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Am I a bad Tank for needing a Healer?

ArchMikem
ArchMikem
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To establish, I've been a player for three years now but never played as a Tank, only DPS and Heals. But because of the Event Vendor selling Ebon jewelry I decided to finally build one out of my StamDK so I could have all three roles and experience/learn Tanking.

So far I've taken her through several Normals and a couple Vets like Spindleclutch, Volenfell, and Crypt of Hearts 1 and 2. I think I'm getting a hold on the majority of what to do, not to mention I've paid attention to the Tank plenty of times when I was the Healer, since it's the Healer's job to provide heals and shards. But that's the thing though, in my mind, the Tank needs support from the Healer in order to perform at their best. But as a Tank I'm on the other side now and I'm wondering, does the playerbase consider you a bad Tank if you rely on a Healer? Are you expected to be a fully self sufficient Tank no matter what group you have?
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  • Hotdog_23
    Hotdog_23
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    No as a new tank and on vet dungeons or even normal DLC ones you need a healer if you are soaking up all the damage. Once a tank learns the mechanics and his build a more advanced tank can do most dungeons without much healer support.

    But hey that's a healer job to support and heal. I know when I play on my healer I don't mind healing the tank at all. Now a stupid dps trying to die, yes but never the tank.
    Edited by Hotdog_23 on 6 August 2018 05:30
  • Tasear
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    I think healer's these days appericate you actually needing them, though be able take a few hits before healer comes to you!
  • RedRook
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    No.

    Some tanks seem to build for maximum self-sufficiency, which is easier on some classes than others. I don't think any less of the ones who don't. Did you, when you were healing?
  • DoobZ69
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    If you're a DK and you need a healer then yes, you are a bad tank.
  • Narvuntien
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    A lot of the meta set up are about getting really close to the line of survivability to maximise the group utility/group damage, which assumes having a good healer.
  • WuffyCerulei
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    Nah, especially if you're new to tanking. That is the healer's job to keep you up anyways.
    Sorcerer's pretty much been the same for years. Nerf Rush of Agony and Saints&Seducer's
  • Liofa
    Liofa
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    No. I don't even slot a self heal except dragon blood. I use it to increase my healing taken, not for actual healing. A tanks job is to buff and debuff, not heal. There are only few fights where you need self healing and there is a really easy way to get a lot of self heals. What you need is Infused jewelry with Potion Cooldown Reduction enchants. Craft a lot of Lingering Health + Vitality potions. When you have 20% Healing Taken just for keeping Green Dragon Blood active (12% from Burning Heart + 8% from Minor Vitality), 70% uptime on Major Vitality from potions, 100 Blessed and 100% Uptime on Major Mending with Fragmented Shield gives you around 2-2.5k ticks from the Lingering Health potion. This is enough to outheal almost all constant attacks in normal and veteran dungeons. If you need more, just slap on Earthgore and you are good to go. If you need even more, you can always use Dragon Blood one more time for the heal.

    Even more so, if you have Magicka Nightblades in the group, they will be using Refreshing Path and maybe even Funnel Health.

    There is no need for more healing than this. Hope this helps.
  • ArchMikem
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    Liofa wrote: »
    No. I don't even slot a self heal except dragon blood. I use it to increase my healing taken, not for actual healing. A tanks job is to buff and debuff, not heal. There are only few fights where you need self healing and there is a really easy way to get a lot of self heals. What you need is Infused jewelry with Potion Cooldown Reduction enchants. Craft a lot of Lingering Health + Vitality potions. When you have 20% Healing Taken just for keeping Green Dragon Blood active (12% from Burning Heart + 8% from Minor Vitality), 70% uptime on Major Vitality from potions, 100 Blessed and 100% Uptime on Major Mending with Fragmented Shield gives you around 2-2.5k ticks from the Lingering Health potion. This is enough to outheal almost all constant attacks in normal and veteran dungeons. If you need more, just slap on Earthgore and you are good to go. If you need even more, you can always use Dragon Blood one more time for the heal.

