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Upcoming PvP Re-Balance / List of Broken Stuff
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Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I disagree. I think that one way DPS is so high is that sustain is so infinite. I would prefer to reduce sustain and that would force DPS to lower.
Which would result in fights not ending because sustain would still be infinite (which it always has been since 1.2 introduced 5p sets and 1.3 the new regen caps).
Also do people actually remember how fast people died in the beginning of this game? Three whips and most ppl were toast.
Yeah, but at the beginning of the game people weren't max level.
RE: infinite sustain. Yes it has existed since 1.3. But players were forced to give up damage to get it. That doesn't happen now.
@Ishammael considering you´re also advocating to have softcaps back in the game.
Back then i was overcapped on magica reg. Overcapped on magica. Softcap on stamina. Softcap on Spelldmg. Softcap on stamreg.
While wearing two sustain sets.
I did not give up anything. Literally nothing. I was softcapped on one and overcapped on the other dmg stat.
In fact i am now more forced/inclined to give up dmg than i was in 1.3 to 1.5 because now i have an actual choice. I have to find a working build for my playstyle providing me with the minimum regeneration needed to get out of all sticky situations while also providing as much dmg as possible.
In the current patch for the first time in ESO i have a plenthora of vaible sets to choose from as a magica builds (i don´t say sets are perfectly balanced at the moment mind you - but finally you can make reasonable choices).
Imo the only thing that needs adressing are utility sets: Why do i get major expedition for 30s only after drinking a potion - yet there are other sets providing permanent major sorcery/prophecy etc.
I really, from the bottom of my heart, do not want to go back to the "you either use seducer/archmage/magnus or you´re build is crap" meta (because thats essentially what it was - there was no tradeoff or choice it was sustain sets as alpha and omega when making a build).
It wasn´t as much the dmg to health ratio that made people live longer back then - no it was permablock on all and every build with s&b. If you did not run s&b back then you ran the risk of dying just as fast as you´re now (and it happened).
If we dont have soft caps then we need more stats like healing power and utility power.
Healing power should increase all heals and utility power should increase the damage shields, dodged attacks per dodge, block damage amount, speed, etc.Because I can!1 -
pcar944✭✭✭✭omfgitsbatman wrote: »incognito222 wrote: »Not sure if someone said this already. Going to say it again to make sure.
Being in mist form does not render you immune to snares.
so much of this
This is not true. Being in mist form does make you immune to snares. HOWEVER every time someone gap-closes on you, the automatic lock-on mechanic (which is silly) stops you fully for about a second, making getting away nay impossible
and when you get 3-4 people gap closing there is literally nothing you can do, I've died to this so many times I stopped using it at the moment, its still very good skill thoughOne Tamriel killed PVP
DC Magicka Orc Necromancer climbing those ranks ...0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I disagree. I think that one way DPS is so high is that sustain is so infinite. I would prefer to reduce sustain and that would force DPS to lower.
Which would result in fights not ending because sustain would still be infinite (which it always has been since 1.2 introduced 5p sets and 1.3 the new regen caps).
Also do people actually remember how fast people died in the beginning of this game? Three whips and most ppl were toast.
Yeah, but at the beginning of the game people weren't max level.
RE: infinite sustain. Yes it has existed since 1.3. But players were forced to give up damage to get it. That doesn't happen now.
@Ishammael considering you´re also advocating to have softcaps back in the game.
Back then i was overcapped on magica reg. Overcapped on magica. Softcap on stamina. Softcap on Spelldmg. Softcap on stamreg.
While wearing two sustain sets.
I did not give up anything. Literally nothing. I was softcapped on one and overcapped on the other dmg stat.
In fact i am now more forced/inclined to give up dmg than i was in 1.3 to 1.5 because now i have an actual choice. I have to find a working build for my playstyle providing me with the minimum regeneration needed to get out of all sticky situations while also providing as much dmg as possible.
In the current patch for the first time in ESO i have a plenthora of vaible sets to choose from as a magica builds (i don´t say sets are perfectly balanced at the moment mind you - but finally you can make reasonable choices).
Imo the only thing that needs adressing are utility sets: Why do i get major expedition for 30s only after drinking a potion - yet there are other sets providing permanent major sorcery/prophecy etc.
I really, from the bottom of my heart, do not want to go back to the "you either use seducer/archmage/magnus or you´re build is crap" meta (because thats essentially what it was - there was no tradeoff or choice it was sustain sets as alpha and omega when making a build).
It wasn´t as much the dmg to health ratio that made people live longer back then - no it was permablock on all and every build with s&b. If you did not run s&b back then you ran the risk of dying just as fast as you´re now (and it happened).
If we dont have soft caps then we need more stats like healing power and utility power.
Healing power should increase all heals and utility power should increase the damage shields, dodged attacks per dodge, block damage amount, speed, etc.
Problem with this approach would be the necessary pve rebalancing.
