Maintenance for the week of March 30:
• [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – April 1, 1:00PM EDT (17:00 UTC) - 5:00PM EDT (21:00 UTC)

Trader Notification Glitches & "Dummy" Guild Exploitation Needs To Stop!

The_Smilemeister
The_Smilemeister
✭✭✭✭✭
This is an issue which has gone on for too long now (at least on the PS4 EU; can't speak for PS4 NA or Xbox or PC/Mac).

For the past countless weeks there's been a serious exploit affecting trading in the game. I know many people who have sent many tickets to Zenimax and have seen at least two other posts regarding this issue (I'll be shouting out to @Prof_Bawbag and @Anne13 and providing links to their posts at the bottom). Yet despite these report tickets, posts being made to draw attention to this issue, and now with the offenders of said exploit being called out and now having to do damage control on Facebook and even in-game, nothing has yet been done about.

So the aim of this post is not just to try and raise awareness of this issue for PS4 players, but also to inform Xbox and PC players who may or may not be affected by this and hopefully for Zenimax to wake up to this glaring issue and do something to stop it.

So without further ado, let's begin.

So many of you may or may not notice that about a day after bids close for readership kiosks (PS4 EU is Sunday, not sure about others) after you guild has one a trader, you may notice that your guild page will no longer display the kiosk you've won. This doesn't mean that you've lost the right to own the trader after you've won the bid, it means that the notifications are glitches. How do they become glitches? I'm about to tell you.

On the PS4 there's a trading alliance (which I can't name for forum guideline reasons) which has numerous big guilds under its belt (can't name the guilds for the same reason). They usually go for the major kiosks at places like Mournhold or Belkarth. In theory all of these guilds should be on a constant winning steak, however they aren't due to growing competition.

Now this is where the exploit comes into play. Because some of their guilds haven't been winning, they're resorted to "dummy guilds". These so called dummy guilds are setup by members of this alliance so that in the event that one of their main guild loses and this dummy succeeds, the dummy will then be disbanded and the kiosks will then become free so that the losing major guild can get said kiosk for "free".

For those who don't know what a "dummy guild" is, a dummy is created usually by alternate accounts associated with or directly controlled by the leadership of the offending guilds/alliance. These dummy guilds then recruit up to 50 more members (also believed to be alt accounts) so they can bid on traders. These dummies will then seek out a likely cheap kiosk target in places like Mournhold or Belkarth. They'll then be provided by funds by the offending guilds/alliance leaders so they may stand a chance of winning a kiosk. If the dummy wins the kiosk and if one of the main guilds lose their bid, the dummy will then be disbanded, leaving said kiosk free and allowing the losing guild to claim a "free trader". This alone is what's causing the trader notification glitches you may see (PS4 EU players will know what I'm on about) and I've not even gotten to the serious impacts of this exploit yet.

This ingenious yet disgusting practice is bad for many reasons.

First of all these dummy guilds promote bad trading by preventing legitimate guilds from winning traders they may have otherwise won. This practice throws away any regard for the guilds and players who are impacted, drives away real competition and allows the offending guilds/alliance to dominate the guild trading markets almost unchallenged.

Secondly, this also allows the leaders of said guilds opportunity to pocket the "fruit of their labour". Now I'm not going to say that these guilds/alliances in question do this, however this opens up a major concern which can impact the members of said offending groups without them even realising.

Because they are earning trading kiosks for "free" by using dummies for bids, the guilds who have used the dummy exploit has saved millions of gold by doing so. This leaves the owners of said guilds the opportunity to take out the gold earned from the taxes of items sold and the donations from committed (and possibly oblivious too) members and pocket it for themselves. The gold which should've gone towards the kiosk bid is now in the hands of the rogue owners without the acknowledgement of the guild's membership.

This exploit not only robs trading opportunities from legitimate guilds, but also fools hundreds of players to believe that their gold donations are going towards traders when it actually goes into the hands of the crude owners who have devised a smart, but damaging practice.

I hope this post allows PS4 players on the EU server to stand up to these rogue guilds and alliances and I hope it's also brought the attention of unknowing PS4 NA and Xbox and PC/Mac players and most importantly gives a reason for Zenimax to take actual steps to punishing players who make use of this exploit and provide a solution to prevent the practice from continuing any further.

