers manually) then you have to participate in the trading guild wars by doing sales and paying your little tax for the sake of the guild's well-being. If I had to choose between the current self-regulating system and AH's inflation and monopoly, I definitely would choose the current system. Yes, it has some flaws, but it also certainly has more positive effects to both sellers and buyers, both veterans and new players, then AH system.

GarnetFire17 · March 2019

redspecter23 wrote: »

A central auction house would do exactly what you want. It would remove the need for guild dues. It would remove the need to pay a weekly bid to hold the spot, by over 100 guilds. Where do you think all that gold would end up going? Unless another gold sink is added, it would lead to inflation quickly. Monopolies would still happen as rich players can quickly buy up every copy of an item and repost it for whatever they want. They could do it exponentially faster than they can currently. You might even see buy/sell AH bots that can do it instantly.

Would I personally care? Nope. I have tons of gold and tons of mats. I'd be fine. Anyone that relies on the current sales system in order to buy things might be very well screwed though.

Not to mention the lag of having everything in one menu. The game would crash or it would load forever. Not sure ZOS could even pull it off if they wanted to.

GarnetFire17 · March 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

To me the only difference between an AH and a bunch of different guild traders is 40 minutes of my time checking them all.

I honestly don’t get why people don’t want one. Is it an immersion thing? The bidding war for a trading spot sounds like a nightmare for the most part. Looking for an item is a tedious chore and waste of time especially if it’s just to find out no one is selling what you need. Maybe some people enjoy it but I’d rather be participating in content than looking through guild traders. People say it would mess with pricing but then people manipulate the market as is all the time. Ever notice when normally abundant items suddenly go missing and then reappear at a higher average price? It would be great to simple have an AH merchant in major cities.

Because there are people that enjoy the trade guild life. Organizing, coming up with fun strategies to raise funds, managing the roster like a team, the enjoyment you feel when the guild wins their kiosk after a week of hard work in recruiting and doing raffles and auctions and clerical stuff etc. Yes, it's fun. It's kind of like... a GAME I guess you would say... but this game involves using and learning how to use skills actually valuable to the real world like running your own business. Maybe that is not what you are interested in, so you just poo poo it when hundreds maybe thousands of people have put in a lot of time and effort over years.

So basically what you are suggesting is trying to put the tooth paste back in the tube as they say. It's way too late. And a central AH it's not as wanted as you think it is. Most are used to it. Getting rare and useful items easily by buying for gold is not good because it dumbs down the game experience and gives you no almost no interaction with the world an other players. It should be a pain to find items some times. That it makes it more fun after you actually do find what you want at some far away kiosk no one else thought to look.

ezio45 · March 2019

As an officer in a trading guild, nty, would put me out of a job.

Theres no problem with paying fees. Otherwise no guild could ever pay for a trader. If your that cheap sell in zone.

The amount of money fees have to be is the issue. There are guilds charging 25k a week and still can barely scrap by. Its a problem with ghost traders. Mournhold traders can afford the 24m a week because they sell stalls to honest traders for 5-14 mil each with those guilds having to charge more in fees. Mean while the main guild incharge of the ghost guilds have there gm just sitting back and pocketing whats ever left over from the stall sales and collecting fees and raffle money and auction money. Best part is the ghost guilds get to pocket all that and there guild is oblivious because all the legit guilds have to charge that much and bust there butts on raffles and auctions to be able to afford the the ghost guilds stall prices.

God I would love to be able to toss names around on this forum.

zyk · March 2019

Trading in ESO is composed of different types of gameplay. It's a game within itself and a part of the game a lot of players enjoy the most. Some of its gameplay is deeply social and probably some of the most interesting in ESO if you want to get into that. Or you can ignore it completely like I did and just earn a bunch of gold.

To those who don't want to get involved at all, I suggest finding a guild in a T3 hub like Vivec City on PC/NA. The requirements will be relatively low. Sell your items inexpensively, and they'll move quickly. Don't think of it as selling your items at a low price. what you're doing is passing the work on to another player. The deal hunter is rewarded for his efforts with a good price or the flipper is rewarded for his time when he sells it for a higher price.

