Dracane wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

I just wonder what the Class Reps say about that internally when they talk to the devs. It doesn’t seem that you are getting the „pain points“ through to them. Not your fault though, I know you tried.

We spent a lot of time debating Rune Cage and did not come to a consensus. I would say most of reps said the "dodgeable fix" would really only benefit stamblades. Two of reps said that even for magicka characters, dodge roll was legitimate counterplay. All of us felt what's on LivE currently was something that needed to be changed, but disagreed what to do (though none of us suggested to remove the damage and make it dodgeable). All of us felt the CC break on the skill was in a bad way. None of us felt the Defensive morph needed any adjustment whatsoever.

What we spent a lot of time on was that sorcerers wanted so legit options available to them for CC/offense that wasn't a broken (or overnerfed) Rune Prison. The one thing we did agree on was the change to Crystal Shard was something that satisfied nobody: the Blast morph still isn't competitive and the Frag nerfs have robbed the skill of its appeal in PvE and PvP.

I'm known as a templar, but sorcerer is the by far my second most played class, and I felt the things that annoyed me about the class were communicated to ZoS (PVE sustain is terrible, Crystal Fragment over-nerfed, can't streak over uneven terrain because of the loss of momentum, pigeonholed into a cookie-cutter build for both PvE and PvP morphs, lackluster Charged Atronach morph, Heavy Overload morph is spectacularly bad, stamina sorcs basically only derive Hurricane as an active skill, etc., there are others that I'm not thinking of atm).

I think the issue comes down to resources in that ZOS does not have enough of them to do more than a couple of class related changes per testing cycle. So Rune Prison is getting nerfed but Crystal Shard and those are things ares still on the backburner.

I have always felt and tried to communicate in our meetings is that every player on whatever class should legit have something to look forward to in the next update. It concerns me that this is not the case for Wardens (nothing done) and Sorcerer players (just getting hit with nerfs - call the dodgeable fury a "bug-fix" belies the reality that such a "bug-fix" is still weakening the class with respect to the other 4).

All I know is at least one Rep doesn't PvE and thinks there is no "BiS" in PvP.

My faith in class representatives obviously took a nose dive hearing that

What does that have to do with what I posted?

Your class representative discussion has players that don't know Jack giving opinions as if they are on par with others'.

Aka, if you have a bad player saying (example) frags needs to be nerfed, and a good one saying it doesn't, according to what you said in your post, there would be no conclusion with 1 support and 1 against. - While in reality, the representative that wants the Nerf is a freaking moron.

It means, I know for a fact, subpar players have ZoS ear, I know for a fact player's with less skill are being listened to over more skilled and knowledgeable players

It has to do with what you said in as much we have incompetent people supposedly representing me.

Wtf did the warden rep say to ZoS? Wtf didn't they get anything?

Can you quote me where I wrote in my post that one rep said frags needed to be nerfed?

We spent at least 15 minutes in the meeting talking about Wardens. We all said they aren't getting anything this patch. One rep specifically listed 6 or 7 skills that could use quality of life/efficient buffs that would make the class much more fluid to play.

I don't think ZOS has the resources to make all the changes that players - and they - want.

I even said in that, that it was an example. I am speaking about the other things those individuals whom were apart of your discussion have said. The things they have said make me doubt they could have an informed opinion about many aspects of this game. The idea that an individual that is lacking in experience/knowledge is supposed to represent and offer concise and informed opinions to the company is very worrying.

The idea that such an individual's opinion is taken as seriously and equally to say someone such as yourself is also quite worrying.

If one of these people has or had disagreed with certain key components of the game and that's why we don't see such changes, well then that's just horrendous.

But I have no idea exactly what was said during your conversation, all I know is what I've read said publicly on the forums, and that information, combined with yours, is very disheartening

I think you are overestimating the amount of influence this particular person(s) has. People have been overestimating the amount of pull and say the Rep program has had from the start. We have been told time and time again not to offer solutions because we aren't ZOS employees, we aren't paid, it's not "our" game, etc.

We are going to disagree. And it's good that we do because as simple and obvious that so many players are making the issues and problems out there, the reality of the situation is that things are complex and smart people who are independent thinkers are going to come to different conclusions and they ought to be considered even if not adopted.

