I have too much affection for the ... weird ambiguity of the Malacath/Trinimac story to set it aside.

Hmmm...

My head-cannon (shared with a few friends)

"The Beauty of Dawn" (if you have NOT heard Malukah sing, then go here now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwp8UxIY_iM
Anyway, this song is/was actually a prophecy predicting the soul breach and the "vestige/vestiges", given by one of the heads of Altmer House Caemaire and led directly to the founding of "The Order of the Dragon" (see the dragon tattoo option in the character creation screen); a Order concerned with guiding Tamriel safely through this crisis and working for the return of all the lost souls that Molag Bal has/will/could steal/stole.

The Nibenay Valley Dolmen was the location of one of the Chapterhouses of the Order of the Dragon (see above); as many of my characters are not only members of the order, but many died/were captured/were sacrificed in this battle/aftermath. My personal head cannon is that for Mol gro Durga in particular, when doing the main quest and Tharn goes off on his titles and how is the "protector" of that area; that Mol's reaction is to punch him in the nose.

edited for layout
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Bosmer males have been the smallest of the playable characters consistently since Morrowind (i.e. since there have been variations of height, at all). That the Bosmer are carnivorous, is at least as old as the 1st edition of the Pocket Guide (i.e. TES:Redguard).
It may still seem odd but it's not a problem that was created by ESO.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The decimation of House Telvanni after the red year, the oblivion crisis and argonian invasion and the extent of Redoran control doesn't add up. I would argue that if any of the Great Houses would be up for the challenge, it'd be House Telvanni. There are plenty of Telvanni mages capable of warping their tower in and out of existance to save their [snip], but according to Skyrim they suffered greatly, although not as great as House Dres, Hlaalu and Indoril. From what we hear in Dragonborn it almost sounds like there is only House Redoran and the other Great Houses just get to keep their virtually powerless titles (except Hlaalu which get replaced by Sadras).

Keep your head high; according to Neloth in Dragonborn, House Telvanni still has its holdings in Vvardenfell. Port Telvannis was likely untouched. Lymdrenn's journal was written from the perspective of someone on their last leg; House Telvanni falling was an assumption that was proven wrong by Neloth.

[Edited for quote]

Morrowind Altmer were the tallest race (and there was no height slider, so all Altmer were slightly taller than everyone else) - it's just that the difference was rather subtle. (Here is the breakdown.)

That aspect of the Green Pact was there from the beginning. The 1st ed. of the Pocket Guide to the Empire states about the Bosmer, for instance:

They are exclusively and religiously carnivorous. They cannot, or will not, eat anything that is plant-based.

Though they are excellent archers, the Green Pact forces their bowyers and fletchers to use bone or similar materials, or to buy bows and arrows from other cultures.

The Wood Elves, of course, cannot smoke anything of a vegetable nature. Bone pipes are common, however, and are filled with caterpillars or tree grubs.

Now, there may be good reasons to doubt this account (it's supposed to be an in-game source, after all), and later games seemed to have toned down the weirdness a bit. (As does ESO, except when it's a plot point.) But if anything, you could accuse ESO of taking this segment of lore too literally.

My head has no canon.Everything I do in the game is either to go with or change the world.
Even the modlist I build is 100% canon.

newtinmpls wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Bosmer males have been the smallest of the playable characters consistently since Morrowind .

I don't recall towering over all the dunmer as an altmer in Morrowind; the lack of overlap in racial heights is .. weird.

As for ritual cannibalism, that's fine but the whole "don't dare harvest a leaf" warping of the "green pact" is bizarre and illogical.

I think its awesome, actually I think both things you mentioned are awesome because I preferentially play Altmer and because the current interpretation of the Green Pact is exactly my bent of interesting sci-fi concept.

newtinmpls wrote: »

I presume that the "don't eat plants" has an underlying injunction that means "that are sentient"/"that are allies"

Actually, it might have started like this...

I see it more like a religion. You believe in the Green Pact and do NOT touch plant, or you don't and don't care. It's extremely vivid in Valenwood, but emmigrated bosmer tend to not respect it.

When you look deeper at lore, all bosmers do not repect the Green Pact. On the surface, sure they say they do, and only few clans actually openly claim they don't. They also respect it their way. Some refuse to eat any plant, and others will say that it's OK if it's an fruit fallen from a tree. Or if you don't specifically grow the plant to be eaten. And as I said, some clan do not respect the Green Pact, and some of them are even claiming they don't.

