Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

The_Lex · February 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Lex, I think the answer is none.

Sadly, I think you're right. Btw, I love your sig.

Shadowshire · February 2019

Please clarify the two statements which I have italicized in the quoted context:

Improve the sense of progression that the racial passives provide when leveling up.

We want each race to have a similar rate of gaining power as you level up, and as such, we’ve restructured the unlock order of some passives. Less powerful passives will unlock first, while the larger more defining ones will unlock at later levels. Note that we’ll be refunding all of your racial skill points if you’ve already unlocked these passives. You will not need to unlock them again on characters you’ve already obtained them on.

The first statement, "refunding" the characters racial passive skill points is reasonable -- when the effects of one or more of the character's Racial Passives (R.P.) have changed, and perhaps the number of Ranks has changed, too. So the number of Skill Points required might not be the same as before. They must be re-allocated, and re-applied to increasing the respective Ranks of each R.P.

The second statement makes no sense whatsoever -- unless the player will no longer be required to expend any Skill Points to "unlock" and/or to increase the Rank of their character's R.P.s.

So, what is ZOS trying to say here?

EDIT:

As a closing note, we want to reiterate that all players will have a refund of all of their character’s racial passives if they’ve spent any, so remember to reallocate any points into these on your characters once the changes go live. We'll also be granting one free race change, per account.

Okay, that answers my initial question. However, what ZOS really should grant is one free Race Change for each player character that is at or above Level 50.

Given the inevitable bugs that will be introduced while implementing these changes in the megaserver host software, IMHO, ZOS should have left well enough alone. Whatever benefit a player might gain is going to have a cost in regard to software integrity, and to data integrity. We know that from experience.

Regardless, with respect to each of my four characters, changing their respective Race is probably not warranted for any particular one. If one or more of them will become less playable as they are in the role for which they are currently geared and skilled, then I don't see that changing their Race will improve their ability to survive and thrive.

That said, if ZOS believes that I will instead develop new characters for specific roles as tanks, DPS, or healers, then they need to think again. What they should realize is that when they mess with someone's investment of 4+ years of time and effort, then they risk losing that player entirely. Is it time to move on to some other game, ZOS?

Shadowshire · February 2019

Hmmm .... if you're going to change a Racial Passive, what is the point to changing the effects of a basically flawed original design?

Argonian

Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed → No changes
Resourceful: Gain 3% Max Magicka and restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion → Increases your Max Magicka by 1000. Restore 3600 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion.
Argonian Resistance: 9% Max Health and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect.
Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received → Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 4%.

IMHO, in principle, the only benefit which a character receives from consuming a Potion should be the effects of the Potion (of course!). First, consider the current framework and context of the buffs provided by foods, beverages, potions, and poisons:

Foods temporarily increase the maximum amount of Health, Stamina, or Magicka (or a combination of two, or of all three, Attributes) that character has, i.e., while the food's buff is in effect during a relatively long timespan.
Beverages temporarily increase the rate at which the character recovers Health, Stamina, or Magicka (or a combination of two, or of all three, recovery rates of their Attributes), that the character has lost or expended, for a relatively short time before the beverage's buff expires.
All potions do not affect one or more of a character's Attributes, or their recovery rates. But many Potions restore Health, Magicka, or Stamina (or a combination of two, or of all three, Attributes) by a specifc amount(s) (respectively), and increase the corresponding recovery rate(s) by 20% for a short timespan.

Apparently, both the current and the revised Argonian Racial Passive replace the amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina which are restored by any Potion that an Argonian character consumes. Whether it also replaces Health, Magicka, and/or Stamina when the consumed potion does not affect any of those respective Attributes is unclear (I don't have the experience to know).

IMHO, there is no reason to replace the effects of any Potion with the effects of the Racial Passive (which are italicized in the quote above). Further, there is no rationale to restore Health, Stamina, and/or Magicka, respectively, if an effect of the consumed Potion does not do so.

Regardless, the best way to define a Racial Passive which affects the effects of Potions, is to design one that amplifies the actual effects of the specific Potion that the character consumes.

For example, when the character consumes a Potion that replaces lost Health, the Racial Passive can increase the replaced amount by adding a specific, constant amount to the Health replaced by the Potion. However, a constant increase will make a weaker Potion disproportionately stronger than it will strengthen a stronger Potion.

So, it would arguably be best to simply increase the amount of each Attribute that is restored (after consuming the Potion) by adding a percentage of the amount restored by the Potion to the total restored to the current value of the Attribute. The respective recovery rate for each such Attribute could also be increased, i.e., to a larger percentage.

Kalle_Demos · February 2019

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_RobGarrett

The time, resources, and effort that went into these patches and it looks like all ZOS did was achieve the exact opposite of what they set out to do. What was the point? Throughout the process they acknowledged criticism on sweeping changes and player feedback but proceeded to enact sweeping changes and ignore player feedback anyway.

