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No more crown crates
davey1107
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I love ESO...I've played since the early days...so don't get me wrong about this post. But ZOS, I will never, ever, ever spend a single dollar on anything you offer so long as you are offering the crown crate gambling system.
This scheme is intended to pump up your sales by offering glitzy, highly desirable items that look less expensive on the surface than they actually are. Players see a 100 crown crate price tag and think they can spend a few bucks to get them, when in reality it can be tens or hundreds of dollars to win any specific item. When a player pulls five items they don't want and are left with only 1/8th the crowns they need to get their desired item, they will naturally feel that they've already invested in this endeavor and can't walk away with nothing, so they play more, whether it's in their budget or not. This is human nature. I have a degree in business marketing and economics, and I'm educated in psychology. People like me get paid to make people buy things. And to buy more of them. I know what you're doing here.
To be clear, I'm not morally opposed to marketing schemes, and I'm not even opposed to gambling. What I'm opposed to is that this is a game that is played by a lot of minors. Selling to them this way is sleazy, it disgusts me, and I feel it's a new low for a company that often offers great products, but also has a shady side. If you have some really cool vanity features you want to add to the game, go right ahead. But put a real,world price tag on them so that people know exactly how many real world dollars they're investing.
Your RNG garbage is fine in the game...that's what MMOs are about. But playing RNG with people's real money, and especially with kids' real money, utterly, utterly sucks.
This scheme is intended to pump up your sales by offering glitzy, highly desirable items that look less expensive on the surface than they actually are. Players see a 100 crown crate price tag and think they can spend a few bucks to get them, when in reality it can be tens or hundreds of dollars to win any specific item. When a player pulls five items they don't want and are left with only 1/8th the crowns they need to get their desired item, they will naturally feel that they've already invested in this endeavor and can't walk away with nothing, so they play more, whether it's in their budget or not. This is human nature. I have a degree in business marketing and economics, and I'm educated in psychology. People like me get paid to make people buy things. And to buy more of them. I know what you're doing here.
To be clear, I'm not morally opposed to marketing schemes, and I'm not even opposed to gambling. What I'm opposed to is that this is a game that is played by a lot of minors. Selling to them this way is sleazy, it disgusts me, and I feel it's a new low for a company that often offers great products, but also has a shady side. If you have some really cool vanity features you want to add to the game, go right ahead. But put a real,world price tag on them so that people know exactly how many real world dollars they're investing.
Your RNG garbage is fine in the game...that's what MMOs are about. But playing RNG with people's real money, and especially with kids' real money, utterly, utterly sucks.
17
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Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sadly for everyone who hates this there are those who don't care and will buy them all up in mass.
It's a horrible system which is insulting to the consumer but the side of ZOS in charge of the store hasn't and won't ever care about the consumer because they just want to make the most money from this possible.
At the end of the day yes ZOS is a great company full of great people, but its parent company has tasted years of massive income from the TES series and they expect the same from ESO.
I have purchased a number from the last series as I really wanted the mount for my Sorcerer, this season I haven't purchased any as there is nothing I want.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."10 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Darkstorne wrote: »
You've got to differentiate here.
- If people buy crates in the hope to get some particular specific item "cheap", then they're seeing it wrong and get scammed. We should warn them and explain again and again.
- If people are buying crates for the thrill of opening them, then they're purchasing exactly what is offered and it's their choice and freedom, we've got no right to tell them what they should or shouldn't spend their money on.
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AdamBourke✭✭✭✭✭What I'm opposed to is that this is a game that is played by a lot of minors.
@davey1107 I dislike the crown crates intensely, but there is some flaw with this argument. This game has a mature rating, minors should not be playing it.
I'm not convinced that ZOS do enough to actually ensure this, and now that it contains gambling maybe they should work harder to ensure this - but technically they should not be playing...
PS4 - EU
Please put the Eyevea/EarthForge wayshrines back on the map?6 -
makeumrage✭✭✭Two four packs, two apex mounts... cant pull a sharpened sun sword to save my life though..2 -
Darkstorne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Darkstorne wrote: »
You've got to differentiate here.
