Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

Moonsorrow · February 2019

Small update on my thoughts about the changes based on the latest PTS. While i still think the changes were really not needed since they were not broken, only small adjustments was needed, but.. knowing well there is no going back anymore since decisions been made already:

Good:

+ Imperials. They feel decent now with the 3% cost reductions. Well done.
+ Breton. They are in a good place now.

Bad:

- Bosmer. Many roleplayers and thieves still would rather have the old sneak passive back instead of this weird dodge roll thingy.

Everything else is "ok", but Altmer having the weird stam return gives nothing for pve people, so they are not happy.

Make changes that keep people happy. Simple. While you the developers are the artists that create the game as your vision, remember that you are commercial artists in reality and the players are your employers since they pay real money for the game and thus, be ready for compromises.

Simple math (i know you like math and raw data). Live long and prosper as a result.

My own opinion does not matter so much, i`m just voicing concerns from all the people i know in the game.

actosh · February 2019

Wouldnt call Imperials decent at the moment. Playable fits better ^^

Deathlord92 · February 2019

I still really want a way to morph my Breton racial passives to stam I been playing a Breton assassin since oblivion still playing a Breton cutthroat in skyrim remastered been playing a Breton stamblade in eso since day 1 console release he wields a sword more deadly thn any Redguard 🔥🔥🔥

grizzly375 · February 2019

For the millionth time, I BEG the devs to go back to what the INTENT of this "balance" is - to whit, to make all races "decent" in all roles, and give each race something "unique."

What the current changes do is simply CHANGE the meta from one race to another, while COMPLETELY missing the intent of making all races capable of running any role.

Again, I respectfully suggest that racial "passives" should ONLY provide that "flavor" (Redguard snare resistance is a great example, as is Dunmer fire resistance, etc). ALL the other aspects of the current and future "passives" should come from a pool, where the player can pick and choose their role. There could be a "warrior," "mage," "guardian," "thief," and "healer" path, each selectable at a given level. Want to be all melee DPS - stick with the "warrior" path, which would give increased physical damage, increased stam, increased stam regen, etc. "Mage" path would mirror with magicka and magicka damage. "Thief" would give stealth improvements and crit increases along with stam or stam return, etc...

As it stands right now, all you're accomplishing is making current "meta" builds junk, driving UNWANTED racial change. You're not broadening our choices, your limiting them, unless a player was previously playing a non-"meta" race/roll that's getting buffed. This is the wrong direction...

Deathlord92 · February 2019

grizzly375 wrote: »

For the millionth time, I BEG the devs to go back to what the INTENT of this "balance" is - to whit, to make all races "decent" in all roles, and give each race something "unique."

What the current changes do is simply CHANGE the meta from one race to another, while COMPLETELY missing the intent of making all races capable of running any role.

Again, I respectfully suggest that racial "passives" should ONLY provide that "flavor" (Redguard snare resistance is a great example, as is Dunmer fire resistance, etc). ALL the other aspects of the current and future "passives" should come from a pool, where the player can pick and choose their role. There could be a "warrior," "mage," "guardian," "thief," and "healer" path, each selectable at a given level. Want to be all melee DPS - stick with the "warrior" path, which would give increased physical damage, increased stam, increased stam regen, etc. "Mage" path would mirror with magicka and magicka damage. "Thief" would give stealth improvements and crit increases along with stam or stam return, etc...

As it stands right now, all you're accomplishing is making current "meta" builds junk, driving UNWANTED racial change. You're not broadening our choices, your limiting them, unless a player was previously playing a non-"meta" race/roll that's getting buffed. This is the wrong direction...

Probably the best comment I read on any of the update 21 changes well said and I completely agree with you I love this idea 👍

karthrag_inak · February 2019

Is any dev commentary/explanation ever going to be offered for the rationale behind the massive khajiit change that was just "snuck" in?

Kalle_Demos · February 2019

I'd like to point this out and I agree with this analysis. Some choices are objectively better than others and diversity is lessened further on top of damaging racial identity. All of this achieves the exact opposite of what ZOS claimed to be their goals with re-balancing racials.

