Vivec's Divine Energy (Morrowind Spoilers)

MLGProPlayer · September 2017

In Morrowind, Vivec has his divine energy stolen by Barbas and the player is tasked with retrieving it.

My question is, would the player have been able to just use this energy on themselves to become a god? The story didn't give a compelling reason for why I needed to return it to Vivec. He's just some jerk who became a god by stealing the power from an artefact (he doesn't have any right to that power). Is there anything that would have stopped the player from stealing that energy from Vivec?

I know story-wise that can't happen since Vivec needs to be there in TES III, but just hypothetically speaking.

And another thought related to Vivec: why did we need Vivec to stop the meteor from falling on Vvardenfell? Couldn't Almalexia or Sotha Sil have subbed in to hold it up/destroy it while Vivec is weakened? It seemed like a whole lot of drama for something that could have easily been resolved.

dpencil1 · September 2017

Yeah, I don't understand why the eagles didn't just drop the One Ring into Mount Doom either.

starkerealm · September 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

My question is, would the player have been able to just use this energy on themselves to become a god?

Conceptually? Sure. Would they have had the technical aptitude to do so? Especially with Clavicus Vile right there? Probably not, and it would have been dooming Vvardenfell to an early red year.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

The story didn't give a compelling reason for why I needed to return it to Vivec. He's just some jerk who became a god by stealing the power from an artefact (he doesn't have any right to that power). Is there anything that would have stopped the player from stealing that energy from Vivec?

Not knowing how to operate the equipment they're using comes in high on the list. Not wanting to suffer the ire of Azura follows closely behind that.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

And another thought related to Vivec: why did we need Vivec to stop the meteor from falling on Vvardenfell?

Yes. Well, no. If Vivec wasn't quite so self-involved, he could have gotten rid of it, instead of just freezing it in place, but the dude is a showoff.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Couldn't Almalexia or Sotha Sil have subbed in to hold it up/destroy it while Vivec is weakened?

Probably. The issue is, "would they have?" Sotha Sil probably doesn't care enough to intervene. Just on the general idea that he's so aloof and disconnected from normal people. Almalexia wouldn't, and would probably craft some parable about how, "really, it's all your fault for not seeing that rock coming."

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

It seemed like a whole lot of drama for something that could have easily been resolved.

It is. The problem is, all three of the people who could have stopped it didn't, because they're all egocentric idiots. Canonically, egocentric idiots. They went up there, and decided to lick the severed heart of a god, because it sounded like good times. They're lucky that all Azura did was blast their race into a new skin tone. A fact that sails right over their little heads.

Korah_Eaglecry · September 2017

Isnt this the reality of most issues we face in game and in real life? Almost always caused by someone or a group of people unnecessarily breaking, harming or neglecting something? And it almost always becomes entirely overly complicated to fix? Usually with a lot more blood and sweat and tears than ever necessary?

We have 3 "Living Gods" that are so far up their own glowing behinds to actually care that people could and would die and so the problem spins out of control til someone comes along with some solutions. Solutions that are at the edge of a blade or the tip of a staff.

VaranisArano · September 2017

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Solutions that are at the edge of a blade or the tip of a staff.

Solutions at the tip of a spear, please.

My nerevarine was a spear user. Gosh, I miss having spears as a weapon choice.

Two reasons the player couldn't steal the divine power from Vivec.

1. Immediate threat of catastrophe (namely, a meteor bearing down on Vivec City) that could only be averted by returning Vivec's divine power. Realistically, the Vestige wasn't going to figure out what they were doing in time to stop Baar Dau. In addition, the quest dialogue also hints that Red Mountain is having a sympathetic reaction to Vivec's distress and is on the way to having an eruption.

2. It wouldn't have worked anyway. Vivec's power and that of the rest of the Tribunal isn't a one and done deal. They have to refuel on power from the Heart of Lorkhan every so often using Kagrenac's Tools. The Vestige doesn't know this, nor does the Vestige have access to the tools or the ritual that is used to gain the powers. Without access to the Heart and the tools, the Vestige would become weakened the more they used their divine powers similar to the fate of the Tribunal leading up the rise of the Nerevarine in TES III after Dagoth Ur claimed the Heart chamber.

Tyrobag · September 2017

starkerealm wrote: »

It is. The problem is, all three of the people who could have stopped it didn't, because they're all egocentric idiots. Canonically, egocentric idiots. They went up there, and decided to lick the severed heart of a god, because it sounded like good times. They're lucky that all Azura did was blast their race into a new skin tone. A fact that sails right over their little heads.

Woah woah woah, I agree that Vivec and Almalexia are self centered fools who constantly deceive their people, But from all we know Sotha Sil is a good guy. His intention is always to improve the world, at first by leading his people, and later by literally trying to improve the world (by making a better one).

Unlike Almalexia, if asked Sotha SIl probably would have helped with Baar Dau, but asking him is the issue since hes locked away in The Clockwork City.

We know that Almalexia and Vivec are ill-intentioned Sociopaths. But from everything we know Sotha Sil is still good, just a little introverted.

FakeFox · September 2017

As far as I understand it the Tribunal didn't just steal their powers and keep them like a some artefact. The divine energy became a essential part of them. Sure the player could theoretically steal it, but I don't think you could become a god as first of all they did get their power directly from the heart of Lorkhan and secondly there power and knowledge even before was immense. It is also possible that Azuras curse played a role in creating their power. Apart from that stealing his power would probably make you some enemies you wouldn't want.

