Anhedonie wrote: »

You guys TOTALLY SUCK at complaining.
It took sorcs only a couple of days to revert nerf to curse. You've been whining about dragon blood for almost two years and devs fixed it just now and it took them several attempts. And there are a lot of issues left that are plagueing DKs like sustain problems and others. And not to mention that DK feedback has the biggest amount of pages of said feedback.
AND I MEAN IT CAN'T POSSIBLY BE THAT DEVELOPERS AREN'T LISTENING. IT'S JUST YOU SUCK AT COMPLAINING GUYS!

Valencer wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

With all this discussion about Stam DK, I would like to point out that they are okay in PvP and will be after the patch too. They are getting hit hard but in the end they will still be in a much better place Mag DK's in open world.

The problem is that they only are okay at PvP. By far my biggest gripe with the entire DK class is the lack of excelling at any one role.

Mag DK's in PvE = Average
Mag DK's in PvP = Terrible
Stam DK's in PvE = Not Magika
Stam DK's in PvP = Average

Let's compare that to Sorcs:

Mag Sorcs in PvE = God-Tier
Mag Sorcs in PvP = Really good
Stam Sorcs in PvE = Best Stam setup
Stam Sorcs in PvP = God-Tier

See the problem here? Can we just be good at one thing, please?

You've put it in a very simplistic way, but yes.

Stamina DKs (and magicka DKs) are pretty useless in actual Cyrodiil PvP. They dont have an use in PvP raids, and in small scale youll just be ignored while your friends get overwhelmed because you dont have the burst needed to actually be dangerous.

DKs are good at being tanky in a meta where everyone is tanky by just wearing heavy armour. Useless.

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@pieratsos
You don't seem to understand what people are getting it when it comes to Stam DK. First of all 10k Magicka is enough to gain access to your utilities that you'd use (two abilities maybe 3) since you're not consistently using magic it's fine. Secondly this class isn't about wearing heavy armor as it seems you're eluding to but you pointed out Inferno AoE; Why was that given to sorcerers whose passives benefit the DPS role so much?

Dks who play PvP rarely use Igneous weapons I mean make that's literally 4.5k without reduction if not 4.6k magicka lol. If you need Major brutality well you go to rally or flying dagger, heck even potions!

Take Flight is a garbage ultimate and was only used for being a unique ability that allows you to fly on to keeps, it's easily beaten by dawn breaker of smiting, onslaught, rend, arrow barrage,etc.

Venom Claw and Noxious breath are both DoTs which are very unfavorable in PvP as you can heal through them, shield through them, and purify/purge it.
Noxious breath is good for the debuff but try using that ability in a fight and watch it miss more than half the time even in close range. You can even watch Fengrush who was annoyed by how unreliable it is missing at close range.

Scales is unreliable AF and many people through-out this entire thread has even stated that it DOES NOT ALWAYS REFLECT. My goodness man look through the thread before posting every ability DKs have to know which functions correctly or not.

Dragon's blood still costs over 4.4k magicka without reductions and who would even bother to use that ability during a fight lol? Now you can only use igneous shield or fossilize instead of using both when needed, what happens if you use hardened armor and that goes down is that a "Oh well there it goes" moment for you?

Regarding Flames of Oblivion there is no need to make it poison damage or the other morph whatever you're saying. The ability just needs to scale off of Max resource/damage. I'm sure poison would be great for us but I'd rather cauterize go into a PBAoE Heal for those who want to heal on their Mag DK. Flames of Oblivion would also need to increase the damage done by DoT that are DK specific by X percent or increase some form of damage.

Lastly there is no synergy with Heavy armor and DK, the only thing that people love to say is the healing passive and the block passive (which is getting nerf'd or corrected since we weren't really receiving that amount to begin with lmao). The only passive that truly aligns with Stam DK as a tank would be the damaged blocked and that's it.

Stam sorcs abilities as you listed also benefit them with passives such as implosion, Power stone (reduce your ultimate cost), unholy knowledge (reduces cost of mag/stam), Energized, Expert Mage, and Capacitor. All these passives right there is what makes stam sorcs pretty good with whatever setup they tend to rock (PvP wise).


Stamblades/Stam sorcs feel unique because their class aids them in killing enemies and their abilities make it much easier to do so.