... and for every culture / religion, there are extremists. Like this ginger bosmer that wanted to cut a Khajiit's hands because he snapped a branch...

Kierro wrote: »

I can't remember the book, but I personally hate how reproduction works. In this book it says the offspring, of a successful mated pair, takes the appearance of the mother, but some small features from the father. I feel this is a copout so Bethesda didn't have to make a new model for mer/men offspring. Like the Greyprince in Oblivion, they didn't want to make a new model for him, so they used an Orc as his model to give the idea he was "monstrous". I want to believe this book doesn't exist, or is actually just a joke or uneducated scholar. I made two alts, an Altmer and an Orc, who I pretend were halfbreeds. The Altmer's father is an elf but mother's a nord. The Orc's father was a Nord but his mother was an Orc.

here's the book http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Notes_on_Racial_Phylogeny

apparently written by the Council of Healers, from the IC. so yeah it's written by in-universe people. based on the text they are clearly unsure of the reproduction stuff. it's something in the process of being studied

newtinmpls wrote: »

Oh, and the idea that bosmer are compulsive carnivores, yet are also the physically smallest of the mer.. I just laugh my *ss off.

I think the "Green Pact" has been so warped and misinterpreted by ESO that it's into the realm of .... severe cultural misunderstanding.

Thats intentional on the part of the bosmer. It is very specific circumstances to eat humans but is misunderstood by others. Its also intended in part as a means of preventing war. A very fascinating part of bosmer lore

Bascially "The Elder Scrolls" is a story knowing it's a story. All the bosmer Spinner thing was great for this!
But sometimes, players forget it and become twisted, "lorenazis". Especially when they want to believe Kirkbride's delirium that hard, instead of taking this as the kind of "fiction inside the fiction" it is.

I agree with OP about the Orsimer thing. Like you @Korah_Eaglecry , I prefer to see the universe outside the "mythos" perspective: mundane things happens, but stories about them sometimes get insane, and in a world where words/spells/memory are magic, all this produce insane lore (that is then called "godness" fo example).

That's why I prefer later lore "vision", from ESO and Legends, over what the fanbase praises. (This doesn't prevent me to love some old fantasy from the first games, like the Wood elves living in temperate forests or the High elves being an alien magical people with nowadays-redguard architecture)

Lore is actually what the characters are told, and what they tell - not what "actually happened" inside the universe.

There are hints about this in ESO, e.g. in the lore, Vivec has crushed the akaviri invasion thanks to his godhood, replacing air by water so the invaders drown, but allowing the faithful to breath underwater and being kept unharmed. In actual game facts (through the quests in EP) you discover the bones of the fallen dunmer who died that day. "In fact" it was a huge water spell, witnessed by faithful people.

I like how sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from godness in this universe, and how (ooc) players are driven to believe the lore stronger than the fictional characters do themselves.

Thus my headcanon is "The Old Ways" of the psijic Celarus - a reference to real world's Euhemerus. It appears to me as the wiser point of view inside the Story (not like other stuff from the psyjic, like the Monomyth - another reference there, Campbell's stuff) ... Indeed it's a headcanon too, but as a rational mind, I need this rational story to fit in.

You know, it's exactly how things work in real life (minus the magic part, if you're about zetetic).
When RL Roman Emperors died, they became gods. Like Talos. In Japanese lore, the emperor was a real-life living god, some decades ago. In RL lore, the greek gods physically took part in the war of Troy.
You may say "eeeh we know it can't be true, it's real world, not Tamriel" - well, so how would Tamriel be that different ? Many people forget that in nowadays real world, many people still strongly believe their myths, religions, litterally - India, muslim world, christian world, and so on ... From their non-scientific rationality, godhood and magic stuff are real already.

So let's come to some pieces of my headcanon to adress the OP!

* "Loveletter from the Fifth Era" in fact is a fiction written by some dunmer novelist (who delved too much into Vivec's teachings & skooma). Time travel is not possible, only the fools believe that a fake story of anticipation is a "proof from the future". KINMUNE *** is also an in-universe science-fiction (there is a redguard conspiracy-theorist NPC in game who refers to that haha).

* Dragon-Breaks are due to lost parts of History, auto-da-fé, censorship, re-writings of timelines, etc.
* ESO Interregnum events should fall into this category.

