Joy_Division wrote: »

Nice! People would be much better off watching the entirety of the videos than devoting the same amount of time crying how their class was ruined.

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Minno

According to the videos I've seen Malcolm is a player who does two things extremely well - use terrain/LoS and have the feel for the offensive window. So, yes, compared to your average Sorc he is really good in my opinion. My comment wasn't a knock against Malcolm or his guide - it was to point out that @Joy_Division saying a class isn't broken because one of the best players on it can make it work still is somewhat problematic. Should have quoted correctly though, my mistake.

I didn't say the class isn't broken. I said it would be more productive to watch the video than come onto these forums and whine - based on hearsay, assumption, speculation, not actual experience - that their class sucks now.

Because just whining on these forums based on nothing, no evidence, no videos, no math, no demonstration of even trying to make use of the new mechanics, has been so historically helpful in convincing ZOS to revert the decisions they made. There is an absolute track record of success that we can point to and see just how effective that route is.

You don't think it would more compelling to ZOS to demonstrate that an honest and intelligent effort was made in order to work with the changes to make a build that is effective and fun to play? That an assessment of the class's strengths and weaknesses and what ought to be looked into from a specific and multi-varied analysis is perhaps a little more valuable than "class sucks, it can only kill potatoes now."? That the sort of feedback coming from an very in-depth and up-to-date current analysis as such provided by Malcolm would not provide superior feedback than the speculative rants that sees the class through what it can no longer do, rather than how the class actually is performing after the changes were made?

And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?
Resulting in the statement: Sorc is a potatomasher?

Edit: Take the latest EU tournament as an example. Dan (the only magica sorc) played objectively very well and probably had better movement than any of his opponents.
He was only able to win one fight by killing his opponent - and that only after the judges changed the skill loadout of both players to lower their defense.

This perfectly showcases the issues of the class and why it gets mostly labled a potatomasher by experienced players. It is somewhat easy to not die to a sorc. Every class has hardcounters for parts or the entirety of their burst combo.
The burst is delayed and telegraphed (even worse since murkmire fragment delay) which makes utilizing dodge, block or any class based defense a lot easier than against any other class.
It´s further reinforced by sorc being a pure burst class - no access to sustained pressure via class skills and there is no access to sustained pressure from destruction staff. This results in sorc being as easily countered as having enough effective HP (mitigation + HP) to simply tank the burst and heal up.
Murkmire aggravated these issues by making barspace problems - which had been highlighted in the very first classrep meeting with the devs - worse because sorc now needs to slot dedicated healing (due to the healing ward nerfs) and an armor skill on top of the previously already cluttered bars.
I could now continue how CC is also a massive issue due purely burst dmg and how that in combination with shields (burst defense + high requirement of gcds for defense) leads to utilizing a cc that deals no dmg being massively stupid if you ever want to kill an opponent (taking frag cc was bad, runecage with no dmg at all is terrible, masterstaff is still almost mandatory).
But i´ll stop here - because i´ve gone this way on multiple different occasions - and it´s quite frankly tiring to simply always read the same thing about stopping to whine and provide constructive feedback.

The feedback is there. Constructive and nonconstructive. Take it and stop passing the ball back to the players.
Maybe when the large majority of feedback is negative and getting increasingly nonconstructive it´s because people are getting tired of repeating the same things with literally nothing getting adressed but rather things are objectively getting worse (barspace, lack of healing to name two specifically).

Part of this is due to obliviondmg being broken. But since it seems oblivion dmg isn´t going anywhere this is where the issues of the class lie.

If it makes you feel better, then go ahead and whine.

The answer the devs gave us in the last class rep meeting was that offensive changes were under development (which specifically they were not inclined to tell us). This strongly suggests to me that the devs are aware of what you say, namely that that sorcerers need reform offensively, and are making changes in that direction. Since the devs are already doing such, they don;t need to be convinced by whining, they need relevant, up-to-date, and accurate feedback such that the changes they do make are both precise and effective in addressing the problem areas of the class. In short, the devs don't need convincing, they need guidance.