ZOS, What exactly were you trying to achieve here? Some key racials DO NOT have universal applicability. Not every race provides a completely unique gameplay element and this patch MADE THIS WORSE by GUTTING unique traits. Some races STILL provided more mathematical combat power than others.

The meta has shifted and now there are LESS competitive options. And many proposals clash with long established Lore. I hope that ZOS realizes this and takes a second and third look at the racial balance changes otherwise all this endeavor will have achieved is upsetting players of all stripes.

Shadowshire · February 2019

An oversight (?):

Wood Elf

Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10% → No changes
Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery → Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258.
Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
....

ZOS should also increase the Wood Elf Disease Restistance by 1485 (perhaps by a lesser amount?), too. Unless, of course, ZOS wants to remove it from the Wood Elf Racial Passive entirely.

Shadowshire · February 2019

Perfectionist, here:

Dark Elf

Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50% → No changes
Dynamic: 6% Max Stamina and Magicka → Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1250.
Resist Flame: 3% Max Magicka and 2079 Flame Resistance → Increases your Max Health by 600 and your Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect.
Destructive Ancestry: 7% Flame damage and 2% Frost/Shock Damage → Ruination: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.

Umm... what does Health have to do with Resist Flame? Move the increase to Max Health to the Dynamic Racial Passive, where it belongs with the increases to Max Stamina and to Max Magicka.

Sheesh, if you don't do it right, then when will you have time to do it over?

Shadowshire · February 2019

The changes to the Nord Racial Passives are rather contrary to the developer's comments about the Nord race.

Nord

Increases Experience gain in Two Handed Skill Line by 15%, 15 extra minutes on drink buffs → No changes
Stalwart: 6% Max Stamina and 20% Health Recovery → Increases your Max Stamina by 1500. When you take damage, you gain 5 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.
Resist Frost: 9% Max Health and 2079 Cold Resistance → Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Cold Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Chilled status effect.
Rugged: 6% damage reduction → Increases your Physical and Spell Resistance by 3960.

Stalwart: the Max Stamina constant is a major nerf to every Nord Stamina build. That is, a build in which the Stamina Attribute amount allocated when the character is created is significantly more than amounts allocated to Health and to Magicka, respectively. Omitting any benefit to Health Recovery is also a significant nerf. Gaining 5 Ultimate when the character "takes damage" has nothing in particular to do with whether the character is resilient in combat!

Resist Frost: assuming that a Nord character has 25,000 Max Health, the current benefit increases it to 27,250, i.e., by 2,250. The new constant value of 1000 increase for Max Health is clearly another major nerf.

Whether the revision to Rugged compensates enough for the nerfs in Stalwart and Resist Frost is rather unclear. It probably depends upon whose combat model is used to evaluate and compare Builds. But it is what the megaserver does -- or does not do -- instead that determines the result of these changes, regardless.

In 4+ years of experience reading Patch Notes and other "documentation" for TESO, what is stated in writing -- even on the HUD Ability Bar tooltips -- is often evidently different from what the megaserver actually does. What the Patch Notes aver is often less important than what they do not disclose. There is many a slip between cup and lip.

Or, as my Father once told me, "If you believe about half of what you read, and even less of what you hear, you will be a wise man."

Malada · February 2019

Hello everyone,

I've been with the game since just after release and this is my first time posting on these forums although I read thru them quite frequently.

Before I get started, let me thank you all for taking the time to read this and I hope this makes it way to someone willing to listen to my thoughts on the Bosmer changes. Maintained several Bosmer NB characters for the last 3 or 4 years, one for each Alliance. I believe the current edition of Bosmer changes are being rushed through and the Bosmer is not being given a fair consideration.

Right from the start, let me get this out of the way, out of the bag and say that not all of the Bosmer changes are bad. The 2k Fortified Stam and 258 Stam Regen I can live with. Although let's face it, you basically just converted those specs over from percentages to a stacked value, an estimation of what was for your new measurement system. Hard to get that wrong I guess although it does feel like Bosmer is getting (a little) shafted on Stam Regen, as the current Stam regen value of 21% is great and also makes them unique. The Bosmer doesn't have an Orc or Dunmer's dmg buff yet they don't really need them as that extra Stam Regen gives dmg in a different way, you see, helps make certain builds possible w/ Heavy Armor etc and makes them unique in this regard. However I do agree that 2x 129 Stam Regen buffs is still a big deal and there are many 5 pcs sets which grant that -and- the 2k Stam as well so it does seem Bosmer will still be strong in this regard, for now... until that gets nerfed later. Bow XP increase and Fall Damage is also fine way they are.

So what is the problem here? What brought me out of the shadows to finally come forward and post to this forum?

In this next segment, I really don't mean to be rude or disrespectful however I am kind of frustrated and I feel disrespected and this needs to be said and I owe it, oddly enough, to the hours spent over the years playing Bosmer to take a stand on this along with the few other Bosmer players.

