Nocturnal, did ZoS even read the Lore?

Maura_Neysa · June 2018

I am completely disappointed with ZoS depiction of Nocturnal. In the Lore established pre ESO Nocturnal doesn't care much for the world of men and mer at all. While she does actually have cultist much like any of the other Princes, she ignores them completely. Only using her Nightingales for what work she wishes to happen in the world of Nirn. Her Nightingales, of which she only chooses 3 are also given free will over their choice to become one. Including the foreknowledge that they are giving over there soul to her in the afterlife until what ever time she decides that she is done with them.
Morrowind spoilers

The involvement in Morrowind made some sense. The Skeleton key is missing. This is one of the only things to make her pay attention to the world. However this is the exact same issue occurring in Elder Scrolls V, Skyrim. Nocturnal doesn't send an army of Wraith Crows after the Key though. She recruits a new Nightingale and sends them along with the other two still loyal Nightingales after the key. Why was her response a thousand years later a thousand times less sever? Now I do see how both Morrowind and Summerset stories are linked. The fact remains that plot wise at least there was a reason for Nocturnal's involvement.

Summerset spoiler

Now though ZoS thinks to make Nocturnal not only just want destroy the world, but some how she is now also older than the Deadra? Again this doesn't line up at all. What influence that Nocturnal is said to have on the world is to give luck to thieves. Hardly on the same level as wiping out the world. The Court of Bedlam, again Nocturnal ignores her cultist. Why is she actively collecting any now? Even if she did decide to join up with other Princes for some goal, why is her Earl not one of the Nightingales?
Plus how would the other Deadric Princes not know that Nocturnal was older than them?

Not to mention the epic failure that is the actual depiction of Nocturnal. Mephala made a better Nocturnal than the overly large Redguard wearing a Crown Store costume did.... If they weren't even going to try, why didn't they just add a shadow aura to the statue right behind her and call it good.

FakeFox · June 2018

Morrowind and Skyrim take place after ESO, so it makes sense in my opinion that nocturnal has changed her approach after failing in Summerset.

On the appearance I totally agree though.

Enslaved · June 2018

Trying to figure lore in a game that shunned its own lore is sad job. When TES IV comes out I bet all ESO related stuff will be shunned as well and so on and so forth.

BTW, I agree with OP.

Ankael07 · June 2018

Nocturnal is the Ur-Dra, meaning she is literally void-born/incarnate. She existed when there was only Anuiel and Sithis. This is first mentioned in one of Kirkbride's half lunatic half genius writings (out of games) and Sotha Sil made it canon in the CWC quest line.

Side note: Unlike other Princes Nocturnal is does not represent a single sphere of influence. The only thing clearly known about her is that shes unknowable, mysterious. That coupled with being an ancient even amongst Princes makes me expect anything from her (my headcanon)

elias.stormneb18_ESO · June 2018

Nocturnal's goal isn't do destroy Nirn in Summerset—it is to achieve omnipresence in the entire Aurbis using the Crystal Tower (that is outright stated); whether she cares about Mundial affairs or not is irrelevant. That the goal is to remake Nirn is just something the Triad told their followers. As for Nocturnal's Earl, she needed someone to represent her in the Court of Bedlam (as you said, she can't really be bothered too much with the Mundial affairs herself), and who would be better for the job than someone who is prophesied to bring about the end of the world, like Veya is? Also, all that's said about Nocturnal's age is that she existed before the Mundus was conceived, and that Mephala and Vile are "fledglings" in comparison; that could mean lots of things, but most likely it simply means that Nocturnal's sphere and status as Daedric Prince was established before the other Princes', before the creation of Nirn. There's nothing odd about that—Nocturnal just rose to a position of power before the other Princes distinguished themselves from the countless other et'Ada that existed before time—there is no previous lore that would contradict that idea. This would also explain Nocturnal's title as Ur-dra (although other Princes, like Hermaeus Mora, would lay claim to similar titles).

TelvanniWizard · June 2018

Zos doesn´t care for lore. It cares for

WhiteCoatSyndrome · June 2018

To be fair, the Daedric Prince of Pixelation doesn't have to deal with Akatosh's covenant during the ESO timeframe, and she does in ESV: Skyrim. I will also note that the Thieves Guild was more or less just founded in ESO, so she may not have the Nightingales in the same form as she does in Skyrim. That said, these are fan hand-waves; ZoS stomped all over the lore for Summerset in general, so I doubt they bothered to justify anything as far as Nocturnal's tactics were concerned.

