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Proposed fixes to Templar to make it relevant.
frattastic
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Templar is potentially the least meta relevant class across PvP and PvE. While in PvE stamina templar pulls very high numbers, magicka templar sorely lags behind. In PvP, you may see one or two strong templars, but they are far from being the top of the game. Without access to stackable shields, mines, pets, projectile deflection, invisibility, rampant Crowd Control, a fire-and-forget execute and many other skills that other classes get, Templars are the least sought-after class. After rambling about this with guildmates, I've decided to post about it here to further the discussion. These are some proposed skill changes that I think would make templar more relevant. Note: Most of this is PvP related, as the standard way to make them PvE relevant is just "make it do more damage."
Toppling Charge & Binding Javelin: These should be combined into one skill, with one morph being the stamina version and one more being the magicka version. There is no reason to have two spear stun abilities; almost no one uses 3 of the 4 possible choices anyway. For example, stamina templar needs a gap closer, yet the only stamina spear ability actually pushes the target away. Combine these skills into one skill branch, leaving one brand-new spear ability open for...well, anything.
Solar Pison: Make this cast-on-self like Eye of the Storm is. This would make it actually useful in PvE and especially PvP.
Ritual of Rebirth: Make this ability a Heal Over Time, like a magicka version of Vigor. Compared with Breath of Life or Combat Prayer, this skill rarely gets used as is.
Sun Shield: Have one morph of this ability scale off of max magicka instead of max health. The two existing morphs are too similar to be very distinguishable. Making sun shield scale off of max magicka would make it comparable to a Sorcerer's Hardened Ward.
New skill spot: by combining Toppling Charge and Binding Javelin, this leaves an open Aedric Spear slot. A skill I find useful would be either a root, cripple, or stun ability for PvP, or a strong DoT ability for PvE. The sky is the limit here though.
Thanks for reading this far, I hope to get some feedback and hopefully, one day, Templar can run with the meta classes.
Toppling Charge & Binding Javelin: These should be combined into one skill, with one morph being the stamina version and one more being the magicka version. There is no reason to have two spear stun abilities; almost no one uses 3 of the 4 possible choices anyway. For example, stamina templar needs a gap closer, yet the only stamina spear ability actually pushes the target away. Combine these skills into one skill branch, leaving one brand-new spear ability open for...well, anything.
Solar Pison: Make this cast-on-self like Eye of the Storm is. This would make it actually useful in PvE and especially PvP.
Ritual of Rebirth: Make this ability a Heal Over Time, like a magicka version of Vigor. Compared with Breath of Life or Combat Prayer, this skill rarely gets used as is.
Sun Shield: Have one morph of this ability scale off of max magicka instead of max health. The two existing morphs are too similar to be very distinguishable. Making sun shield scale off of max magicka would make it comparable to a Sorcerer's Hardened Ward.
New skill spot: by combining Toppling Charge and Binding Javelin, this leaves an open Aedric Spear slot. A skill I find useful would be either a root, cripple, or stun ability for PvP, or a strong DoT ability for PvE. The sky is the limit here though.
Thanks for reading this far, I hope to get some feedback and hopefully, one day, Templar can run with the meta classes.
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del9✭✭✭✭I wouldn’t say templars are irrelevant in pve or pvp. As mag dps they don’t compete in end game, and stam dps are rarely used except that they can contribute minor fracture. The real problem there is that for pve dps, moclass/specs are irrelevant if you are going for a score.
For PVP, I think you need to understand the templar’s role better. They may be lower on the solo/1vx totem pole than other classes. But in group, and especially in the current meta, templars are a must have. Necessary if you want to play at a high level. The purify alone is invaluable to your group with all the sloads, defiles, and dots going around. Even if my group has a magden on primary healing duties, we will force someone to run stamplar for that purify.
POTL/ purifying light helps groups focus down targets. Nova on the ground is powerful for both damage mit and outgoing damage, and since the introduction of Harmony trait, some groups’ entire strategies revolve around that ult.
Sustain is kind of rough, especially for stamplar but that is just one part of their group-god identity. A strong mag HOT like you mentioned has also been lacking.
I get that magplar might not be a dps/1vx powerhouse but in the current state of ESO, templar is probably the most relevant class and a staple of group play. Hope that helps.
