Where's The Balanced PvP?

dirklemonjellob14_ESO · March 2017

Left 2 years ago because 'i win' specs ruled the roost and could hold off groups of players.

Pvp'd today for the first time since Ive been back and.......

2 years go by and certain classes / specs STILL have the ability to hold off groups of players in an open field? I saw a templar an dk hold off, and still are Im sure, 3+ groups of players at bay an anyone getting close enough was getting shellacked bigtime. I tried on my magblade and couldnt get close enough to hit them cept with lotus and all that did was me getting evaporated. Past 3 hours it was just this. Sure I could have moved on an found a better spot to pvp but I dont have hours to roam around cyrodiil and all I think i will find are these uber healing meta tanks that are unkillable anyways so why bother.

I dont mind the 3 million players out there I cant kill due to the heavy armor/health regen meta that seems to be all the rage. Fine. Let me kill a lowbie caster now an then an Im happy.

But seriousy 1 player able to wipe a group or hold off multiple groups in open field pvp is just bogus and a joke. Do i have to re-equip my DK now an just play that? I got a templar lvl 25.

If this is what this games pvp is is uber tanks wiping everyone and groups of nb's ganking everyone near a pve spot cause theyre afraid of the 80% probability that they will attack someone they cannot kill no matter how much help they have. I dont mind only being able to kill a small % of players now in Cyrodiil but quite honestly I didnt see even a small % of squishies in my first day. Everyone was a healing templar/dk or sorc. But these superman damage tank specs are gonna ruin pvp for me if this is all it is.

Thelon · March 2017

Takuto · March 2017

Anyone have any idea what game the OP is playing?

THEDKEXPERIENCE · March 2017

Dude has a level 25 character. People in PVP are often level 600. Some builds are strong, some aren't.

You left a game for 2 years and expected what exactly?

Animus-ESO · March 2017

Lol it cracks me up hearing people come in here screaming this games balance is super bad. Honestly balance right now is the best it has ever been. 1v1 MDK is a little overwhelming but with a few very minor nerfs id say things are fine.

You can balance this game with 3 very slight changes.
1:) make shuffle require 5 medium armor to use.
2:) put a 2 second immobilize immunity when you break one or it wears off.
3:) Give cloth armor more spell penetration.

Boom, Games pretty balanced.

MickeyBN · March 2017

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Lol it cracks me up hearing people come in here screaming this games balance is super bad. Honestly balance right now is the best it has ever been. 1v1 MDK is a little overwhelming but with a few very minor nerfs id say things are fine.

You can balance this game with 3 very slight changes.
1:) make shuffle require 5 medium armor to use.
2:) put a 2 second immobilize immunity when you break one or it wears off.
3:) Give cloth armor more spell penetration.
4:) Nerf the damage full Heavy armour wearers get to keep.

Boom, Games pretty balanced.

Added an extra one for you.

Gilvoth · March 2017

Where's The Balanced PvP?

the NO champion point campaigns are very close to Balanced PvP.
try it out. "Azuras Star Campaign"
as soon as i played in that campaign i saw balance and i don't plan to leave it.

but i strongly suggest you are atleast lvl 50 before go into there.

Nser · March 2017

dirklemonjellob14_ESO wrote: »

Left 2 years ago because 'i win' specs ruled the roost and could hold off groups of players.

Pvp'd today for the first time since Ive been back and.......

2 years go by and certain classes / specs STILL have the ability to hold off groups of players in an open field? I saw a templar an dk hold off, and still are Im sure, 3+ groups of players at bay an anyone getting close enough was getting shellacked bigtime. I tried on my magblade and couldnt get close enough to hit them cept with lotus and all that did was me getting evaporated. Past 3 hours it was just this. Sure I could have moved on an found a better spot to pvp but I dont have hours to roam around cyrodiil and all I think i will find are these uber healing meta tanks that are unkillable anyways so why bother.

I dont mind the 3 million players out there I cant kill due to the heavy armor/health regen meta that seems to be all the rage. Fine. Let me kill a lowbie caster now an then an Im happy.

