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Dungeon Finder NEEDS Changes

greenchesspiece
greenchesspiece
Soul Shriven
ESO dungeons are some of the best dungeons I've ever played in any MMO, and the Dungeon Finder is a great way to quickly join a group and have this experience without the grueling experience of finding a group manually. For those with guilds and enough online friends to avoid PUGs (pick-up groups), the dungeon finder is a simple and expedient way to not only run dungeons, but receive extra experience and rewards from the Random Dungeon option, but for those without this, it can be a flip of a coin as to whether you will enjoy yourself. I don't mind grouping with good players who want the typical party and dungeon experience, with a tank/healer/dps and strategically combating through the bosses, but I really do resent the Dungeon Finder when I am grouped with a high-CP, uber-geared player who wants to ignore the group dynamic and just farm the dungeon, whether for personal loot or to speed-level a friend's character. Time and time again, I've found myself in a group where the whole party isn't even instanced in and one player has already managed to solo the first boss by him/herself. Some players might shrug and think, "Easy experience, easy loot!" but it is ultimately game-ruining, especially when I am playing with friends who are lower-level or - more importantly - newer to the game, who don't really understand the dungeons yet.

I gave it some thought and I feel a few changes are needed to really bring the Dungeon Finder into a good place that will benefit all players. Here are some suggestions:

1. Disable Champion Points for Dungeon Finder
This one will probably be the most unpopular, but I think it is needed. The Dungeon Finder is primarily useful for players who can't form their own groups. Players with high CP who want to use those points in dungeons are still 100% capable of forming their own groups and joining instances from the world map. If you'd rather use the Dungeon Finder for ease of use, you should be willing to lose your CP points for one instance so you are closer to the abilities of your group. This retains the enjoyable and challenging nature of the content itself, prevents other players' experiences from being ruined by rude high-levels, and also brings a level of skill into the mix.

2. Allow Level Cap/Slider Option
In AvA, there are campaigns that say "players under level 50" and I think that should be applied to Dungeon Finder. Lower level players should have the option of deciding if they group with people 50+, and I think it'd really be a good idea to also allow an alternative two options to "group with any level" and "group with only 50+." OR... Just implement a slider in the Dungeon Finder that says what level variant you'd be willing to accept. For example, "Only group with players within X levels of myself." i.e. You are level 20, you select a variant of 10 levels, meaning players between 10 and 30 would be grouped with you. And of course if you are grouped with a high-level friend, some of those options would be grayed out.

3. Heavily Update the Dungeon Finder Algorithms
Also, this could perhaps be a simple matter of reprogramming the Dungeon Finder. If a player is noticed by the algorithm to be completing dungeons outside the range of his/her party members, or is recording doing seemingly all the work, they will be automatically grouped with other players of the same nature. If a 600+CP player is grouped with a level 20 player, maybe they are grouped with similar makeups i.e. another 600+CP player with their level 20 groupie. Patch the game to record some small details and stats about your dungeon running and truly renovate the Dungeon Finder so that it intelligently groups you with like-minded players.

4. OR Simply Disable Champion Points for the Random Dungeon Dailies
If all fails, a simple solution really might just be to disable CP for the daily dungeon quests. After all, why should ESO reward players who want to grind loot and EXP with more loot and EXP? Elder Scrolls is not a grind game. It's a story game. That's why all NPCs are voice-acted. That's why the lore is so rich and deep. That's why each dungeon has a quest and story to it. If it was about grinding, don't you think the game would tailor itself more to grinding instead of story? So, why reward these players who just want to grind-grind-grind, all the expense of other players, particularly those who are lower-level and likely newer players or at least players who aren't hugely regular? If they want to grind a dungeon, let them manually join them to get their CP points, but even then, I revert to #1, where if you really want to use the Dungeon Finder, you should be okay with your CP being disabled.

