Not really loving some of the design choices

pjwrwb17_ESO · April 2014

Been playing since 5 day head-start and a few beta weekends. Finally made it past 16 on the live servers and thought I would share my views for whoever cares before I (probably) go back to something else. Sad, because I really had hopes for this one.

Things I like
I won't go into these in any great detail, they pretty much speak for themselves.

Looks pretty
Nice storyline. It's ES so it should be good.
intergrated open world

Things I dislike
This is the list of the main factors that make the game un-fun for me.

Single-use nodes.

Ran BC in a PUG. One person knew it well, and ran ahead to all the lootable chest nodes. This is a dreadful mechanic, esp. in a group dungeon. At least group dungeons should have everybody-loots chests.

It's also bad in the general landscape; in busy times foraging can be impossible, and its just a boring race to see who gets to a node first. When I get it I feel guilty, when someone else gets it I feel cheated.

They are basically a no-win POS.
The grouping UI is very poor
It is inflexible, uninformative and not usefully customizable.
- Half the time I end up leader of a group when all I want is to join a competent group.
- The leader of a group disconnected but remained leader. It is not entirely clear what a leader is useful for, but we could not be certain than the group was still being advertized. It should fall to someone else. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't
- there is no way to see what groups are running. I might be on another character and want to see what else is being run at different levels
- After several failed BC runs which, among other things, level 9s managed to join somehow, I would like to be able to set my own level range and/or vet people joining.
The in-game support UI is almost useless.
It blocks action and closes when you have to kill stuff. It should be a chat box. In some places waiting in a modal dialogue for in-game support is not an option.
The discrepancy between areas and group dungeons.
A level 12 quest is harder than a level 15 area. This just seems daft. Not only does it speak to a complete failure to prepare players for milestones, it also makes for substantial disappointment when a player at level 16 crashes and burns in a level 12 quest.

I am sure that there are players out there who can cruise through BC with their hands tied behind their back, but that does not change the fact that it is poorly balanced compared to content at the same or higher levels.
The monster 'clump' mechanics
There seems to be no way to draw a single monster from a 'clump' of monsters. Some are placed individually, but others are inextricably linked. This is probably by design, but makes for some solo-unfriendly areas in a game that seems largely designed for soloing.
The need for add-ons
Without addons you actually have no idea what killed you. With addons you have a vague idea if you can read fast.

What kind of a game deliberately limits the ability of a player to learn from their mistakes?
Other problems (much less important)
Inventory micro-management: covered elsewhere by many many people
Crafting using 'real' skill points: meaning a crafter sacrifices combat effectiveness
Combat: limited choices and few tactical options. Can't hide behind stuff, can't use more than 6 abilities (before L15). Most of the decisions are about which 4-5 buttons I want to mash in the 1-2 roles I may have in combat.

Bottom Line

ISTM that it's two games in one: a badly done group-based game and a well-done single player game. It needs to decide what it wants to be.

Laura · April 2014

1.) I agree with this in group dungeons only. Really though it isn't a big deal except for chests.

2.) I can't really disagree with this. Its inconvenient and something I hope they eventually change. This isn't something that makes it a "poor" multiplayer game though. Admittedly I haven't had to pug I always pull people from guild though. and even as the healer I haven't had much trouble

3.) Agreed. this is one of those "WHAT WERE THEY THINKING" things.

4.) I haven't experienced this so I am assuming this is something you are dealing with on your faction and not mine. I do like that some quests are harder than others it shouldn't ALWAYS ramp up. if you are dealing with the "end quest" of a long chain where you are dealing with a tough boss it should be harder than "kill these bandit dudes"

5.) I haven't had issues with this. I just use some CC abilities and adapt. I don't know if all classes have this option if they don't then I agree.

6.) I don't use addons and I would consider myself pretty damn good at this. I actually find the UI refreshing. Though this argument is moot because they already said they are addressing this in the first content patch.

Overall I agree but I don't think it makes it a bad game for multiplayer per say. Some little flaws but thankfully the nature of an MMO leads to evolution.

Bloodmonarch · April 2014

Its fair enough that you post your thoughts on the design decisions of the game, however, looking at your complaints, it looks like its just not the game for you, rather than being a problem with the game itself.

It sounds like you just want a game on rails, where everything is nicely laid out, and all in the right place at the right time. In my opinion. that's the beauty of ESO, it breaks that mould. Its not some scripted game that you run here, do this, run there, do that, follow this, follow that; all the time the game being supremely tailored to your level, always making sure it doesn't get too difficult. If a level 12 area is too tough for your class at level 16, get help, or go somewhere else and return later.