VerboseQuips · June 2018

That Nocturnal looks like a Redguard might not be totally absurd.

By the way, I was re-reading Mankar Camoran's Commentaries recently, and I stumbled on this sentence, whose meaning I can't figure out, but which I find fascinating...
"Hides of dreugh: 7 and 7, draught of Oil, 1 and 1, circles drawn by wet Dibellites: three concentric and let their lower blood fall where it may, a birth watched by blackbirds: Hearthfire 1st. Incant the following when your hearing becomes blurred:"

The book seems to refer to events from a previous kalpa. This line about a birth witnessed by blackbirds seems really Nocturnal-ish to me. Also, it happens on the first of Hearthfire. This is also the month where Nocturnal is supposed to be invoked. There is a mention of Dibellites, and in one version of the Ghraewaj, the character that is assumed to be linked to Nocturnal revers Dibella... I have the feeling that Bethesda/ZOS has been hiding things about Nocturnal for a long time, and that we're only starting to get clues about it...

Maura_Neysa · June 2018

VerboseQuips wrote: »

That Nocturnal looks like a Redguard might not be totally absurd.

Don't see how this is related at all. It says Harpies, not talking Crows. It suggest Noctyr'a worshiped Debella, but ESO suggested Nocturnal is older than the Deadra.
If anything Elias explanation is the most satisfying of any of them. The only issue I have with his, is that if that is who Nocturnal is and what she wanted, why the ell did the make her come across so petty. Oh and of course if she is so unknowable then again why the epic failure of presence instead of something far less knowing than a Redguard in a Crown Store costume.
For example instead of the "I except your terms" kills him. Why not utter darkness and the Heart and Nocturnal are gone once it lifts.

Maura_Neysa · June 2018

Ankael07 wrote: »

Nocturnal is the Ur-Dra, meaning she is literally void-born/incarnate. She existed when there was only Anuiel and Sithis. This is first mentioned in one of Kirkbride's half lunatic half genius writings (out of games) and Sotha Sil made it canon in the CWC quest line.

Side note: Unlike other Princes Nocturnal is does not represent a single sphere of influence. The only thing clearly known about her is that shes unknowable, mysterious. That coupled with being an ancient even amongst Princes makes me expect anything from her (my headcanon)

elias.stormneb18_ESO wrote: »

Nocturnal's goal isn't do destroy Nirn in Summerset—it is to achieve omnipresence in the entire Aurbis using the Crystal Tower (that is outright stated); whether she cares about Mundial affairs or not is irrelevant. That the goal is to remake Nirn is just something the Triad told their followers. As for Nocturnal's Earl, she needed someone to represent her in the Court of Bedlam (as you said, she can't really be bothered too much with the Mundial affairs herself), and who would be better for the job than someone who is prophesied to bring about the end of the world, like Veya is? Also, all that's said about Nocturnal's age is that she existed before the Mundus was conceived, and that Mephala and Vile are "fledglings" in comparison; that could mean lots of things, but most likely it simply means that Nocturnal's sphere and status as Daedric Prince was established before the other Princes', before the creation of Nirn. There's nothing odd about that—Nocturnal just rose to a position of power before the other Princes distinguished themselves from the countless other et'Ada that existed before time—there is no previous lore that would contradict that idea. This would also explain Nocturnal's title as Ur-dra (although other Princes, like Hermaeus Mora, would lay claim to similar titles).

These are the closest things to safisfying explinations however
@Ankael07 Nocturnal does represent multiple spheres, along with night/darkness she also represents luck. Though this could be explained away via past Nightingales no longer in her service in the after life helping the living
@elias.stormneb18_ESO From what I can tell from Lore Nocturnal's place as Ur-Dra isn't necessarily completly acurate. While she claims it her self and i dont know of anyone who is disputing it. Nirma is actually the one associated with the Void, the absence of everything while Nocturnal is associated with darkness and mystery. While she may be one of the older Daedric Princes, others seem older than she, Herma for one.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · June 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

VerboseQuips wrote: »

That Nocturnal looks like a Redguard might not be totally absurd.