But seriousy 1 player able to wipe a group or hold off multiple groups in open field pvp is just bogus and a joke. Do i have to re-equip my DK now an just play that? I got a templar lvl 25.

If this is what this games pvp is is uber tanks wiping everyone and groups of nb's ganking everyone near a pve spot cause theyre afraid of the 80% probability that they will attack someone they cannot kill no matter how much help they have. I dont mind only being able to kill a small % of players now in Cyrodiil but quite honestly I didnt see even a small % of squishies in my first day. Everyone was a healing templar/dk or sorc. But these superman damage tank specs are gonna ruin pvp for me if this is all it is.

This is not overwatch

Cadbury · March 2017

Nser wrote: »

dirklemonjellob14_ESO wrote: »

Left 2 years ago because 'i win' specs ruled the roost and could hold off groups of players.

Pvp'd today for the first time since Ive been back and.......

2 years go by and certain classes / specs STILL have the ability to hold off groups of players in an open field? I saw a templar an dk hold off, and still are Im sure, 3+ groups of players at bay an anyone getting close enough was getting shellacked bigtime. I tried on my magblade and couldnt get close enough to hit them cept with lotus and all that did was me getting evaporated. Past 3 hours it was just this. Sure I could have moved on an found a better spot to pvp but I dont have hours to roam around cyrodiil and all I think i will find are these uber healing meta tanks that are unkillable anyways so why bother.

I dont mind the 3 million players out there I cant kill due to the heavy armor/health regen meta that seems to be all the rage. Fine. Let me kill a lowbie caster now an then an Im happy.

But seriousy 1 player able to wipe a group or hold off multiple groups in open field pvp is just bogus and a joke. Do i have to re-equip my DK now an just play that? I got a templar lvl 25.

If this is what this games pvp is is uber tanks wiping everyone and groups of nb's ganking everyone near a pve spot cause theyre afraid of the 80% probability that they will attack someone they cannot kill no matter how much help they have. I dont mind only being able to kill a small % of players now in Cyrodiil but quite honestly I didnt see even a small % of squishies in my first day. Everyone was a healing templar/dk or sorc. But these superman damage tank specs are gonna ruin pvp for me if this is all it is.

This is not overwatch

Nerf McCree and Roadhog.

stephbay123 · March 2017

As a nightblade I know it will be tough against a dk or templar tank, or almost impossible, i expect that. What I don't expect is not even being able to make a dent in any way while also being slaughtered, even if others come along to join in all that happens is the tanks health continually goes back to full and takes ages to die, while still being able to cause massive damage. If players are going to have super shields which means they take little damage, or abilities that means if you hit them you are the one that ends up being stunned then all classes should have this. It was fine when players like this could not cause much damage and you could only beat them by managing resources and skill but that is not the case now. That is not balance.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · March 2017

Fact: Every player has a weakness, you just have to find it.

Example: My Magplar has 47k Magicka and 27k health. I can cast breath of life, harness Magicka and mist form over and over again to stay alive in large fights. It is very common for me to bob in and out of groups of 20+ and survive. Furthermore as one of the few non impen wearers I can muster enough DPS to put the killing blow on almost anyone, even tank emperors.

However ... I'm basically a support character. Unless I have an ultimate ready, if you catch me 1 on 1 in the wild, I'm in a ton of trouble against basically anyone with even half the CP I do. Doing more DPS than 99% of the map when someone is in execution range is great until you realize that you can't get anyone to execution range.

Those unkillable tanks can be killed but only be people fully loaded with an end game DPS build. If you're a low ranked player you may as well walk away.

This is a game where people have spent years building living gods. Trying to take one out after a 2 year break is a fools errand.

Yasha · March 2017

PvP in this game has always seemed like that to me. The game has an amazing feel, but its designed around the concept of gear (and CP if not in AZ) being of primary importance, rather than skill. I don't think its even meant to be balanced. However, it certainly has come leaps and bounds since the days of the DK vamp emps soloing entire zergs, and the lag is way better than it used to be.