I get the feeling that some of the people in charge of making these changes whether a project manager just put you in charge and threw this on your desk or dropped a baby in your lap or maybe this was an extension by design as you wanted to move to a new measurement system and throw out the percent passives for reasons, whoever however whatever decided on this I feel has left the door open to some problems. The fact we have several revisions -to the changes- and whatever the latest round of changes are is posted where ever all over the internet, indicates that maybe these were not thought out as well as they should have been.

The problem -I suspect- as far as our purpose here is concerned started when trying to clean up the similarities between Bosmer and Khajit. I've seen revisions of both races changes. First of all, it's the Khajit who should have the 3% or 5% Detection buff and the Bosmer who should have the 5% Stealth radius buff. Why? I will not repeat the entire story however I recommend reading, "The 5 Years War". In that story it depicts the Khajit as mainly infantry minded soldiers in Heavy or Medium armor w/ (ie Battle Cats) and several times the Bosmer Archers w/ Stealth tactics mentioned. In other games, like Skyrim, the Khajit are provided a night-site bonus while the Bosmer are always granted a bonus to Archery and other things like making animals your ally, poison resist etc.

So speaking of Archery, the Bosmer culture and factions commonly use the bow. One of the first things you discover in Skyrim is stealth attacks using the Bow. Point being, Stealth attacks and the bow go together like restoration magic and a staff or a sword and shield. In the current changes for Bosmer we have no Stealth attack bonus anymore, we have no stealth hidden radius buff, nothing. Instead you've replaced something lore friendly that worked, something that gave the Bosmer an edge to help compete with out races and replaced it with a move speed and penetration bonus when they... 'roll dodge'. I am not going to say how poetically [snip] this is and or it makes absolutely no [snip] sense, whatsoever so help me almighty God.

Let's stop and think about this. In lore, as Bow users the Bosmer ("Common Arms of Valenwood" or "The Black Arrow") do not just use a Bow like someone with no feel for marksman might fire a pistol. The bow is, you know like 'a part of them'. Ok and as such, being stealthy comes with that. Not being thieves. Let's not misunderstand form vs function. The Bosmer form is to function stealthily in order to use their Bows more effectively in ways that other cultures cannot emulate. The Khajit are shady figures who conduct elicit operations however many of them are merchants and infantrymen also. Does anyone get what I'm pointing out here?

Bosmer are not just using a Bow like someone might use a shovel, they are Masters of the Bow. And as such that makes them Master of Stealth or -at very least- Masters of using the Bow in Stealth attacks. Again, form vs function. If Khajit must have the Stealth radius buff, please give the Bosmer back our Stealth attack bonus. And get rid of that nonsense about using roll-dodge to have a move bonus and then gonna have a weapon penetration buff for however long, it just doens't make any sense. If you're practiced Mastering a Bow in the jungle then Stealth and a 10% move bonus does not add up. Furthermore, if you're a Hunter at all... again Stealth is your game not moving a little faster. Besides, that move bonus will be so subtle and so bogged down by lag no one will care.

Another thing to, you are penalizing the Bosmer stam bonuses thru that roll dodge. Roll Dodge ain't cheap. Every time we have to roll Dodge, (costs stam) to gain... a move speed bonus, which costs stam and then we get a pen bonus? It don't make no sense. As if you didn't know, most decent players are going to do their own research about Weapon penetration amounts and that will be 'settled' before they go off into PvP. See? You're not helping at all giving the Bosmer a pen bonus that will likely end up going over the penetration ceiling and going to waste anyways.

Does anybody get what I am saying? The Bosmer penetration bonus is a wash. That move speed bonus will never be used effectively either because of the lag and the fact you have to roll Dodge to get the ability to move faster burning stam you already don't have from stam bonus resources meant for other purposes.

Whew! I know that was alot. Please consider restoring Bosmer Stealth Attack Bonus and maybe the 5m Stealth radius buff also. We really do not need the 3% Detect Bonus, the 10% move speed bonus and esp the lousy 1k penetration bonus. Thank you.

[edited for profanity bypass]

BlueRaven · February 2019

Malada wrote: »

Hello everyone,

I've been with the game since just after release and this is my first time posting on these forums although I read thru them quite frequently.

Before I get started, let me thank you all for taking the time to read this and I hope this makes it way to someone willing to listen to my thoughts on the Bosmer changes. Maintained several Bosmer NB characters for the last 3 or 4 years, one for each Alliance. I believe the current edition of Bosmer changes are being rushed through and the Bosmer is not being given a fair consideration.

Right from the start, let me get this out of the way, out of the bag and say that not all of the Bosmer changes are bad. The 2k Fortified Stam and 258 Stam Regen I can live with. Although let's face it, you basically just converted those specs over from percentages to a stacked value, an estimation of what was for your new measurement system. Hard to get that wrong I guess although it does feel like Bosmer is getting (a little) shafted on Stam Regen, as the current Stam regen value of 21% is great and also makes them unique. The Bosmer doesn't have an Orc or Dunmer's dmg buff yet they don't really need them as that extra Stam Regen gives dmg in a different way, you see, helps make certain builds possible w/ Heavy Armor etc and makes them unique in this regard. However I do agree that 2x 129 Stam Regen buffs is still a big deal and there are many 5 pcs sets which grant that -and- the 2k Stam as well so it does seem Bosmer will still be strong in this regard, for now... until that gets nerfed later. Bow XP increase and Fall Damage is also fine way they are.