I do not follow the meta heck I even made a build video already that shows that I do not follow the meta I wear 5 Medium 2 Heavy no proc sets just maelstrom weapons (2H/bow although the bow is currently a decisive masters bow). I wear 5 Hunding + 5 Automaton. The reason why we do not feel unique is because every other class has something that benefits them completely while also benefiting group play (PvE) while Stam DKs don't have anything other than a passive that buffs minor brutality for everyone + Magma shell. We want to provide AoEs, we want to buff our allies, and we want to have skills that are fun to use instead of relying on 90% weapon skills/ultimates.

You are the one who doesnt seem to get it. So go and read again the last paragraph i wrote. All you do is explaining how each ability isnt good because it doesnt work with the meta but this is the exact thing that i said. The design of the DK doesnt work well with current state of PVP and is certainly not working well with ur build. Just because DOTs are not the meta it doesnt mean they are useless as abilities. They just dont work well in this current state of PVP. I told you make inferno a stamDK tool with secondary effects that help the DK playstyle like buff dots. But its still not going to be useful on a 2h/bow medium build that relies on burst and mobility cause simply the class isnt designed for that. And all classes use dawnbreaker. Enough with this.
And enough with this crap about abilities being useless cause they cost a ton of magicka for ur medium armor stambuild with no magicka sustain. This is not an argument. This applies for ALL classes. Streak costs even more magicka. Does that make it useless? Do you really believe that only DK abilities cost a lot and for every other stamina class their utility abilities are free? Like seriously? Go play a medium armor stamsorc with 10k magicka and tell me how many times you can streak before running out of magicka. If you want to have more utility from magicka abilities put on heavy armor or use drinks.
Just because you dont follow the meta it doesnt mean that the class should be balanced around ur build. You have utility abilities in ur class. Major mending, armor buffs, dots, passives for healing, abilities for healing, passives for snares, blocking, resistances, sustain. Do they need help? Sure they do. I said it myself and inferno will help with that. But its obvious that the class isnt designed for a bursty 2h/bow medium armor build. So dont expect the class that is designed around DOTs and taking dmg to help you with a build designed around burst and mobility. You want to play like that then reroll a stamblade or stamsorc that will help with that. What exactly did u expect when u made a medium armor 2h/bow build with zero magicka sustain? Of course you are not gonna have a use for most abilities and passives of the DK class on a build like that. Thats ur fault.

I think you dont get the real problem of DK. Our passives are crap, so any attempt to be consistent with dots or without them will lead you to a dead end with a sword and a shield hunging in the wall.

Have a look at the ardent flame passives and then look ate the other classes passives: each one of those classes has a form of getting minor buffs by using their skills. DKs? An increase in the poison/fire status. And the status ticks for like 300 dmg points. An increase in the duration of the skills, and increase in the dmg of AoE poison and flame skills (which pigeonhole you into useing a flame staff orn a bow)

Have you seen how much does surge cost? Do you know what it does? Do you know that sorcs have a 5% cost reduction in all their skills? And that, just for slotting surge sorcs get 2% extra wpn and spell dmg? Sorcs passives are so good that you can even make a hybrid without using Pelinals.

So, basically when you say that DKs have tools , you are correct, we have screwdrivers and hammers and pliers.... neverthelss, you must do a surgery with that and that's not fair.

I literally said that the DK as a class could use some tweaks to help the playstyle and make the class abilities and passives more relevant in this current state of PVP and i also suggested a buff to stamDK even tho they do actually perform very good in prety much every aspect of PVP. So what exactly is ur problem again? Do DKs have useless passives? Sure they do. But all classes have useless passives. Do you know that stam sorcs have an entire skill line with useless abilities? Do you know that sorcs also have a very good passive that they cant even utilize cause its in the stupid pet skill line and the only thing "worth" slotting from that tree is a toggle? Do you know that the stam sorc passives u mentioned with the addition of implosion , ult cost reduction and increased physical dmg are the only passives they can use? We are talking about half of their passives being useless. All you do here is pointing out the useless DK passives and the good stam sorc passives as this somehow represents the whole picture and making it sound as if stamDK are useless in PVP. Its just two completely different classes. Stam DKs dont feel unique anymore cause of this stupid meta where everyone has everything by using broken sets and potions. That doesnt mean that stamDKs are bad in PVP. They perform very well in every aspect of PVP.