- If people buy crates in the hope to get some particular specific item "cheap", then they're seeing it wrong and get scammed. We should warn them and explain again and again.
- If people are buying crates for the thrill of opening them, then they're purchasing exactly what is offered and it's their choice and freedom, we've got no right to tell them what they should or shouldn't spend their money on.
And I never said anything to disagree with that statement. I'm just trying to clarify that this is why some people support crates. You guys are telling me you genuinely prefer giving ZOS more money for random items that you have no control over, rather than giving them less money for specific items individually? Just because you get a thrill out of the presentation..?3 -
JWKe✭✭✭✭Being that black history month just pass I think it is appropriate here to quote MLK "There comes a time when silence is betrayal."
As OP has stated marketing is fair game but when marketing starts affecting the children someone has to speak up and put a stop to this.
Sometimes it all comes down to doing the right thing. People may say right and wrong is unclear but I think it's fairly clear in this situation and that is. DONT. MANIPULATE. CHILDREN.
This game has an ESRB rating of M 17+ and 17 year olds are still considered minors. So Zo$ either change the ratings or ensure minors don't get dragged in to this absolutely filthy business practice.
I know you guys are trying to make your quarterly reports look pretty hence the release of the wild hunt clown crates before the end of q1 and again with your planned release of the dwemmer crates before the end of q2 but let us please at least maintain a certain level of honor and ethics.Edited by JWKe on 3 March 2017 11:343 -
JWKe✭✭✭✭Oh and here is a link to the legal gambling age in the U.S. The consensus seem to be 18+, and 21+ in the gambling capital of Nevada.
https://www.casino.org/us/guide/1 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Darkstorne wrote: »I'm just trying to clarify that this is why some people support crates. You guys are telling me you genuinely prefer giving ZOS more money for random items that you have no control over, rather than giving them less money for specific items individually? Just because you get a thrill out of the presentation..?
That's also beyond my understanding but yeah, according to more than one testomonies on this forum, there are people who enjoy the pure thrill of it and agree to pay a price for it.
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anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As OP has stated marketing is fair game but when marketing starts affecting the children someone has to speak up and put a stop to this.
Sometimes it all comes down to doing the right thing. People may say right and wrong is unclear but I think it's fairly clear in this situation and that is. DONT. MANIPULATE. CHILDREN.
Well if you're concerned over children being manipulated by marketing, you should consider fighting McDonald's and Coca-cola, they're far more harmful than ZOS.
In order to engage in ESO's gambling crates people have to buy crowns, with real cash and some method of payment, that's enough barriers so that parents should be in a position to control the situation.
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The few whales there are give them more than the majority of smaller spenders before the gambling unfortunately. Otherwise they would have discontinued this by now. The blame isn't on the whales, since they have the money why not I would think the way they do if my bank was bloated too. It just sits there might as well spend it on something. It is not the fault of the devs since it is natural for the strong to prey on the weak.
The fault is with every other player out there that has purchased a single rng box, or made a single post in support of it even if only saying "you don't have to buy it so idc". They are the ones to blame when your game gets flushed down the can. Not the whales, not the devs, they are doing what's in their nature.
The playerbase developing a Stockholm syndrome over it and continuing to hand the company money for anything even if it's only for morrowind are entirely to blame for allowing the spread of this infection. Be angry with them, and speak to them. The devs won't listen, the whales don't need to listen, but the players have shown they are pretty dull and open to suggestion so you only need to find the right way to plant your opinions in their little heads.
Edited by necronomniconb14_ESO on 3 March 2017 19:472 -
Slurg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭necronomniconb14_ESO wrote: »The few whales there are give them more than the majority of smaller spenders before the gambling unfortunately. Otherwise they would have discontinued this by now. The blame isn't on the whales, since they have the money why not I would think the way they do if my bank was bloated too. It just sits there might as well spend it on something. It is not the fault of the devs since it is natural for the strong to prey on the weak.