To get back to your original question of: "And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?", from what ZOS told us in the meeting, the answer is changes and attempted improvements upcoming to how sorcerers play offensively. So incoherent whining about only being a potato-masher is not nearly going to be productive because ZOS does not to be convinced of that premise. From what they said at the meeting, it sounds like sorcerers are in the same situation that templars were in about 6 months ago, when ZOS (finally) resolved to make fundamental changes to the class because their mechanics were obsolete. If you are convinced Wrobel doesn't have a clue about sorcerers, then I personally would suggest you and other sorcerers devote more time identifying what offensive changes would profit sorcs since ZOS has already indicated they are working in that direction.
Sorc priority ought to be to ensure that changes that are made are the correct ones. That's not something whining is conducive too. IMHO of course.

You say this as if no one gave detailed feedback about the issues of the class and ways to fix them. There are dozens of threads with detailed feedback about the class. Hell even when it comes to shields there were dozens of threads with their problems and what exactly needed to be nerfed and wrobel actually believed that putting a cast time on shields was the solution while he is also wasting everyone's time, buffing and nerfing rune cage for about a year now and still no one knows what the hell he is trying to do with that skill. And you are here telling people why they dont bother with feedback anymore or why the lost their faith? Seriously?

This whole situation with balance changes every patch is so screwed up to the point where it is a big surprise when he actually manages to get something right.

Derra wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Now you should all go and apologise to Malcolm for derailing his thread.. I mean its not like he asked for it by picking a dodgy name for his build...

Atleast we keep it at the top

He did good work here.

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Minno

According to the videos I've seen Malcolm is a player who does two things extremely well - use terrain/LoS and have the feel for the offensive window. So, yes, compared to your average Sorc he is really good in my opinion. My comment wasn't a knock against Malcolm or his guide - it was to point out that @Joy_Division saying a class isn't broken because one of the best players on it can make it work still is somewhat problematic. Should have quoted correctly though, my mistake.

I didn't say the class isn't broken. I said it would be more productive to watch the video than come onto these forums and whine - based on hearsay, assumption, speculation, not actual experience - that their class sucks now.

Because just whining on these forums based on nothing, no evidence, no videos, no math, no demonstration of even trying to make use of the new mechanics, has been so historically helpful in convincing ZOS to revert the decisions they made. There is an absolute track record of success that we can point to and see just how effective that route is.

You don't think it would more compelling to ZOS to demonstrate that an honest and intelligent effort was made in order to work with the changes to make a build that is effective and fun to play? That an assessment of the class's strengths and weaknesses and what ought to be looked into from a specific and multi-varied analysis is perhaps a little more valuable than "class sucks, it can only kill potatoes now."? That the sort of feedback coming from an very in-depth and up-to-date current analysis as such provided by Malcolm would not provide superior feedback than the speculative rants that sees the class through what it can no longer do, rather than how the class actually is performing after the changes were made?

And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?
Resulting in the statement: Sorc is a potatomasher?

Edit: Take the latest EU tournament as an example. Dan (the only magica sorc) played objectively very well and probably had better movement than any of his opponents.
He was only able to win one fight by killing his opponent - and that only after the judges changed the skill loadout of both players to lower their defense.

This perfectly showcases the issues of the class and why it gets mostly labled a potatomasher by experienced players. It is somewhat easy to not die to a sorc. Every class has hardcounters for parts or the entirety of their burst combo.
The burst is delayed and telegraphed (even worse since murkmire fragment delay) which makes utilizing dodge, block or any class based defense a lot easier than against any other class.
It´s further reinforced by sorc being a pure burst class - no access to sustained pressure via class skills and there is no access to sustained pressure from destruction staff. This results in sorc being as easily countered as having enough effective HP (mitigation + HP) to simply tank the burst and heal up.
Murkmire aggravated these issues by making barspace problems - which had been highlighted in the very first classrep meeting with the devs - worse because sorc now needs to slot dedicated healing (due to the healing ward nerfs) and an armor skill on top of the previously already cluttered bars.
I could now continue how CC is also a massive issue due purely burst dmg and how that in combination with shields (burst defense + high requirement of gcds for defense) leads to utilizing a cc that deals no dmg being massively stupid if you ever want to kill an opponent (taking frag cc was bad, runecage with no dmg at all is terrible, masterstaff is still almost mandatory).
But i´ll stop here - because i´ve gone this way on multiple different occasions - and it´s quite frankly tiring to simply always read the same thing about stopping to whine and provide constructive feedback.