So what is the problem here? What brought me out of the shadows to finally come forward and post to this forum?

In this next segment, I really don't mean to be rude or disrespectful however I am kind of frustrated and I feel disrespected and this needs to be said and I owe it, oddly enough, to the hours spent over the years playing Bosmer to take a stand on this along with the few other Bosmer players.

I get the feeling that some of the people in charge of making these changes whether a project manager just put you in charge and threw this on your desk or dropped a baby in your lap or maybe this was an extension by design as you wanted to move to a new measurement system and throw out the percent passives for reasons, whoever however whatever decided on this I feel has left the door open to some problems. The fact we have several revisions -to the changes- and whatever the latest round of changes are is posted where ever all over the internet, indicates that maybe these were not thought out as well as they should have been.

The problem -I suspect- as far as our purpose here is concerned started when trying to clean up the similarities between Bosmer and Khajit. I've seen revisions of both races changes. First of all, it's the Khajit who should have the 3% or 5% Detection buff and the Bosmer who should have the 5% Stealth radius buff. Why? I will not repeat the entire story however I recommend reading, "The 5 Years War". In that story it depicts the Khajit as mainly infantry minded soldiers in Heavy or Medium armor w/ (ie Battle Cats) and several times the Bosmer Archers w/ Stealth tactics mentioned. In other games, like Skyrim, the Khajit are provided a night-site bonus while the Bosmer are always granted a bonus to Archery and other things like making animals your ally, poison resist etc.

So speaking of Archery, the Bosmer culture and factions commonly use the bow. One of the first things you discover in Skyrim is stealth attacks using the Bow. Point being, Stealth attacks and the bow go together like restoration magic and a staff or a sword and shield. In the current changes for Bosmer we have no Stealth attack bonus anymore, we have no stealth hidden radius buff, nothing. Instead you've replaced something lore friendly that worked, something that gave the Bosmer an edge to help compete with out races and replaced it with a move speed and penetration bonus when they... 'roll dodge'. I am not going to say how poetically [snip] this is and or it makes absolutely no [snip] sense, whatsoever so help me almighty God.

Let's stop and think about this. In lore, as Bow users the Bosmer ("Common Arms of Valenwood" or "The Black Arrow") do not just use a Bow like someone with no feel for marksman might fire a pistol. The bow is, you know like 'a part of them'. Ok and as such, being stealthy comes with that. Not being thieves. Let's not misunderstand form vs function. The Bosmer form is to function stealthily in order to use their Bows more effectively in ways that other cultures cannot emulate. The Khajit are shady figures who conduct elicit operations however many of them are merchants and infantrymen also. Does anyone get what I'm pointing out here?

Bosmer are not just using a Bow like someone might use a shovel, they are Masters of the Bow. And as such that makes them Master of Stealth or -at very least- Masters of using the Bow in Stealth attacks. Again, form vs function. If Khajit must have the Stealth radius buff, please give the Bosmer back our Stealth attack bonus. And get rid of that nonsense about using roll-dodge to have a move bonus and then gonna have a weapon penetration buff for however long, it just doens't make any sense. If you're practiced Mastering a Bow in the jungle then Stealth and a 10% move bonus does not add up. Furthermore, if you're a Hunter at all... again Stealth is your game not moving a little faster. Besides, that move bonus will be so subtle and so bogged down by lag no one will care.

Another thing to, you are penalizing the Bosmer stam bonuses thru that roll dodge. Roll Dodge ain't cheap. Every time we have to roll Dodge, (costs stam) to gain... a move speed bonus, which costs stam and then we get a pen bonus? It don't make no sense. As if you didn't know, most decent players are going to do their own research about Weapon penetration amounts and that will be 'settled' before they go off into PvP. See? You're not helping at all giving the Bosmer a pen bonus that will likely end up going over the penetration ceiling and going to waste anyways.

Does anybody get what I am saying? The Bosmer penetration bonus is a wash. That move speed bonus will never be used effectively either because of the lag and the fact you have to roll Dodge to get the ability to move faster burning stam you already don't have from stam bonus resources meant for other purposes.

Whew! I know that was alot. Please consider restoring Bosmer Stealth Attack Bonus and maybe the 5m Stealth radius buff also. We really do not need the 3% Detect Bonus, the 10% move speed bonus and esp the lousy 1k penetration bonus. Thank you.