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

well someone has to say it....PVE (endgame raids) racial diversity for DD's is gutted with those Patches.
Those are estimated BIS setups, some things are already proven (orc > khajit for sNB for example)

Now on Live we see mostly:
stam DD -> Redguard
Mag DD -> Dunmer, altmer
Healers -> Altmer, Bretons, Argonians
Tanks -> Argonians, Imperials

With PTS 4.3.3 I would reduce those down to:
stam DD -> Orc
Mag DD -> Breton
Healers -> Breton, (maybe Argonians)
Tanks -> Nords, Imperial and Argonian

overall we went from 6 Different Races down to 5
3 of those 5 Races are likely to end up as Tanks.
the Main diversity loss is towards Mag DD and healers, while Tanks got a new viable race with Nords now.
For stam DD's in BIS setups, they just gona roll an Orc and use Lavafood, to make up the sustainloss from moving aways from Redguard.

Here's my Idea, which Passives were good / as balanced as possible by Patches:

4.3.0 Orc, Redguard, Altmer, Nord
4.3.2 Khajit, Breton, Argonian
4.3.3 Imperial, Bosmer

Dunmer got pushed into Hybrid, which IMO is a bad decision, buit jeah why not, let it be a Hybrid for PVP...PVE its prob useless, unless you switch between stam and mag alot, letting you save money for Tokens.

Wildberryjack · February 2019

Bosmer need their stealth bonus back. I get that they want to have them different from Khajiit but they ARE due to kitties also having bonuses to pickpocketing. It's enough. The stealth detect is utterly worthless. Also, give Dunmer back their fire damage bonus because it made them unique.

moonsugar66 · February 2019

The new Bosmer stealth passive adds nothing that is’nt already present. Think for instance, Mage Light and potions. Try again, ESO, and come up something brilliant and not redundant or don’t change it at all.

BloodStorm · February 2019

Mmmm. New high elf racial looks like it works perfect with Blazing shield tanks

. Making my tank stronger and others, awesome.

DaveMoeDee · February 2019

Vanguard1 wrote: »

Fact is no one likes change especially a character change, most the time they nerf a character to allow other characters to be on the same level. Never once thinking that rather than nerfing a class they could gradually increase the other classes to be on par, and the NPCs.

Either way, once everyone gets used to it, then it will be the new normal and this change will be behind us like all the rest. Good conversation though, although it won't change anything, change is coming.

Right, I'm sure they never thought of that. It isn't possible that they consider multiple approaches each time and choose what they think will work best while mitigating risk.

BloodStorm · February 2019

Nicalas wrote: »

Nice cash grab. 1 free race change. Which means I have to spend $300 or reroll everything.

Or have a few perfected characters. Always found it odd people have a bunch of characters they actually mind deleting. To each their own I guess.

PriorityBalle · February 2019

Why oh why on earth, are you guys at zenimax NERFING that races that look slighty good rather than buffing the ones that's being complained about ?!

Zordrage · February 2019

PriorityBalle wrote: »

Why oh why on earth, are you guys at zenimax NERFING that races that look slighty good rather than buffing the ones that's being complained about ?!

Powercreep thats why...

Jaraal · February 2019

rage607 wrote: »

I have an imperial DK health tank with shields based on Max health and with your changes you are now lowering his Max health quite a bit.

That is not an improvement. Please stop messing around with stats.

Tanks are always suffering when these kind of changes are done.

They are doing this solely because of PvP players crying about "unkillable tanks". But players will adapt and still be unkillable. Won't change anything in that regard, but PvE raiders will most certainly suffer with more tanks being one shot, etc.

Anyron · February 2019

Argonians are not even close to be good. Recent nerfs meybe wasnt big, but buffing other racials means argonians are now good for nothing in every role this game has.

Their main problem and source of everything bad is Resourceful passive which looks good but in most cases it is useless.
Even if you count resourceful as good passive, there is only 1k max magicka which is less than on other races and 6% healing done which is better than altmers/ dunmers +250spell damage only when you have 4500+ spell damage unbuffed which is sad. Noone has that number.

So how we are now?

Healer ( worse than)

Altmer - because 2k magicka and 250 spell damage which is better on short fights and if you equip lich, that limitation is gone
Breton - their magicka sustain and extra 1k max magicka makes them superior in both healing and damage to all other Magicka races.
Dunmer - same thing like altmer, more max magicka and spell damage

Only who is weaker than argonians in healing are cats - but if you make crt healing build they are even better

Damage ( worse than)
Only stamina races here are worse magicka dps here, obviously i dont bother to write here which magicka races are better ( all of them).

Tanks (worse than)
Nords - their damage resistance and 500 extra in resource makes them better, unlimate generation is good too
Imperials- their new red Diamond passive makes them on par with argonians, but extra 1k health and 1k stamina makes them much better in tanking
Redguards - even when this is pure stamina race, their sustain is much better than all argonian resources from passive counted together. Cost of skills and over 9,5k stamina per minute is too much.