Not being able to single pull is not some expected feature that 'has' to be in a game....again this is where ESO differs...everything isn't always cut and dried that you 'will' be able to go up to a group a mops and take them all down by pulling one at a time.

Single use nodes is also getting away from the format of everything laid out for you, to just cruise through, without any delay, in your progress onwards and upwards.

The UI is a non issue, if an addon fills a gap in the UI that you specifically need, its no problem, just get the addon, its not like they cost money.

The skill system also goes in a different direction, where you can be anything that you want to be. There is enough skill points to skill up in multiple crafting professions and multiple combat professions, but you have to pre-plan and choose what combat role you are going to fill, prior to any given situation. When you are in combat 2 sets (with weapon swap) of 5 skills and an ultimate is more than enough.

I played WoW for years and although I could hardly see what was going on in the game because of all the tool bars, Icons and addons on my screen, I rarely used more than 5 or 6 abilities in any one fight.

daveraab16_ESO · April 2014

The problem is that actually it isn't a well done single player game because its compromised by being a standard MMO. Having to deal with the immersion killer of hordes of people running around you at all times. the static nature of the world, mob camps. Everything screams MMO themepark while your playing and that just leaves me feeling cold to it. Thats without even getting started of the futility if such meaningless quests being full voiced or the ok for an MMO but terrible for a single player game combat mechanics.

arondight · April 2014

Just to add one point where ESO fails badly:

It's not social.

What do I mean by that? If you want to play with a friend, your spouse or your son or whatever, you practically need to make a special character for this. Sure, when the other's not online, you can still play. But if you do quests, prepare to not even see the other character while they're doing that quest. The quest-phasing practically forbids you from continuing to play when the other logs off.

Bhakura · April 2014

What Bloodmonarch said. All the points you mentioned are all the points i like. So its a race to a resourcenode, what, cant take a bit of competition? So a guy runs up to chests in dungeons, theres tons of them and not only chests, i doubt he took all of them, some places have even more then one, its impossible for him to take them all unless you let him.
I ran quite a few dungeon runs already, places ive been before i still discover new chests other people just ran past. Gotta keep your eyes open and check all sorts of weird corners, chances are youll find a heavy sack or chest with loot.

On your 4th point. Pretty sure you find it harder because there wasnt 20-30 people around doing the same quest as you and all hitting the last boss or something.
It is indeed a problem because people cant learn their character this way. End boss fights should all be solo instanced or form a group to do it, not just everyone running up charge of one or two attacks and the thing dies. Then those people form up to join a dungeon and have no clue how to defeat things because there isnt 20-30 people around.
This pretty much my only dislike on the game, i wanna finish the fights i started myself, but it seems near impossible as there is always someone charging in and making it totally no challenge. If i need help ill ask thank you very much, and i dont care if i die. Testing your metal with this system is very difficult as you are rarely alone doing something. Its the one thing i like to do most in games.

On 7, there is totally no downside on needing the same skillpoints for crafting as fighting, im at a point where i dont even know where to put skillpoints in. Theres tons of skyshards, quests that give skillpoints, and tbh i dont see how you can complain about it. Ever considered going to cyrodill and hunt skyshards there? Theres 45 (!) to grab there, 15 skill points, come tell me again youre having trouble with skillpoints. Yes cyrodill is a huge place and not everything is very friendly towards you. So what, i had alot of fun collecting the 15 AD skyshards and it even gave me purples and tons of blue items, how can you not like that.

Darkro · April 2014

All I saw is whine from someone that is to lazy to learn the game and wants everything to be easy.