The most "balanced" pvp in ESO will be found in Azura's Star campaign and in BWB- those campaigns are still vastly unbalanced compared to other games I have played, but its much rarer to see a couple of folks holding off 10-plus players and killing them all.

vamp_emily · March 2017

I think the balance is in the numbers. If you are 1v1 and get your tush hurt then, call a friend and make it 2v1. If you and your friend get your tush hurt then call another friend and make it 3v1.

RinaldoGandolphi · March 2017

The game is better off in some ways then it was two years ago, and worse off in others. Sadly, no game is perfect.

You can't really balance a game with no limits though. Once they removed caps in 1.6, it literally became the Wild Wild West.

They need to bring back hard and soft caps, BUT they need to be reasonable caps. It should not be easy to hit the hard caps, but the soft caps should encourage people to spread stats out in other areas.

When there is no limit on damage, folks are going to focus on it(Hence damage being off the charts)
When there is no limit on healing, and its tied to damage, folks will focus on it(the 10% wave hand once back to full Templars)
When there is no limits on stat pools your going to have the insane tanky guys with 70k or more health that block forever

They just need to come up with reasonable hard and soft caps. Hard caps that are not easy to reach, but soft cap diminishing returns that encourage folks to focus on other areas of their toons. The game would be much better overall if they done this with some skill tweaks, but im not holding my breath it ever happens.

All in All, the game is good in some ways and bad in others compared to 2 years ago. It is what it is. The game is by no means competitive and i wouldn't worry about dying in game either.

FearlessOne_2014 · March 2017

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Where's The Balanced PvP?

the NO champion point campaigns are very close to Balanced PvP.
try it out. "Azuras Star Campaign"
as soon as i played in that campaign i saw balance and i don't plan to leave it.

but i strongly suggest you are atleast lvl 50 before go into there.

I lefted the No CP joint in a hurry. Here are my reasons why.

A.) Stamina builds are godly easy and unbalanced in there. If you don't want to nut hug a zerg as a magicka based players. Because of having little to no options for the magicka player to counter act the unbalanced resource pool that is stamina. Have to gimp damage to be able to survive in No CP as a mage. On the other hand stamina can just freely have the best of all worlds in No CP campaign.

B.) Proc Set Builds hits soo much harder. This is because they just requires you to auto or spam one attack mainly ambush to set off 15k to 20k worth of damage. Making their damage even higher, then actual non ultimate skill based damage, then that in the CP campaigns.

All and all, I avoid the non CP campaign. This is because I enjoy more of a spell-caster playstyle. That of one being more independent from the zerglings.

So no Non CP just has a different set of imbalance issues. Mostly highly favoring stamina based playstyles in 1v1 to small group vs small group play. Again this is because of the fact Stamina players, get Mobility, Survivalbility , Sustain, and High damage all from the same resource pool. And without CP's to help Mages somewhat overcome the Mobility/CC challenge aspect. After 2 to 3 CCs the mage is dead by default, while the stamina player can just laugh at CCs.

So until ZOS allow mages to be able to basically ignore CCs, like Stamina based players can. Of ZOS make stamina players have to deal with the same problems with CC that magicka based players face. I'll just stick to the CP campaigns. However I have to give it to you stamina players. This was a cleaver way of pushing yalls playstyle back to GODmode. Across all Campaigns. If you think Non CP campaigns are Epic. That's fine then just stay there and play. Just don't try to force your will onto the rest of us. You have your playpen, why must yall be compelled to take away ours?

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The game is better off in some ways then it was two years ago, and worse off in others. Sadly, no game is perfect.

You can't really balance a game with no limits though. Once they removed caps in 1.6, it literally became the Wild Wild West.