Don't see how this is related at all. It says Harpies, not talking Crows. It suggest Noctyr'a worshiped Debella, but ESO suggested Nocturnal is older than the Deadra.
If anything Elias explanation is the most satisfying of any of them. The only issue I have with his, is that if that is who Nocturnal is and what she wanted, why the ell did the make her come across so petty. Oh and of course if she is so unknowable then again why the epic failure of presence instead of something far less knowing than a Redguard in a Crown Store costume.
For example instead of the "I except your terms" kills him. Why not utter darkness and the Heart and Nocturnal are gone once it lifts.

The first telling of the story spells out that she gets turned into a 'giant black bird' by the robe. You also missed this line at the end:

the Daedra Princes is named Nocturnal, who is often portrayed as a beautiful dark woman holding two black crows. It is not a difficult etymologic trick to derive the name Noctyr-a from Nocturnal, or vice-versa.

Of course it also says she's beautiful which her appearance in Summerset is not, but Redguard fits with the text.

Maura_Neysa · June 2018

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

VerboseQuips wrote: »

That Nocturnal looks like a Redguard might not be totally absurd.

Don't see how this is related at all. It says Harpies, not talking Crows. It suggest Noctyr'a worshiped Debella, but ESO suggested Nocturnal is older than the Deadra.
If anything Elias explanation is the most satisfying of any of them. The only issue I have with his, is that if that is who Nocturnal is and what she wanted, why the ell did the make her come across so petty. Oh and of course if she is so unknowable then again why the epic failure of presence instead of something far less knowing than a Redguard in a Crown Store costume.
For example instead of the "I except your terms" kills him. Why not utter darkness and the Heart and Nocturnal are gone once it lifts.

The first telling of the story spells out that she gets turned into a 'giant black bird' by the robe. You also missed this line at the end:

the Daedra Princes is named Nocturnal, who is often portrayed as a beautiful dark woman holding two black crows. It is not a difficult etymologic trick to derive the name Noctyr-a from Nocturnal, or vice-versa.

Of course it also says she's beautiful which her appearance in Summerset is not, but Redguard fits with the text.

Harpies and crows are very different things. As well as this story is in complete opposition to the Summerset one. How is someone who is older than the Daedra also young and niave enough to be tricked my a mortal?

Not to mention stores of a group eating one of there own sounds a whole lot more like a Vermina origin then Nocturnal. That sisterhood was into murder, Sithis, rather than thieving. The only thing even remotely "Norcturnal" about that story is the name Noctyr'a

VerboseQuips · June 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

VerboseQuips wrote: »

That Nocturnal looks like a Redguard might not be totally absurd.

Don't see how this is related at all. It says Harpies, not talking Crows. It suggest Noctyr'a worshiped Debella, but ESO suggested Nocturnal is older than the Deadra.
If anything Elias explanation is the most satisfying of any of them. The only issue I have with his, is that if that is who Nocturnal is and what she wanted, why the ell did the make her come across so petty. Oh and of course if she is so unknowable then again why the epic failure of presence instead of something far less knowing than a Redguard in a Crown Store costume.
For example instead of the "I except your terms" kills him. Why not utter darkness and the Heart and Nocturnal are gone once it lifts.

The first telling of the story spells out that she gets turned into a 'giant black bird' by the robe. You also missed this line at the end:

the Daedra Princes is named Nocturnal, who is often portrayed as a beautiful dark woman holding two black crows. It is not a difficult etymologic trick to derive the name Noctyr-a from Nocturnal, or vice-versa.

Of course it also says she's beautiful which her appearance in Summerset is not, but Redguard fits with the text.

Harpies and crows are very different things. As well as this story is in complete opposition to the Summerset one. How is someone who is older than the Daedra also young and niave enough to be tricked my a mortal?

Not to mention stores of a group eating one of there own sounds a whole lot more like a Vermina origin then Nocturnal. That sisterhood was into murder, Sithis, rather than thieving. The only thing even remotely "Norcturnal" about that story is the name Noctyr'a

Well, the very name of the play, Ghraewaj, refers to Crows, not Harpies. Imagine Redguards being confronted to talking Crows, and then telling the story to their peers. After a few generations, the Redguards, who live in an environment where Harpies exist and where talking Crows are usually nowhere to be seen, could very well (and quite logically) have concluded that this old story about talking Crows must be something about Harpies...