1. I have played BC and have meet some of the most awesome people. Last group I found we actually cleared all the 3x 12-15 lvl range dungeons together and added each other to friends for future endeavors. Experience is power, learn and stop being lazy and you will be the one getting all the chest. I do however agree they should be made group wide like boss loot drops.
2. Grouping UI is fine, the game its not even 1 week old and you complain about something that really has little to no importance. At least in the over 8 dungeon runs I have made, I never had any issue.
3. Irelevant, I personally like it.
4. Yes let’s compare a 12 lvl cool elite monster quest with a lvl 15 random crappy monster area. It’s like comparing a 1.7 meter guy who has years of martial arts training with a 2 meter skinny guy who can’t even walk properly. Guess who would win? Again you expect stuff to be given to you freely.
5. Single monster pulls? Are you even serious about this one? In what world would you engage a group of people, beat one up and have the rest watch up and wait in line for you to pick one at a time.
6. If your bad you know what happened, if you played the game using your brain for more than 2 hours, you will know exactly what happened, with or without add-ons. Also this is a elder scroll game, go back to your scrub wow if you want someone else to wipe ur arse because you can’t do it yourself.
7. Again, this is an Elder scroll game, not your day to day lame copy of wow. Crafting always used skill pints here. So again invalid point.
The reason we are limited to 5-6 abilities is because otherwise we would have all the arsenal in the world, not to mention, everyone would be doing everything. Be happy you actually have 6 buttons and not only 2-3 as in previous iteration of Elder Scrolls.
All in all you opinion is based on your experience with games like wow or other games that have catered to casual and lazy people(which btw I have played for 6 years at a much higher level than you will ever do and in the end I got bored with it because it starting to spoon feed me). You are whining because it does not fit your personal agenda. Well let me tell you, NO ONE is forcing you to play. So do us all a favor and go back to your casual game where you get stuff for free. Most of us will live on and be happy about it.

krapmyself · April 2014

We only use 5 abilities, not counting our ultimate because if you were able to use all your abilities, you would still die, because you would have no mana or stamina left from using too many abilities.

There is a reason the right mouse button attacks when you tap it and heavy attacks when you hold it. There is a reason the right mouse button blocks when you hold it. There is a reason pressing the left mouse button while holding the right mouse button does a bash attack. There is a reason for the dodge. These are fundamental aspects of ESO combat. If you're just running around blasting all your abilities during a fight, you will fail over and over again.

In this regard, you seem to be coming into the game with the mindset of a MMO player who has spent too many years playing tab target whack-a-mole games, where you click a target, press several buttons, and move to the next target. Like World of Warcraft, Rift, and Everquest.

This is not one of those games.

You can try Wildstar when it comes out, it has some similarities to those kind of games, but you will find it too has a very limited action bar (8 abilities), no auto attack to speak of, significant resource management during fights, and requires you to manually aim ALL of your attacks. (just like this game).

This is the new age of MMOs. The latency technology is starting to catch up with action oriented games, and this is the direction MMOs are going.

pjwrwb17_ESO · April 2014

krapmyself wrote: »

...if you were able to use all your abilities...you would have no mana or stamina left

Or...one would make rational and time-critical decision about what to use and when.

krapmyself wrote: »

There is a reason ...

Yeah, heavy attacks, dodging, blocking whatever are all things with which I am familiar. DDO, for example, has them all an more. If ESO didn't have them it would be a serious worry. The fact ESO has no cover is already a worry. If we want to discuss the inadequacies of ESO combat, move it to another thread because, as I stated in my original post, it's only a minor worry to me -- I expect it will get better.

Several People wrote:

"You want easy button, you want WoW, suck it up" (to paraphrase)

Nothing could be further from the truth. I played WoW for all of 3 hours and hated it. I watched relatives play it endlessly and the wisdom of my decision was confirmed.

I played EVE for many years, and have played DDO since it began. The richness and complexity of both games, in terms of combat and build complexity, and overall fun, dwarfs what I have seen so far in ESO.

Many people attack me because they assume I come from a WoW background and want a clone, then go on to say they played WoW for years. For those people I can understand this us a huge step up. For me, it is a step down.

If WoW rated 0 on a scale and EVE/DDO rated 10 in terms of complexity/interest/variability/choice, then ESO would rate perhaps 3.

A few People wrote:

"I like X, give the game time"
or
"Don't play if you don't like it."

Fair enough; problem is that with everyone saying "I like X", without saying "But I would prefer they spend time on Y", there is no serious player input into which features are changed/improved/updated. It's called constructive criticism.

arondight wrote: »

Just to add one point where ESO fails badly:
It's not social.

I agree. The node mechanics, sparse need (or benefit) from grouping and whole world mechanic lead to the best, most productive and fun play being solo. It's part of the reason I said it's a schizophrenic game.

daveraab16_ESO wrote: »

...Having to deal with the immersion killer of hordes of people running around you at all times...

This made me laugh as I remembered listening to a classic ES monologue from a ghost and a bunch of other players blundered though killing stuff. Does kind of destroy the ES-moment.

That said, I do think they made a good and brave choice to twy to keep the ES flavour front and centre. I am not really sure what they can do differently here; for 90% of all content other players are more of an annoyance than anything else.

But I do look forward to seeing how it evolves; it is probably one of the most interesting design choices they made.