    Even more so, if you have Magicka Nightblades in the group, they will be using Refreshing Path and maybe even Funnel Health.

    There is no need for more healing than this. Hope this helps.

    Health poisons was something i didnt think about before, thank you for the suggestion. Really when i say i need a Healer, all i need is a few healing springs every so often and shards to help me sustain. My 45k health and soft capped resistances handle the rest. It just seems like now that im experiencing pug pledges as a Tank instead of a Healer ive noticed not a lot of people queue as dedicated support Healers.
    CP2,100 Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
    Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!
  • Mureel
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    ArchMikem wrote: »
    To establish, I've been a player for three years now but never played as a Tank, only DPS and Heals. But because of the Event Vendor selling Ebon jewelry I decided to finally build one out of my StamDK so I could have all three roles and experience/learn Tanking.

    So far I've taken her through several Normals and a couple Vets like Spindleclutch, Volenfell, and Crypt of Hearts 1 and 2. I think I'm getting a hold on the majority of what to do, not to mention I've paid attention to the Tank plenty of times when I was the Healer, since it's the Healer's job to provide heals and shards. But that's the thing though, in my mind, the Tank needs support from the Healer in order to perform at their best. But as a Tank I'm on the other side now and I'm wondering, does the playerbase consider you a bad Tank if you rely on a Healer? Are you expected to be a fully self sufficient Tank no matter what group you have?

    As a player since beta, I started tanking a few mos ago and I did not need a healer for many reasons:
    1. I had good DPS who handled things before it was getting crazy.
    2. I played a healer forever and I know mechanics, and almost never got one shot.
    3. Gear. Wear leeching/plague dr and Chudan over the armour skill (I forget the name, the spiked one, that gives you resists- chudan will handle these, freeing up a slot for wings, shield charge, etc) you have to recast always and if in much danger, crutch on Earthgore.
    4. As a DK cast shield first for major mending and then vigor.
    5. Slot warhorn
    6. Attributes: spec with only slightly less magicka than Stam, so when you do have a healer or a DPS using shards, you get Stam back, but still have loads of magicka.

    Finally: if you have a team who knows the dungeon and mechanics you will be fine without a healer.
    If not, healers are the best!

    I'm glad to share my builds and stuff, and some tips if you need - but I've done every single dungeon HM except VSP - just because I always end up healing or dpsing- but also non hm vscp with no healer - had a wipe here or there, but generally find it ok!

    When you know what hits can be blocked vs roll dodged and get used to it and/or you have good DPS; then you can switch to more group helpful sets.

    What will not work anymore is holding block all the time because you will run out of Stam.

    Definitely be a stage 2 vampire. For the regen.

    I personally stay at stage 2.

    I am sure loads of people will have more to add!
    Edited by Mureel on 6 August 2018 10:33
  • Mureel
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    DoobZ69 wrote: »
    If you're a DK and you need a healer then yes, you are a bad tank.

    Give help and tips to help him! Don't just rock up in here and shoot him down. :-(
    Edited by Mureel on 6 August 2018 10:34
  • craftycarper73
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    this week ive just started tanking, i have an argonian dk tank, sets are 2 chudan, 5 plague doctor & 5 ebon, im just struggling which skills to use and on which bar.

    i have all the ones you would expect a tank to have but on which bar
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  • dodgehopper_ESO
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    You want to become as self sufficient as possible to relieve the pressure off of the Healer. That is my view anyway. The other big thing is chain pulls, talons, grouping mobs, facing bosses away from your chums. Keep your buddies safe (I purposefully drop my shields to save them at times, although this skill pretty much keeps you alive and feeds your stam too). While you do all that they also expect you to buff them with *** gear like Alkosh. I personally think the DD's should suck up and use this set, but hey that's what folks want.
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  • Mureel
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    this week ive just started tanking, i have an argonian dk tank, sets are 2 chudan, 5 plague doctor & 5 ebon, im just struggling which skills to use and on which bar.

    i have all the ones you would expect a tank to have but on which bar

    @craftycarper73
    One bar: chains, talons, GDB, shield and vigor
    2nd Bar: low slash, taunt, range taunt, magicka shield from S&B tree (sorry on my phone and I am terrible with names!) and utility slot for time stop, wings, shield charge, or whatever. The spiked armour for if you're running a different monster set, etc. Also: Ultis, warhorn and the ultimate armour thingy.