This has gone on long enough and I hope this inspires players to speak up against this practice and to encourage unsuspecting players who are part of guilds like this to leave them and join legitimate guilds who do want to trade properly and who don't want to exploit the flaws of this system to their advantage.

Here are links to the posts I previously mention. Thanks again to @Prof_Bawbag and @Anne13 for also speaking out about this and for being the inspiration behind this post.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/328480/about-time-certain-guilds-are-dealt-with-trader-glitching#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/328400/exploiting-of-the-trading-system

#MakeTamrielTradingGreatAgain
  • Hyrianeth
    Hyrianeth
    ✭✭
    This wouldnt happen on a global auction house.

    My body is ready for your salt.
  • AFrostWolf
    AFrostWolf
    ✭✭✭✭
    Hyrianeth wrote: »
    This wouldnt happen on a global auction house.

    My body is ready for your salt.

    QFT
  • DannyLV702
    DannyLV702
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Whoa this is big
  • Ackwalan
    Ackwalan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is old news. Also, the guild doesn't get a trader for free, nor cheaply. The dummy guild still has to win and pay for the trader. All this does is allow guilds to have a bod on multiple traders at the same time. Doing this is both expensive in gold and a pain to get enough people/accounts to cooperate.
  • Cpt_Teemo
    Cpt_Teemo
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Fix: Global Server wide Auction house and remove all guild vendors, and have the remaining guild currencies to be locked and only useable on buying houses / furnished or not.
  • Tabbycat
    Tabbycat
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    This seems to be going on for a while now so I guess the only thing left to do is for everyone with a trading guild to start creating dummy guilds.

    If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
    Founder and Co-GM of The Psijic Order Guild (NA)
    0.016%
  • alexkdd99
    alexkdd99
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lol they obviously aren't getting it for free if they are bidding on it with their dummy guild. So maybe you should rethink the who getting it for free thing. While your at it rethink the whole exploit thing, as far as I know zos has never said this was an exploit. If they have do you care to show me where.

    Either way they are paying for the trader. Stop whining and out bid them. They are not getting them for free. The other guild still has to bid on it and win. Where do you think that gold came from? Whoever wins the bid owns that trader and they can do whatever they want with it. Don't like it? Bid higher next time. Coming to the forums to cry isn't going to miraculously get you a trader.

    The gold that is donated from the members is going to a trader either way. Not sure how you think anyone could possibly pocket any money as what you are suggesting would cost the guild more money, not less. So somehow you think a guild bidding on 2 traders is cheaper?

    There is a reason nobody is talking about it, nobody cares. If a guild wants to throw extra gold around then so be it, it's theirs to do so with.
  • Tabbycat
    Tabbycat
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Instead of creating a bunch of so called dummy guilds, wouldn't it be more lucrative to just create an Alliance with a main guild and 4 sister guilds?

    A Guild Alliance would seem far less sinister than "dummy guilds".

    Just my two cents.
    Founder and Co-GM of The Psijic Order Guild (NA)
    0.016%
  • film
    film
    ✭✭✭
    Tabbycat wrote: »
    Instead of creating a bunch of so called dummy guilds, wouldn't it be more lucrative to just create an Alliance with a main guild and 4 sister guilds?

    A Guild Alliance would seem far less sinister than "dummy guilds".

    Just my two cents.

    I'm not sure what's more lucrative: Joining a Guild Alliance or selling the 'dummy guild' spots to others for bid cost + finders fee?

    Follow the stream if you like the stream. Marry the stream if you love the stream.
  • usmcjdking
    usmcjdking
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    this is some enron level ***

    mfw i realize i'm old enough to remember enron

    mfw most of the playerbase isn't
    Edited by usmcjdking on 16 March 2017 03:20
    0331
    0602
  • Cadbury
    Cadbury
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    this is some enron level ***

    mfw i realize i'm old enough to remember enron

    mfw most of the playerbase isn't

    I remember Zach Enron

    437px-Zac_Efron_TIFF_2012.jpg

    :p
    "If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."
  • Prof_Bawbag
    Prof_Bawbag
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Ackwalan wrote: »
    This is old news. Also, the guild doesn't get a trader for free, nor cheaply. The dummy guild still has to win and pay for the trader. All this does is allow guilds to have a bod on multiple traders at the same time. Doing this is both expensive in gold and a pain to get enough people/accounts to cooperate.