They need to bring back hard and soft caps, BUT they need to be reasonable caps. It should not be easy to hit the hard caps, but the soft caps should encourage people to spread stats out in other areas.
When there is no limit on damage, folks are going to focus on it(Hence damage being off the charts)

When there is no limit on healing, and its tied to damage, folks will focus on it(the 10% wave hand once back to full Templars)

When there is no limits on stat pools your going to have the insane tanky guys with 70k or more health that block forever

They just need to come up with reasonable hard and soft caps. Hard caps that are not easy to reach, but soft cap diminishing returns that encourage folks to focus on other areas of their toons. The game would be much better overall if they done this with some skill tweaks, but im not holding my breath it ever happens.

All in All, the game is good in some ways and bad in others compared to 2 years ago. It is what it is. The game is by no means competitive and i wouldn't worry about dying in game either.

I agree more with this then just removing CPs altogther. Since the game is a whole different spot then it was, before the CP system. Tho I wouldn't mind them taking away the CP system. If ZOS balanced the gap for non CP magicka/stamina playstyles.

ATM at least for me personally. Stamina is pretty much godmode against magicka. In anything small to solo scale without CPs. Small scale being 1 to 4 players, (6 players max but then that's stretching it) and no more.

Lets get rid of the meme; If Magicka runs out of the opposite resource pools it's dead. If Stamina runs out of the opposite resource pool it's just inconvenienced. It's time to balance both playstyles for both group and solo/small group PvP. No more x playstyle was godmode for 6 months so now it should be garbage for 6 months. That type of thinking will kill off 4v4v4 battlegrounds before it even gets off of the ground. Think long term not with a short term-short sighted mind set.

For the love of all thats demonic and holy ZOS. Either bring heavy armor back down to light and medium armor levels. Or bring up light and medium armor up to heavy armor level. Preferably the first. Healthy 4v4v4 battlegrounds start now guys and gals. Jump onboard the balancing lobby train. Or end up with *** tier'ed at best GW2-like failscade, post HoT PvP arenas that are now all but forgotten.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · March 2017

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Where's The Balanced PvP?

the NO champion point campaigns are very close to Balanced PvP.
try it out. "Azuras Star Campaign"
as soon as i played in that campaign i saw balance and i don't plan to leave it.

but i strongly suggest you are atleast lvl 50 before go into there.

I lefted the No CP joint in a hurry. Here are my reasons why.

A.) Stamina builds are godly easy and unbalanced in there. If you don't want to nut hug a zerg as a magicka based players. Because of having little to no options for the magicka player to counter act the unbalanced resource pool that is stamina. Have to gimp damage to be able to survive in No CP as a mage. On the other hand stamina can just freely have the best of all worlds in No CP campaign.

B.) Proc Set Builds hits soo much harder. This is because they just requires you to auto or spam one attack mainly ambush to set off 15k to 20k worth of damage. Making their damage even higher, then actual non ultimate skill based damage, then that in the CP campaigns.

All and all, I avoid the non CP campaign. This is because I enjoy more of a spell-caster playstyle. That of one being more independent from the zerglings.

So no Non CP just has a different set of imbalance issues. Mostly highly favoring stamina based playstyles in 1v1 to small group vs small group play. Again this is because of the fact Stamina players, get Mobility, Survivalbility , Sustain, and High damage all from the same resource pool. And without CP's to help Mages somewhat overcome the Mobility/CC challenge aspect. After 2 to 3 CCs the mage is dead by default, while the stamina player can just laugh at CCs.

So until ZOS allow mages to be able to basically ignore CCs, like Stamina based players can. Of ZOS make stamina players have to deal with the same problems with CC that magicka based players face. I'll just stick to the CP campaigns. However I have to give it to you stamina players. This was a cleaver way of pushing yalls playstyle back to GODmode. Across all Campaigns. If you think Non CP campaigns are Epic. That's fine then just stay there and play. Just don't try to force your will onto the rest of us. You have your playpen, why must yall be compelled to take away ours?

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The game is better off in some ways then it was two years ago, and worse off in others. Sadly, no game is perfect.

You can't really balance a game with no limits though. Once they removed caps in 1.6, it literally became the Wild Wild West.

