Orc Chiefs

Glarin · July 2017

As we know, male Orc chiefs have many wives. Hearth wife, Forge Wife, Hunts Wife, etc. Does this mean when a female Orc becomes chief does she get a Hearth Husband, Forge Husband, Hunts Husband? Or does she have multiple wives as well?

Xvorg · July 2017

Glarin wrote: »

As we know, male Orc chiefs have many wives. Hearth wife, Forge Wife, Hunts Wife, etc. Does this mean when a female Orc becomes chief does she get a Hearth Husband, Forge Husband, Hunts Husband? Or does she have multiple wives as well?

Never heard about a female chief except in Orsinum DLC, when you have the chance of change the tradition in the "A question of succession".

KeiruNicrom · July 2017

A female chief is a rare case due to the rule most strongholds have where only the chief may mate. A male chief can have many children in a year thanks to having multiple wives. A female chief could have one (not counting the chance for twins, triplets etc) every 9 months, even with multiple husbands. With how brutish the Orc lifestyle is in most cases a clan likely loses a lot of members often. Being able to replenish those numbers is imperative for survival of the clan

The quest in Wrothgar that allows you to make a female chief would be acceptable due to how Orsinium law made it so any Orc may mate with whoever they want.

Also the chief fights pretty often both against clan members that want to be the next chief and outside forces. A pregnant chief would be in a huge disadvantage in those situations

To answer your question though yes, they would have Hearth husbands, Forge husbands, etc. And I see no reason why they cant have wives too. Or male chief have husbands. TES universe is very open about having homosexual and bisexual characters

Korah_Eaglecry · July 2017

Glarin wrote: »

As we know, male Orc chiefs have many wives. Hearth wife, Forge Wife, Hunts Wife, etc. Does this mean when a female Orc becomes chief does she get a Hearth Husband, Forge Husband, Hunts Husband? Or does she have multiple wives as well?

Not really. As far as I can tell the Orsinium DLC was probably one of the first times we see such a thing occur. Heres an excerpt from the UESP on Orc Society.

Traditional Orcish society is centered around stronghold settlements, each one striving for complete independence in all maters. Orc society is based on polygamy - a stronghold's tribe is controlled by a chieftain, who is the literal alpha male: no other males are permitted to take wives or father children. The chieftain is replaced by whichever one of his sons grows srong enough to challenge and kill him. The strength of a tribe (and the favor granted to it by Malacath) depends heavily on the personal strength of the chieftain.

And heres another section of the same UESP page on womens roles in Orc society.

Orc women are expected to contribute to the strength of the stronghold just as men, as warriors, hunters, herbalists. Traditionally, the Oricsh art of smithing is done by the women, and a chieftain's second wife is called the forgewife for this reason. A wise woman handles a tribe's spiritual matters and healing needs. However, Orish society is still very patriarchal. All stronghold women are either the wives or daughters of chieftains, with the exception of wise women, who are the mothers of chieftains. Daughters of the chieftain are usually traded to other strongholds to marry other chieftains.

notimetocare · July 2017

While not lore supported as it is very limited, a female could be a cheiftian but would likely have a husband that would retain many wives. While her say is law, he would still be the strongest male. The key logic to this would be a tribe would die out due to too few children. In orc culture, the clan may also be seen as weak for the same lack of offspring. They could be ignored by other tribes or eliminated

WhiteCoatSyndrome · July 2017

There was an Orc lady in...IIRC Bangkorai...who had left her tribe because she didn't like the idea of being the wife of someone in charge and wanted to be someone in charge herself. She talked about making the Redguard fellow who also appeared in that quest a 'hearth husband' at the end although I don't know if anything came of that; he sounded a little horrified at the idea.

More generally, they've frequently stated that there are no set in stone rules that are universal across all Orc clans, and that the clans frequently have differing traditions.

Korah_Eaglecry · July 2017

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

There was an Orc lady in...IIRC Bangkorai...who had left her tribe because she didn't like the idea of being the wife of someone in charge and wanted to be someone in charge herself. She talked about making the Redguard fellow who also appeared in that quest a 'hearth husband' at the end although I don't know if anything came of that; he sounded a little horrified at the idea.

More generally, they've frequently stated that there are no set in stone rules that are universal across all Orc clans, and that the clans frequently have differing traditions.

Differing traditions yes but I would say the vast majority of our experiences with Orc clans have been patriarchal regardless of whomever might try to imply the opposite. If we saw more female chieftains than there might be a precedence for the argument that it occurs more often or that such a rule is not set in stone. Personally I think that whole storyline in Orsinium was a little too SJW in tone. We dont need to change the orcs beliefs or traditions for us to get the message across that what they believe and do is not okay.