The fault is with every other player out there that has purchased a single rng box, or made a single post in support of it even if only saying "you don't have to buy it so idc". They are the ones to blame when your game gets flushed down the can. Not the whales, not the devs, they are doing what's in their nature.
The playerbase developing a Stockholm syndrome over it and continuing to hand the company money for anything even if it's only for morrowind are entirely to blame for allowing the spread of this infection. Be angry with them, and speak to them. The devs won't listen, the whales don't need to listen, but the players have shown they are pretty dull and open to suggestion so you only need to find the right way to plant your opinions in their little heads.
Have you seen the thread from the guy who insists that the gambling crates are not really gambling?
There's no talking to them, it's too late.
Edit: I should be more positive, but it's hard.Edited by Slurg on 3 March 2017 15:03Happy All the Holidays To You and Yours!
Remembering better days of less RNG in all the things.5 -
necronomniconb14_ESO wrote: »The few whales there are give them more than the majority of smaller spenders before the gambling unfortunately. Otherwise they would have discontinued this by now. The blame isn't on the whales, since they have the money why not I would think the way they do if my bank was bloated too. It just sits there might as well spend it on something. It is not the fault of the devs since it is natural for the strong to prey on the weak.
The fault is with every other player out there that has purchased a single rng box, or made a single post in support of it even if only saying "you don't have to buy it so idc". They are the ones to blame when your game gets flushed down the can. Not the whales, not the devs, they are doing what's in their nature.
The playerbase developing a Stockholm syndrome over it and continuing to hand the company money for anything even if it's only for morrowind are entirely to blame for allowing the spread of this infection. Be angry with them, and speak to them. The devs won't listen, the whales don't need to listen, but the players have shown they are pretty dull and open to suggestion so you only need to find the right way to plant your opinions in their little heads.
Have you seen the thread from the guy who insists that the gambling crates are not really gambling?
There's no talking to them, it's too late.
Edit: I should be more positive, but it's hard.
Thank god I haven't seen it. When you spend money and the results of the purchase rely on chance that is a wager lol. Which is how real money transactions involved in gambling are referred to. People are betting that they'll win, but the house usually wins. Zyngamax is the house here. Players are wagering on the rewards for their payments. Rather than Purchasing something, which is when a transaction is made by a price set for a product described and delivered as described.
Maybe the guy knows it is gambling, and was hoping to do some good by baiting posts over it. No good could come from that sort of attention though, it only starts flamewars unfortunately. People become bitter over it when an argument is begun with such an absurd view. Even the gamblers know it's gambling, and are okay with it, don't care or manage to have theirs under control. Many people set a limit on their gambling and do not go over it. But they know they're making a wager on what they'll get or when they'll get it. The size of that depends on how big a bet they're willing to place, meaning how much they're willing to spend if they're not very lucky.
This sort of thing is everywhere now in games unfortunately. It has become so huge, and so common, that it requires specific regulation. Even Valve had issues over this, even though it was third parties and it was unauthorized gambling offsite. Gambling is always an easy way to make loads of money since you prey on both hope and regret. It victimizes those having issues with restraint or that fail to think about the sum of their wagers in the long haul. People hope they'll bet little and win big, others continue betting in hopes they'll make up for their losses when they should cut them and move on. Very few win in the end, except the house, so with few payouts the house is making easy money. Far more than the shills would continue hammering into you is "needed".Edited by necronomniconb14_ESO on 3 March 2017 20:032 -
Hanokihs✭✭✭✭✭necronomniconb14_ESO wrote: »Even the gamblers know it's gambling, and are okay with it, don't care or manage to have theirs under control. Many people set a limit on their gambling and do not go over it.
Just commenting because this statement stood out so much; it's very true and a valid comparison. Most gamblers have a bet ceiling, pocket their winnings, and quit when the initial investment hits $0. I wonder if more Crate buyers would feel less ripped-off if they bothered to count up the potential Crown cost of things they want and refrained from exceeding it when they buy the Crate packs.