Dungeon finders are generally dangerous and risky tools in MMOs. They install an element of grinding into the game, and this is not always what that game needs. Why would I want to quest or explore Delves or any of those other game features if leveling requires running daily random dungeons over and over. Dungeons should be extensions of the Elder Scrolls experience, with challenge, strategy, story, and teamwork as key elements. The Dungeon Finder in its current state is dangerous to ESO as a game, because it's reducing the depth and richness of the game as as whole, and should definitely be changed in ways that may be drastic to some of these grinding players, but ultimately beneficial to the game itself.
  • LordGavus
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    Sounds like you'd just be better off asking for a no cp dungeon finder queue.
  • SydneyGrey
    SydneyGrey
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    I wouldn't want to do without my champion points in there, but it would be nice if there was an optional feature that will group people according to their approximate CP range.
    The only issue with that is that there are many dungeons where it might be impossible to get through if all four of the players are less than CP 200. They'd have to scale the difficulty of the dungeon down in a case like that, and I'm not sure that ZOS is that eager to have to scale all of the dungeons separately for different CP levels.

    (Or maybe they could close off certain dungeons for the lower CP groups, so that they can't get in at all until they are higher CP, but they could still do the easier dungeons.)
    Edited by SydneyGrey on 11 February 2018 08:29
  • DoctorESO
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    .
    Edited by DoctorESO on 23 September 2018 03:25
  • aeowulf
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    Need more tanks & healers playing for that. Also it feels like it bugs sometimes and you can wait 2 hrs as dps, or is that just a bad day... I wish it showed a queue counter so we had an idea how long we'd need to wait.

    I don't think many people would play no cp for PvE dungeons, its weakening their own toon which is the opposite of what most people want from MMO's
    Edited by aeowulf on 11 February 2018 08:49
  • WhoSlappedThePie
    WhoSlappedThePie
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    Just join a guild and make a group like that. Or add more friends?
    "It does not matter how slowly you go so long as you do not stop."

    Current Toons (Max CP):
    Magsorc Breton
    Magblade Darkelf
    Stam DK Redguard
    Healer Templar High Elf
    Tank DK Argonian
    Stamblade Redguard

    Completed: vHoF | vMoL | vSO | vSO HM | vAA | vAA HM | vHR | vHR HM | vMA | vDSA
  • magictucktuck
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    yeah idk if i agree my experiance is killed by low cp and high cp alike, cp 30s joing for vet city of ash... and cp 690's who cant kill the first boss on fungal 1

    EDIT: but i agree it NEEDS changes..
    Edited by magictucktuck on 11 February 2018 17:12
    PC-NA

    Necromancer

    Flawless Conqueror

    https://www.magictucktuck.com for my builds and guides!
  • idk
    idk
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    OP nailed the solution near the beginning of his/her firs paragraph. A decent guild make it easy to form a group and we have 5 guild slots. Really no reason not to be in one. We can form a group and still do the random dungeon.

    If you want requirements for your group in dungeons form your own group. If you think it is to much trouble or choose to not join a guild for this then that is a personal issue. Every one of the ideas posted about are extremely poor ideas.

    You will not punish me because I have good CP and basically each idea is designed to drive experienced players away from GF or segregate newer players from experienced players which is extremely short sighted in any MMORPG. Besides, it seems those that complain about their GF groups are generally going to be punished by all the ideas since they seem to not be amongst the strongest players.
  • LadyAstrum
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    Kind of feel like the range at which players are grouped together is too wide. I'm about 287 CP, so I can understand that lower levels want and need to go slower, and higher levels (specifically 500 +) want to rush through, but there are times you want to actually do the story, and you can't if a couple 690's want to run through everything.
    Edited by LadyAstrum on 11 February 2018 17:44
    ~ "You think me brutish? How do you imagine I view you?" - Molag Bal #misunderstood ~
  • redspecter23
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    Never expect the group finder to do things it's not designed to do. It will put together a group of 4 people and plop you in a dungeon. That's about it. Adding any variables on top of that will increase queue times. The best thing to do in every case is use group finder as your LAST means to fill a group. Use guild, friends list and zone first. Yes it pays off to be at least a bit social in this game. Your dungeon runs will be much more enjoyable if you run with like minded people and you simply can't guarantee that with group finder.
    Edited by redspecter23 on 11 February 2018 17:51
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    A no-CP groupfinder might be a cool idea but unless there are extra rewards or achievements added for it, I highly doubt there's going to be a large enough population to support it. Without rewards/achievements, the only people interested in it are likely to be new players who only want to play with other new players(the normal dungeons are designed to be completed with CP, btw) or experienced players looking for a challenge for the sake of challenge.