PCNA3 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I wouldn’t say templars are irrelevant in pve or pvp. As mag dps they don’t compete in end game, and stam dps are rarely used except that they can contribute minor fracture. The real problem there is that for pve dps, moclass/specs are irrelevant if you are going for a score.
For PVP, I think you need to understand the templar’s role better. They may be lower on the solo/1vx totem pole than other classes. But in group, and especially in the current meta, templars are a must have. Necessary if you want to play at a high level. The purify alone is invaluable to your group with all the sloads, defiles, and dots going around. Even if my group has a magden on primary healing duties, we will force someone to run stamplar for that purify.
POTL/ purifying light helps groups focus down targets. Nova on the ground is powerful for both damage mit and outgoing damage, and since the introduction of Harmony trait, some groups’ entire strategies revolve around that ult.
Sustain is kind of rough, especially for stamplar but that is just one part of their group-god identity. A strong mag HOT like you mentioned has also been lacking.
I get that magplar might not be a dps/1vx powerhouse but in the current state of ESO, templar is probably the most relevant class and a staple of group play. Hope that helps.
Though not everyone wants to play in a group setting. And in a game where all classes will now have tank/healer/DD applications, OP isn't wrong to request changes to make DD Templars more friendly.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual3 -
erlewine✭✭✭They are fairly popular in PvE. Obviously they are the meta healer, and Stamplar uniquely provides Minor Breach/Fracture, and it's not uncommon for Trial groups to have one Magplar w/ Kagrenacs as the designated rezzer in progression groups. They also give Minor Sorcery, so the healer Templar doesn't have to do it.
Someone already adequately commented on their role in PvP. They are in a pretty good place already, and being buffed next patch a tad. Changing Solar Prison would upset a lot of people, that Synergy is incredibly powerful.eisley the worst0 -
frattastic✭✭I'm grateful for all of the feedback, and I'd just like to point out that all of the things you guys listed only make Templar relevant as a support class. Like, almost every single thing mentioned is why templars are useful for other players, pretty much highlighting the fact that templars are not strong on their own. Being a designated rezzer/healer/purge-er/etc its exactly my point: these are all niche roles, not main roles.2
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Vajrak✭✭✭Learn to use the class skills; I gave suggestions for Javelin/Charge in the main thread.
You want something to consider for PvP? Javelin>Critical Rush>Brawler or Execute. That knockback into charge can be devastating when used properly.
Ritual of Rebirth/Hasty Ritual used to be able to put out 250k healing per second, 50-60 casts straight, before needing to chug a pot. The current iteration is rather worthless.
So....you started a new thread to basically offer ideas that are asked for in the main thread, to offer suggestions that have already been covered, had superior ideas offered, or have actual uses already.
Or are you against only doing 52-60% of group DPS while also contributing 50-60% of the group healing (something a magplar DPS can do rather easily)?
Every increase in damage comes at the cost of a decrease in versatility for Templar.0 -
President_PUG✭✭✭I'm kinda laughing at this because of The Last PvP Event a Solo Templar Owned like 12 man Teams. I am not a PvP player so I didn't believe it either until He posted a Video, It might have been a 2 man team, I'll watch again..but He wiped everyone He came up against. The Templar I saw had everyone crying FIX IT! It's not Fair! That day I found The perfect "SIGNATURE" for My Post...You'll see it at The Bottom down there...in The mean time go get some schooling by this video..funnist stuff I ever saw!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=190&v=2dtBG0vOwxA
Don't Wish it was Easier, Wish You were BETTER!“Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better.”0 -
Checkmath✭✭✭✭✭
✭President_PUG wrote: »I'm kinda laughing at this because of The Last PvP Event a Solo Templar Owned like 12 man Teams. I am not a PvP player so I didn't believe it either until He posted a Video, It might have been a 2 man team, I'll watch again..but He wiped everyone He came up against. The Templar I saw had everyone crying FIX IT! It's not Fair! That day I found The perfect "SIGNATURE" for My Post...You'll see it at The Bottom down there...in The mean time go get some schooling by this video..funnist stuff I ever saw!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=190&v=2dtBG0vOwxA
Don't Wish it was Easier, Wish You were BETTER!