    For Cloudrest swap one of your taunts to the other bar, in case of overcharge debuff.

    I know the fact that I am bad with names is annoying and sorry!

    It's just a mental block I have - been healing since 2014 and still call the big aoe heal 'the huge circle heal thingy! The one that doesn't do damage but removes effects'
    Edited by Mureel on 6 August 2018 11:02
  • TheCyberDruid
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    Hmm, depends on how much you rely on the healer I'd say. The end boss of a dungeon is a good spot to be in need of a healer as a tank, but if you need a healer all the time to not die I think you should practice a bit more and/or change towards survivability.
  • jypcy
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    Nah, for the majority of content in this game you can have a healer with you, so it’s not wrong to make use of that. It’s just that your group can often be more efficient the less you need to rely on your healer. If you don’t need the healer as much, then the healer can focus more on buffing dps or even contributing to the damage himself. If you don’t need to rely on the healer really at all, then he can contribute as a full dps, and this should lead to you clearing content quicker. But I wouldn’t think the players in a group that uses a healer are bad because they’re using a healer.
  • GreenHere
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    I'm of the opinion that there are multiple ways to tank effectively. My favorite tank (when I'm a dps, anyway) is the type that boosts my damage, either by buffing me / debuffing enemies / collecting targets to nuke / etc.

    If you're doing that, you're not going to be as self-sustaining. And vice versa. Tanks that can survive any and everything without any help from anyone are neat to see on occasion, but more a novelty than anything else, imo. You can help the group in more ways than just being an unkillable juggernaut, and most groups would prefer it.

    As far as you being a bad tank? We've never played together, but I'm gonna go ahead and give you a solid "you're a good tank" based solely on the fact that you care enough to even ask about tanking. ;P

    Hell, if you show up with a shield, and taunt, and a willingness to try and keep a boss off your teammates, then I say you're in the better half of tanks nowadays anyway!
  • raj72616a
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    do you pug? do you play with random strangers?

    if you do, you'd better be self sufficient.
  • Krayl
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    1.) You're not a bad tank, you're just an inexperienced one. When you have done the dungeons 100 times each as a tank, know all mechanics from a tank pov, and have mastered playing one, no, you don't need a healer for most normals and the easier vets.

    2.) If you've played a healer then you know most of the time your heals are going to DPS who opt to not just avoid damaging mechanics.Nobody should be expecting you as a tank to also keep them up aside from doing what a tank does.

    3.) If someone is joining as a healer but is a dps it would be nice of them to slot some kind of heal. If I feel like cheesing the group finder and being a a dps that joins as a tank or healer, I'm gonna have a taunt or a heal available. If It's a random and I queue for those roles, and we draw a difficult dungeon that requires a real one I will offer to switch chars. It's not your fault if people don't give it this kind of consideration.

    So, no you're not a bad tank, but yes you can do things to become less reliant on a healer for some of the easier dungeons.

    I'm a traditionalist and always prefer to see 1 tank 1 healer 2 dps setups, but at the same time when you've been through these dungeons so many times it's not always totally necessary.



  • Drdeath20
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    The group should work as a team but its moderation. To be honest better damage dealers make the tanks job easier over a healer.

    When i tank if i only have to worry about following my simple tank protocols i have a much easier time. When i have to constantly reposition because the DDs either cant burn the adds fast enough or are standing in stupid i find that my tank is being pushed above its limit. Obviously the healer should leave me a few synergies to help me out but nothing out of the ordinary.

    When i tank i prefer 2 damage dealers and a healer who mainly deals damage.
  • erlewine
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    Depends on your own preconceptions of "bad."