    However, in my experience, you can't use groupfinder to dictate behavior. You can't even force someone to actually play the role they queued up for (I've had level 16 fake tanks before), much less force people to wait for you to finish a quest, so what makes you think that excluding CP players or removing CP from a segment of the queue is going to help?

    If you want to complete a dungeon in "Story-mode" or with a guaranteed actual tank or healer, or as a training run for a low-level friend, you best bet is to make a pre-made group that agreed to your goals. Otherwise, the Random Groupfinder pairs you with random people, and there's no way to exclude jerks and impatient people from the queue.
  • xbobx
    xbobx
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    how about we make it so when I get a group I can actually go to them and not get the message that I failed to warp there because the instance is full
  • Kwik1
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    DoctorESO wrote: »
    Just don't make the dungeon queue (via further segregation or subgrouping) longer for DPS.

    LOL

    Most people play DPS. You really want them to make a fake tank and healer to help offset all the DPS in the game?!?!?

    If you want faster ques then play a healer/tank.
  • Kwik1
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    xbobx wrote: »
    how about we make it so when I get a group I can actually go to them and not get the message that I failed to warp there because the instance is full

    On PC this is usually caused my someone who just left and it seems a ghost is still there for a few minutes. I just keep trying and it lets me in after a bit.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    New (largely tongue-in-cheek) Options for Groupfinder Queues:
    • Just stick me in ANY dungeon with anybody and let's get this over with.
    • I'll do anything but the DLC dungeons, please.
    • Quests and Stories are awesome!
    • Speedruns Only, all slowpokes need not apply.
    • I only want players my level or higher, please.
    • I need a REAL tank, healer, and/or DPS, please. (Have a taunt, group heal or 10-15k+ DPS)

    I'm usually in the "Just stick me in ANY dungeon with anybody and let's get this over with" camp, which is the only one the groupfinder really supports - I'll admit it helps that I'm usually on my pure tank. Everything else, you can do by selecting specific dungeons or forming pre-made groups, or more likely, hopping into a random dungeon and expecting everyone else to follow along. If the queues were actually split up like this, you might have a better chance at finding like-minded players for your groups, but you'd also get a longer queue to go with it.

    Edited to add: If you can think of any more options for groupfinder queues that you see commonly asked for on the forums, feel free to suggest additions.
    Edited by VaranisArano on 11 February 2018 18:47
  • Lynx7386
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    Yea I dont like any of these ideas.

    The only thing we need to change for champion finder is some way of stopping fake tanks or fake healers from queuing up and not doing their jobs. I dont normally run dps, but whenever I do we end up with a tank that doesnt even have a taunt or use a shield (or even an ice staff). Yesterday we had a super frustrating fungal grotto 1 vet run where the "tank" was a warden with a lightning staff and resto staff, never taunted anything, and completely ignored the rest of the group. All he did was spam dive. We ended up having to kick him at the final boss because we kept wiping without someone to taunt and hold aggro.
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • Kwik1
    Kwik1
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    New (largely tongue-in-cheek) Options for Groupfinder Queues:
    • Just stick me in ANY dungeon with anybody and let's get this over with.
    • I'll do anything but the DLC dungeons, please.
    • Quests and Stories are awesome!
    • Speedruns Only, all slowpokes need not apply.
    • I only want players my level or higher, please.
    • I need a REAL tank, healer, and/or DPS, please. (Have a taunt, group heal or 10-15k+ DPS)

    I'm usually in the "Just stick me in ANY dungeon with anybody and let's get this over with" camp, which is the only one the groupfinder really supports - I'll admit it helps that I'm usually on my pure tank. Everything else, you can do by selecting specific dungeons or forming pre-made groups, or more likely, hopping into a random dungeon and expecting everyone else to follow along. If the queues were actually split up like this, you might have a better chance at finding like-minded players for your groups, but you'd also get a longer queue to go with it.

    Edited to add: If you can think of any more options for groupfinder queues that you see commonly asked for on the forums, feel free to suggest additions.