And what's the use a Tank DK can make of the ardent flame passives?

Tell me, a passive that increases your health regen is a good one? A passive that gives you 2.6k spell res I suppose is great for magDKs running shields, or the passive that force you to pay at least 3050 k magicka to get 1750 stam... that's a great passive that gives you 5250 stam for depleting your magicka pool.

I know all classes have uselss passive, but no other class has only 4 or 5 useful passives for each playing style. If you go full dmg, you lose the mitigation passive, if you go full defensive, you lose the entire ardent flame line. If you are ranged stam (bow) and don't like to spend your magica otherwise magelight, you lose the entire mountain blessing line, including the helping hands passive.

Anyway, I wonder, have you ever played a DK, or your opinion comes from the theoretical approach? Because in theory I can build a beast of a DK

I didnt say DK have the best passives. But you guys just flat out said that basically all the abilities and passives are completely useless and all stam sorcs passives are good. Thats just not the truth. Stam sorcs also have 5 good passives. Every other passive is useless. And just like ur DK tank doesnt benefit from ur ardent flame passives the same way a sorc tank doesnt benefit from their dmg passives. Besides the ardent flame which i specifically said that will get better with a potential change to inferno buffing dots the other 2 skill lines have good passives for DKs. Block, healing, resistances. Are they the best? No. But they are not useless. The only flat out useless DK passive is elder dragon and it needs to be buffed by a lot or replaced by something else entirely. Earthern heart has battle roar, mountains blessing, eternal mountain and helping hands. They are all good. And yes helping hands is a very good passive. Stam DKs in PVP rely on that passive alone to sustain and they do it prety damn good. You are trying to say that ur passives are not good cause u cant utilize all of them in every situation but the fact is that this applies for all classes. There is not a single class that benefits from all their passives at every single situation.

Stam DKs in PVP rely on that passive alone to sustain and they do it prety damn good

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

With all this discussion about Stam DK, I would like to point out that they are okay in PvP and will be after the patch too. They are getting hit hard but in the end they will still be in a much better place Mag DK's in open world.

The problem is that they only are okay at PvP. By far my biggest gripe with the entire DK class is the lack of excelling at any one role.

Mag DK's in PvE = Average
Mag DK's in PvP = Terrible
Stam DK's in PvE = Not Magika
Stam DK's in PvP = Average

Let's compare that to Sorcs:

Mag Sorcs in PvE = God-Tier
Mag Sorcs in PvP = Really good
Stam Sorcs in PvE = Best Stam setup
Stam Sorcs in PvP = God-Tier

See the problem here? Can we just be good at one thing, please?

You've put it in a very simplistic way, but yes.

Stamina DKs (and magicka DKs) are pretty useless in actual Cyrodiil PvP. They dont have an use in PvP raids, and in small scale youll just be ignored while your friends get overwhelmed because you dont have the burst needed to actually be dangerous.

DKs are good at being tanky in a meta where everyone is tanky by just wearing heavy armour. Useless.

What? Fighting a good strong stam dk / mag dk is one of the most scary things in Cyrodill.

Ikr...

Kilandros wrote: »

Riggsy wrote: »

PandaIsAPotato wrote: »

As someone who mained Stam DK after they butchered Mag DK, it doesn't need to feel unique, it has everything in it's toolkit to preform perfectly fine in any situation in PvP. The class itself still needs to be tweaked though, and that in turn could help you, I would also prefer the poison crap to be reverted to flame but asking for straight Stam DK buffs is not the way to go, ask for buffs to the base class, regardless of what spec you play.

Doesnt need to feel unique, really? Then why does every other class get their unique functions? Seriously, absent 3 abilities many stamDK players run non-class skills. Moreover, that "toolkit" is not class based but founded on Vitality pots, malubeth and other sets. And revert to flame? So CP points spent for physical/poison would be useless and require splitting=less damage.The proper solution would be more morphs that cater to stam builds along with reworking the high mag costs for magDKs.