    If I ask myself the question another way, "Do I expect a GOOD tank to be able to effectively tank all 4 man dungeons in the game without receiving any outside heals," I'd say yes, definitely. It really just requires experience of game and fight mechanics to be able to do so, and anyone I consider "good" would fit that criteria.

    There's even additional levels beyond that - tanks can also effectively heal the other 3 dps in the AND give them Spell Power Cure via Blood Altar and Earthgore. They can also further debuff the enemy and buff the group appropriately. (Alkosh, Crusher, Engulfing Flames, War Horn). They can also backbar a Destro staff and keep up Elemental Drain and Blockade, The reason for this is that the Blockade will proc the Minor Lifesteal from your Altar that you dropped, and the Minor Magickasteal from the EleDrain you cast, and it will also proc your mainhand glyph - Crusher. So the entire group, including you, is now getting a lot of resources for free. Backbar Destro has other nice abilities for some fights, like Fang Lair Hardmode. It's also a good way to balance your stats, since you can swap the resource block consumes.

    There isn't really just one way to do it, though. First of all, you should get 3x Infused jewelry. This will allow you to either use 1, 2, or 3 Potion speed Glyphs, or you can use Infused Block glyphs and then use the Psijic skill Meditate for resources. I'd highly suggest the 2-3x Infused Potion Speed method - it's very powerful. Especially if you're an Argonian.You can keep up Major Vitality, Major Expedition, Minor Vitality, and all the stuff listed above by earlier poster is just as important - you really want 100 blessed, high elfborn, Ritual Mundus, Minor/Major Vitality, Major Mending, etc. As those are some of the only ways in the entire game to increase the healing of the things we're discussing - Minor Lifesteal(and synergy) from Altar, the heal from Lingering Health (you can get around 2k/sec from lingering health which is up all the time, and another 1.5k/sec from MinorLifesteal. Those buffs/CP are also the only way to affect. As a final "lol," you can also spam Burning Embers on the same mob to heal yourself for 6-9k every cast, chain casting it. while you've got the potion buffs up.

    Tl;dr - Yes, but you can fix that with a little knowledge and practice. Tanking is more art than science.... um, well, actually it's kinda science now too. So it's like a social science. ... which means it's literally not a science at all, it's maybe even anti-science. Fug.
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  • DoobZ69
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    ArchMikem wrote: »
    To establish, I've been a player for three years now but never played as a Tank, only DPS and Heals. But because of the Event Vendor selling Ebon jewelry I decided to finally build one out of my StamDK so I could have all three roles and experience/learn Tanking.

    So far I've taken her through several Normals and a couple Vets like Spindleclutch, Volenfell, and Crypt of Hearts 1 and 2. I think I'm getting a hold on the majority of what to do, not to mention I've paid attention to the Tank plenty of times when I was the Healer, since it's the Healer's job to provide heals and shards. But that's the thing though, in my mind, the Tank needs support from the Healer in order to perform at their best. But as a Tank I'm on the other side now and I'm wondering, does the playerbase consider you a bad Tank if you rely on a Healer? Are you expected to be a fully self sufficient Tank no matter what group you have?
    Mureel wrote: »
    DoobZ69 wrote: »
    If you're a DK and you need a healer then yes, you are a bad tank.

    Give help and tips to help him! Don't just rock up in here and shoot him down. :-(

    No, I would be wasting time.
  • kringled_1
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    ArchMikem wrote: »

    Health poisons was something i didnt think about before, thank you for the suggestion. Really when i say i need a Healer, all i need is a few healing springs every so often and shards to help me sustain. My 45k health and soft capped resistances handle the rest. It just seems like now that im experiencing pug pledges as a Tank instead of a Healer ive noticed not a lot of people queue as dedicated support Healers.

    As others have said, if you're running pug pledges, you should plan on a significant amount of self-reliance. You probably can't heal through the hard heal checks, but a better ability to self-heal (or mitigate so you don't need heals) would be useful. Yes, people may not be on a full healing build; full healing means putting full faith in your pug dps. The healer may be spending their time/resources doing dps (because the dps isn't effective); they may be spending their resources trying to heal dps that is both squishy and all over the place; they may get targeted by disabling mechanics, etc. If you can't then it makes every time the healer goes down/is disabled a very high chance of a wipe.