@President_PUG
yep its clear, that you arent a pvp-er. battletoadz was able to do that, because of some simple reasons:
1. his enemies were pretty much all pve-ers, so probably in pve gear and not ready for fighting other players. they were surely after the event achievement about the district bosses.
2. all those players didnt really give a *** about his presence, they rather wanted to kill the district boss and whenever battletoadz showed up, they were still targeting the boss. so battletoadz didnt have to do much other than focussing one enemy down and then shortly disengage, since the yellows didnt react fast, battled the boss and didnt follow him at all.
3. the enemy horde only acted like some normal zerg in the end of the video, meaning they are comparable to a zerg in the end, where several players actually followed battletoadz and somehow focussed him. thats where he died and that would the same in a normal pvp situation.
so in conclusion, the scene you showed here is no pvp situation at all, rather farming pve-ers, when they are more busy with a boss.
btw: every decent stam or magicka nightblade could have done the same, only better and easier than a templar.Edited by Checkmath on 9 August 2018 08:506 -
SilverWF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Puncture Sweeps hitting for 2k each in PVP?
More than relevant.
L2P- PC EU. Ebonheart Pact. CP 1k+
- YouTube: All ESO disguises (2014)
- EU players are humans too! We want our maintenances in the least pop time (at deep night) and not lasted for several hours!
- Animation canceR - is true PvP cancer! When you can't see which actions your opponent do - you can't react properly on them!
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BNOC✭✭✭✭✭President_PUG wrote: »I'm kinda laughing at this because of The Last PvP Event a Solo Templar Owned like 12 man Teams. I am not a PvP player so I didn't believe it either until He posted a Video, It might have been a 2 man team, I'll watch again..but He wiped everyone He came up against. The Templar I saw had everyone crying FIX IT! It's not Fair! That day I found The perfect "SIGNATURE" for My Post...You'll see it at The Bottom down there...in The mean time go get some schooling by this video..funnist stuff I ever saw!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=190&v=2dtBG0vOwxA
Don't Wish it was Easier, Wish You were BETTER!
I watched 3 minutes of that video and the guy is with 2+ 1000CP players fighting an equal amount of sub 600CP's / players that are still fighting adds etc; and in the clips they're outnumbered they're fighting players that don't even understand what Total Dark is for the most part.
He's running a single target execute in group play and his own group is so uncoordinated. There's nothing impressive about that I'm afraid, that's common place for a semi-decent player to perform like that - that doesn't indicate they are strong, just that other people are really bad.
No offence to that guy as he does look decent, but he doesn't seem like he'd even win a 1v1 against a top tier player on console - Especially not against a top tier player on a class like sorc or mnb that is so far ahead.
Bad example - Or actually, a good example for the changes suggested - This would have been 10* easier on a sorc or magblade.
On Topic:
I like the change to Prison, I think that's a good idea.
I don't like the idea of changing toppling charge as I don't only use it for a stun, it's quite useful as it is to me.
I don't like the idea of Sun Shield scaling with magicka - Templars would basically use it if it was comparable to Conjured ward - With burst heals that sorcs etc dont have access to, this would be too strong (If it was like for like)Edited by BNOC on 9 August 2018 13:04vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)
vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)1 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭President_PUG wrote: »I'm kinda laughing at this because of The Last PvP Event a Solo Templar Owned like 12 man Teams. I am not a PvP player so I didn't believe it either until He posted a Video, It might have been a 2 man team, I'll watch again..but He wiped everyone He came up against. The Templar I saw had everyone crying FIX IT! It's not Fair! That day I found The perfect "SIGNATURE" for My Post...You'll see it at The Bottom down there...in The mean time go get some schooling by this video..funnist stuff I ever saw!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=190&v=2dtBG0vOwxA
Don't Wish it was Easier, Wish You were BETTER!
Ummm...I'm a PvP Healplar sitting on 2100 Spell DMG, built for little more than group utility. I was able to cut through these PvE groups like a hot knife through butter because they're in light and medium armor with no impen or serious dmg mitigation. They're all dmg and mag/stam sustain, as any good PvEer should be. It sounds like the PvEers need to L2P in PvP land. Mr Toadz is good, but this is a terrible example of "why Templars don't need work".