I don't think I understand the concept of mantling well yet, but maybe Noctyr-a did something similar as what the Champion of Cyrodiil did with Sheogorath? That is, Nortyr-a at some point came to incarnate a concept that was much older than she is? If yes, that could explain how someone young and naive can be someone older than most Daedra. She was not, but she "mantled" Her. (And if this story is about a mantling, then it is perhaps not coincidental that she became something else by wearing some garment.)

Or there is also the possibility that the Ghraewaj would be a very deformed tale refering to something much older. Some kind of echo in the collective memory of a fundamental yet mysterious fact. That's where I think the reference to Dibella in both the Ghraewaj and the Mythic Dawn Commentaries might be significant.
But let me repeat, I have no idea about the origins of Nocturnal. I don't understand how to piece together those clues (I think they are clues), and I have the feeling ZOS/Beth aren't done revealing stuff about her. To be honnest, I find it quite exciting for the future DLCs or games.

notimetocare · June 2018

Enslaved wrote: »

Trying to figure lore in a game that shunned its own lore is sad job. When TES IV comes out I bet all ESO related stuff will be shunned as well and so on and so forth.

BTW, I agree with OP.

IV is old, u mean VI

Beamer_Miasma · June 2018

The formation of the Nightingale Trinity is over 7 centuries in the future of ESO (in the next era), it's not at all relevant to anything that happens in ESO. The Nightingales don't exist, they haven't been conceived yet, and nothing the Nightingales ever will do has any effect on the lore of the 2nd era. The item that leads to their formation (Skeleton Key) is at present time in the possession of Divayth Fyr and is not known to resurface until the late 4th century of the 3rd era.

Brigda · June 2018

I got around this by just flatly ignoring the complete nonsense that was the Nocturnal hackjob in the Summerset quests.
*thumbs up*

Necrus011 · June 2018

This lore issue with Nocturnal has bothered me since Clockwork City, but Summerset really doubled down on the lack of consistency. I have tried to come up with some reasonable headcanon to explain it, but I just can't convince myself. Especially after hearing the over-the-top voice acting after every Abyssal Geyser.

I made mention of this in the previously mentioned thread trashing Nocturnal's appearance, but it is almost as if they got Nocturnal confused with Namira. Even the enemies introduced in Summerset seem more appropriate to here sphere of ancient darkness as many are creatures that typically live deep below the city (Yahgra) or in subterranean areas (salamanders), or both (Sload). The Book of Daedra even says Namira "is often associated with spiders, insects, slugs, and other repulsive creatures which inspire mortals with an instinctive revulsion." That sure sounds most of the new creatures added in Summerset. As mentioned in a post above, the whole Ur-Daedra thing makes much more sense for Namira, barring one obscure OOG text.

This isn't really the first time this has happened though. The other Big Bad Daedra of the main story, Molag Bal, has some qualities that don't exactly match up with previous lore. Enslavement and domination make sense, but "God of Schemes" sure sounds a lot like his rival Boethiah "The Prince of Plots." Perhaps their rivalry stems from synonym preference. Also, why are the Vaults of Madness located in Coldharbor and not Sheogorath's Shivering Isle as their name would imply?

Maura_Neysa · June 2018

Necrus011 wrote: »

This lore issue with Nocturnal has bothered me since Clockwork City, but Summerset really doubled down on the lack of consistency. I have tried to come up with some reasonable headcanon to explain it, but I just can't convince myself. Especially after hearing the over-the-top voice acting after every Abyssal Geyser.

A lot of the reason why I made this post. Hoping someone could give me something to make this new Nocturnal canon not hurt so much.

I made mention of this in the previously mentioned thread trashing Nocturnal's appearance, but it is almost as if they got Nocturnal confused with Namira. Even the enemies introduced in Summerset seem more appropriate to here sphere of ancient darkness as many are creatures that typically live deep below the city (Yahgra) or in subterranean areas (salamanders), or both (Sload). The Book of Daedra even says Namira "is often associated with spiders, insects, slugs, and other repulsive creatures which inspire mortals with an instinctive revulsion." That sure sounds most of the new creatures added in Summerset. As mentioned in a post above, the whole Ur-Daedra thing makes much more sense for Namira, barring one obscure OOG text.