The feedback is there. Constructive and nonconstructive. Take it and stop passing the ball back to the players.
Maybe when the large majority of feedback is negative and getting increasingly nonconstructive it´s because people are getting tired of repeating the same things with literally nothing getting adressed but rather things are objectively getting worse (barspace, lack of healing to name two specifically).

Part of this is due to obliviondmg being broken. But since it seems oblivion dmg isn´t going anywhere this is where the issues of the class lie.

If it makes you feel better, then go ahead and whine.

The answer the devs gave us in the last class rep meeting was that offensive changes were under development (which specifically they were not inclined to tell us). This strongly suggests to me that the devs are aware of what you say, namely that that sorcerers need reform offensively, and are making changes in that direction. Since the devs are already doing such, they don;t need to be convinced by whining, they need relevant, up-to-date, and accurate feedback such that the changes they do make are both precise and effective in addressing the problem areas of the class. In short, the devs don't need convincing, they need guidance.

To get back to your original question of: "And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?", from what ZOS told us in the meeting, the answer is changes and attempted improvements upcoming to how sorcerers play offensively. So incoherent whining about only being a potato-masher is not nearly going to be productive because ZOS does not to be convinced of that premise. From what they said at the meeting, it sounds like sorcerers are in the same situation that templars were in about 6 months ago, when ZOS (finally) resolved to make fundamental changes to the class because their mechanics were obsolete. If you are convinced Wrobel doesn't have a clue about sorcerers, then I personally would suggest you and other sorcerers devote more time identifying what offensive changes would profit sorcs since ZOS has already indicated they are working in that direction.
Sorc priority ought to be to ensure that changes that are made are the correct ones. That's not something whining is conducive too. IMHO of course.

I think you´ll rarely see me whining and if i do it´s about the attitude and carelessness displayed towards normal players rather than the class. I´m still doing relatively well on my sorc - but i´ve been playing the class for over 4 years now and would put myself in the upper 25% of open world sorc players.

What i´m saying is that i can look past my personal experience and look at how the average sorc i meet in cyro performs and atleast try to imagine how they must feel.
I can understand why people whine - and i think the reps should too.

As far as guidance for offensive changes goes - i´ve tried to briefly explain why having a non damaging gcd for cc on a class with no sustained pressure is bad/doesn´t work.
The other problems actually don´t lie directly with sorc offense (imo) but rather with defense vs projectiles in general (which is too easy/rewarding), delayed burst being a one trick pony and the class needing too many defensive abilities/slots now due to shield changes/healingward change and obliviondmg.

Joy_Division wrote: »

No, I'm not saying don't bother with feedback. I am saying if they do give feedback, it should be the sort that Malcolm provided.

But that´s an issue imo. If you deem feedback only acceptable from a source that has the time to create a 50 minute video on the class that´s problematic.
It´s also problematic as maybe someone else runs into different issues malcolm might be running into because they play different builds or don´t exclusively solo pvp - while not having the same time or dedication to create something you label as worthy feedback.

IMO the reps should be knowledgeable enough about the game and atleast one or two classes to get something even from whiney feedback and debateably nonconstructive like "runecage is useless crap now." and be able to extrapolate where the issues with the ability lie when looking at the class and it´s toolkit.
That´s why you were chosen no? Because you supposedly understand the game well.

You shouldn´t require feedback that explains the game to you.
But that´s just my opinion i guess.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Minno

According to the videos I've seen Malcolm is a player who does two things extremely well - use terrain/LoS and have the feel for the offensive window. So, yes, compared to your average Sorc he is really good in my opinion. My comment wasn't a knock against Malcolm or his guide - it was to point out that @Joy_Division saying a class isn't broken because one of the best players on it can make it work still is somewhat problematic. Should have quoted correctly though, my mistake.

I didn't say the class isn't broken. I said it would be more productive to watch the video than come onto these forums and whine - based on hearsay, assumption, speculation, not actual experience - that their class sucks now.