I totally understand that some people are going to feel like they are left out of this patch. It is not because one or two people have disproportionate amount of influence and are leading ZOS astray. ZOS came to us with most of update 19 already done (the werewolf theme) and devoted the small amount of time and resources they had to trying to alleviate big picture issues that many people agreed needed adjustment (for example defile, snares) and some obvious minor changes they could quickly address (templar Rune Focus, DK wings, for instance). There are people left out, but there are also some good changes in those notes, even if I don't agree with all of them. The reps and the devs are just beginning to have a feel for each other and how to make the process better and more efficient. For the next update, we are going to meet with the Devs way before they put it on PTS and they are already asking for specific class issues.

You are always talking about, how little ressources ZoS has. This means they only have a very few people working on the game and don't make enough money with it anymore in order to sustain the game for much longer ?

Anethum wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

Ok for rune cage and others

BUT,

For Wizards Riposte...Again i take off long time....Enough of those nerfs....i cant cry to nerf to others like OTHERS....
Spend hundred thosands of GOLDs and MATs for my 4 characters to Wizard Riposte.


U took;

Shields
cyrstal fragments
streak
Rune Cage

not enough nerfs on SORC now what its gears u start to nerf...
i take off for another 6 months and cancel my sub till u fix these ...

Srry mate, but anyone will miss u in such case.
We tired of "masters of one class", who defend only their "sorc/blade/tank/sload-playstyle".
The irony is, it's in 70% of cases are magesorcerers with a very obvious reason - this class is overpowered and easy to play during a very long period with a very strong and narrow-minded lobby.
Most sorc-funs can't play other classes because feel it's too complicated and hard for themselves.
Maelstrom arena reveals this in it's full beauty.

No one cares if u like the change, because it improve gameplay in general.
Classes balance is the key.
Try another classes, learn the game to understand why these changes done and stop cry without reasons.
Sorc is and will be very strong option if u skilled.

Koensol wrote: »

I am dissappointed not to see a Zaan nerf. Even though it can becountered, it is nearly impossible to do so sometimes on certain builds. When paired with cc and gapclose and snare spam it can be almost impossible to evade at times. And aside from that, the damage is does is way over the top for a 2 piece set. It is just plain broken.

Zaan: Decreased the range required to break the fiery tether to 8 meters from 10 meters.

Feanor wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

I am dissappointed not to see a Zaan nerf. Even though it can becountered, it is nearly impossible to do so sometimes on certain builds. When paired with cc and gapclose and snare spam it can be almost impossible to evade at times. And aside from that, the damage is does is way over the top for a 2 piece set. It is just plain broken.

A nerf was in 4.1.0:

Zaan: Decreased the range required to break the fiery tether to 8 meters from 10 meters.

Mureel wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

I just wonder what the Class Reps say about that internally when they talk to the devs. It doesn’t seem that you are getting the „pain points“ through to them. Not your fault though, I know you tried.

We spent a lot of time debating Rune Cage and did not come to a consensus. I would say most of reps said the "dodgeable fix" would really only benefit stamblades. Two of reps said that even for magicka characters, dodge roll was legitimate counterplay. All of us felt what's on LivE currently was something that needed to be changed, but disagreed what to do (though none of us suggested to remove the damage and make it dodgeable). All of us felt the CC break on the skill was in a bad way. None of us felt the Defensive morph needed any adjustment whatsoever.

What we spent a lot of time on was that sorcerers wanted so legit options available to them for CC/offense that wasn't a broken (or overnerfed) Rune Prison. The one thing we did agree on was the change to Crystal Shard was something that satisfied nobody: the Blast morph still isn't competitive and the Frag nerfs have robbed the skill of its appeal in PvE and PvP.

I'm known as a templar, but sorcerer is the by far my second most played class, and I felt the things that annoyed me about the class were communicated to ZoS (PVE sustain is terrible, Crystal Fragment over-nerfed, can't streak over uneven terrain because of the loss of momentum, pigeonholed into a cookie-cutter build for both PvE and PvP morphs, lackluster Charged Atronach morph, Heavy Overload morph is spectacularly bad, stamina sorcs basically only derive Hurricane as an active skill, etc., there are others that I'm not thinking of atm).

I think the issue comes down to resources in that ZOS does not have enough of them to do more than a couple of class related changes per testing cycle. So Rune Prison is getting nerfed but Crystal Shard and those are things ares still on the backburner.