Cundu_Ertur · February 2019

Just a reminder: taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.

BlueRaven · February 2019

Honest question:

Beyond the niche rolling PvP build. Are bosmers in the meta for anything else. Is there a pve reason to roll a Bosmer over an orc, etc?

The reason I ask is that all the dps passses I see either fail to mention bosmers or if the do it seems like it’s in passing.

I am just wondering if bosmers are a preferred race for, well, anything. Other then a weird pvp build, I guess.

Cundu_Ertur · February 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

Honest question:

Beyond the niche rolling PvP build. Are bosmers in the meta for anything else. Is there a pve reason to roll a Bosmer over an orc, etc?

The reason I ask is that all the dps passses I see either fail to mention bosmers or if the do it seems like it’s in passing.

I am just wondering if bosmers are a preferred race for, well, anything. Other then a weird pvp build, I guess.

"Bosmers make excellent guards," said no lore-book, NPC, or in-game tool-tip. Ever.

HankTwo · February 2019

If you break the passives down Nord seems a bit lacking compared to Orc:

Nord 1500 stamina vs Orc 2000 stamina = Orc wins
Nord 1000 health vs Orc 1000 health = Even
Nord 3960 resistances (77% of Fortified Brass 5-piece) vs Orc 258 weapon damage (86% of Hunding's Rage 5-piece) = Orc wins
Nord ultimate gain (50% of Werewolf Hide 5-piece) vs Orc sprint bonus (over 67% of Fjord's Legacy 5-piece) = Orc wins
Nord frost resistance vs Orc restore health = I'd give that one to the Nord

I have to say that I like the Nord ult generation for my PvP stam DK. Still, it would be a good change to give Nord 2000 stamina, imo, to make them even in that regard with all the other stamina races (Orc, Imperial, Redguard, Bosmer, they all get 2k stam).

Uryel · February 2019

rage607 wrote: »

Won't change anything in that regard, but PvE raiders will most certainly suffer with more tanks being one shot, etc.

Forget PvE raiders, PvE casual are being hit really hard. I play a thief, and it's not roleplay. I sneak everywhere, hit the delve boss and him only, steal [snip], whatever... I'm not into raids, not into veteran stuff, I just like to go wherever I damn well please and laugh as the guards don't see me.

So of course I made a Bosmer. Stealthy, tiny, good with bows, what is there not to love here ? [snip] It makes no sense lorewise, hurts no one in raid contentes, but makes us not-too-casual-but-certainly-not-hardcore players absurdly annoyed. Either I lose my gameplay, or I go khajiit and lose my character's identity. None of which is satisfactory.

But hey, we get a stealth detection bonus ! Super cool, considering there isn't a single stealthed enemy in PvE. And now we can dodge roll for more penetration. Amazing, considering how little use it has in PvE, aside maybe in trials, I wouldn't know.

This update reeks of PvP and screws the non-competitive players really bad. But hey, look ! Dragons ! Necromancers ! Excitement !

Well, I'm not paying one more cent until I have a way to retain my stealth without tuning into a khajiit or taking extreme measures (like full stealth set for a still underperforming stealth level, vampire and looking like I fell from the ugly tree and hit all the branches on the way down, or morphing one of my most powerful skill into a version that doesn't use the ressource I use thus gimping its damage but providing a speed boost, or even better, having to use a PvP skill in PvE that does nothing but boost movement just so I can keep PvE-ing normally).

[edited for baiting & profanity bypass]

Uryel · February 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

Honest question:

Beyond the niche rolling PvP build. Are bosmers in the meta for anything else. Is there a pve reason to roll a Bosmer over an orc, etc?

The reason I ask is that all the dps passses I see either fail to mention bosmers or if the do it seems like it’s in passing.

I am just wondering if bosmers are a preferred race for, well, anything. Other then a weird pvp build, I guess.

Honest answer : they are amazing thieves, both lore-wise and gameplay wise. Gameplay wise, they make great assassins, too.

The +3m bonus to stealth + 1 set that gives +2m +1 set that gives no stealth movement penalty means you can sneak pretty much anywhere, in any restricted area, and having minimal trouble with the guards. You can go through any delve with only minimal combat if you're in a hurry for whatever you came herte for. Stealing is a breeze. And the +10% stealth damage makes for a good klling blow when you need to enter combat. Normal delve mobs, I can one shot from sneak with a heavy attack from my 2 handed sword (once buffed), meaning one less enemy to fight.