If you're not invested in the team seeking the solution, why bother giving negative input that helps no one?Edited by p00tx on 9 August 2018 17:48PC/Xbox NA
Unchained | Unstoppable | Mindmender | Swashbuckler Supreme | Planes Breaker | Dawnbringer | Godslayer | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Tick-tock Tormentor | Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Stormproof | Grand Overlord | Grand Mastercrafter | Master Grappler | Tamriel Hero3 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭There was a time when magplar was an excellent solo class and very fun to play. But over the years ZOS has slowly neutered it, gutting things like the Blazing Spear stun, block mechanics, healing output, skill costs, Blinding Flashes removal, etc etc. They tossed this class into the garbage can basically.
Now it's a husk of its former self, very good support in organized groups and XvX play like @del9 said, but absolute trash for playing solo and bottom tier in BG's. It can't hang in this meta where you have to be both very fast and very bursty. It also has bad proactive defenses, meaning you struggle to recover when hit and struggle even more to create an opening to turn the tables.
Edited by Solariken on 9 August 2018 18:413 -
President_PUG✭✭✭Ty all! I myself learned something from this post...Not to go near any you guys/gals in PvP.“Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better.”1
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p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭President_PUG wrote: »Ty all! I myself learned something from this post...Not to go near any you guys/gals in PvP.
LOL! You'll be fine. Just switch some CP to crit resistence and spec out with impen when you come in. Either that or throw some swift jewelry traits on so you can run faster than us. In fact, a lot of PvPers have a "dungeon runner" toon, specced out to be able to run through PvE content, since our super balanced heavily armored PvP toons would be generally pretty terrible in there. Maybe create a speedy little PvP toon with high crit resist to use just for farming in IC.
Edited by p00tx on 10 August 2018 19:02PC/Xbox NA
Unchained | Unstoppable | Mindmender | Swashbuckler Supreme | Planes Breaker | Dawnbringer | Godslayer | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Tick-tock Tormentor | Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Stormproof | Grand Overlord | Grand Mastercrafter | Master Grappler | Tamriel Hero0 -
Drdeath20✭✭✭✭✭
✭People pick the dead campaigns to do pve stuff (and no pressure zerging of a dead campaign) and this guy goes in there with his group to farm them. Good groups stomped his group from BGs.0 -
ganj1234✭✭✭one sunshield morph should scale with spell damage OR maybe mag recovery. Would be quite interesting.President_PUG wrote: »I'm kinda laughing at this because of The Last PvP Event a Solo Templar Owned like 12 man Teams. I am not a PvP player so I didn't believe it either until He posted a Video, It might have been a 2 man team, I'll watch again..but He wiped everyone He came up against. The Templar I saw had everyone crying FIX IT! It's not Fair! That day I found The perfect "SIGNATURE" for My Post...You'll see it at The Bottom down there...in The mean time go get some schooling by this video..funnist stuff I ever saw!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=190&v=2dtBG0vOwxA
Don't Wish it was Easier, Wish You were BETTER!
I watched 3 minutes of that video and the guy is with 2+ 1000CP players fighting an equal amount of sub 600CP's / players that are still fighting adds etc; and in the clips they're outnumbered they're fighting players that don't even understand what Total Dark is for the most part.
He's running a single target execute in group play and his own group is so uncoordinated. There's nothing impressive about that I'm afraid, that's common place for a semi-decent player to perform like that - that doesn't indicate they are strong, just that other people are really bad.
No offence to that guy as he does look decent, but he doesn't seem like he'd even win a 1v1 against a top tier player on console - Especially not against a top tier player on a class like sorc or mnb that is so far ahead.
Bad example - Or actually, a good example for the changes suggested - This would have been 10* easier on a sorc or magblade.
On Topic:
I like the change to Prison, I think that's a good idea.
I don't like the idea of changing toppling charge as I don't only use it for a stun, it's quite useful as it is to me.
I don't like the idea of Sun Shield scaling with magicka - Templars would basically use it if it was comparable to Conjured ward - With burst heals that sorcs etc dont have access to, this would be too strong (If it was like for like)
✿ @x.Elle_x - PC/NA DC magblade sweat and fashion extraordinaire✿ Guild: Black Fire0