This just isn't true. Maybe if you took the time to play Stam DK without cheese sets like Tumorscale you'd be able to see that the Stam DK toolkit (Battle Roar, Major Mending, Minor Brutality, Minor Vitality, just to name a few) is actually quite good. But, that would require you to actually play the class and not just rely on the procs to play for you. Yes, I recognize your name from TF. You run a cancer build - of course you don't appreciate Stam DK's potential because you spam Puncture and hold block all day. I'd be bored too.

I'm guessing you want Stam DK to be the next OP FoTM class like Stam Sorc that just totally relies on various proc abilities while having infinite sustain without compromising damage. No thanks.

Sorry but I just had to ooouuuuch!

MaxwellC wrote: »

@thankyourat
See I don't play heavy armor but I run 5 medium 2 heavy as a redguard I also run max health/stam regen food. I run out of resources sitting at just almost 1400 regen so I wish I could speak to some of the DKs you've faced who some how never run out of sustain. I'm consistently having sustain issues the only time I never had it PvP wise is when I used my old build which gave me just about 2000 stamina regen; With that amount of regen I wasn't having issues at all but I'd still run out of stamina if the fight progressed too long.

Maybe you're confusing the class with a stam sorc ? Dark deal a couple times and you're all set, not like they need to use max health/regen food anyway.

Chadwikid wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Wana your beloved class to be great - do something worth for it, beside wining,

It was put together with the help of all of the remaining PvP mDk's, myself included, the most vocal and visible and probably one of if not the best, mDK left in the game.

Valencer wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

With all this discussion about Stam DK, I would like to point out that they are okay in PvP and will be after the patch too. They are getting hit hard but in the end they will still be in a much better place Mag DK's in open world.

The problem is that they only are okay at PvP. By far my biggest gripe with the entire DK class is the lack of excelling at any one role.

Mag DK's in PvE = Average
Mag DK's in PvP = Terrible
Stam DK's in PvE = Not Magika
Stam DK's in PvP = Average

Let's compare that to Sorcs:

Mag Sorcs in PvE = God-Tier
Mag Sorcs in PvP = Really good
Stam Sorcs in PvE = Best Stam setup
Stam Sorcs in PvP = God-Tier

See the problem here? Can we just be good at one thing, please?

You've put it in a very simplistic way, but yes.

Stamina DKs (and magicka DKs) are pretty useless in actual Cyrodiil PvP. They dont have an use in PvP raids, and in small scale youll just be ignored while your friends get overwhelmed because you dont have the burst needed to actually be dangerous.

DKs are good at being tanky in a meta where everyone is tanky by just wearing heavy armour. Useless.

What? Fighting a good strong stam dk / mag dk is one of the most scary things in Cyrodill.

Why? because you cant kill them easily?

In between the lack of reliable hard CCs and built-in burst that DK is going to have just as much of a hard time killing you. Youre 10x better off playing a stamblade if you want to actually kill people, and if you want to be tanky just play a magicka templar because then you can actually do something useful, like healing allies.

Ive had 2 meta black rose+selene stam DKs whack away at me for ages without a sweat. Meanwhile 1 stamblade can actually do really good timed burst - proc sets, incap strike and fear - and that's gotten the better of me at least once or twice that I can remember.

Magicka DK might be slightly better than stamina DK with the next update because of the whip damage increase, reliable self-heal (only took them 1.5 years) and the fact proc sets like selene and viper are taking a hit. Jury's still out on that one though

Spell res passive is useful no matter how you look at it for both stamDK and mDK. Im not exactly sure if u know how that passive or resistances in general work. Major and minor resistance buffs have nothing to do with that passive. They stack. And it also doesnt matter if u are a mDK or stamDK. You need both physical and spell resistances. Physical resistance will mitigate the incoming dmg from stamina attacks and spell resistance will mitigate the incoming dmg from magicka attacks. You need both. That passive is extra mitigation for both stam DKs and mDK. Is it the best? Like i said no. But its certainly not useless. Its still 4-5% spell dmg mitigation or something close to that.

The blocking passive helps u block more dmg. How is this not useful for DKs? Snb builds are the most common builds u see in cyro for both mDK and stamDK.