    What about grouping everyone by:

    * IQ ranges
    * Dog people
    * Cat people
    * Lizard people (looking at you Argonians!!)
    * Leet people with uber stuffz
  • Illurian
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    Thoroughly, laughably, bad suggestions. Here's why:

    1) Removing cp from the dungeon removes about 50% of the reason of even having cp at all. CP players still use the dungeon finder for pledges as using it gives a small buff to the group. This suggestion is especially laughable since anyone below CP160 is scaled up to CP160 as it is. Removing cp from the dungeon finder would require revamping the entire battle leveling system since One Tamriel.

    2) A level cap/slider option already exists: asking people in zone/guild chat for like-minded individuals. A cap/slider option will also only cause further segregation of the PUG community, which will only cause current low levels to be further excluded from finding groups for dungeons that they want to do, and only increase the already long wait time for dps players.

    3) Auto-segregation of the community is never a good thing for an MMO. It happens, but is almost always done so by the player base itself. It being a social construct, however, enables the few veteran players who actually enjoy helping and teaching new players the mechanics to do so in their own time. Many newer players who may or may not be experienced in MMOs but new to the game may want to learn from vets by doing the dungeons with them. Having a system that tracks your performance and changes the demographic that you are able to play with removes this possibility, and is a ridiculous, unnecessary system.

    4) Refer to point 1. You also added an argument here about how you don't feel like players who grind for loot and exp should be rewarded with loot and exp, to which I say: what? What in the hell are you talking about? Firstly, not everyone who has CP is a grinder who only cares about how much CP they have. Secondly, even if they were, in which illogical universe does it sound like a good idea to deny your player base what they want, simply just because? If using random daily dungeons is a way for them to get exp faster and that's all they care about, more power to them.


    Never have I ever heard an argument where players being too skilled was a problem.
    Kiss the chaos.
  • Oakmontowls_ESO
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    This is honestly a terrible idea. While the elder scrolls franchise is a story based series , this isn't an elderscrolls game. This is a mmo set in the elder scrolls universe. As such the problem you perceive isn't really a problem. If you want to experience the story of the dungeon either solo the normal version or form a group of like minded people.
  • Kwik1
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    It is very simple for me.

    I will que for a Vet dungeon with my tank or healer and right from the beginning I tell people if I know a dungeon well or not and tell them I will have no hard feelings if they boot me. I am CP370 and only been booted twice and both times were when I was in a DLC vet dungeon and they didn't want to take chances.

    Guess what? I had no hard feelings. I was booted and I could reque and try again.
  • DeadlyRecluse
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    PvE is the last place that needs noCP options, imo.
    Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub
  • zaria
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    aeowulf wrote: »
    Need more tanks & healers playing for that. Also it feels like it bugs sometimes and you can wait 2 hrs as dps, or is that just a bad day... I wish it showed a queue counter so we had an idea how long we'd need to wait.

    I don't think many people would play no cp for PvE dungeons, its weakening their own toon which is the opposite of what most people want from MMO's
    This
    No cp pvp makes sense as you play against other players, CP give bonuses to both damage and resistance, the cp bonuses are not astronomical think its 25% from 160 to 690 with 20% gained at cp 500, however its both damage an resistance
    I prefer no cp pvp myself even at cp690 as its more causal and overall skill level is lower so its aligns more with my skill level :)

    Non cp in pve makes no sense outside of making the dungeon harder for all, unless an vet no cp dungeon had serious bonuses it would be pretty pointless.

    Now it might be an idea to raise the cp requirements for ending in an vet dlc doing random vet to 300.
    On the same time I would reduce / drop the requirements for pre formed groups doing specific dungeons.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • LeagueTroll
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    Sounds totally unnecessary, git gud
  • DoctorESO
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    .
    Edited by DoctorESO on 23 September 2018 03:31
  • MehrunesFlagon
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    ESO dungeons are some of the best dungeons I've ever played in any MMO, and the Dungeon Finder is a great way to quickly join a group and have this experience without the grueling experience of finding a group manually. For those with guilds and enough online friends to avoid PUGs (pick-up groups), the dungeon finder is a simple and expedient way to not only run dungeons, but receive extra experience and rewards from the Random Dungeon option, but for those without this, it can be a flip of a coin as to whether you will enjoy yourself. I don't mind grouping with good players who want the typical party and dungeon experience, with a tank/healer/dps and strategically combating through the bosses, but I really do resent the Dungeon Finder when I am grouped with a high-CP, uber-geared player who wants to ignore the group dynamic and just farm the dungeon, whether for personal loot or to speed-level a friend's character. Time and time again, I've found myself in a group where the whole party isn't even instanced in and one player has already managed to solo the first boss by him/herself. Some players might shrug and think, "Easy experience, easy loot!" but it is ultimately game-ruining, especially when I am playing with friends who are lower-level or - more importantly - newer to the game, who don't really understand the dungeons yet.