    Can't be that much of a ballache if they're able to do this on a weekly basis. Also, this impacts on other guilds. GM busy telling people their members or recruits they have traders in Mournhold, Wayrest etc, yet the MOTD telling those people something else entirely.

    My heart breaks for those you mention, it truly does for all the pain and hardship they have to endure to create those dummy guilds, but like i said, creating dummy guilds impacts on every guild. It makes recruiting so much more difficult when your MOTD is telling people you own nothing.
    Edited by Prof_Bawbag on 16 March 2017 09:47
  • Chilly-McFreeze
    Chilly-McFreeze
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Aha. And the money for the bid from the dummy guild just magicaly appears out of thin air?
  • Anne13
    Anne13
    ✭✭✭✭
    Let's work out shall we. 100k bid from their dummy guild. 10k to hire when the main guild takes over after the dummy guild gets disbanded.

    The guild makes 5m. That's a profit of... doesn't take a genius to work out.

    Whilst other honest guilds have to pay 3m to 7m each week to get a trader...

    Not only are they exploiting the trader system in a way that wasn't intended. Theyre also stealing from members donations and sales taxes. Withdrawn from the guild ( backed up ) and never seen again. These poor oblivious members think their donations are paying for a trader. Not for the GM's financial gain!

    Learn the definition of ' exploit '
    Learn how the trader system was intended to work.
    Surely people can't condone this...

    They have more than 10 guilds. For arguments sake. There's 40 people in their alliance. Each of those people has 3,4 or 5 alt accounts. Add them to the dummy guilds. Boom simple.
    It's not difficult to log on and alt account and join and leave guilds.. come on

    A measely few hundred k from a guild earning 4-7mil

    Think about it
    Edited by Anne13 on 16 March 2017 10:20
  • Chilly-McFreeze
    Chilly-McFreeze
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    I've never bid on a guild kiosk so I may miss something out. Can someone explain this idiot friendly to me?

    1. Main Guild bids on Kiosk A. Kiosk A is popular and expensive. Main Guild loses bid.
    2. Dummy Guild bid in the meanwhile on Kiosk B. Kiosk B is cheap.
    3. Dummy guild won kiosk B. Dummy Guild disbands.
    4. Main Guild takes slot of kiosk B.

    Did I get this right so far?
    Now on to my questions.

    #1. How comes Kiosk B is so cheap?
    #2. What happens to the money of the succesfull bid for Kiosk B?
    #3. What are the costs for taking a free kiosk B from a disbanded guild?
    #4. Can other Guilds buy the disbanded kiosk B as well?

  • Prof_Bawbag
    Prof_Bawbag
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Aha. And the money for the bid from the dummy guild just magicaly appears out of thin air?

    Your sentiment makes little to no sense when you think about it. Why create dummy guilds if it required the same amount of gold or fairness as it would for their main trader? Exploiting something usually means the perpetrator is gaining some sort of advantage otherwise it ceases to be an exploit.

    I mean, why would anyone use a dummy guild when they could have simply done that legitimately through their established guild and stand to lose out on that spot like every other guild? Dummy guilds serve a purpose and that purpose isn't to create a level playing field.


    Edited by Prof_Bawbag on 16 March 2017 10:30
  • Anne13
    Anne13
    ✭✭✭✭
    I've never bid on a guild kiosk so I may miss something out. Can someone explain this idiot friendly to me?

    1. Main Guild bids on Kiosk A. Kiosk A is popular and expensive. Main Guild loses bid.
    2. Dummy Guild bid in the meanwhile on Kiosk B. Kiosk B is cheap.
    3. Dummy guild won kiosk B. Dummy Guild disbands.
    4. Main Guild takes slot of kiosk B.

    Did I get this right so far?
    Now on to my questions.

    #1. How comes Kiosk B is so cheap?
    #2. What happens to the money of the succesfull bid for Kiosk B?
    #3. What are the costs for taking a free kiosk B from a disbanded guild?
    #4. Can other Guilds buy the disbanded kiosk B as well?

    Dummy guild bids 100k or something low
    As apposed to honest legit guilds that lose a 4.5m bid in Deshaan for instance.