And I'm talking about PvE only, of course. I don't PvP. Only went to Cyrodiil for the skyshards, ended up tangled in a fight or two, lost each time, didn't care except for the fact that I had to ride all the way back where I was.

Apparently, the problem with Bosmers in PvP is that they are good snipers. And people complain that snipers are unfair. Well, shoot, just like in real life, where snipers are the most OP ever, unless they take an artillery hit, or you get around them, or avoid being seen, or get behind them unnoticed, or... But hey, it's unfair because if you do nothing of that, they can gank you before you gank them. So, you can't win. So, whining ensues.

And because of that, we can't have good things. We Bosmers players will end up with an entirely useless stealth detection bonus that has no use whatsoever in PvE as there are zero stealthed enemies, but hey, PvP whiners will stop whining. About that, they will soon find something else to complain about. And we PvE somewhat casual players will still be locked with a useless racial passive that breaks characters we spent years working on entirely.

anadandy · February 2019

Uryel wrote: »

Honest answer : they are amazing thieves, both lore-wise and gameplay wise. Gameplay wise, they make great assassins, too.

It's also more than that - Bosmer PVE questers are getting the shaft, whether they are thieves or not. There are entire quests and storylines built around sneaking outside of TG/DB. I was just playing through Morrowind last night and there is SO MUCH SNEAKING. Following runners without being caught, sneaking through restricted areas where the optional objective is to avoid killing anyone. Who better to do that job than a Bosmer? Nope - Bosmer can't be good at anything now but being roly poly pvp-ers, And even then, not too good because we don't want scare the gank-phobics.

Yes, yes - I know anyone can sneak, anyone can do these quests and I know there is some magical mystery stealth change coming but it still really rankles me that my Bosmer, who I specifically chose for a stealthy playstyle is being robbed of her identity and being pigeonholed into a one trick pony.

Cundu_Ertur · February 2019

Uryel wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Honest question:

Beyond the niche rolling PvP build. Are bosmers in the meta for anything else. Is there a pve reason to roll a Bosmer over an orc, etc?

The reason I ask is that all the dps passses I see either fail to mention bosmers or if the do it seems like it’s in passing.

I am just wondering if bosmers are a preferred race for, well, anything. Other then a weird pvp build, I guess.

Honest answer : they are amazing thieves, both lore-wise and gameplay wise. Gameplay wise, they make great assassins, too.

NOW they are, sure, but after this change, no. And I think Raven's asking what the Bosmer meta is after this ridiculous change goes in.

BlueRaven · February 2019

Honest question:

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Honest question:

Beyond the niche rolling PvP build. Are bosmers in the meta for anything else. Is there a pve reason to roll a Bosmer over an orc, etc?

The reason I ask is that all the dps passses I see either fail to mention bosmers or if the do it seems like it’s in passing.

I am just wondering if bosmers are a preferred race for, well, anything. Other then a weird pvp build, I guess.

Honest answer : they are amazing thieves, both lore-wise and gameplay wise. Gameplay wise, they make great assassins, too.

NOW they are, sure, but after this change, no. And I think Raven's asking what the Bosmer meta is after this ridiculous change goes in.

Yes, this. I guess I was not very clear on my question.

Uryel · February 2019

My bad then. I guess they will be the least favorite for everything, then. Except maybe cliff jumping, with the fall damage reduction passive.

The fact that the flavour passive is way better than the third one that we actually need to spend skillpoints on says it all, really.

BlueRaven · February 2019

Uryel wrote: »

My bad then. I guess they will be the least favorite for everything, then. Except maybe cliff jumping, with the fall damage reduction passive.

The fact that the flavour passive is way better than the third one that we actually need to spend skillpoints on says it all, really.

Exactly! The real Bosmer passive is the three extra skill points we get by not putting points into hunters eye. (Not that I needed skill points.)

Cundu_Ertur · February 2019

You can put them in the Jewelry crafting hireling.
Oh, wait...

The_Lex · February 2019

As I posted in another thread:

I'd like to know which developer was truly committed to the Elder Scrolls series and universe before coming to ESO. By committed, I mean, more than a few play-throughs of a game to catch the flavor of the series or because the game was "cool to play" when it was released. Some of these racial passives show zero basis in established lore. Sure, they can be "shoehorned" into lore somehow, but that's not the same thing. And the established lore surrounding racial abilities can be made to work with an MMO - so that's no excuse either.

Cundu_Ertur · February 2019

Lex, I think the answer is none.