    I gave it some thought and I feel a few changes are needed to really bring the Dungeon Finder into a good place that will benefit all players. Here are some suggestions:

    1. Disable Champion Points for Dungeon Finder
    This one will probably be the most unpopular, but I think it is needed. The Dungeon Finder is primarily useful for players who can't form their own groups. Players with high CP who want to use those points in dungeons are still 100% capable of forming their own groups and joining instances from the world map. If you'd rather use the Dungeon Finder for ease of use, you should be willing to lose your CP points for one instance so you are closer to the abilities of your group. This retains the enjoyable and challenging nature of the content itself, prevents other players' experiences from being ruined by rude high-levels, and also brings a level of skill into the mix.


    4. OR Simply Disable Champion Points for the Random Dungeon Dailies
    If all fails, a simple solution really might just be to disable CP for the daily dungeon quests. After all, why should ESO reward players who want to grind loot and EXP with more loot and EXP? Elder Scrolls is not a grind game. It's a story game. That's why all NPCs are voice-acted. That's why the lore is so rich and deep. That's why each dungeon has a quest and story to it. If it was about grinding, don't you think the game would tailor itself more to grinding instead of story? So, why reward these players who just want to grind-grind-grind, all the expense of other players, particularly those who are lower-level and likely newer players or at least players who aren't hugely regular? If they want to grind a dungeon, let them manually join them to get their CP points, but even then, I revert to #1, where if you really want to use the Dungeon Finder, you should be okay with your CP being disabled.

    The proposed changes to cp would not be good. You really have to bare in mind that these are designed with this in mind.My solution to this is to gate all vet dlc dungeons to cp 300. I even have some that I've grouped with that say they are too noob for this,and actually commend them for being able to admit it. Don't think I want to gate them out of the normal version those are usually fine 3 quarters of the group is terrible.Even on dlc.I speak only of the vet versions of the dungeons.
  • Jarryzzt
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    I'd rather just have a working DF queue.

    If I log on to the NA server during either EST or PST prime time, in a game that trumpets 2.5 million monthly active users (however that is defined), and it takes me an average of 15 minutes and, on some nights, >40 minutes of waiting in queue to get something...[The especially brilliant moments are when you queue up, within 5 minutes something pops up but one of the other people declines and then you wait for 40 minutes plus.]

    ...this should not happen. I get it, I am DPS in this game, but that still should not happen. Especially if I am trying to do a normal run, because those ought to have more players lining up (the ones under 50, for example).

    I have played a metric ton of MMO deathmatches and off-peak times on low-pop servers do not take 15 minutes on average to form two teams of fifteen players balanced across levels and roles. [Even if there are only 30-40 people in the queue, which you can see in real time by the way.] Never mind prime time on high-pop servers, that takes seconds. I understand ESO is a different environment to some degree, but this is where I come from. It is insanely frustrating.

    So either they do not have enough people in the queue - in prime time, mind - which sounds a bit daft; or forcing people into roles means 100 DPS are waiting for a single tank (and the solution to this is obvious - add the option for non-role locked runs, because non-DLC normal dungeons aren't difficult to begin with); or the system somehow segregates people lining up for randoms and specific ones that messes up the matching algorithm; or the matching system itself is just bugged (which would explain why after a group member declines you get "forgotten" for 40 minutes). Whatever it is, it should not be. In my opinion.