Ilsabet · July 2017

What I'm wondering is how they deal with the whole incest issue if a chief's options for wives within the clan consist only of his sisters and half-sisters all fathered by the previous chief. There's probably a fair amount of intermarrying between allied clans, but that would tend to homogenize the clan pool after a few generations. Or maybe they just don't care about incest. I'm a little surprised it didn't come up anywhere in the Orsinium DLC.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · July 2017

Ilsabet wrote: »

What I'm wondering is how they deal with the whole incest issue if a chief's options for wives within the clan consist only of his sisters and half-sisters all fathered by the previous chief. There's probably a fair amount of intermarrying between allied clans, but that would tend to homogenize the clan pool after a few generations. Or maybe they just don't care about incest. I'm a little surprised it didn't come up anywhere in the Orsinium DLC.

They trade the daughters out to other clans, which probably helps a little. A strong rival can challenge and subsequently replace the chief, which probably helps more. And there are decent odds the chief will get his brains smashed out by a giant or something, which probably helps a little more.

IIRC the quest for Shatul brought up the phrase 'Valenwood marriage' so there's probably some stigma attached too.

notimetocare · July 2017

Ilsabet wrote: »

What I'm wondering is how they deal with the whole incest issue if a chief's options for wives within the clan consist only of his sisters and half-sisters all fathered by the previous chief. There's probably a fair amount of intermarrying between allied clans, but that would tend to homogenize the clan pool after a few generations. Or maybe they just don't care about incest. I'm a little surprised it didn't come up anywhere in the Orsinium DLC.

Something often overlooked is game population is not lore population. Whiles Orc are likely the smallest population in lore, there are still more like hundreds of thousands. There are some posts around on the realistic populations of the races. Inbreeding is of only strong negatives in the closest 2-5 generations

ServerusEcru · July 2017

Glarin wrote: »

As we know, male Orc chiefs have many wives. Hearth wife, Forge Wife, Hunts Wife, etc. Does this mean when a female Orc becomes chief does she get a Hearth Husband, Forge Husband, Hunts Husband? Or does she have multiple wives as well?

It would be a rare case. If she was ambitious enough or strong enough she could try to take multiple husbands, thus if one is to kill her, he would become Clan Chief. But it would be against the code of Malacath to take any outsider race in as a husband, wife etc. Even Orc's that were not raised in Wrothgar are considered city Orc's, soft and have to prove their worth to Orsinium Society.

Reference:
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Orc

Dustfinger81 · July 2017

The fact that a female can be chief means there will be ways to achieve similar results in a clan, rare though they may be. So, a female chief may take her own wives and her husband or husbands (picked by physical prowess) may be the ones to sire kids with them.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · August 2017

I've been playing through "Payment in Kind" again and found something relevant - Chief Ulukhaz is female.

crashen17b14_ESO · August 2017

I have always wondered about the clan wise woman. Its usually the mother of the chief, but what would make her qualified? The wise woman seemingly is the clan shaman/alchemist/healer. Does that mean a forgewife would become wise woman if her son became chief? What would she know about that role? Or does the outgoing wise woman teach the incoming one? That might be a little awkward "your son killed my son but thats cool."

Considering orc culture, i suppose there wouldnt be any bad blood but still it might be a little difficult, considering orcs DO care about each other and have loved ones. Yes your son was a mighty chief and yes he died with honor and has joined malacath, but he is still your son and you probably miss him.

Furthermore, what happens to the male heirs who DONT become chief? In some cases they go off to join the imperial legion or form their own strongholds, or they stay with the current stronghold. But that seems like kind of a *** deal if say, you arent really interested in being chief. Maybe your elder brother really seems better suited to being the chief, and you are just a really good hunter, or maybe you are more intellectually inclined. Can you take the place of the wise woman and be the shaman/healer while your brother leads? Still kind of sucks that you cant have your own family.

Unless a wife is only a wife if she is an orc. Supose you are a male who isnt the chief of a stronghold. Can you take a female nord or redguard or whatever as your technically-not-wife lover?

notimetocare · August 2017

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

I have always wondered about the clan wise woman. Its usually the mother of the chief, but what would make her qualified? The wise woman seemingly is the clan shaman/alchemist/healer. Does that mean a forgewife would become wise woman if her son became chief? What would she know about that role? Or does the outgoing wise woman teach the incoming one? That might be a little awkward "your son killed my son but thats cool."