And the sound they all make when they die. I swear they just recorded someone actually stepping on a slug

Maura_Neysa · June 2018

Beamer_Miasma wrote: »

The formation of the Nightingale Trinity is over 7 centuries in the future of ESO (in the next era), it's not at all relevant to anything that happens in ESO. The Nightingales don't exist, they haven't been conceived yet, and nothing the Nightingales ever will do has any effect on the lore of the 2nd era. The item that leads to their formation (Skeleton Key) is at present time in the possession of Divayth Fyr and is not known to resurface until the late 4th century of the 3rd era.

Nightingale Volume II "Our history begins with a well-known tale. The tome "The Real Barenziah IX" mentions that a bard named "Nightingale" tricked Queen Barenziah" Queen Barenziah born 2E 893 Morrowind. Thats only 300 years after ESO (2E 583). Oh and the Skeleton Key is mentioned in the same story, so slightly earlier than the the 3rd Era.
Now it would make sense that the theif of the Skelton Key and Sotha Sil's decsion to hide it is exactly the reason Nocturnal chooses to form the Nightingales. Still only 300 years to turn into the most passive Daedric Prince of them all?

Brief Timeline

1E 0 First Era begins when King Eplear founds the Camoran Dynasty
1E 242 The first empire of Cyrodiil is formed, the Alessian Empire
1E 700 The Dwemer people disappear suddenly around this time
1E 2920 Last recorded event of the First Era, Morag Tong assassinates the current King of Cyrodiil, King Reman III.
2E 0 At an early, undetermined time, the Dark Brotherhood is formed
2E 230 Vanus Galerion forms The Mages Guild
2E 321 Guilds act is passed, sanctioning many guilds
2E 321 The Fighters Guild is formed
2E 583 Events of Elder Scrolls Online take place
2E 830 Tiber Septim is born
2E 283 Queen Barenziah Born, some years later has a daughter with the first know Nightingale
2E 895 Tiber Septim, also known as Talos, begins conquering Tamriel
2E 897 Tiber Septim declares the Second Era over
3E 399 The events of Elder Scrolls: Arena takes place
3E 405 The events of Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall take place
3E 427 The events of Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind take place
3E 428 The events of Elder Scrolls III: Tribunal take place
3E 429 The events of Elder Scrolls III: Bloodmoon take place
3E 433 The events of Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion takes place
3E 433 The Third Era comes to an end with the close of the Oblivion Crisis
4E 1 The events of the Fourth Era begin with the events of the Knights of the Nine DLC for Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
4E 201 The events of Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, and all DLC take place

Side note, how did you get 3E 400 Skeleton Key resurfaces, when Elder Scrolls V is only 4E 201?
Lore references from UESP
Timeline reference from IGN

Aliyavana · June 2018

Necrus011 wrote: »

This lore issue with Nocturnal has bothered me since Clockwork City, but Summerset really doubled down on the lack of consistency. I have tried to come up with some reasonable headcanon to explain it, but I just can't convince myself. Especially after hearing the over-the-top voice acting after every Abyssal Geyser.

I made mention of this in the previously mentioned thread trashing Nocturnal's appearance, but it is almost as if they got Nocturnal confused with Namira. Even the enemies introduced in Summerset seem more appropriate to here sphere of ancient darkness as many are creatures that typically live deep below the city (Yahgra) or in subterranean areas (salamanders), or both (Sload). The Book of Daedra even says Namira "is often associated with spiders, insects, slugs, and other repulsive creatures which inspire mortals with an instinctive revulsion." That sure sounds most of the new creatures added in Summerset. As mentioned in a post above, the whole Ur-Daedra thing makes much more sense for Namira, barring one obscure OOG text.

This isn't really the first time this has happened though. The other Big Bad Daedra of the main story, Molag Bal, has some qualities that don't exactly match up with previous lore. Enslavement and domination make sense, but "God of Schemes" sure sounds a lot like his rival Boethiah "The Prince of Plots." Perhaps their rivalry stems from synonym preference. Also, why are the Vaults of Madness located in Coldharbor and not Sheogorath's Shivering Isle as their name would imply?