I mean, each sparkly mount in these things is about 4250 Crowns alone (based on prices of Elk and Dro M'athra Senche), which equates to nearly $32 apiece (based on the value of each crown in a 5500 bundle). Heaven help the unlucky person who legitimately wants all 6, and that doesn't begin to include costumes, pets, other mounts, transformations, etc.
Yeah, the items are horrendously expensive, especially in the wake of what appears to be a Crown sale drought. But it's not like anyone is hiding that from the players. A little math = a lot less outrage and surprise."I haven't really played much yet, but lemme tell you all about how the game should include X and be a lot more like Y!" - Half the posters on this forum."I've been here for years, and lemme tell you all about how they should never change or evolve Z, because then the game would be ruined forever." - The other half of posters on this forum.0 -
Dayth✭✭✭necronomniconb14_ESO wrote: »Even the gamblers know it's gambling, and are okay with it, don't care or manage to have theirs under control. Many people set a limit on their gambling and do not go over it.
Just commenting because this statement stood out so much; it's very true and a valid comparison. Most gamblers have a bet ceiling, pocket their winnings, and quit when the initial investment hits $0. I wonder if more Crate buyers would feel less ripped-off if they bothered to count up the potential Crown cost of things they want and refrained from exceeding it when they buy the Crate packs.
Aye but we're talking about gambling in a game, in real life you bet money and you can win money, the majority of people are going in for a specific item and that will be their "bet ceiling."
The gem system that comes with these crates is a double edged sword. Sure, you're guaranteed to get the item you want but because you can buy it with gems you're gonna keep buying crates because you know eventually you'll get enough for the item even if you don't get it from a crate, your bet limit can become an uncertain amount of money and becomes the amount of gems you need for the item.
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davey1107✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Hanokihs Your math methodology is off because you compare the items won with crates to similar items bought with crowns. We actually have no idea of the actual cost of a crate cloud leopard Sench compared to a crown black panther sench. But we have to assume ZOS is using crates to charge more.
Regardless, your point is a good one because players should indeed be free to do the math, which means ZOS should have to publish odds on this garbage. If I want a specific item, I should be told what the chances are it'll come out of a crate. The fact that we aren't told odds means that people are right - this isn't gambling. It's stealing.2 -
Hanokihs✭✭✭✭✭necronomniconb14_ESO wrote: »Even the gamblers know it's gambling, and are okay with it, don't care or manage to have theirs under control. Many people set a limit on their gambling and do not go over it.
Just commenting because this statement stood out so much; it's very true and a valid comparison. Most gamblers have a bet ceiling, pocket their winnings, and quit when the initial investment hits $0. I wonder if more Crate buyers would feel less ripped-off if they bothered to count up the potential Crown cost of things they want and refrained from exceeding it when they buy the Crate packs.
Aye but we're talking about gambling in a game, in real life you bet money and you can win money, the majority of people are going in for a specific item and that will be their "bet ceiling."
The gem system that comes with these crates is a double edged sword. Sure, you're guaranteed to get the item you want but because you can buy it with gems you're gonna keep buying crates because you know eventually you'll get enough for the item even if you don't get it from a crate, your bet limit can become an uncertain amount of money and becomes the amount of gems you need for the item.
If you have no discipline, sure. I don't mind the crates, and always buy 75 because that's what I budget over three months to afford. I used to spend those Crowns on other items, but since most things I want have ended up tied to the Crates, that's where I now cash my currency.
I open all the crates, exchange my useless consumables for gems, and see what's left over from my wish list. If I have enough gems left, I buy all the things. If not, I start at what I want the most and move from there until I can't afford anything else. Actually, I do that latter thing anyway because I never trust my math. So far, I've been lucky enough to not run out of gems, but who knows? Maybe that'll change somewhere down the line. Statistically, it's probably very close to being a guaranteed fact.
It doesn't change the fact that, despite my fishing for specific items, I set a limit and stick to it. None of it seems like a ripoff, because obviously, there are no entitlements and no guarantees. I actually managed to screw myself out of a pulled apex wolf this last time, because I accidentally only bought 60 crates, and guess what popped out on my first draw of the last round.