Considering orc culture, i suppose there wouldnt be any bad blood but still it might be a little difficult, considering orcs DO care about each other and have loved ones. Yes your son was a mighty chief and yes he died with honor and has joined malacath, but he is still your son and you probably miss him.

Furthermore, what happens to the male heirs who DONT become chief? In some cases they go off to join the imperial legion or form their own strongholds, or they stay with the current stronghold. But that seems like kind of a *** deal if say, you arent really interested in being chief. Maybe your elder brother really seems better suited to being the chief, and you are just a really good hunter, or maybe you are more intellectually inclined. Can you take the place of the wise woman and be the shaman/healer while your brother leads? Still kind of sucks that you cant have your own family.

Unless a wife is only a wife if she is an orc. Supose you are a male who isnt the chief of a stronghold. Can you take a female nord or redguard or whatever as your technically-not-wife lover?

In a stronghold, no. Orc culture is very rigid and very foreign to most modern people. Even if you could, it would Dishonor your clan.

Orcs are accustomed to short, brutal lives.

zaria · August 2017

notimetocare wrote: »

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

I have always wondered about the clan wise woman. Its usually the mother of the chief, but what would make her qualified? The wise woman seemingly is the clan shaman/alchemist/healer. Does that mean a forgewife would become wise woman if her son became chief? What would she know about that role? Or does the outgoing wise woman teach the incoming one? That might be a little awkward "your son killed my son but thats cool."

Considering orc culture, i suppose there wouldnt be any bad blood but still it might be a little difficult, considering orcs DO care about each other and have loved ones. Yes your son was a mighty chief and yes he died with honor and has joined malacath, but he is still your son and you probably miss him.

Furthermore, what happens to the male heirs who DONT become chief? In some cases they go off to join the imperial legion or form their own strongholds, or they stay with the current stronghold. But that seems like kind of a *** deal if say, you arent really interested in being chief. Maybe your elder brother really seems better suited to being the chief, and you are just a really good hunter, or maybe you are more intellectually inclined. Can you take the place of the wise woman and be the shaman/healer while your brother leads? Still kind of sucks that you cant have your own family.

Unless a wife is only a wife if she is an orc. Supose you are a male who isnt the chief of a stronghold. Can you take a female nord or redguard or whatever as your technically-not-wife lover?

In a stronghold, no. Orc culture is very rigid and very foreign to most modern people. Even if you could, it would Dishonor your clan.

Orcs are accustomed to short, brutal lives.

Add that the ones who don't like it has other options, some of the clans don't like new Orsinium as it make it easier to select another option. Multiple quests about it.
On the other hand orc clans work, plenty of orc strongholds in gratewood and greenshade to who is pretty fun.
Probably the largest out of faction race so an AD orc is very lore friendly,

elias.stormneb18_ESO · August 2017

zaria wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

I have always wondered about the clan wise woman. Its usually the mother of the chief, but what would make her qualified? The wise woman seemingly is the clan shaman/alchemist/healer. Does that mean a forgewife would become wise woman if her son became chief? What would she know about that role? Or does the outgoing wise woman teach the incoming one? That might be a little awkward "your son killed my son but thats cool."

Considering orc culture, i suppose there wouldnt be any bad blood but still it might be a little difficult, considering orcs DO care about each other and have loved ones. Yes your son was a mighty chief and yes he died with honor and has joined malacath, but he is still your son and you probably miss him.

Furthermore, what happens to the male heirs who DONT become chief? In some cases they go off to join the imperial legion or form their own strongholds, or they stay with the current stronghold. But that seems like kind of a *** deal if say, you arent really interested in being chief. Maybe your elder brother really seems better suited to being the chief, and you are just a really good hunter, or maybe you are more intellectually inclined. Can you take the place of the wise woman and be the shaman/healer while your brother leads? Still kind of sucks that you cant have your own family.

Unless a wife is only a wife if she is an orc. Supose you are a male who isnt the chief of a stronghold. Can you take a female nord or redguard or whatever as your technically-not-wife lover?

In a stronghold, no. Orc culture is very rigid and very foreign to most modern people. Even if you could, it would Dishonor your clan.

Orcs are accustomed to short, brutal lives.

Add that the ones who don't like it has other options, some of the clans don't like new Orsinium as it make it easier to select another option. Multiple quests about it.
On the other hand orc clans work, plenty of orc strongholds in gratewood and greenshade to who is pretty fun.
Probably the largest out of faction race so an AD orc is very lore friendly,

The Wood Orcs generally really aren't friends of the Dominion, though.