    So the OP has some ideas, other people have some ideas. My idea is simple - figure out why the wait times are what they are, which requires server-side analysis (that I cannot do, for obvious reasons), and bloody fix it. Fat chance, that, of course, but that's my two shillings.
  • LadyLethalla
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    Jarryzzt wrote: »
    If I log on to the NA server during either EST or PST prime time, in a game that trumpets 2.5 million monthly active users (however that is defined), and it takes me an average of 15 minutes and, on some nights, >40 minutes of waiting in queue to get something...[The especially brilliant moments are when you queue up, within 5 minutes something pops up but one of the other people declines and then you wait for 40 minutes plus.]

    When I log into NA, during the week, I can wait up to 3 hours for a damn normal dungeon. Then someone declines when it pops and I end up waiting longer. Mornings for me aren't much different. Weekends, I don't have this problem, but it's a rare weekday in my timezone that I'll actually get one let alone two pledges done.
    And before anyone says "join a guild!" I AM in a guild with people in my timezone, but when I asked in chat the other night if anyone wanted to do vet CoA2, I got no response. This of course is probably due to the fact that I am <300 CP on this server - no matter that I am familiar with the mechanics of this dungeon.

    x-TallyCat-x // PC EU DC - For the Covenant! // ESO Platinum trophy - 16th May 2017.
    Melbourne Australia - the land of Potato Internet.WTB ESO OCEANIC SERVER
  • MehrunesFlagon
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    Jarryzzt wrote: »
    If I log on to the NA server during either EST or PST prime time, in a game that trumpets 2.5 million monthly active users (however that is defined), and it takes me an average of 15 minutes and, on some nights, >40 minutes of waiting in queue to get something...[The especially brilliant moments are when you queue up, within 5 minutes something pops up but one of the other people declines and then you wait for 40 minutes plus.]

    When I log into NA, during the week, I can wait up to 3 hours for a damn normal dungeon. Then someone declines when it pops and I end up waiting longer. Mornings for me aren't much different. Weekends, I don't have this problem, but it's a rare weekday in my timezone that I'll actually get one let alone two pledges done.
    And before anyone says "join a guild!" I AM in a guild with people in my timezone, but when I asked in chat the other night if anyone wanted to do vet CoA2, I got no response. This of course is probably due to the fact that I am <300 CP on this server - no matter that I am familiar with the mechanics of this dungeon.

    I don't have this problem myself,and I queue as a dps. Most the time my queue is instant.
  • FearlessOne_2014
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    Most of us already found out the solution to the PUG issues.

    Simply get a guild group and/or a group of friends. Or don't bother with them at all.

    Group queue will always be sub optimal in this game. Because people can't simi pre-made group queue randoms from across the maps in this MMO. Other MMOs handles group finder perfectly. Like being able to advertise your group in all maps at once. There for group can agree on comp and players to run with. Before even stepping foot into the instance.

    However we don't have the option here in ESO. Therefor if you are not looking forward to, a 2 to 3 hour dungeon run with PUGs. Then your only option is to opt. out of running with PUGs altogether.

    Use your time more efficiently farm gold in those 2 to 3 hours. You'll be surprised what you can earn.Then you can pay one of the Elitists guild actually gold to run you through the content. Which is a fun payday like 75k gold each member per a run, plus what ever you get as drops. If you need to be carried that is.
  • Osteos
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    LadyAstrum wrote: »
    Kind of feel like the range at which players are grouped together is too wide. I'm about 287 CP, so I can understand that lower levels want and need to go slower, and higher levels (specifically 500 +) want to rush through, but there are times you want to actually do the story, and you can't if a couple 690's want to run through everything.

    People need to speak up more. I was healing in Darkshade 1 the other day. We finished and the tank ported out and a dps dropped group. I noticed the other dps health start to drop and he died. He had the quest but hadn't said anything so we didn't kill the boss near the turn in. I went over and helped him kill it and the tank was nice enough to port back in to help.

    There are so many groups with zero communication. I am sure that a lot of us have encountered jerks in our travels but I really think most people are nice.
    DAGGERFALL COVENANT
    NA PC
    Former Vehemence Member
    Onistka Valerius <> Artemis Renault <> Gonk gra-Ugrash <> Karietta <> Zercon at-Rusa <> Genevieve Renault <> Ktaka <> Brenlyn Renault
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