They need to bring back hard and soft caps, BUT they need to be reasonable caps. It should not be easy to hit the hard caps, but the soft caps should encourage people to spread stats out in other areas.
When there is no limit on damage, folks are going to focus on it(Hence damage being off the charts)

When there is no limit on healing, and its tied to damage, folks will focus on it(the 10% wave hand once back to full Templars)

When there is no limits on stat pools your going to have the insane tanky guys with 70k or more health that block forever

They just need to come up with reasonable hard and soft caps. Hard caps that are not easy to reach, but soft cap diminishing returns that encourage folks to focus on other areas of their toons. The game would be much better overall if they done this with some skill tweaks, but im not holding my breath it ever happens.

All in All, the game is good in some ways and bad in others compared to 2 years ago. It is what it is. The game is by no means competitive and i wouldn't worry about dying in game either.

I agree more with this then just removing CPs altogther. Since the game is a whole different spot then it was, before the CP system. Tho I wouldn't mind them taking away the CP system. If ZOS balanced the gap for non CP magicka/stamina playstyles.

ATM at least for me personally. Stamina is pretty much godmode against magicka. In anything small to solo scale without CPs. Small scale being 1 to 4 players, (6 players max but then that's stretching it) and no more.

Lets get rid of the meme; If Magicka runs out of the opposite resource pools it's dead. If Stamina runs out of the opposite resource pool it's just inconvenienced. It's time to balance both playstyles for both group and solo/small group PvP. No more x playstyle was godmode for 6 months so now it should be garbage for 6 months. That type of thinking will kill off 4v4v4 battlegrounds before it even gets off of the ground. Think long term not with a short term-short sighted mind set.

For the love of all thats demonic and holy ZOS. Either bring heavy armor back down to light and medium armor levels. Or bring up light and medium armor up to heavy armor level. Preferably the first. Healthy 4v4v4 battlegrounds start now guys and gals. Jump onboard the balancing lobby train. Or end up with *** tier'ed at best GW2-like failscade, post HoT PvP arenas that are now all but forgotten.

Please note that I respect that you clearly do know quite a bit about how this game works. That is obvious.

That said, as a magic player, I believe a significant majority of your complaints were accurate in the last patch but no longer are in this patch.

I do not feel stam users are in any way superior to magic users or vice versa at the moment.

DHale · March 2017

I think you are playing a different game. Don't worry about the tanks and the number of people that can actually kill groups of people solo or in a small group is maybe 12 on my platform and server. There is plenty of other people to fight and kill. Most telling is many of us have spent those two years you were gone getting better. No matter what you do you can't match that experience.

Ariades_swe · March 2017

Dont play a class based mmo for 1v1 balance. There is a reason why there is no competitive esport mmorpg save blade and soul.

fred4 · March 2017

I play a CP600 stam DK and magblade to a reasonable level. My stam DK is a better dueller, but i kill more people with my magblade in open world.

As the OP I would try the following: Don't use Lotus Fan, don't go for a melee playstyle unless you want to make a Proxy Det / Vicious Death build. The Destro staff was buffed this patch so that an Inferno staff gives you more damage, single target, than dual-wield. Impale was buffed to 28m. I recommend a ranged build. If you don't mind being a vampire, use Mist Form and Devouring Swarm.

I am no one. I don't stream. I'm old. I'm quite slow to learn. I wanted to keep my build reasonably simple. In case you're interested, it is here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/329000/easy-magicka-nightblade-pvp-build-non-vampire

I sympathise with some of the comments here. I get into trouble, if I'm caught by a Tremorscale / Viper (stamsorc) cancer build, because the Low Slash (and Tremorscale) snare is constantly re-applied, and their damage is so strong I only have time to cast shields anyway. It feels entirely unfair. That said, I didn't want to be a vampire and, I believe, Mist Form would be the counter. At the same time, Soul Assaulting players can feel entirely unfair to them, esp. when it's the followup attack after your stealth opener. Swings and roundabouts.

josh.lackey_ESO · March 2017

Dark Exchange spam is overrated. A competent opponent is going to counter it with an interrupt. Crushing Shock and Venom Arrow do this from range, as does the gap closer Focused Charge and its morphs. Deep Breath and Explosive Charge are AoE interrupts. And of course melee characters can simply bash, which stuns and sets off balance anyone casting.

thankyourat · March 2017

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Dark Exchange spam is overrated. A competent opponent is going to counter it with an interrupt. Crushing Shock and Venom Arrow do this from range, as does the gap closer Focused Charge and its morphs. Deep Breath and Explosive Charge are AoE interrupts. And of course melee characters can simply bash, which stuns and sets off balance anyone casting.