    If no one else bids on the spot that the dummy guilds bid on the dummy guild wins it for peanuts.

    Hence they cover every trader in every main town.

    There's been many times were there's been 3 dummy guilds at once.

    The main guild lost their 5m bid and that 5m refunded back to the guild bank.

    One gm who can hire stands in front of the dummy guild and waits until the other gm disbands the dummy guild.

    At that point it will become free to hire for 10k

    So. The main guild made 5m set a dummy guild up which cost say 200k

    The main guild has a top trader and withdraws the 4.8m that they saved by using the dummy guild exploit.

    I hope this helps
  • Chilly-McFreeze
    Chilly-McFreeze
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Okay, got it so far.
    But kiosk B goes for 10k because it's in a bad spot or because every single bidder/guild leader for a kiosk in Belkarth bid for keen-eyes instead of one of the other 6 spots there?

    I don't get how it's possible to get a spot in a trading hub for so few coins. Why don't someone outbid the dummy guild if they bid on a highly trafficed/ popular spot?
  • darkllord
    darkllord
    ✭✭✭
    Global Auction House
  • DRXHarbinger
    DRXHarbinger
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Maybe I'm the only one that thinks this... it I like having huge guilds in place all over taking up all the spots. Anytime these new guilds take up a spot they have nothing but over priced *** for sale or barely anything. Huge 500 strong trading guilds have plenty to offer and more competition on pricing so better for consumers.

    Plus you'll find op these huge dominant guilds in console are owned by a PC transfer who is still filthy rich from an old item dupe / gold glitch back in the day so you'll never win without an outrageous bid and you'll just chuck gold away and run at a loss.
    PC Master Race

    1001CP
    8 Flawless Toons, all Classes.
    Master Angler
    Dro-M'artha Destroyer (at last)
    Tamriel Hero
    Grand Overlord
    Every Skyshard
    Down With BOP!
  • Cpt_Teemo
    Cpt_Teemo
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    darkllord wrote: »
    Global Auction House

    #2 ^
  • ChildOfLight
    ChildOfLight
    ✭✭✭
    Someone above proposed to switch the whole sistem to an auction house based one, shifting this wonderful and peculiar game to a generic MMO. Nonsense. Stop trying to focus every topic on that.

    The fix is simple: guilds winning a bid, can't disband during that week.

    Problem solved, everyone's happy.
    Edited by ChildOfLight on 16 March 2017 11:16
    PC EU

    Ross Campano - Imperial Dragonknight - Tanks and steals stuff from barrels
  • luen79rwb17_ESO
    luen79rwb17_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow so much work for a trader!
    Edited by luen79rwb17_ESO on 16 March 2017 11:23
    PC/DC/NAserver

    V16 sorc - V16 temp - V16 dk - V1 nb - V1 temp - V1 dk
  • LilySix
    LilySix
    ✭✭✭
    Maybe I'm the only one that thinks this... it I like having huge guilds in place all over taking up all the spots. Anytime these new guilds take up a spot they have nothing but over priced *** for sale or barely anything. Huge 500 strong trading guilds have plenty to offer and more competition on pricing so better for consumers.
    .

    In fact it does'nt work like that. They buy everything to resell it after with higher prices. They control the whole market on PS4 EU. And that is really annoying !
    GM Hangovers - PS4
    "Soyez vous -même, les autres sont déjà pris"
    Oscar Wilde

    Youtube channel => C'est par ici
  • Fudly_budly
    Fudly_budly
    ✭✭✭✭
    and the following week the "refunded" gold for the lost bid in the prime hub is used to bid higher on the prime hub location by the parent guild to re-secure prime spot.
    Still can't quite get my head around the "exploit" part.
    I'm not a GM but a trader and, honestly, my loyalty is to the kiosk not the guild. If guild A, B, or C has it, I don't care. Guild rosters are highly fluid.

    Rule #1: RL trumps gaming.
    Rule #2: True immersion is RL.
    Rule #3: RL lag is wonderful.
    Rule #4: People matter. Pixels do not.
  • Annalyse
    Annalyse
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Someone above proposed to switch the whole sistem to an auction house based one, shifting this wonderful and peculiar game to a generic MMO. Nonsense. Stop trying to focus every topic on that.