High demand items will sell anywhere for market price.

Most established trade guilds have other perks such as guild houses that may have features like transmutation stations, attuned crafting stations, mundus stones, etc... It's really convenient to have easy access to things like that.

srfrogg23 · March 2019

ezio45 wrote: »

As an officer in a trading guild, nty, would put me out of a job.

Theres no problem with paying fees. Otherwise no guild could ever pay for a trader. If your that cheap sell in zone.

The amount of money fees have to be is the issue. There are guilds charging 25k a week and still can barely scrap by. Its a problem with ghost traders. Mournhold traders can afford the 24m a week because they sell stalls to honest traders for 5-14 mil each with those guilds having to charge more in fees. Mean while the main guild incharge of the ghost guilds have there gm just sitting back and pocketing whats ever left over from the stall sales and collecting fees and raffle money and auction money. Best part is the ghost guilds get to pocket all that and there guild is oblivious because all the legit guilds have to charge that much and bust there butts on raffles and auctions to be able to afford the the ghost guilds stall prices.

God I would love to be able to toss names around on this forum.

This, I will never understand. You basically have to play the game like a second job, toss millions of gold each week into the aether, and hope you're not being screwed over by the guild leader, all for providing the inconvenience of customers having to travel to an absurd number of vendors to avoid being ripped off.

Why do you enjoy this? Why defend it? It seems so absurd!

reurrab16_ESO · March 2019

Id like a better search system. Its too basic. I dont mind stopping by a guild vendor and having a look at what tehy have but DANG, can i find what I want easily? Noooooo

Ri_Khan · March 2019

I'm all for it being edited, added on to, reworked, overhauled, whatever. Obviously, I don't expect that to ever happen so I'll just continue to avoid using it. The guild trading system sucks. I have to deal with enough of this type of trash irl, I'm definitely not looking to be reminded of it while playing a video game.

Fluke.Slywalker · March 2019

I rather like the current system, I see the argument, I used the AH in Neverwinter and it seemed to work.

But here on ESO, I take my listing of items and the selling as a side-game. I'll do my writs each day and check my lisitng and sales, it's something else to manage and therefore a part of the game for me. I do a lot of writs, get a lot of surveys and therefore have & sell a lot of mats.

Looking for a specific item is, sure a painstaking effort - but I believe in the current patch they have altered the search options for the better., so that remains to be seen. (for me, as I'm on XB)

ezio45 · March 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

As an officer in a trading guild, nty, would put me out of a job.

Theres no problem with paying fees. Otherwise no guild could ever pay for a trader. If your that cheap sell in zone.

The amount of money fees have to be is the issue. There are guilds charging 25k a week and still can barely scrap by. Its a problem with ghost traders. Mournhold traders can afford the 24m a week because they sell stalls to honest traders for 5-14 mil each with those guilds having to charge more in fees. Mean while the main guild incharge of the ghost guilds have there gm just sitting back and pocketing whats ever left over from the stall sales and collecting fees and raffle money and auction money. Best part is the ghost guilds get to pocket all that and there guild is oblivious because all the legit guilds have to charge that much and bust there butts on raffles and auctions to be able to afford the the ghost guilds stall prices.

God I would love to be able to toss names around on this forum.

This, I will never understand. You basically have to play the game like a second job, toss millions of gold each week into the aether, and hope you're not being screwed over by the guild leader, all for providing the inconvenience of customers having to travel to an absurd number of vendors to avoid being ripped off.

Why do you enjoy this? Why defend it? It seems so absurd!

um because i like my trader guild, my gm is my best friends and i can see the gold and know shes not ripping us off.

i like out trader guild. its a good helpful community

Kulvar · March 2019

GW2 AH is the best one so far.

Ermiq · March 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

As an officer in a trading guild, nty, would put me out of a job.