Amazing!!!! Well written and well thought out!
[edited to remove quote]

Cundu_Ertur · February 2019

Malada, I think you mean 3m hiding bonus. We never had 5m. The Khajiit did, for a week in PTS, but it was way too much. 3m hiding bonus is fine. I don't mind the speed bonus after a roll dodge. It's not great, but not bad. What I would like to see would be that we get our stealthy hiding bonus (which Bosmer have ALWAYS HAD) back, keep the roll dodge, but replace the penetration after roll-dodge with some kind of bow improvement: better crit chance or damage with a bow, better penetration with a bow, just a flat bonus to damage with a bow, just something which justifies the lore of Bosmer being the best at archery.

Malada · February 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Malada, I think you mean 3m hiding bonus. We never had 5m. The Khajiit did, for a week in PTS, but it was way too much. 3m hiding bonus is fine. I don't mind the speed bonus after a roll dodge. It's not great, but not bad. What I would like to see would be that we get our stealthy hiding bonus (which Bosmer have ALWAYS HAD) back, keep the roll dodge, but replace the penetration after roll-dodge with some kind of bow improvement: better crit chance or damage with a bow, better penetration with a bow, just a flat bonus to damage with a bow, just something which justifies the lore of Bosmer being the best at archery.

The only 'practical' reason for roll dodging is if you're evading or gonna perform some kind of counter attack and evade to whatever extent.

Now, again, 1k baby

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Malada, I think you mean 3m hiding bonus. We never had 5m. The Khajiit did, for a week in PTS, but it was way too much. 3m hiding bonus is fine. I don't mind the speed bonus after a roll dodge. It's not great, but not bad. What I would like to see would be that we get our stealthy hiding bonus (which Bosmer have ALWAYS HAD) back, keep the roll dodge, but replace the penetration after roll-dodge with some kind of bow improvement: better crit chance or damage with a bow, better penetration with a bow, just a flat bonus to damage with a bow, just something which justifies the lore of Bosmer being the best at archery.

Crit dmg is no good because the Khajit followers who came in thru the side door won't allow that.

Like I said, it seems they opened the door to these changes, maybe it was actually for good reasons however it just seems everyone is getting a pay day but us.

Nords are getting a nice mitigation boost. Wow. Amazing. Very convenient.

Orc change specs were terrible in the beginning, a certain streamer -rightfully- brought this up and guess what... it was fixed.

Khajit got everything they wanted, got the magic crits fixed I see.

Am I being unfair? I don't think so because looking over some of these changes it certainly looks like these are almost being tailored to builds and not truly reflecting the culture.

For example, for 2 years now I've had Dunmer DPS Tank at Mit Cap. Easily done. You just have to take time to read and do a little maff. Changes should not be made based on a complaint that lacks relevance when there is a method available.

You know, it's like this '***on' Guild Master who complained and complained about Marksman having 2H weapons, Destruction Staves. Viper having a Bow. She never once gave any thought to the fact there's a whole science around building things called 'Engineering' and that players should be free to build to *their* specs. To think and to Engineer builds that work for 'us'. Then One Tam comes out and starts burning books with 'smart loot'? Not to smart if you ask me. There's a word for that from the 1940s however the narration is in German.

Point is because of one or two people making dumb, selfish decisions all of us are being punished and I'm getting tired of it.

Mr_Wolfe · February 2019

The_Lex wrote: »

As I posted in another thread:

I'd like to know which developer was truly committed to the Elder Scrolls series and universe before coming to ESO. By committed, I mean, more than a few play-throughs of a game to catch the flavor of the series or because the game was "cool to play" when it was released. Some of these racial passives show zero basis in established lore. Sure, they can be "shoehorned" into lore somehow, but that's not the same thing. And the established lore surrounding racial abilities can be made to work with an MMO - so that's no excuse either.

Well, they had an official 'loremaster' but he left recently. Right before these changes were announced, in fact.

Moonsorrow · February 2019

Please keep old Bosmer Stealthy racial passive.

ZOS, you still have time to change that for the Wrathstone live patch. Imagine how many people you will make happy with that. Do it for once and see how it feels. There is no bad side doing so, people will just say "whoa, they actually listened to us!".

Benefits are, then there are 2 races for stealthy playstyle. You wanted people to have more choices. Having only Khajiit as choice is not more, its less. So please make sure Bosmer is a possibility for Stealthy players still.

You will get only good feedback from doing it. So please do the right thing.

I do not beg often, but when i do, i go full /kneelpray on it. Pretty please?

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

karthrag_inak · February 2019

Malada wrote: »

Khajit got everything they wanted, got the magic crits fixed I see.

Bull. Moving crit % to crit damage was never asked for, and is going to be, for the majority of the stam jiit player base, a net nerf compared to live now. requiring over 70% crit for 10% crit damage to actually outweigh the old 8% crit bonus is going to move this outside of the vast majority of folks' reach. The only folks i see applauding this are non-jiit.

jiit were doing fine with 4.3.2 but, well, leet-non-jiit endgame -magicka- folks cried hard enough for this change to happen based on jiit -magicka- performance, so it was shoved in across the board with neither comment nor explanation.