The abyssal geysers are machinations of the sloads. Nocturnal just took them over after the ktora died

VaranisArano · June 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Beamer_Miasma wrote: »

The formation of the Nightingale Trinity is over 7 centuries in the future of ESO (in the next era), it's not at all relevant to anything that happens in ESO. The Nightingales don't exist, they haven't been conceived yet, and nothing the Nightingales ever will do has any effect on the lore of the 2nd era. The item that leads to their formation (Skeleton Key) is at present time in the possession of Divayth Fyr and is not known to resurface until the late 4th century of the 3rd era.

Nightingale Volume II "Our history begins with a well-known tale. The tome "The Real Barenziah IX" mentions that a bard named "Nightingale" tricked Queen Barenziah" Queen Barenziah born 2E 893 Morrowind. Thats only 300 years after ESO (2E 583). Oh and the Skeleton Key is mentioned in the same story, so slightly earlier than the the 3rd Era.
Now it would make sense that the theif of the Skelton Key and Sotha Sil's decsion to hide it is exactly the reason Nocturnal chooses to form the Nightingales. Still only 300 years to turn into the most passive Daedric Prince of them all?

Brief Timeline
1E 0 First Era begins when King Eplear founds the Camoran Dynasty
1E 242 The first empire of Cyrodiil is formed, the Alessian Empire
1E 700 The Dwemer people disappear suddenly around this time
1E 2920 Last recorded event of the First Era, Morag Tong assassinates the current King of Cyrodiil, King Reman III.
2E 0 At an early, undetermined time, the Dark Brotherhood is formed
2E 230 Vanus Galerion forms The Mages Guild
2E 321 Guilds act is passed, sanctioning many guilds
2E 321 The Fighters Guild is formed
2E 583 Events of Elder Scrolls Online take place
2E 830 Tiber Septim is born
2E 283 Queen Barenziah Born, some years later has a daughter with the first know Nightingale
2E 895 Tiber Septim, also known as Talos, begins conquering Tamriel
2E 897 Tiber Septim declares the Second Era over
3E 399 The events of Elder Scrolls: Arena takes place
3E 405 The events of Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall take place
3E 427 The events of Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind take place
3E 428 The events of Elder Scrolls III: Tribunal take place
3E 429 The events of Elder Scrolls III: Bloodmoon take place
3E 433 The events of Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion takes place
3E 433 The Third Era comes to an end with the close of the Oblivion Crisis
4E 1 The events of the Fourth Era begin with the events of the Knights of the Nine DLC for Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
4E 201 The events of Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, and all DLC take place
Side note, how did you get 3E 400 Skeleton Key resurfaces, when Elder Scrolls V is only 4E 201?
Lore references from UESP
Timeline reference from IGN

The Skeleton Key is present in TES 4 Oblivion. You get it from Nocturnal's Daedric quest. http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Skeleton_Key

adriant1978 · June 2018

Necrus011 wrote: »

I made mention of this in the previously mentioned thread trashing Nocturnal's appearance, but it is almost as if they got Nocturnal confused with Namira. Even the enemies introduced in Summerset seem more appropriate to here sphere of ancient darkness as many are creatures that typically live deep below the city (Yahgra) or in subterranean areas (salamanders), or both (Sload). The Book of Daedra even says Namira "is often associated with spiders, insects, slugs, and other repulsive creatures which inspire mortals with an instinctive revulsion." That sure sounds most of the new creatures added in Summerset. As mentioned in a post above, the whole Ur-Daedra thing makes much more sense for Namira, barring one obscure OOG text.

The Yaghra are the minions of the Sload, not Nocturnal, but otherwise I am tempted to agree with you. Always thought of Nocturnal as being more about night, shadow, and the things (thieving) that you can do under cover of such. The idea of "darkness" as a pure concept seems to fit better with Namira, IMO.

Necrus011 wrote: »

This isn't really the first time this has happened though. The other Big Bad Daedra of the main story, Molag Bal, has some qualities that don't exactly match up with previous lore. Enslavement and domination make sense, but "God of Schemes" sure sounds a lot like his rival Boethiah "The Prince of Plots."