Because just whining on these forums based on nothing, no evidence, no videos, no math, no demonstration of even trying to make use of the new mechanics, has been so historically helpful in convincing ZOS to revert the decisions they made. There is an absolute track record of success that we can point to and see just how effective that route is.

You don't think it would more compelling to ZOS to demonstrate that an honest and intelligent effort was made in order to work with the changes to make a build that is effective and fun to play? That an assessment of the class's strengths and weaknesses and what ought to be looked into from a specific and multi-varied analysis is perhaps a little more valuable than "class sucks, it can only kill potatoes now."? That the sort of feedback coming from an very in-depth and up-to-date current analysis as such provided by Malcolm would not provide superior feedback than the speculative rants that sees the class through what it can no longer do, rather than how the class actually is performing after the changes were made?

And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?
Resulting in the statement: Sorc is a potatomasher?

Edit: Take the latest EU tournament as an example. Dan (the only magica sorc) played objectively very well and probably had better movement than any of his opponents.
He was only able to win one fight by killing his opponent - and that only after the judges changed the skill loadout of both players to lower their defense.

This perfectly showcases the issues of the class and why it gets mostly labled a potatomasher by experienced players. It is somewhat easy to not die to a sorc. Every class has hardcounters for parts or the entirety of their burst combo.
The burst is delayed and telegraphed (even worse since murkmire fragment delay) which makes utilizing dodge, block or any class based defense a lot easier than against any other class.
It´s further reinforced by sorc being a pure burst class - no access to sustained pressure via class skills and there is no access to sustained pressure from destruction staff. This results in sorc being as easily countered as having enough effective HP (mitigation + HP) to simply tank the burst and heal up.
Murkmire aggravated these issues by making barspace problems - which had been highlighted in the very first classrep meeting with the devs - worse because sorc now needs to slot dedicated healing (due to the healing ward nerfs) and an armor skill on top of the previously already cluttered bars.
I could now continue how CC is also a massive issue due purely burst dmg and how that in combination with shields (burst defense + high requirement of gcds for defense) leads to utilizing a cc that deals no dmg being massively stupid if you ever want to kill an opponent (taking frag cc was bad, runecage with no dmg at all is terrible, masterstaff is still almost mandatory).
But i´ll stop here - because i´ve gone this way on multiple different occasions - and it´s quite frankly tiring to simply always read the same thing about stopping to whine and provide constructive feedback.

The feedback is there. Constructive and nonconstructive. Take it and stop passing the ball back to the players.
Maybe when the large majority of feedback is negative and getting increasingly nonconstructive it´s because people are getting tired of repeating the same things with literally nothing getting adressed but rather things are objectively getting worse (barspace, lack of healing to name two specifically).

Part of this is due to obliviondmg being broken. But since it seems oblivion dmg isn´t going anywhere this is where the issues of the class lie.

If it makes you feel better, then go ahead and whine.

The answer the devs gave us in the last class rep meeting was that offensive changes were under development (which specifically they were not inclined to tell us). This strongly suggests to me that the devs are aware of what you say, namely that that sorcerers need reform offensively, and are making changes in that direction. Since the devs are already doing such, they don;t need to be convinced by whining, they need relevant, up-to-date, and accurate feedback such that the changes they do make are both precise and effective in addressing the problem areas of the class. In short, the devs don't need convincing, they need guidance.

To get back to your original question of: "And what if the end result of making such an analysis is - it´s objectively bad when put to the test against well theorycrafted top end builds of other classes?", from what ZOS told us in the meeting, the answer is changes and attempted improvements upcoming to how sorcerers play offensively. So incoherent whining about only being a potato-masher is not nearly going to be productive because ZOS does not to be convinced of that premise. From what they said at the meeting, it sounds like sorcerers are in the same situation that templars were in about 6 months ago, when ZOS (finally) resolved to make fundamental changes to the class because their mechanics were obsolete. If you are convinced Wrobel doesn't have a clue about sorcerers, then I personally would suggest you and other sorcerers devote more time identifying what offensive changes would profit sorcs since ZOS has already indicated they are working in that direction.
Sorc priority ought to be to ensure that changes that are made are the correct ones. That's not something whining is conducive too. IMHO of course.