I take it as a lesson to be more careful in the future, but it doesn't hinder my enjoyment beyond the initial sting. *shrug* Call me a rarity, I guess, for thinking the system is fine and the players are largely approaching it incorrectly. "I haven't really played much yet, but lemme tell you all about how the game should include X and be a lot more like Y!" - Half the posters on this forum."I've been here for years, and lemme tell you all about how they should never change or evolve Z, because then the game would be ruined forever." - The other half of posters on this forum.4 -
POps75p✭✭✭✭I have purchased many things for crowns, but will never purchase a crown crate. they will never be eliminated as it's there top Money Maker, so why fight it.
but I would hope that they would have dual pricing on items rather than gems only. unless they are trying to get rid of them on everything and only sell gambling crates1 -
Hanokihs✭✭✭✭✭@Hanokihs I don't understand the screwing yourself out of a wolf. If you'd gone in and bought more gems...whatever...could you have kept drawing? Or did running out in the middle erase that draw?
I thought I was done opening crates, but when I started buying things with gems, I noticed I had too many crowns left. I had intended to use 75 crates , just in case of lucky draws, but only used 60. Naturally it's cheaper to just pull the mount you want instead of getting it the alternate way, and when I started on my last set of 15, the first mount I pulled was the wolf I had just bought. Even though I got two other things I would have purchased with gems, that wolf card was a waste of 400."I haven't really played much yet, but lemme tell you all about how the game should include X and be a lot more like Y!" - Half the posters on this forum."I've been here for years, and lemme tell you all about how they should never change or evolve Z, because then the game would be ruined forever." - The other half of posters on this forum.2 -
Nerouyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Regardless, your point is a good one because players should indeed be free to do the math, which means ZOS should have to publish odds on this garbage. If I want a specific item, I should be told what the chances are it'll come out of a crate.
That will be law in China effective this year.
http://www.pcgamer.com/chinese-law-will-force-game-makers-to-reveal-loot-box-drop-rates/
ESO isn't playable in China though so they're unaffected by this. And as far as I'm aware, China is the only country to have such a law.0 -
CastaLyron✭✭I don't see what all the fuss is about. If you don't like it just don't use it. Some people seem to be enjoying it for some reason.
For me gambling is gambling. I wouldn't take a bet if I had no clue about the odds of winning.3 -
Stopnaggin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Being that black history month just pass I think it is appropriate here to quote MLK "There comes a time when silence is betrayal."
As OP has stated marketing is fair game but when marketing starts affecting the children someone has to speak up and put a stop to this.
Sometimes it all comes down to doing the right thing. People may say right and wrong is unclear but I think it's fairly clear in this situation and that is. DONT. MANIPULATE. CHILDREN.
This game has an ESRB rating of M 17+ and 17 year olds are still considered minors. So Zo$ either change the ratings or ensure minors don't get dragged in to this absolutely filthy business practice.
I know you guys are trying to make your quarterly reports look pretty hence the release of the wild hunt clown crates before the end of q1 and again with your planned release of the dwemmer crates before the end of q2 but let us please at least maintain a certain level of honor and ethics.
Don't fall off that horse. I've seen too many arguments, first it was those with addiction, now children. First off the game is rated mature 18+, nowhere is ZOS responsible for parenting. You want to debate about the morality of the crates that's fine, but stop bringing in the sympathy cards. I have kids, the play games that I deem fine, even ESO but they do not have access to a credit card of mine. I parent my kids, not the govt, not ZOS and not you.
Again we can debate the morality all day. And be civil about it. What I can not stand is bringing in things that have no bearing on a company descision. 18+ mature, if kids are playing that is on parents.6 -
davey1107✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Stopnaggin
1. While the entire game has a mature rating, most people understand it's just the social aspect that gets rated mature and that the rest of the game is fine for kids. So the argument that ESO could allow anything because it has that rating anyway is pretty lame. Also, The mature rating is for 16 and younger. But the legal gambling age is 21, so any argument about protecting 17-20 YOs is valid even under your logic.