Helping hands is a very good passive to sustain ur stamina for stamDK so yes im gonna say it again. Thats not my imagination. Thats a fact. Its happening in cyrodiil. Stam DKs are running around with 600-700 regen and sustain fine. They use igneous shield to get major mending and stamina back.

Mountains blessing gives ult and minor brutality. Minor brutality is 5% wpn dmg. How the hell isnt that a good passive for stam DK? Also the fact that u are comparing minor brutality with sorc dmg passive and that u are complaining why it doesnt help ur mDK shows that u dont play any other class other than DK therefore its difficult for you to understand class balance. There are 4 different minor buffs. Each class has one. DKs have minor brutality which is useless to mDK. Sorcs have minor prophecy which is useless to stam sorcs. Templars have minor sorcery which is useless to stamplars. Nightblades have minor savagery which is useless to magicka nightblades. Those buffs are applied also to ur group not just urself. Its a way to incentivize having all four classes in a group. Class balance.

Battle roar is good. I know that it was designed with dynamic ult regen in mind but its still a good passive. And i also said im not against buffing the DK ult regen. But u cant buff the crap out of ult regen just because that passive was designed around that. It has to be implemented smartly if its going to happen. StamDK are already good in PVP. Buffing ult regen for DK can have a huge impact on class balance. Seriously people are asking to buff helping hands, battle roar and ult regen. Like really? That just means infinite sustain which leads to huge dmg. DKs will be completely overpowered. Can we please think about the possible consequences before asking for buffs all over the place?

No one is forcing you to use heavy armor. If you feel like ur pigeonhold into using heavy armor to utilize helping hands then u dont understand game mechanics and how light, medium and heavy armor works. Stam sorcs cant streak if they dont have magicka sustain. Stamblades cant cloak, fear etc if they dont have magicka sustain. Stamplars cant purge if they dont have magicka sustain. That doesnt mean they are all forced into heavy armor. Its how utility abilities works. You put on heavy armor, u have magicka sustain and u use ur utility abilities more frequently. If u are playing in medium armor you are not supposed to rely on utility abilities to sustain ur stamina. Thats why medium armor gives you cost reduction and regen. Does that mean medium armor is better than heavy? No. But thats an issue with the balance of light, medium and heavy armor. Not with the DK.

Is heavy armor useful for DKs? Yeah obviously. The class is designed to be more tanky. Its obvious from the passives and abilities. Block more dmg, more healing, more resistances, major mending, healing buffs. Dont wonder why ur passives do not give u the same dmg as the stam sorc or stamblade passives. Its two completely different classes. Thats like a stam sorc or stamblade complaining about not having major mending and defensive passives in general. Stop asking for a class overhaul just because you want more dmg. If you want more offensive passives and abilities u are playing the wrong class.

You asked me in a different post if im playing a DK. Im playing all four classes and my main is a DK. I understand how each class is designed and their issues. The problem is that u dont play anything else other than a DK so its difficult for you to understand class balance. You seem to think that every class in the game has everything except the class you play. Your complaint about minor brutality being useless to ur mDK and the comparison u made with sorc dmg passives clearly shows that.

Armitas wrote: »

PTS wrap up.

ZOS

The update to dragonblood was good, I'm very pleased with it. Even though our sustain issues didn't make it to this update we have made several steps forward. But unfortunately there is still one very large step backwards and that is the nerf to reflect. Revert that nerf and this update will be a success despite the things you couldn't get to this time. However if you leave the nerf in then this long anticipated update will be highly disputable as a success. The change to reflect crushes our viability against other magic classes in a way that dragonblood may not compensate for.

Make this update a win and revert the reflect nerf.

(I suggest everyone wrap up their feedback for what must happen before this goes live in a few days.)

MaxwellC wrote: »

@thankyourat
See I don't play heavy armor but I run 5 medium 2 heavy as a redguard I also run max health/stam regen food. I run out of resources sitting at just almost 1400 regen so I wish I could speak to some of the DKs you've faced who some how never run out of sustain. I'm consistently having sustain issues the only time I never had it PvP wise is when I used my old build which gave me just about 2000 stamina regen; With that amount of regen I wasn't having issues at all but I'd still run out of stamina if the fight progressed too long.

Maybe you're confusing the class with a stam sorc ? Dark deal a couple times and you're all set, not like they need to use max health/regen food anyway.