He was called "God of Schemes" in a lore book which predates ESO, but to be honest I think they mostly went with this because a game where the villain is constansly referred to as the "King of ... non-consensual sex" would not sell too well.

LickingHistSap · June 2018

Nocturnal isn't the most passive Daedric Prince, she's the most discreet Daedric Prince. She's the god of thieves and deceit, none of her plans are obvious or out in the open.

In Summerset, it's shown that Nocturnal has been planning literally every aspect of this plan out since the end of the First Era, presumably starting the moment the Reman Empire fell. That's over 500 years of working via the shadows, and nobody catching a single whiff of her plans during it. Not even the other Daedric Princes were aware of Nocturnals plotting until the last few years, which were the final few steps in her plan. The obvious takeaway from this is that none of Nocturnals plans are obvious to Mortals, and this fits perfectly into her sphere.

Let me reiterate, she spent the last five hundred years plotting this out and planning to steal the power of every other god in existence, with nobody ever catching on to her plans, and no mortals even being aware of this until the last year. How does this NOT fit in Nocturnals sphere?

BigBadVolk · June 2018

LickingHistSap wrote: »

Nocturnal isn't the most passive Daedric Prince, she's the most discreet Daedric Prince. She's the god of thieves and deceit, none of her plans are obvious or out in the open.

In Summerset, it's shown that Nocturnal has been planning literally every aspect of this plan out since the end of the First Era, presumably starting the moment the Reman Empire fell. That's over 500 years of working via the shadows, and nobody catching a single whiff of her plans during it. Not even the other Daedric Princes were aware of Nocturnals plotting until the last few years, which were the final few steps in her plan. The obvious takeaway from this is that none of Nocturnals plans are obvious to Mortals, and this fits perfectly into her sphere.

Let me reiterate, she spent the last five hundred years plotting this out and planning to steal the power of every other god in existence, with nobody ever catching on to her plans, and no mortals even being aware of this until the last year. How does this NOT fit in Nocturnals sphere?

Ye, it pretty much sums up Nocturnal, and imo ESO mostly represents Daedric Princes in their darkest times, if this is a correct way to say it, I mean in the main games, usually only the more destructive princes have kinda the evil vibe, while we know that most of them are selfish, and ESO shows this part of the Daedric Princes, like for example Hircine in the Malabal Tor Zone questline and prob in the next Dungeon DLC, + probably Meridia in the future if we're correct about the last hint at the end of Summerset Isles MQ

Korah_Eaglecry · June 2018

Necrus011 wrote: »

This lore issue with Nocturnal has bothered me since Clockwork City, but Summerset really doubled down on the lack of consistency. I have tried to come up with some reasonable headcanon to explain it, but I just can't convince myself. Especially after hearing the over-the-top voice acting after every Abyssal Geyser.

I made mention of this in the previously mentioned thread trashing Nocturnal's appearance, but it is almost as if they got Nocturnal confused with Namira. Even the enemies introduced in Summerset seem more appropriate to here sphere of ancient darkness as many are creatures that typically live deep below the city (Yahgra) or in subterranean areas (salamanders), or both (Sload). The Book of Daedra even says Namira "is often associated with spiders, insects, slugs, and other repulsive creatures which inspire mortals with an instinctive revulsion." That sure sounds most of the new creatures added in Summerset. As mentioned in a post above, the whole Ur-Daedra thing makes much more sense for Namira, barring one obscure OOG text.

This isn't really the first time this has happened though. The other Big Bad Daedra of the main story, Molag Bal, has some qualities that don't exactly match up with previous lore. Enslavement and domination make sense, but "God of Schemes" sure sounds a lot like his rival Boethiah "The Prince of Plots." Perhaps their rivalry stems from synonym preference. Also, why are the Vaults of Madness located in Coldharbor and not Sheogorath's Shivering Isle as their name would imply?

If you really dig into a lot of the daedra, and even the aedra youll notice quite a bit of cross over and mixing of spheres. Both Dibella and Mara are the goddesses of love, and Dibella is associated with sex same as Mephala. You could even argue that Sanguine and Molag Bal have their daedric fingers in that sphere as well. Cross over is going to happen when you have concepts that can easily cross and blur lines between them.

ascan7 · July 2018

Honestly i was surprised about Nocturnal's behaviour too. Out of the 3 daedra in the court of bedlam, which she is the big baddie that want to take over EVERYTHING? Both clavicu vile and mephala looks like a better choice in that regard.