    The fix is simple: guilds winning a bid, can't disband during that week.

    Problem solved, everyone's happy.

    That's a pretty good idea, actually. While normally I don't really see this situation as a problem (aside from it just being an unethical practice that I don't agree with), I have been finding myself rather irritated lately when I'm shopping in a major hub like Mournhold or Rawl'kha and find a guild with no store listings whatsoever. I assume this is because both the main guild and the dummy guild won spots.
  • DRXHarbinger
    DRXHarbinger
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    LilySix wrote: »
    Maybe I'm the only one that thinks this... it I like having huge guilds in place all over taking up all the spots. Anytime these new guilds take up a spot they have nothing but over priced *** for sale or barely anything. Huge 500 strong trading guilds have plenty to offer and more competition on pricing so better for consumers.
    .

    In fact it does'nt work like that. They buy everything to resell it after with higher prices. They control the whole market on PS4 EU. And that is really annoying !

    Ok well that doesn't happen on XB eu. Temp alloys now are a record low of 10k. Kuta 5k. Even spriggan gear and mothers sorrow swords have dropped from near 1m a sword down to a few hundred K. I'm guessing ps4 players didn't buy into housing and have that bleed them out. Everything for us is now at an all time low and it's great.

    People can't be greedy forever. I had someone post a dye station up for sale I offered him 250k and he said he wanted 275k. ..no deal he said he'd get better. It's still in the trader for that and other people are dumping them for 150k now.

    Bet he's regretting it.
    PC Master Race

    1001CP
    8 Flawless Toons, all Classes.
    Master Angler
    Dro-M'artha Destroyer (at last)
    Tamriel Hero
    Grand Overlord
    Every Skyshard
    Down With BOP!
  • Prof_Bawbag
    Prof_Bawbag
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    LilySix wrote: »
    Maybe I'm the only one that thinks this... it I like having huge guilds in place all over taking up all the spots. Anytime these new guilds take up a spot they have nothing but over priced *** for sale or barely anything. Huge 500 strong trading guilds have plenty to offer and more competition on pricing so better for consumers.
    .

    In fact it does'nt work like that. They buy everything to resell it after with higher prices. They control the whole market on PS4 EU. And that is really annoying !

    Ok well that doesn't happen on XB eu. Temp alloys now are a record low of 10k. Kuta 5k. Even spriggan gear and mothers sorrow swords have dropped from near 1m a sword down to a few hundred K. I'm guessing ps4 players didn't buy into housing and have that bleed them out. Everything for us is now at an all time low and it's great.

    People can't be greedy forever. I had someone post a dye station up for sale I offered him 250k and he said he wanted 275k. ..no deal he said he'd get better. It's still in the trader for that and other people are dumping them for 150k now.

    Bet he's regretting it.

    The best part is, he'll not even get that because of the fees etc that he'll lose listing it in a vendor. It's easy to find crafting station for under 200k on the PS4 now. Some people are just greedy and they tend to cut their nose off to spite their face in the end.
  • Cherryblossom
    Cherryblossom
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Okay, got it so far.
    But kiosk B goes for 10k because it's in a bad spot or because every single bidder/guild leader for a kiosk in Belkarth bid for keen-eyes instead of one of the other 6 spots there?

    I don't get how it's possible to get a spot in a trading hub for so few coins. Why don't someone outbid the dummy guild if they bid on a highly trafficed/ popular spot?

    @Chilly-McFreeze

    I agree, this is the thing that stops this being an "Exploit"
    If anyone can win this spot then its not an exploit, also quite clearly the main guild now has a trader in a less populated position.
    So the Main Guild whilst it may have a Trader, now loses out due to being in a bad location.
    It almost like a Hedge bet, as it's better to have a trader than not have one.

    If this same guild, for 10 weeks maintains its position, then loses it, the new guild position in the worse place has in fact cost 1 million gold because they have paid for something they didn't need for the previous 10 weeks.
  • Anne13
    Anne13
    ✭✭✭✭
    They will always been in one of the 4 main towns. Both main and dummy guilds.

    I impose that they could implement that any guild that owns a trader location can not disband a guild during this ownership. Or, if a guild disbands whilst owning a trader location that location then becomes unavailable, frozen out until the following trader switch.
Sign In or Register to comment.