2. Game and media ratings concern content. Gambling isn't content, it's a regulated activity, and any gambling laws supersede any ratings rules. A casino is required by law not to ensure that minors don't have access to gambling. It's not sufficient to simply post signs. In a court case, the same would almost certainly be found of online gambling. The argument isn't that crates violate the ratings system, it's that they violate gambling regulations.
3. People are free to base their arguments off their own individual values and beliefs. If someone holds the value that a just society protects children by highly regulating gambling, even in a video game, and believes that this system is contrary with current laws, those arguments aren't defeated just because you make ad hominem attacks, even if they're relatively civil. How you parent your kids is irrelevant, and while you do have the most say in this, society and government can and will step in to supersede you on some things.1 -
Stopnaggin✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Stopnaggin
1. While the entire game has a mature rating, most people understand it's just the social aspect that gets rated mature and that the rest of the game is fine for kids. So the argument that ESO could allow anything because it has that rating anyway is pretty lame. Also, The mature rating is for 16 and younger. But the legal gambling age is 21, so any argument about protecting 17-20 YOs is valid even under your logic.
2. Game and media ratings concern content. Gambling isn't content, it's a regulated activity, and any gambling laws supersede any ratings rules. A casino is required by law not to ensure that minors don't have access to gambling. It's not sufficient to simply post signs. In a court case, the same would almost certainly be found of online gambling. The argument isn't that crates violate the ratings system, it's that they violate gambling regulations.
3. People are free to base their arguments off their own individual values and beliefs. If someone holds the value that a just society protects children by highly regulating gambling, even in a video game, and believes that this system is contrary with current laws, those arguments aren't defeated just because you make ad hominem attacks, even if they're relatively civil. How you parent your kids is irrelevant, and while you do have the most say in this, society and government can and will step in to supersede you on some things.
No, if we want to argue the morality I am fine with that. Laws vary from state to state, regarding the welfare of children. When does the classification of children stop? I mean you have to be 21 to drink right? But a young person of 18 can join the military and handle weapons. So at which age to decide, again 16 year old getting charged as adults for crimes, so he can be held responsible for his actions at 16, but not when it comes to gambling or drinking.
Anyway not to distract from the original argument. I will debate with the morality if you like, but I will not use thinly veiled excuses to cover for what someone finds moraly wrong. Legally speaking gambling laws do not apply here. You aren't directly gambling with rlm, you are gambling with a virtual currency, even though that currency is paid for with rlm. Again wIlling to debate on that.
Crates are a sore subject for some, I'm fine with a flat debate. If you have a child that plays video games no matter the rating, do you leave your wallet open to them? I mean just about every game has some kind of additional items that can be bought. Forza car packs, GoW skins, Cod dlc etc. Where is the same outrage about those things? Again happy to debate that as well. But let's not pretend that the same few who weekly oppose the crates are on some moral crusade to save the children. Yes people have different values in society, and a voice to use to oppose whatever they like. But I will never expect society or a video game to teach my kids moral values. I have a 22, 20 and 14 year olds, all of them have been brought up with a set of standads I instilled in them. Again different subject.2 -
SydneyGrey✭✭✭✭✭
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I did something similar with the storm atronach crates. I wanted that mind shriven horse mount BADLY. I thought I was done buying crates and spent gems on it. A few weeks later I bought more crates and ... mind shriven horse pops up. LOL. Of course.... when I started on my last set of 15, the first mount I pulled was the wolf I had just bought. Even though I got two other things I would have purchased with gems, that wolf card was a waste of 400.
Edited by SydneyGrey on 10 March 2017 22:520 -
SydneyGrey✭✭✭✭✭
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Not where I live. The legal gambling age is 18 here. It's not 21 for every country, or even every state within the United States.But the legal gambling age is 21, so any argument about protecting 17-20 YOs is valid even under your logic.
Also, no kid under age 18 needs to have a credit card. Ever.
Edited by SydneyGrey on 10 March 2017 22:570