* The Soulless One are in fact crowds of people, "the Soulless Ones". Or, another way to explain it, millions of adventurers have inhertied to memories of the Vestige. Each one could have dreams or visions (that we call Main Quest) and each may or may not believe he/she is the Vestige. (I wrote this fanfic about it, which I would translate some day)

* Akatosh is a "fake god" (Syncretism). It's a re-writing of (altmer/ayleid) Auri-El plus draconic features (that comes from old dragon-cult patterns of the falmer-crusher northern humans, who may have been inspiration for freed slaves of Cyrodiil).
* Some corrupted aldmeri-dominion prelates have incorporated draconic features back to Auri-El by the time of ESO era!! (That shameful Akatosh shrine in Eldenroot simply renamed as Auri-El shrine...)

* Azura is not responsible for red eye color of the Dunmer. Only evolution / magical exposition to volcanic magic. "In fact" there's still non-redeyed dunmers here and there, plus, the Ashlanders have got this feature even without having supported the Tribunal.

* Senches and cats are not khajiit. But Khajiit are naturally nearer to them, rather than men and mer, so foreigners may think they are actual relatives. (You know, in real world, many people consider their dog as a member of the family!)
* Senche-raht and other furs do exist but they are small variations of the khajiit shapes and patterns.

* The Hist are not "intelligent" in a human meaning. They have not created the Argonians. In fact it was a co-evolution making the two species "symbiotic" (as in the Ecology meaning). The strange religion we witness is the result of a non-human culture trying to explain this symbiosis.

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

Bascially "The Elder Scrolls" is a story knowing it's a story. All the bosmer Spinner thing was great for this!
But sometimes, players forget it and become twisted, "lorenazis". Especially when they want to believe Kirkbride's delirium that hard, instead of taking this as the kind of "fiction inside the fiction" it is.

I agree with OP about the Orsimer thing. Like you @Korah_Eaglecry , I prefer to see the universe outside the "mythos" perspective: mundane things happens, but stories about them sometimes get insane, and in a world where words/spells/memory are magic, all this produce insane lore (that is then called "godness" fo example).

That's why I prefer later lore "vision", from ESO and Legends, over what the fanbase praises. (This doesn't prevent me to love some old fantasy from the first games, like the Wood elves living in temperate forests or the High elves being an alien magical people with nowadays-redguard architecture)

Lore is actually what the characters are told, and what they tell - not what "actually happened" inside the universe.

There are hints about this in ESO, e.g. in the lore, Vivec has crushed the akaviri invasion thanks to his godhood, replacing air by water so the invaders drown, but allowing the faithful to breath underwater and being kept unharmed. In actual game facts (through the quests in EP) you discover the bones of the fallen dunmer who died that day. "In fact" it was a huge water spell, witnessed by faithful people.

I like how sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from godness in this universe, and how (ooc) players are driven to believe the lore stronger than the fictional characters do themselves.

Thus my headcanon is "The Old Ways" of the psijic Celarus - a reference to real world's Euhemerus. It appears to me as the wiser point of view inside the Story (not like other stuff from the psyjic, like the Monomyth - another reference there, Campbell's stuff) ... Indeed it's a headcanon too, but as a rational mind, I need this rational story to fit in.

You know, it's exactly how things work in real life (minus the magic part, if you're about zetetic).
When RL Roman Emperors died, they became gods. Like Talos. In Japanese lore, the emperor was a real-life living god, some decades ago. In RL lore, the greek gods physically took part in the war of Troy.
You may say "eeeh we know it can't be true, it's real world, not Tamriel" - well, so how would Tamriel be that different ? Many people forget that in nowadays real world, many people still strongly believe their myths, religions, litterally - India, muslim world, christian world, and so on ... From their non-scientific rationality, godhood and magic stuff are real already.

So let's come to some pieces of my headcanon to adress the OP!

* "Loveletter from the Fifth Era" in fact is a fiction written by some dunmer novelist (who delved too much into Vivec's teachings & skooma). Time travel is not possible, only the fools believe that a fake story of anticipation is a "proof from the future". KINMUNE *** is also an in-universe science-fiction (there is a redguard conspiracy-theorist NPC in game who refers to that haha).

* Dragon-Breaks are due to lost parts of History, auto-da-fé, censorship, re-writings of timelines, etc.
* ESO Interregnum events should fall into this category.