Deathlord92 · February 2019

I still want to my Breton to have stam racial passives his am assassin he wields swords daggers axes poisons he doesn’t use a stick

Malada · February 2019

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Please keep old Bosmer Stealthy racial passive.

ZOS, you still have time to change that for the Wrathstone live patch. Imagine how many people you will make happy with that. Do it for once and see how it feels. There is no bad side doing so, people will just say "whoa, they actually listened to us!".

Benefits are, then there are 2 races for stealthy playstyle. You wanted people to have more choices. Having only Khajiit as choice is not more, its less. So please make sure Bosmer is a possibility for Stealthy players still.

You will get only good feedback from doing it. So please do the right thing.

I do not beg often, but when i do, i go full /kneelpray on it. Pretty please?

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

The only thing I can't understand about this is why do we have to beg? I am not begging for them to do the right thing. You know it's like everything else, people are given authority and put into positions for a reason. It should have been obvious from the get-go that there are mistakes, some of which have been fixed I'll give em that.

Adding the move speed bonus wasn't a bad thing however I find it suspect with the ahhh 'increase detection radius' and making us first roll dodge before getting a weapon pen bonus that we really don't need. Anyone else also notice this? It's like we're being trolled. You know it's like you don't like the Patriots because of their record and the fact they have a great team with tons of experience so instead of wearing gloves or braces or coming onto the field with the proper gear you force the team to come to every game going forward wearing a pink dress and an inner-tube, denied of the gear they need because you want to force them to lose while other teams are getting practically everything they want.

However this ends up it should be obvious to all parties that nerfing a Sneak or Stealth attack bonus -alone-, then taking it out on one race out of spite is not going to protect you from your own laziness, carelessness, recklessness and in general a complete lack of competent decision making in places like Imperial City. Don't blame me because you're greedy. It looks like I'm going to be very busy in Imperial City for the foreseeable.

Jaimeh · February 2019

Please consider raising the Dunmer max stats to 2000; this way mag and stam DPS won't have to be pigeon-hole'd to Altmer/Orc, and players can have more (equally strong) choices. For example, if a magicka DD likes extra stamina sustain, they can pick Altmer; if they want fire resistance because they are a vampire, they can pick Dunmer. Conversely, if a stamina DD likes extra health, they can pick Orc; and if they like fire resistance they can be a Dunmer. @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam

Moonsorrow · February 2019

Malada wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Please keep old Bosmer Stealthy racial passive.

ZOS, you still have time to change that for the Wrathstone live patch. Imagine how many people you will make happy with that. Do it for once and see how it feels. There is no bad side doing so, people will just say "whoa, they actually listened to us!".

Benefits are, then there are 2 races for stealthy playstyle. You wanted people to have more choices. Having only Khajiit as choice is not more, its less. So please make sure Bosmer is a possibility for Stealthy players still.

You will get only good feedback from doing it. So please do the right thing.

I do not beg often, but when i do, i go full /kneelpray on it. Pretty please?

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

The only thing I can't understand about this is why do we have to beg? I am not begging for them to do the right thing. You know it's like everything else, people are given authority and put into positions for a reason. It should have been obvious from the get-go that there are mistakes, some of which have been fixed I'll give em that.

Adding the move speed bonus wasn't a bad thing however I find it suspect with the ahhh 'increase detection radius' and making us first roll dodge before getting a weapon pen bonus that we really don't need. Anyone else also notice this? It's like we're being trolled. You know it's like you don't like the Patriots because of their record and the fact they have a great team with tons of experience so instead of wearing gloves or braces or coming onto the field with the proper gear you force the team to come to every game going forward wearing a pink dress and an inner-tube, denied of the gear they need because you want to force them to lose while other teams are getting practically everything they want.

However this ends up it should be obvious to all parties that nerfing a Sneak or Stealth attack bonus -alone-, then taking it out on one race out of spite is not going to protect you from your own laziness, carelessness, recklessness and in general a complete lack of competent decision making in places like Imperial City. Don't blame me because you're greedy. It looks like I'm going to be very busy in Imperial City for the foreseeable.

Well, trying the polite way of saying what the majority of players feel about it. While yeah, "begging" seems like odd way of going at it.. i feel it might work better this time than the "changes suck im gonna uninstall" that many saying already.

Just hoping they would see that having bosmer be also a choice for stealth play as it is now is just a positive thing and that they do not have to change something that is not broken. People do not need/want the dodge roll racial, but rather keep the old stealth radius one. It does not break balance if it stays like that, but will keep many bosmer players happy. Win-win for players and for ZOS imo.

Some know i can do sarcastic crusades on bad changes.. so atleast am trying to stay constructive and polite this time. Even begging rather than doing some witty comments all over the forums.

Malada · February 2019

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Malada wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Please keep old Bosmer Stealthy racial passive.