Theres no problem with paying fees. Otherwise no guild could ever pay for a trader. If your that cheap sell in zone.

The amount of money fees have to be is the issue. There are guilds charging 25k a week and still can barely scrap by. Its a problem with ghost traders. Mournhold traders can afford the 24m a week because they sell stalls to honest traders for 5-14 mil each with those guilds having to charge more in fees. Mean while the main guild incharge of the ghost guilds have there gm just sitting back and pocketing whats ever left over from the stall sales and collecting fees and raffle money and auction money. Best part is the ghost guilds get to pocket all that and there guild is oblivious because all the legit guilds have to charge that much and bust there butts on raffles and auctions to be able to afford the the ghost guilds stall prices.

God I would love to be able to toss names around on this forum.

This, I will never understand. You basically have to play the game like a second job, toss millions of gold each week into the aether, and hope you're not being screwed over by the guild leader, all for providing the inconvenience of customers having to travel to an absurd number of vendors to avoid being ripped off.

Why do you enjoy this? Why defend it? It seems so absurd!

Maybe I just don't understand what you said exactly, but what "millions of gold tossed into an aether and a risk of being screwed by a guild leader" you're talking about? I think you just don't understand how exactly all this thing does work.

Guilds don't take 25K gold from you (at least, I've never heard of such a huge taxes). This numbers (depending on a guild it might be 5K, 20K, 75K sales per week required) is a required amount of sales you should do per week, i.e. it's what YOU have to EARN per week. And the guild takes only 3.5% off this. See, when you make a listing in a guild trader UI, it tells you how much of gold will be taken by the guild (7%) if you successfully sell the item (and then it is divided by half, 3.5% goes to the guild bank and 3.5% goes into an aether) and how much will be erased from the game right away (1%) when you put the item into the store.

To "toss millions of gold into an aether" you have to sell stuff that worth:
1 000 000 * 100 / (7 + 1) = 12.500 000 gold. Do you earn that much every week?

Or maybe you mean the whole guild that tosses these millions? Well, do you know that all AH based games doing the same thing? Every auction house has a tax, they all take some percent from your sales, sometimes the tax goes up to 20% in some games, but the average auction tax in MMORPGs is about 8-10% (and in ESO it's 8%).

Speaking about the risks. Yes, there is a possibility of being cheated by the guild leader. They might be making bids with 3 millions while the guild bank actually has 20 millions gold, yes. So, what do you suggest? AH? As I said, AH doesn't change anything for you, you still will pay the same tax, not to the guild but to the void. So, what's the point? For the sake of not being possibly cheated? Smells like a paranoid a bit. Moreover, this additional gold in the guild banks usually goes to the guild halls (transmutaion station, crafting stations, Mundus stones (earned by gold-to-crowns exchange) and so on), and it is kept as an insurance, just in case, so the guild could try to get better trader in the future or win the bid when another guild tries to get their trader so YOU could continue to earn money.

So, AH doesn't change a thing for guild members, the only thing it does is takes away a "Trading Guild Wars mini-game", adds inflation and monopoly to the market, and yes, makes easier to buy stuff, the stuff which price is growing up every year.

Yes, running around all the zones trying to find something is a pain, I agree, but as I already said in this thread earlier, this system also has advantages compared to AH which I find a lot better and more significant in terms of providing healthier game economy.

Bouldercleave · March 2019

The guild trader system is the main reason that I have no desire to be a GM.

I enjoy being a GM and have in many other games, but I simply don't have the time to do all that is required to maintain a trader in this game. They have made it simply unbearably complex and time consuming.

Grimlok_S · March 2019

Costs money to make money.

Traders in high-traffic areas are highly contested, for that ease of access to buyers.

If you don't want to compete, join a guild in the middle of nowhere that doesn't charge dues to keep their spot and sell your goods under market value in hopes of bringing those buyers out to you.

Or carry on and get 34g for your purple rings.

To your other point... traders spreading out the players helps to ensure competition and keeps market prices stay fairly stable. It is far easier for 1 player to manipulate pricing and gouge under the single auction house system.