* The Soulless One are in fact crowds of people, "the Soulless Ones". Or, another way to explain it, millions of adventurers have inhertied to memories of the Vestige. Each one could have dreams or visions (that we call Main Quest) and each may or may not believe he/she is the Vestige. (I wrote this fanfic about it, which I would translate some day)

* Akatosh is a "fake god" (Syncretism). It's a re-writing of (altmer/ayleid) Auri-El plus draconic features (that comes from old dragon-cult patterns of the falmer-crusher northern humans, who may have been inspiration for freed slaves of Cyrodiil).
* Some corrupted aldmeri-dominion prelates have incorporated draconic features back to Auri-El by the time of ESO era!! (That shameful Akatosh shrine in Eldenroot simply renamed as Auri-El shrine...)

* Azura is not responsible for red eye color of the Dunmer. Only evolution / magical exposition to volcanic magic. "In fact" there's still non-redeyed dunmers here and there, plus, the Ashlanders have got this feature even without having supported the Tribunal.

* Senches and cats are not khajiit. But Khajiit are naturally nearer to them, rather than men and mer, so foreigners may think they are actual relatives. (You know, in real world, many people consider their dog as a member of the family!)
* Senche-raht and other furs do exist but they are small variations of the khajiit shapes and patterns.

* The Hist are not "intelligent" in a human meaning. They have not created the Argonians. In fact it was a co-evolution making the two species "symbiotic" (as in the Ecology meaning). The strange religion we witness is the result of a non-human culture trying to explain this symbiosis.

If there is no such thing as a dragon break, then how come in ESO Cyrodiil isnt jungle? Its suppose to be jungle at this time until talos changes it.

And if Azura didnt curse the Dunmer, then theyre probably just really inbred. I mean how many people did Boethiah get to leave summerset?
And come to think about it, if we are comparing the tribunal living gods to the history of living gods on earth, then vivec couldve added to the inbreeding. The "living god" pharoe Ramses had over 100 kids. Ghengis khan had so many kids that theres 16 million men today that have his Y gene. And thats not including daughters that cannot be traced by a Y.

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

If there is no such thing as a dragon break, then how come in ESO Cyrodiil isnt jungle? Its suppose to be jungle at this time until talos changes it.

And if Azura didnt curse the Dunmer, then theyre probably just really inbred. I mean how many people did Boethiah get to leave summerset?
And come to think about it, if we are comparing the tribunal living gods to the history of living gods on earth, then vivec couldve added to the inbreeding. The "living god" pharoe Ramses had over 100 kids. Ghengis khan had so many kids that theres 16 million men today that have his Y gene. And thats not including daughters that cannot be traced by a Y.

* Indeed, the in-universe retcon (it's how I'll call a Dragon Break hehe) is the most effective way to explain the cyrodiil jungle stuff.
As we know Talos is a false god - sorry I mean a constructed god - it suits well with adding this kind of miracle to His Holy story in the process

If not, the other theory (I don't remember which one was Phrastus' or Lady Cinnabar's) can work too. Vanishing merethic era could be accompagnied by climate change (wether it's magically-induced or not, both seems credible)

* You've got the point about Dunmer "evolution" -Whether genetics is even a thing in Elder Scrolls universe or not, its processes can still work: a kind of "evolutive bottle-neck"

Varana wrote: »

And while Bethesda/ZOS sometimes forget about it

I hadn't the feeling that they forget about this, what example are you thinking about ?
The main fantasy part is still observable in game: the magic is effective ! (wether it's due to local cosmic laws, metaphysics about narration, or mere "sufficiently advanced technology" from the Ehlonfey...)

I like your Schrödinger's myth haha, playing the game is some sort of this experience

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Meanwhile the absolute vast majority of the world, men and mer are non-magic users and so being the majority the world is much more reflective of this.

This isnt to say there arent exceptions to this rule. The Mages Guild, the Summerset Isles, portions of Morrowind under Telvanni control and generally anywhere where mages and other magical users might gather. This rule would not apply and magic users might be much more representative.

This is credible, since the Mages Guild is stated to be the first organisation to spread magic (for the wealthier) ... and even Auridon seems blatantly mundane

It seems that magic reflects itself in the few strongest "wills", like lonewolf sorcerers, cult leaders (including prelates of the Divine/Aedra/Tribunal etc.), player-characters ofc, and spectres, just like The Old Ways of the psijic explains it