ZOS, you still have time to change that for the Wrathstone live patch. Imagine how many people you will make happy with that. Do it for once and see how it feels. There is no bad side doing so, people will just say "whoa, they actually listened to us!".

Benefits are, then there are 2 races for stealthy playstyle. You wanted people to have more choices. Having only Khajiit as choice is not more, its less. So please make sure Bosmer is a possibility for Stealthy players still.

You will get only good feedback from doing it. So please do the right thing.

I do not beg often, but when i do, i go full /kneelpray on it. Pretty please?

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

The only thing I can't understand about this is why do we have to beg? I am not begging for them to do the right thing. You know it's like everything else, people are given authority and put into positions for a reason. It should have been obvious from the get-go that there are mistakes, some of which have been fixed I'll give em that.

Adding the move speed bonus wasn't a bad thing however I find it suspect with the ahhh 'increase detection radius' and making us first roll dodge before getting a weapon pen bonus that we really don't need. Anyone else also notice this? It's like we're being trolled. You know it's like you don't like the Patriots because of their record and the fact they have a great team with tons of experience so instead of wearing gloves or braces or coming onto the field with the proper gear you force the team to come to every game going forward wearing a pink dress and an inner-tube, denied of the gear they need because you want to force them to lose while other teams are getting practically everything they want.

However this ends up it should be obvious to all parties that nerfing a Sneak or Stealth attack bonus -alone-, then taking it out on one race out of spite is not going to protect you from your own laziness, carelessness, recklessness and in general a complete lack of competent decision making in places like Imperial City. Don't blame me because you're greedy. It looks like I'm going to be very busy in Imperial City for the foreseeable.

Well, trying the polite way of saying what the majority of players feel about it. While yeah, "begging" seems like odd way of going at it.. i feel it might work better this time than the "changes suck im gonna uninstall" that many saying already.

Just hoping they would see that having bosmer be also a choice for stealth play as it is now is just a positive thing and that they do not have to change something that is not broken. People do not need/want the dodge roll racial, but rather keep the old stealth radius one. It does not break balance if it stays like that, but will keep many bosmer players happy. Win-win for players and for ZOS imo.

Some know i can do sarcastic crusades on bad changes.. so atleast am trying to stay constructive and polite this time. Even begging rather than doing some witty comments all over the forums.

Look, all I know is over the years I've spent... 'alot' on Crowns, subscriptions and everything else for this game. (Too much)

Why shouldn't I be a little frustrated at the changes being made, esp when other races pot holes are getting cleaned up and we're left with a bunch of non-nonsensical changes ripped off a 5pc set that no one ever uses? What if they took the Orc and replaced their passives with the "Night's Silence" set?

When the streamers demanded Orc get fixed that got done in just a couple days. When others went to whomever or whenever they got what they wanted for Nord and Khajit. Why am I paying all this time and money for a platform that intentionally excludes me to save face? There's a word for that in the business world it's called a 'Stakeholder'. Why shouldn't ZOS listen to the people paying them, investing in them? Still, there comes a point where feelings are regardless to the point being made.

Pardon me for causing trouble however I didn't start this. If you're going to ignore -some- of us and produce some very bad changes -outside of the demonstrated consistency- to fix said changes then what do we have to lose by going on a little Crusade now and again. They're not on here fighting for what's right, they're fighting for what they want. If they want to stay silent or approve of this bad setup so that one of us doesn't snipe them once in awhile then it's only fair that some of them should feel our pain. And boy are they going to feel it. The point has to be made to them that winning the game or being successful therein, does not include complaining or asking the Devs to nerf out legitimate builds because you're too lazy or cheap to think about why you keep dying. Believe it or not, sniping is not as easy as described. And it will still occur so if we realize this then why nerf Bosmer at all? I would also say if you don't like the Sneak bonus add some permanent weapon penetration. Shouldn't matter because they're handing out weapon and spell damage.

Not to mention, the current round of Bosmer updates seems to be pulled directly from the "Way of Air" set. I've rolled thru the forums hundreds of times and never seen this set mentioned before. Maybe someone will find it now that I said it however I've never seen "Way of Air" ever brought up in any meaningful discussion. Why model the Bosmer bonus after an existing set to start with? Especially one that is very rarely used. Again it don't make no sense.

I'll leave it at this, if you don't like what I'm saying or if I'm wrong for saying it then prove me wrong. Let's see what they do.

Malada · February 2019

If this helps, I noticed with several races they're getting like 2x 129 Wep Dmgs or 2x 129 Spell Dmg buffs or whichever.

I think that's great.

So to compensate Bosmer players for removing the Stealth Sneak bonus (if it must be removed which I don't recommend) then go ahead and please compensate us with:

2x 1487 Weapon Penetration, comes to 2974. These 1487 values are taken directly from sets, same as the 2x 129 (258) weapon and spell dmg buffs being handed out to other races.

Why not? You're handing out weapon and spell dmg buffs and I believe you're handing those out for the right reason.