Laura wrote: »

4.) I haven't experienced this so I am assuming this is something you are dealing with on your faction and not mine

This is probably just a misunderstanding, I am not sure I was as clear as I should have been. I was referring to the disparity between the level 12 group quests vs any of the level 15 'normal' quests.

Laura wrote: »

5.) I haven't had issues with this. I just use some CC abilities and adapt. I don't know if all classes have this option if they don't then I agree.

Not a problem in anything but group dungeons with a weak PUG.

Laura wrote: »

Though this argument is moot because they already said they are addressing this in the first content patch.

Excellent! Can you point me to a link?

Krynethos · April 2014

daveraab16_ESO wrote: »
...Having to deal with the immersion killer of hordes of people running around you at all times...

This is honestly my biggest issue with the game so far. Solo instancing story quests is a must for me.

The decision to go to the older style of node loot does confuse me, but apparently some people seem to like it. As long as there are enough nodes I am neutral to this so far.

Something that has been bugging me on this forum, however, are people essentially saying "Oh you don't like something? This must not be the game for you."

You can give constructive criticism on features you think could be better or need to be removed to MAKE it the perfect game for you. The Devs wont change it if they don't know.

If you like the feature as it is, just say so. There is no need to bash constructive criticism. Just say you don't agree and explain why.

Bhakura · April 2014

krapmyself wrote: »

This is the new age of MMOs. The latency technology is starting to catch up with action oriented games, and this is the direction MMOs are going.

And its about friggin time. personally i find people boasting about skill to play mmo hilarious ... what skill? Being better geared is not skilled.

Ohioastro · April 2014

Krynethos wrote: »

daveraab16_ESO wrote: »
...Having to deal with the immersion killer of hordes of people running around you at all times...

This is honestly my biggest issue with the game so far. Solo instancing story quests is a must for me.

The decision to go to the older style of node loot does confuse me, but apparently some people seem to like it. As long as there are enough nodes I am neutral to this so far.

Something that has been bugging me on this forum, however, are people essentially saying "Oh you don't like something? This must not be the game for you."

You can give constructive criticism on features you think could be better or need to be removed to MAKE it the perfect game for you. The Devs wont change it if they don't know.

If you like the feature as it is, just say so. There is no need to bash constructive criticism. Just say you don't agree and explain why.

I have a different problem: people seem to think that any critique of any criticism is out of bounds. For example, I think that the game would be far too simple if you could single-pull all opponents in instanced dungeons; and I like the idea that some things are more challenging than others. I therefore hope that the game doesn't go in the direction that the OP is advocating.

So, yes, they have a perfect right to say something - and I have a perfect right to disagree.

Lasticus · April 2014

krapmyself wrote: »

In this regard, you seem to be coming into the game with the mindset of a MMO player who has spent too many years playing tab target whack-a-mole games, where you click a target, press several buttons, and move to the next target. Like World of Warcraft, Rift, and Everquest.

This is not one of those games.

You can try Wildstar when it comes out, it has some similarities to those kind of games, but you will find it too has a very limited action bar (8 abilities), no auto attack to speak of, significant resource management during fights, and requires you to manually aim ALL of your attacks. (just like this game).

This is the new age of MMOs. The latency technology is starting to catch up with action oriented games, and this is the direction MMOs are going.

I agree totally with you. I started playing ESO because I am tired of the mechanics of games like WoW. Rift, Lotro, EQ and even GWII I have been a MMORP Gamer for over 16 years and I will admit this game is refreshing I think it will separate the Men from the boys when it comes to MMORP gaming!

Ragnar_Lodbrok · April 2014

I stopped taking OP seriously at "you need add-ons to play"

hurstrkb14a_ESO · April 2014

Sounds a bit whiny. Some is slightly valid though.

1) Yeah, I suppose in a group dungeon it should be shared. Outside in the open world, it should absolutely be one use... what do you want? An infinite iron node? That seems silly.

2) Uh I think the group UI takes getting used to I suppose, it's minimal, but I like it. It requires more concentration(skill) for healers I think. The grouping stuff, it sounds like you want the DDO group finding system, which was nice, but not sure how that would work with so many people on one server, could be a technical issue to implement that. I don't find that to be a real deal breaker of any kind though.

3) Haven't dealt with it, but sure sounds like a pain.

4) Disagree 100%. Level 12 Bosses > level 15 chumps. Common sense. If a level 16 though can't beat a level 12 named, then I think it's the player, not the quest. The one time I ran into a problem that I couldn't solo it was an equal level named boss, came back 2 levels later and smashed him.