Just hide behind a tree and then use the ability

Ariades_swe · March 2017

thankyourat wrote: »

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Dark Exchange spam is overrated. A competent opponent is going to counter it with an interrupt. Crushing Shock and Venom Arrow do this from range, as does the gap closer Focused Charge and its morphs. Deep Breath and Explosive Charge are AoE interrupts. And of course melee characters can simply bash, which stuns and sets off balance anyone casting.

Just hide behind a tree and then use the ability

I agree. Any competent pvper wouldnt use that skill in meleerange.

timborggrenlarsenb16_ESO · March 2017

what Balance???? :O

Jitterbug · March 2017

Even thé tanks that dont so much damage I just leave now. I didnt join Azuras for endless fights. The high mitigation fights only seem to end when someone joins one or the other team, and that's unsatisfactory either way.
It's a little silly and a little sad to see tanks standing all alone on a hill side when a whole faction just runs around them.

BoxFoxx · March 2017

While there are some tank stats that can be overpowered, it is the healing factor that is causing the imbalance in PvP. In fact, I remember going into PvP for the first time a couple years ago and being surprised that I was able to heal myself in a PvP match. I, along with everyone else, have just gotten used to it now. But really, it shouldn't work that way in a PvP combat game. There needs to be a bounce back time that forces you to flee or take cover when low on health. (e.g. 1 sec cool-down on being healed for every 1k of healing received for all players while in Cyrodiil... or something like that.) Injury (low health) is a common design and function in top PvP combat games and what helps them to be balanced.

To make sure the game stays alive while capturing a keep however, the radius of a spawn camp near a keep should include the entire vicinity of the keep (spawn camps being placed inside keeps should not be allowed). This will be needed as there will be more deaths (kills), however the dynamic would be more on par with the best of PvP combat games.

BoxFoxx · March 2017

While there are some tank stats that can be overpowered, it is the healing factor that is causing the imbalance in PvP. In fact, I remember going into PvP for the first time a couple years ago and being surprised that I was able to heal myself in a PvP match. I, along with everyone else, have just gotten used to it now. But really, it shouldn't work that way in a PvP combat game. There needs to be a bounce back time that forces you to flee or take cover when low on health. (e.g. 1 sec cool-down on being healed for every 1k of healing received for all players while in Cyrodiil... or something like that.) Injury (low health) is a common design and function in top PvP combat games and what helps them to be balanced.

To make sure the game stays alive while capturing a keep however, the radius of a spawn camp near a keep should include the entire vicinity of the keep (spawn camps being placed inside keeps should not be allowed). This will be needed as there will be more deaths (kills), however the dynamic would be more on par with the best of PvP combat games.

GrigorijMalahevich · March 2017

Maybe... judt maybe - you are a very bad player?

Joy_Division · March 2017

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Dark Exchange spam is overrated. A competent opponent is going to counter it with an interrupt. Crushing Shock and Venom Arrow do this from range, as does the gap closer Focused Charge and its morphs. Deep Breath and Explosive Charge are AoE interrupts. And of course melee characters can simply bash, which stuns and sets off balance anyone casting.

My my, didn't these stam sorcs insist Radiant DEstruction was OP because it often was impractical to bash/interrupt it? And a templar casting RD actually was super-snared and couldn't hide behind a tree like a sorcerer.

But, somehow that didn't make RD overrated.

DHale · March 2017

Balanced a PVP does not mean that someone who has been gone 2 years can EVER compete with people who have played every day of those 2 years... and more.