PrayingSeraph · July 2018

This thread seems more like disliking the eso lore rather than pointing out any actual contradiction. Daedric Princes are gods with wills of their own. Nocturnal's thinking and motives are mysterious even to her own followers. The idea that she would create a secret plan during the 2nd era to take over the Aurbis is not out of the question.

Beamer_Miasma · July 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Beamer_Miasma wrote: »

The formation of the Nightingale Trinity is over 7 centuries in the future of ESO (in the next era), it's not at all relevant to anything that happens in ESO. The Nightingales don't exist, they haven't been conceived yet, and nothing the Nightingales ever will do has any effect on the lore of the 2nd era. The item that leads to their formation (Skeleton Key) is at present time in the possession of Divayth Fyr and is not known to resurface until the late 4th century of the 3rd era.

Nightingale Volume II "Our history begins with a well-known tale. The tome "The Real Barenziah IX" mentions that a bard named "Nightingale" tricked Queen Barenziah" Queen Barenziah born 2E 893 Morrowind. Thats only 300 years after ESO (2E 583). Oh and the Skeleton Key is mentioned in the same story, so slightly earlier than the the 3rd Era.
Now it would make sense that the theif of the Skelton Key and Sotha Sil's decsion to hide it is exactly the reason Nocturnal chooses to form the Nightingales. Still only 300 years to turn into the most passive Daedric Prince of them all?

Brief Timeline
1E 0 First Era begins when King Eplear founds the Camoran Dynasty
1E 242 The first empire of Cyrodiil is formed, the Alessian Empire
1E 700 The Dwemer people disappear suddenly around this time
1E 2920 Last recorded event of the First Era, Morag Tong assassinates the current King of Cyrodiil, King Reman III.
2E 0 At an early, undetermined time, the Dark Brotherhood is formed
2E 230 Vanus Galerion forms The Mages Guild
2E 321 Guilds act is passed, sanctioning many guilds
2E 321 The Fighters Guild is formed
2E 583 Events of Elder Scrolls Online take place
2E 830 Tiber Septim is born
2E 283 Queen Barenziah Born, some years later has a daughter with the first know Nightingale
2E 895 Tiber Septim, also known as Talos, begins conquering Tamriel
2E 897 Tiber Septim declares the Second Era over
3E 399 The events of Elder Scrolls: Arena takes place
3E 405 The events of Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall take place
3E 427 The events of Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind take place
3E 428 The events of Elder Scrolls III: Tribunal take place
3E 429 The events of Elder Scrolls III: Bloodmoon take place
3E 433 The events of Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion takes place
3E 433 The Third Era comes to an end with the close of the Oblivion Crisis
4E 1 The events of the Fourth Era begin with the events of the Knights of the Nine DLC for Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
4E 201 The events of Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, and all DLC take place
Side note, how did you get 3E 400 Skeleton Key resurfaces, when Elder Scrolls V is only 4E 201?
Lore references from UESP
Timeline reference from IGN

According to the Nightingales themselves, the offspring of Barenziah and The Nightingale went on to become the first Nightingale, however no timeline is given for when that exactly happens afaik. I think you are overlooking how incredibly long Barenziah lived - "some years later" may make it sound as if she had a child in her 20s but in fact even though she was born in the 2nd era, her first child wasn't born until 3E 376 (source: uesp Lore article on Barenziah).

The first solid identification of a Nightingale is in the late 4th century of the 3rd era, there is debate whether that was Jagar Tharn (according to the historians) or Drayven Indoril (according to the Nightingales themselves) but, again afaik, the date itself is not under debate (source: uesp Lore article on the Nightingale Trinity).

The official telling of history says that after Divayth Fyr gets his hands on the Skeleton Key, it does not reappear again until the Imperial Simulacrum (3E389-399) when Gentleman Jim Stacey gets his hands on it. Of course future ES games may very well fill in this gap, I'm not saying it stays in Fyr's possession all that time however at this point that's all we really know for sure (source: uesp Lore article on the Skeleton Key).

I'm not sure I understand your question about TES:V/Skyrim, as that plays in the 4th era, much later yet again.