DR4GONFL1 · March 2019

Best thing I ever did was join a guild. I can make in a day what I used to make in a month, it has completely changed the game in a good way for me. The weekly dues paid are usually less than what you would make turning in a single days fencing and if your in a good guild then the guild leaders put together a lot of events and take care to see that your trader stays where he is each week. So my experience has been nothing but positive.

phobossion · March 2019

Bouldercleave wrote: »

The guild trader system is the main reason that I have no desire to be a GM.

I enjoy being a GM and have in many other games, but I simply don't have the time to do all that is required to maintain a trader in this game. They have made it simply unbearably complex and time consuming.

You know you don't have to start a trading guild, right?

wolfie1.0. · March 2019

As a long time trader the guild system would work a lot better with some enhancements. Things like GM's being able to sell items directly from the guild bank without having to take up personal slots. Being able to list more than 30 items per guild per account. Someone mentioned minator motifs that they cant find. Well I would list such items but due to the limits I have to prioritize my listings to what sells. An item that expires or I have to take down is wasted gold and time. Even with 5 trade guilds I run out of space to were I have alternate accounts that I sell stuff on and sometimes even then I run out. There are changes that can be made.

However, the ship has sailed on a GAH. It's not gonna happen. Right now the economy is relatively stable. ZOS has not had to do any server wide gold wipes, inflation is low. And it's not that hard for new entrants into the system. A change at this point would require a ton of work and effort on ZOS"part for a either a net loss or small gain. I still feel that a changeover would require an economy reset where everything gets wiped.

At the end of the day though there is nothing that you can buy at a trader that you can't go farm for yourself. The real question is whether or not farming takes you more time and how much gold you want to spend.

Billdor · March 2019

Why should guilds dictate who can and can't sell to other players and maintain an iron grip on prices.

Let me get my violin out

kathandira · March 2019

Kurat wrote: »

Capitalism man. Just like in real world lol. Get used to it.

Magical elves, Humanoid Cats, Lich's, Demons, Atronarchs. Just like in the real world.

; )

idk · March 2019

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

Why should guilds dictate who can and can't sell to other players and maintain an iron grip on prices. .

First, there are trading guilds for everyone's needs just as there are PvP and PvE guilds for everyone's needs.

Second, no one maintains an iron grip on prices. That is a fabrication. A myth.

trenchfeeder_ESO wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Capitalism man. Just like in real world lol. Get used to it.

Except capitalism means a free market where anyone can start an independent business without being beholden to anyone else, provided they can supply or produce what their business is meant to sell or produce. Not that only people who join a specific group are allowed to start a business. In fact the guild trading system is almost the exact opposite of capitalism. It's closer to communism. Where a small group of people control the market and if you aren't in that small group of people, you have no right to free trade.

And it is free market capitalism. The more successful you are the better the guild you can get into. No one is successful in a free market by sitting on their ass.

The sentence in bold, if you are suggesting that is the case in ESO then you are wrong. It is easy to say but unless you have actual evidence we will mark this off as a delusion if you are actually saying this about ESO.

Really, nothing presented in this thread or other similar threads have presented any actual real information as to why the trading system should change other than some people saying they want something different. Mostly it is a bunch of myths and nothing more.

Danksta · March 2019

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

I personally would like to see an auction house or any type of trading system that players can be part of without having to join a trading guild. I'm not sure if it will happen. But it'd make it easier for people who aren't part of these trading guilds and especially help newer players get into trading more easily.

Why do people think it's so hard to get into trading guilds? I haven't played in a few months but I could get in one by the end of the night. You just go to the guild recruiting section for your platform/server and take your pick of guilds. Most of the active threads there are for trading guilds.

JiKama · March 2019

I'm in 2 trading guilds that have dues worth 5k-15k a piece or require you buy raffle tickets.... So I paid 5-15k in dues, but made 300k over night due to a good trader spot. I think it's well worth paying the 5-15k. I normally buy anywhere from 20-50k in raffle tickets anyways. I'm proud of the recent guild trader updates. I also like the guild trader system, because I will venture into areas I would never think of going.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2019

trenchfeeder_ESO wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Capitalism man. Just like in real world lol. Get used to it.