I have always felt and tried to communicate in our meetings is that every player on whatever class should legit have something to look forward to in the next update. It concerns me that this is not the case for Wardens (nothing done) and Sorcerer players (just getting hit with nerfs - call the dodgeable fury a "bug-fix" belies the reality that such a "bug-fix" is still weakening the class with respect to the other 4).

All I know is at least one Rep doesn't PvE and thinks there is no "BiS" in PvP.

My faith in class representatives obviously took a nose dive hearing that

What does that have to do with what I posted?

Your class representative discussion has players that don't know Jack giving opinions as if they are on par with others'.

Aka, if you have a bad player saying (example) frags needs to be nerfed, and a good one saying it doesn't, according to what you said in your post, there would be no conclusion with 1 support and 1 against. - While in reality, the representative that wants the Nerf is a freaking moron.

It means, I know for a fact, subpar players have ZoS ear, I know for a fact player's with less skill are being listened to over more skilled and knowledgeable players

It has to do with what you said in as much we have incompetent people supposedly representing me.

Wtf did the warden rep say to ZoS? Wtf didn't they get anything?

Can you quote me where I wrote in my post that one rep said frags needed to be nerfed?

We spent at least 15 minutes in the meeting talking about Wardens. We all said they aren't getting anything this patch. One rep specifically listed 6 or 7 skills that could use quality of life/efficient buffs that would make the class much more fluid to play.

I don't think ZOS has the resources to make all the changes that players - and they - want.

I even said in that, that it was an example. I am speaking about the other things those individuals whom were apart of your discussion have said. The things they have said make me doubt they could have an informed opinion about many aspects of this game. The idea that an individual that is lacking in experience/knowledge is supposed to represent and offer concise and informed opinions to the company is very worrying.

The idea that such an individual's opinion is taken as seriously and equally to say someone such as yourself is also quite worrying.

If one of these people has or had disagreed with certain key components of the game and that's why we don't see such changes, well then that's just horrendous.

But I have no idea exactly what was said during your conversation, all I know is what I've read said publicly on the forums, and that information, combined with yours, is very disheartening

I think you are overestimating the amount of influence this particular person(s) has. People have been overestimating the amount of pull and say the Rep program has had from the start. We have been told time and time again not to offer solutions because we aren't ZOS employees, we aren't paid, it's not "our" game, etc.

We are going to disagree. And it's good that we do because as simple and obvious that so many players are making the issues and problems out there, the reality of the situation is that things are complex and smart people who are independent thinkers are going to come to different conclusions and they ought to be considered even if not adopted.

I totally understand that some people are going to feel like they are left out of this patch. It is not because one or two people have disproportionate amount of influence and are leading ZOS astray. ZOS came to us with most of update 19 already done (the werewolf theme) and devoted the small amount of time and resources they had to trying to alleviate big picture issues that many people agreed needed adjustment (for example defile, snares) and some obvious minor changes they could quickly address (templar Rune Focus, DK wings, for instance). There are people left out, but there are also some good changes in those notes, even if I don't agree with all of them. The reps and the devs are just beginning to have a feel for each other and how to make the process better and more efficient. For the next update, we are going to meet with the Devs way before they put it on PTS and they are already asking for specific class issues.

You are always talking about, how little ressources ZoS has. This means they only have a very few people working on the game and don't make enough money with it anymore in order to sustain the game for much longer ?

Did not mean to give that impression. We know they hired Gilliam. They hired other folks. ZOS has people that are working hard. It's just they reality that only so much can be done in 3 months

@Joy_Division
ALL I would like to see is the Defensive Rune change reverted, Riposte not made totally into trash, and give an armour set the horse/mounted speed back (it was a pointless nerf that just wasted peoples' gold!).

Things like that are what make people go 'Fine. Sloads it is.'

• Frag damage nerf was followed by the CC removal but the damage remained nerfed from previous patch
• Magden CC removal due to "overloaded" skill philosophies but the power was not distributed else where, on a class that was already underperforming
• Rune Cage was identified as overperforming by most sorc mains in the first notes of last patch and nothing was done until now, and on that topic, the current changes turn the skill from overpowered to [relatively] useless

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Sorcerer

• Dark Magic
  • Rune Cage: This ability and its morphs can now be dodged.

Joy_Division wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

@Joy_Division Is the tendency to instantly or incrementally over nerf/buff on the dev radar as well? I find this tends to be the biggest problem regarding balance changes. I understand resources (time/manpower etc) are limited, but it seems that extreme changes are implemented, tested but then left or nerfs are not adequately compensated for. I assume the intention is to test both extremes and find a middle ground but changes are usually left at these extremes.