I haven't seen anything too specific on Almalexias or Sothasils powers but they could very well be capable of helping Vivec. They also aren't evil or anything. I guess it's just that having divine power drives the normal Chimer/Dunmer somewhat crazy and he didn't want to appear weak or something.

Eporem · September 2017

When I was reading of Sotha Sil I came across this:

Sotha Sil:

Thieves? An interesting concept. Did we steal the essence of the Divine, or was it given to us freely, that we might lead our people into a new age?

Few called us thieves when by words and by rite the Princes of Oblivion were bound to a truce. Fewer still when Mehrunes Dagon broke that truce and himself was broken on the soil of Mournhold.

The events of Red Mountain happened so long ago. What has Lord Vivec told you about that day? Did he wrap it in riddles, give you an array of possible pasts all leading to the same inevitable future? That is his way.

Do not curse him for this, as this is what he is. A puzzle. The opposition to his own viewpoint.

Almalexia would tell the story best, I think. She of us all was the closest to Nerevar. Lover. Counsel. General. And she of us all wears the mantle of a god most proudly. She has walked among the people and learned their frailties. Learned them well.

Men of god? Gods of men? Which should you fear most?

You wonder where the Dwemer have gone? Perhaps better to wonder why one remains. Even gods dislike the absolute, for it stinks of something larger than themselves.

Still I watch.

from here: https://www.imperial-library.info/content/sotha-sils-last-words

which just made me wonder would this power have been given to them freely.

FoolishHuman · September 2017

Our characters don't know that the tribunal stole the power from the heart or that they betrayed nerevar. We just have to believe that they are genuine deities and that the natural order is that the divine energy is with them.

Tyrobag · September 2017

Eporem wrote: »

When I was reading of Sotha Sil I came across this:

Sotha Sil:

Thieves? An interesting concept. Did we steal the essence of the Divine, or was it given to us freely, that we might lead our people into a new age?

Few called us thieves when by words and by rite the Princes of Oblivion were bound to a truce. Fewer still when Mehrunes Dagon broke that truce and himself was broken on the soil of Mournhold.

The events of Red Mountain happened so long ago. What has Lord Vivec told you about that day? Did he wrap it in riddles, give you an array of possible pasts all leading to the same inevitable future? That is his way.

Do not curse him for this, as this is what he is. A puzzle. The opposition to his own viewpoint.

Almalexia would tell the story best, I think. She of us all was the closest to Nerevar. Lover. Counsel. General. And she of us all wears the mantle of a god most proudly. She has walked among the people and learned their frailties. Learned them well.

Men of god? Gods of men? Which should you fear most?

You wonder where the Dwemer have gone? Perhaps better to wonder why one remains. Even gods dislike the absolute, for it stinks of something larger than themselves.

Still I watch.

from here: https://www.imperial-library.info/content/sotha-sils-last-words

which just made me wonder would this power have been given to them freely.

Please remember that that letter is not canonical, it is not something that ever appeared in a game, rather it was posted on a forum just before the release of the Tribunal DLC. There doesn't appear to be anything harmful in it, as its just speaking philosophically and parroting a few established lore points, but mind the fact that it does not reflect Sotha Sil's viewpoint.

starkerealm · September 2017

Tyrobag wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

It is. The problem is, all three of the people who could have stopped it didn't, because they're all egocentric idiots. Canonically, egocentric idiots. They went up there, and decided to lick the severed heart of a god, because it sounded like good times. They're lucky that all Azura did was blast their race into a new skin tone. A fact that sails right over their little heads.

Woah woah woah, I agree that Vivec and Almalexia are self centered fools who constantly deceive their people, But from all we know Sotha Sil is a good guy. His intention is always to improve the world, at first by leading his people, and later by literally trying to improve the world (by making a better one).

Unlike Almalexia, if asked Sotha SIl probably would have helped with Baar Dau, but asking him is the issue since hes locked away in The Clockwork City.

We know that Almalexia and Vivec are ill-intentioned Sociopaths. But from everything we know Sotha Sil is still good, just a little introverted.

Yeah, we actually do have a pretty solid picture of Sotha Sil already, and while CC might change that somewhat, the basic character has been detailed sufficiently to make an assessment.

Sotha Sil has taken the power he obtained and basically wandered off to his room to fiddle with his toys. He has technology which would improve the lives of people across Tamriel. More than the other two, his efforts have resulted in options that could genuinely help people. But, he doesn't care.

Much like Almalexia, he says he cares. But, he can't be bothered to show up to inspire or actually help his people. He may have good intentions, but he's not actually doing anything. About the only thing we have to show for it is the Cold Harbour Compact, which, judging by the Planemeld, didn't really seem to do much.

Vivec or Almalexia could build a better civilization, but Sotha Sil has the technology to build a utopia. Instead he's sitting there going, "I know, mechanical raptors!"

starkerealm · September 2017

FoolishHuman wrote: »

Our characters don't know that the tribunal stole the power from the heart or that they betrayed nerevar. We just have to believe that they are genuine deities and that the natural order is that the divine energy is with them.

Yeah, this has always been about player knowledge, not information characters have access to. Our characters don't know there will be a real Nerevarine in 800 years. As players, however, we do know that, and we'll be talking to Chodala's ghost in that cave in the distant future year of 2003.