5) Disagree again. Those are by design, and are meant to be difficult. So... looks like they did their job correctly. I had 1 public dungeon encounter with 2 pulls of 3 and 2 that I accidentally engaged and I lived with literally 20 hp, I felt like a boss.

6) Definitely not add-on required. It's pretty obvious what you kill and what kills you and when you make a mistake. If you need an add-on to feed you that info, you have been casual spoon fed for too long.

7) Combat tactics. I played DDO a lot too, and I always miss having endless tactics at my disposal. But I don't think ESO needs tactical cover or anything like that, it's not an FPS. It's meant to make you choose your arsenal of abilities carefully.

Orcula · April 2014

At this point all I can say is that ESO is lucky she is physically attractive and has an interesting story to tell, because OP is dead on, and he/she didn't even list all of the un-fun aspects of the game....I'm gonna stick around for a bit, but physical beauty and good story telling wont hold my attention forever. SWTOR player housing with legacy banks is just around the corner....cant believe I have to resort to defending SWTOR to motivate ESO dev...

Krynethos · April 2014

Ohioastro wrote: »

I have a different problem: people seem to think that any critique of any criticism is out of bounds. For example, I think that the game would be far too simple if you could single-pull all opponents in instanced dungeons; and I like the idea that some things are more challenging than others. I therefore hope that the game doesn't go in the direction that the OP is advocating.

So, yes, they have a perfect right to say something - and I have a perfect right to disagree.

I agree. That's why I said say why you disagree and explain your reasoning. I am talking more about the people saying the typical "learn to play wow fanboy noob" nonsense.

Singular · April 2014

I totally agree with you on the combat and grouping features. The grouping ui is simply non-existant - unless I'm missing something, it's all done through chat channels, which is very annoying. Yes, I'm a (possibly former) DDO player, so I am used to a fantastic lfm/lfg UI - clearly, they could do it here, too. They would simply have to auto-level restrict it so you weren't looking at 500 000 requests.

The combat is better than it was in beta. It's more responsive, so that's great.

I kind of like that we can't just pull one monster out of a group. I mean, if its getting hit by arrows, its friends are going to see that. Only in horror movies will one person say "hey, I'm going to go check out that scary place all by myself." I like how the mobs work together - calling out instructions 'flank him!' or burning oil, etc.

At first I was missing the utter power of my DDO character, where I can just clear rooms of mobs in one go (yes, EE). Then I started to realize this game, while heroic, is a grittier, more realistic combat system. You just can't take on 5 mobs of equal level - they'll overwhelm you. That's quite a lot more interesting as encounters take a bit of planning and thought if they're level appropriate.

poochie · April 2014

If I'm outleveled for a private dungeon and ALL mobs, that includes bosses don't give me drops then all I have are the locked chests ;/ I do the private dungeons at the end of a zone when all others quests are done or bugged such as Greenshade. I refuse to move to another zone until the quests are fixed.

Felarrond · April 2014

Completely agree with OP. Grouping mechanics in this game need a major overhaul, with additional instancing. Crafting and Lootables should be character-instanced or everyone-available like GW2, otherwise the war for crafting mats and constant robbery will be occurring.

poodlemasterb16_ESO · April 2014

#5 I have played the beta and since early start. I have built 9 chars altogether and am running 6 now.

It varies with class but my level 10 Altmer witch can easily dispatch a level 15 Dremora in a few seconds. Two is a challenge and 3 will kill me unless I get away. The pet is key. It's your tank and the Clanfear is golden. You have to set the encounter up to your advantage but when my curse comes due stuff dies a lot.

She is special and developed just for power with everything into magic and regeneration of magic.

Your fighter guys, I have a few, need a more balanced approach as they have to survive contact. A well developed DK can toast a single 5 level higher guy, talking around level 10 here, pretty quick and if he can get that done fast, tanking the other is quite possible.

You have to fail a lot to get this game right, well at least I do, but when you do ... it's pretty fine. The more you sweat the details, crafting etc, the better it gets.

My Red Witch:
http://carnagepro.com/pics/lyrisnmeS.jpg

That's Imperial Heavy on her chest and the belt is heavy too, with the rest Light she made herself mostly. It's the best way to get good stuff.

The Imperial armor was made by my Imperial in the Daggerfall Covenant. He has DK stuff to do but the Red Witch kind of took over and now all my alts work for her. My first female ever.