Ex.

• Frag damage nerf was followed by the CC removal but the damage remained nerfed from previous patch
• Magden CC removal due to "overloaded" skill philosophies but the power was not distributed else where, on a class that was already underperforming
• Rune Cage was identified as overperforming by most sorc mains in the first notes of last patch and nothing was done until now, and on that topic, the current changes turn the skill from overpowered to [relatively] useless

It seems like dev mentality is focused on "nerf" and not "balance", which is what I believe is causing the cyclical nature of overall game balance. This last PTS suggests that the devs are acknowledging this fact, although I assume this has more to do with the feedback from class reps. Dev insight seems to be very shallow--they are able to identify that builds are overperforming but they tend to address the wrong mechanics--case and point being original changes to Durok doing nothing about uptime.

Also, changes tend to punish undesirable game play as opposed to rewarding smart/healthy play. IMO, adopting the former mentality would result in less backlash on the forums and garner more support for devs.

Lastly, I commend your bravery to post as you did in this thread. Insightful responses are often desired but also the most prone to ridicule. So far the rep program seems to have had a positive effect.Latest Durok changes are a testament to that.

I don't expect people to know my posting history, but I can say without exaggeration that I have for years been a consistent critic of the overly reliance on nerfs and agree with the essence of what you are saying here.

This, however, I think is more complicated that just the devs. There is without question an accepted culture in the ESO community that nerfing things that are perceived to be too powerful in fine and, worse, constantly asked for. Every time someone thinks they are so darn clever and posts a death recap with zero context thinking the solution is self-evident, they are only communicating to ZOS that a specific ability is so powerful that it does not require an explanation why it needs to be nerfed. The echo-chamber effect is real.

I feel in the last meeting the reps communicated much of what you have written here. We communicated it and I think we do see some changes that reflect that, the adjustment to Templar Rune and as you point out, Durok's. But I agree we need more and ZOS needs to do a better job of providing some positive changes for everyone, especially when something they rely on is getting nerfed.

So I can 1000% assure you that I am not merely going to communicate this concern, I am going to scream it loud and clear that everybody, not just templars and people sick of perma defiles, and getting hit Rune Cage has something to genuinely look forward to for update 20. I know people are getting tired of hearing about next update. Heck, I stop looking forward to the "next update" a long time ago. But I'm going to give the "next update" thing one more shot because ZOS seems interested in doing things different. OK, let's see and do our best to make it happen. But one more shot. Want to see real meaningful changes for update 20. Don't tell me 21. I get it. I feel the same way.

GlorphNoldorin wrote: »

When there was such a back lash to the viper/velidreth/tremorscale days, where the player base made it's thoughts explicitly known.....why is it that over so many subsequent patches, that proc sets keep appearing? Caluurons, Zaans, Earthgore, Sloads etc.....the Dev's dont have any idea...and do not play the game.

Jaywics wrote: »

Runescape is looking pretty nice right about now tbh.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't expect people to know my posting history, but I can say without exaggeration that I have for years been a consistent critic of the overly reliance on nerfs and agree with the essence of what you are saying here.

This, however, I think is more complicated that just the devs. There is without question an accepted culture in the ESO community that nerfing things that are perceived to be too powerful in fine and, worse, constantly asked for. Every time someone thinks they are so darn clever and posts a death recap with zero context thinking the solution is self-evident, they are only communicating to ZOS that a specific ability is so powerful that it does not require an explanation why it needs to be nerfed. The echo-chamber effect is real.

I feel in the last meeting the reps communicated much of what you have written here. We communicated it and I think we do see some changes that reflect that, the adjustment to Templar Rune and as you point out, Durok's. But I agree we need more and ZOS needs to do a better job of providing some positive changes for everyone, especially when something they rely on is getting nerfed.

So I can 1000% assure you that I am not merely going to communicate this concern, I am going to scream it loud and clear that everybody, not just templars and people sick of perma defiles, and getting hit Rune Cage has something to genuinely look forward to for update 20. I know people are getting tired of hearing about next update. Heck, I stop looking forward to the "next update" a long time ago. But I'm going to give the "next update" thing one more shot because ZOS seems interested in doing things different. OK, let's see and do our best to make it happen. But one more shot. Want to see real meaningful changes for update 20. Don't tell me 21. I get it. I feel the same way.