Ok let's give Bosmer 2974 Permanent Weapon Pen and then leave the 10% move bonus in roll dodge.

That is a very fair arrangement and would make everyone happy. People hate snipers, so the stealth bonus is gone. Bosmer need to be compensated for dmg loss and this gives us a dmg bonus directly in line with other races who got theirs from the same concept. If you got a problem with it, stack mitigation. Nords are getting 4k mitigation for example so there is an option for counter play.

rabidmyers · February 2019

give argonians something to help them with stam dps

VoltrenXytech · February 2019

seriously.... your removing argonian poison resist and immunity to the debuffs..... why?

Moonsorrow · February 2019

Malada wrote: »

I'll leave it at this, if you don't like what I'm saying or if I'm wrong for saying it then prove me wrong. Let's see what they do.

Never said you are wrong.

Just telling what all the people from the game i know keep telling me, and that is that they want to keep their Bosmer thief characters with their current Stealthy passive and not want dodge rolling bonus that gives nothing to them. They just want to have more choice than 1 (Khajiit) for stealthy characters, they like bosmers and their lore.

There is a very big player amount that play bosmers as main and love their lore and passives. I see no logical reason to alienate and make them unhappy. When keeping that stealthy passive is not away from anyone and is not "op" or anything.

Just keep it the way it is and people (and cute bosmers) are happy.

Not everything has to change "just because.." unless there really is a good reason. There is none. More reason to keep it actually, so there is atleast 2 races to pick for stealthy play, Bosmer and Khajiit.

More choices and freedom was the goal of these changes, right? So having just 1 stealthy race is not more, its less.

So: Keep Bosmer Stealthy passive. Let us steal undetected!

#BosmerThuglife

Cundu_Ertur · February 2019

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Malada wrote: »

I'll leave it at this, if you don't like what I'm saying or if I'm wrong for saying it then prove me wrong. Let's see what they do.

Never said you are wrong.

Just telling what all the people from the game i know keep telling me, and that is that they want to keep their Bosmer thief characters with their current Stealthy passive and not want dodge rolling bonus that gives nothing to them. They just want to have more choice than 1 (Khajiit) for stealthy characters, they like bosmers and their lore.

There is a very big player amount that play bosmers as main and love their lore and passives. I see no logical reason to alienate and make them unhappy. When keeping that stealthy passive is not away from anyone and is not "op" or anything.

Just keep it the way it is and people (and cute bosmers) are happy.

Not everything has to change "just because.." unless there really is a good reason. There is none. More reason to keep it actually, so there is atleast 2 races to pick for stealthy play, Bosmer and Khajiit.

More choices and freedom was the goal of these changes, right? So having just 1 stealthy race is not more, its less.

So: Keep Bosmer Stealthy passive. Let us steal undetected!

#BosmerThuglife

If there's only going to be one thief race, then there should be only one magic race and one warrior race. The other 7 races can be crafters and mules. <= this is sarcasm. kinda.

The whole idea that each race needs its own passive is nonsense, especially since there are only so many things that can be buffed.

tldr: I agree

VoltrenXytech · February 2019

so your response to " races are not unique enough" was to blend them further together and make a few of them completely useless now..... you couldnt even roughly follow the elder scrolls passive perks i mean [snip] you got rid of all stealth ability the khajits had, took argonians posion immunity and resistance to the wood elves, and made all stats a static nuber in stead of a flexible percentile? [snip]

[edited for bashing & profanity bypass]

Cundu_Ertur · February 2019

VoltrenXytech wrote: »

[snip] you got rid of all stealth ability the khajits had, took argonians posion immunity and resistance to the wood elves, and made all stats a static nuber in stead of a flexible percentile?

Actually, Khajiit are the only ones with stealth, it's in their last passive now, just not where it was before. Bosmer lose their stealth entirely and get a garbage detection passive that's unusable in PVE.
The flat numbers are, generally, a buff.
I agree about the poison, Bosmer should have had disease, Argonians poison immunity with resistance to both poison and disease.

[edited to remove quote]

Kesstryl · February 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Just a reminder: taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.

^^ Reading this made my day, and yes, I totally agree. My main is a Bosmer.

Uryel · February 2019

Kesstryl wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Just a reminder: taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.

^^ Reading this made my day, and yes, I totally agree. My main is a Bosmer.

Same.

@ZOS_Gilliam , would you kindly rethink that horrid patch of yours ? Thank you very much.

grizzly375 · February 2019

So, I take it this abomination is going live next week, and we're still only getting three tokens? I've held off playing any of my toons for the last several weeks because I don't want to be any more pissed off about this, but I guess hoping for something better was in vain.

Hope the money grab in token sales compensates for the loss of dedicated PAYING players, like myself.

Have fun with the new builds!

onegunholiday · February 2019

I feel like these changes will just force people to become more creative with their gear to reach desired effect. I think most of these passives were a little excessive to begin with. Imo, some of these minor nerds were needed.