    Sustain is probably more learning to tank (and it took me a while), both learning to manage your resources and knowing when you need to block and not overblocking. Also, make sure you have undaunted command if you can and grab every synergy possible.
  • BejaProphet
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    @ArchMikem Talking about whether you are bad or good isn't going to be helpful. Talking about what you are aiming to become is going to help you.

    IMO, a tank should aim to be capable of functioning without a healer. For example, if your healer drops is that game over? I think a tank ought to be able to shift to a more defensive mindset and hold his ground while the healer is resurrected.

    On the flip side, I think there is nothing wrong with being in a place where you want to have a healer because your tanking is easier, and the whole group is smoother.

    So on one hand if you are so self sufficient that you couldn't care less whether there is a healer, it probably means that your build isn't helping your group enough. But if you can't survive three minutes of your healer being dead, you probably aren't tanky enough.

    All this is about what you are becoming though, wherever you are on that journey is just where you are, respect it and clarify what you are aiming at.
  • Nestor
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    As much as some on the forums crow about how dungeons can or even should be run with 4 DPS or the Healer needs to DPS in lieu of Healing, dungeons go better when the 3 roles are involved.

    So, as a Tank, you should need some heals at some point during the fight. You should not be so totally reliant on heals such that the healer becomes your personal slave.

    Now, come Trials, yea, your going to need heals.
    Edited by Nestor on 7 August 2018 18:11
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  • ZOS_Ragnar
    ZOS_Ragnar
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    We removed some posts that were hostile and not adding to the discussion.
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  • ArchMikem
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    Nestor wrote: »
    As much as some on the forums crow about how dungeons can or even should be run with 4 DPS or the Healer needs to DPS in lieu of Healing, dungeons go better when the 3 roles are involved.

    So, as a Tank, you should need some heals at some point during the fight. You should not be so totally reliant on heals such that the healer becomes your personal slave.

    Now, come Trials, yea, your going to need heals.

    I'm not the BiS build by any means but after I've been practicing through Pledges I think I'm getting confident in my ability. Tanked vCOA2 and vBC2 last night for the first time and both fights went smoothly. (the DPS and Healers were on top of things though, they were great). Even did both HMs. Tanking the Daedroths in Cells was pretty easy save for the times I got pulled up into the air RIGHT when my taunts wore off and they went storming off after the group. Gets hectic.

    But really all I need from the Healer are a few Healing Springs now and then and Shards and I'm golden. Tanking used to be so daunting an idea for me cause Tanks always seem like the leaders of the group who are supposed to know what to do, how to lead, what to do when. Much more intensive than Healing which I love to do. But I think I'm getting a hang of it now. :)

    And now I'm just happy to have a character for each role, and that I can help increase the number of Dedicated Tanks in the group queues.

    But question. What skill do Tanks use that gives them an insane burst Heal? I've seen it done loads of times but whenever I use Dragon Blood it barely brings me back up to 50%. I've seen other players go from their last 10% back up to full instantly.
    Edited by ArchMikem on 10 August 2018 20:55
    CP2,100 Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
    Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!
  • HoustonHeart
    As a healer in the passed yo should realize there is a balance. Yes healers need to support the tank and others. I play my healer in a way to regen health ticks as primary healing means, dotting enemies so others self heal. Shielding weaker or tank in rotation. Otherwise my jobs boring.

    I’ve have seen good and bad tanks. Hp hogs that have no resistance and are nothing but a drain on mana and healing with glorious amnts of worthless hp.

    Then there are those with good defense,resistance and make it easy to keep a steady even tick on and that is needed. Don’t let cocky mouthed people judge because they are a drain. Usually the mouthiest are the worst players with poor balance. Work with guilds who help you learn. No the mouthy ones. I’ve seen tanks at low levels out tank high cp tanks.

    A healer is there for support. To help you maintain hp, remove stats, and dot mobs so your own hits heal you.
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