Except capitalism means a free market where anyone can start an independent business without being beholden to anyone else, provided they can supply or produce what their business is meant to sell or produce. Not that only people who join a specific group are allowed to start a business. In fact the guild trading system is almost the exact opposite of capitalism. It's closer to communism. Where a small group of people control the market and if you aren't in that small group of people, you have no right to free trade.

The bold sounds like unchecked capitalism to me. Haha

Kuramas9tails · March 2019

I hate it when someone posts an item RIGHT AFTER I DID in area chat. I will challenge them and post mine again.

PEOPLE WILL SEE MINE FIRST!

I WILL MAKE THEM!

TheTwistedRune · March 2019

trenchfeeder_ESO wrote: »

You know, I think it's about time the guild vendor system was done away with or heavily changed. If you want to sell anything for more than vendor price, you either spend all day running around spamming chat, which usually results in taking WAYYY less than items are worth/sold for on guild vendors or you join a guild or multiple guilds. The problem with this is that most guilds who have vendors in any kind of decent spot want dues, sales quotas or cuts and that's completely ridiculous. I'm not paying somebody else so I can sell stuff in any kind of timely and profitable fashion. Not only that, you have these people who spend all day running around at 450mph snatching up any and all mats they can, which creates a false sense of rarity, driving up prices. Normally you pay people for the convenience and their time gathering stuff up. However, with the state of things as they are with the speed farmers, the convenience is manufactured and their time is not worth as much because they're pulling in mats faster than they can be sold.

I don't understand why a central auction house economy seems to be so taboo in this game's community. It works just fine in every single other MMO. Why should guilds dictate who can and can't sell to other players and maintain an iron grip on prices. It just doesn't make any sense. I don't know the solution, but something has to change. Maybe make it so that guild vendors only sell crafted or rare items and provide some other incentive for trading to guild members and other guilds. Then have the central economy where anybody can sell at the very least, raw materials. Something, anything, to break this monopoly on prices and availability.

Because then greedy people would not have anything to do in game.....

Jhalin · March 2019

I’ve never been in a trade guild that required a due and sales quota. It’s nearly always one or the other.

The players you can’t trust are pretty quickly outed by other traders.

This is a great system for pretty much everyone. Yes, even buyers.

You wouldn’t get better deals if everyone was fighting over the same listings all at the same time. You’d be bombarded with “That listing is no longer available” for anything cheap and fast-moving. For anything expensive and rare anyone could automate a script to buy every copy below a certain price point. There would be no more good deals for you to come across either.

As a seller, no new player would ever be able to make money. Right now even common crafting materials go for a decent amount. Raw iron ore is almost as valuable as raw rubedite. Players can sell Intricates and raw materials and earn gold, but not if everyone floods the market with them and drives them down to vendor pricing, which would of course happen.

Inflation would skyrocket on anything still valuable, BiS gear, rare furnishings or recipes. The billions of gold drained from trader bids cannot be matched by anything in this game.

SugaComa · March 2019

Personally I think guilds should only be allowed to sell to guild members to start with and then when they have enough in taxes they can hire a trader, but traders should only ever be hired through taxes earned not from donations ... This will stop the whole over bidding on traders

wolfie1.0. · March 2019

kathandira wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Capitalism man. Just like in real world lol. Get used to it.

Magical elves, Humanoid Cats, Lich's, Demons, Atronarchs. Just like in the real world.

; )

SugaComa wrote: »

Personally I think guilds should only be allowed to sell to guild members to start with and then when they have enough in taxes they can hire a trader, but traders should only ever be hired through taxes earned not from donations ... This will stop the whole over bidding on traders

The bidding wars is ultimately a good thing for the game. It's a massive gold sink which is necessary for stability. Also your idea wont stop over bidding.