I think you´ll rarely see me whining and if i do it´s about the attitude and carelessness displayed towards normal players rather than the class. I´m still doing relatively well on my sorc - but i´ve been playing the class for over 4 years now and would put myself in the upper 25% of open world sorc players.

What i´m saying is that i can look past my personal experience and look at how the average sorc i meet in cyro performs and atleast try to imagine how they must feel.
I can understand why people whine - and i think the reps should too.

As far as guidance for offensive changes goes - i´ve tried to briefly explain why having a non damaging gcd for cc on a class with no sustained pressure is bad/doesn´t work.
The other problems actually don´t lie directly with sorc offense (imo) but rather with defense vs projectiles in general (which is too easy/rewarding), delayed burst being a one trick pony and the class needing too many defensive abilities/slots now due to shield changes/healingward change and obliviondmg.

Joy_Division wrote: »

No, I'm not saying don't bother with feedback. I am saying if they do give feedback, it should be the sort that Malcolm provided.

But that´s an issue imo. If you deem feedback only acceptable from a source that has the time to create a 50 minute video on the class that´s problematic.
It´s also problematic as maybe someone else runs into different issues malcolm might be running into because they play different builds or don´t exclusively solo pvp - while not having the same time or dedication to create something you label as worthy feedback.

IMO the reps should be knowledgeable enough about the game and atleast one or two classes to get something even from whiney feedback and debateably nonconstructive like "runecage is useless crap now." and be able to extrapolate where the issues with the ability lie when looking at the class and it´s toolkit.
That´s why you were chosen no? Because you supposedly understand the game well.

You shouldn´t require feedback that explains the game to you.
But that´s just my opinion i guess.

No, you don't whine. You are on a short list of people in that category.

I too can understand why sorcerers would whine. Hell, the class I mained was a train-wreck of obsolete mechanics being forced to stand in a dumb "house" while the game moved toward mobility (even in PvE) and got hit with dumb nerfs like losing the shards stun before it finally got an update the past two patches. But I've heard what the devs had said and it's not something in which whining is going to be productive. It's not that I deem only Malcom's feedback "acceptable," it's that anyone who watched that video will get to the heart of how the class functions (and does not) after a legitimate attempt to make the best of the changes ZOS made. That will help tell ZOS where they need to go. Not "class sucks, only can kill potatoes."

People don't have to make 50 minute videos. And yes, we are generally capable of interpreting what people mean by "runecage is useless crap now." Stiles and Fear are two of the best sorcerer PVE players on the planet. 5 of us have thousands of hours of /played on sorcerers in all types of PvP environments. But ZOS does not just get feedback from us. They still look at the forums, still look at /feedback, still look how their customers are playing the game, still have their own internal testing, still get information elsewhere from the 12 of us. And there are certain issues where ZOS's conclusions, which they believe are accurate and informed, differ from the reps's conclusions, which we feel are accurate and informed. What's going to help convince ZOS that our interpretation of the data is more suitable than theirs? Not whining, I can say that much.

I'm tired of being the bad guy for telling sorcerers what they don't want to hear. If sorcerers want to come on these forums and rant, thinking that it will spur ZOS to make productive and relevant changes, then all the more power to them. The last word from ZOS was that they were going to be making fundamental changes to sorcerer's offensively. If people want to express their anger in the belief that is the best method of guidance for these changes, then best of luck.

MalcolM24 wrote: »

@Vapirko
I use defending for restoration staff, and sharpened for destruction staff, with the escapist's poison. Sharpened is slightly more dmg than nirn. I really like the escapist's poison, but infused shock glyphs is another very good option for the destro staff. You have more dmg with glyphs, but less control (not only cause you can't root the enemy anymore, but also because the cc immunity uptime from escapist's poison is very good).

Lightning staff is about as good as the fire staff, cause lightning reach is more subtle (with that I mean it hits more, it's harder to avoid). It's sort of the same logic as the escapist's poison, the problem with sorc dmg isn't that it's low, it's that it's too easy to avoid. Extra control (lightning reach, escapists) is more valuable because of that imo.
Next to that you also get more concussion procs and more ult dmg form the lightning staff ofc.

If you don't have any arena staves it's still better to use a willpower staff instead of a random one.