I don´t think adding/altering mechanics and stats is a good idea. The game isn´t as broken as people make it out to be. It just needs constant tweaks every 4 weeks at least.
Also i´m still a strong advocator of having harness not stack with hardened ward and altering healing ward to provide 100% more heal than it does currently while reducing the shieldsize by 50% to adress the ongoing problem with stacking shields.
For heals all it would take would be a magica accessible healing debuff.
Then make sneak either not increase dmg OR remove the sneak stun for pvp.
Fix proccs (i´m more in favor of a gcd instead of converting them to dots).
Make destro ulti block the use of teleport and gapclosers.
Make root = 100% snare and implement an immunity similar to normal cc (on a different cooldown).
Do something about camps and respawning /porting in pvp (so many ideas here but whatever).
As far as general changes go...
Edited by Derra on 12 December 2016 10:21<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 503 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
Healing can be nerfed a little bit (20% seems reasonable) to force people invest into Blessed if they want to have reliable heal, in current state it's pointless to invest more than 10 point into itIf we dont have soft caps then we need more stats like healing power and utility power.
Healing power should increase all heals and utility power should increase the damage shields, dodged attacks per dodge, block damage amount, speed, etc.0 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Just got yesterday bug when Incap strike stunned me while in mistform, resulting that I was unable to move, unable to CC break, unable to cancel mist channel. Was just staying there waiting till stun ends.0 -
Docmandu✭✭✭✭✭
✭3. Lag -- worse than it has ever been. Players and zergs have got to be steered away from keeps and major choke points
Performance before 1T was quite decent. It took a dive with 1T, maybe it's the new effects, or maybe just more people due to the free play weekend (although, before 1T we also had pop locked campaigns).
One fix that might help would be to put the resource flag on the top of the towers.. would get rid of the 40+ emp groups standing in the tower charging destro ultis.. since with the flag on top, the resource won't be capped and it would make it possible to treb down the tower if there's yet another farm ball inside of it.
Trying to get people to ignore the ball is impossible.. and if people would ever ignore, they'd just keep taking resources and cutting ports until they're in front of the scroll walls.
Having 40+ people with destro ultis on a small radius sure isn't going to help the server keep up with the load.
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Docmandu✭✭✭✭✭
✭.Stratforge wrote: »In the spirit of one (last) gasp at PvP balance -- which we know is incoming 1st Quarter or so -- lets brainstorm for @Wrobel a good list of things to be worked on. Post the problem and a suggestion for how to fix it. These can be specific balance changes (like Proc Sets) or overall gameplay changes
I'll try to keep the top of the thread updated with good suggestions
I'll start with just a few
1. Proc Sets -- probably need a global cooldown to enforce players to use only one. Remove the RNG element.
Proc sets are a problem but this wouldn't fix them. It's that the damage is too high and instant. If those problems were handled, it wouldn't matter if someone stacked widowmaker, viper, veli or whatever.
Overall I agree with the problems you identified.
Make procs non-critable and put a global cooldown on them... and just do it in Cyrodiil, so we don't get the PvE guys rant about how PvP destroys everything they like about the game.
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Docmandu✭✭✭✭✭
✭- Fix toppling charge... has been tried at least 2-3 times already, still doesn't work AT ALL. Maybe this time they will succeed?! If not, just redesign the skill.. it's pretty useless.. mostly deadly for the templar himself as the chance it will lock up your skill is quite high.. and if the ping is even a bit above average, the skill will be very sh.tty to use.
- Fix in-combat issue (LOL, like that will ever happen before 2030)
- Fix skill that don't go off, yet do use up your magicka (ie. Honor of The Dead regularly doesn't cast at all, not on yourself, not on anybody, yet does use up magicka -- most likely other skills with the same issue)
Edited by Docmandu on 12 December 2016 11:341 -
incognito222✭✭✭incognito222 wrote: »omfgitsbatman wrote: »incognito222 wrote: »Not sure if someone said this already. Going to say it again to make sure.
Being in mist form does not render you immune to snares.
so much of this
This is not true. Being in mist form does make you immune to snares. HOWEVER every time someone gap-closes on you, the automatic lock-on mechanic (which is silly) stops you fully for about a second, making getting away nay impossible
Was two seconds in mist form, enemy tremorscale procced and I was snared for the remaining duration of mist form. Enemy did not apply gap closer.
wait until you get incapped in mistform and stunned effectively not able to move nor stop the channel of mistform to break free
I agree ... hopefully ZOS reads the discussion and makes appropriate fixes in the next patch update.* Playing from Indonesia *0 -
Yuke✭✭✭✭✭Fix Dragon Fire Scale aka Reflect.
Fix Mistform and Forward Momentum Snare/Root Immunity.
Dont care about the rest as long as i have Templars in grp and if there is none available i dont play.
Oh, yeah, and fix lag. lol.0 -
Skitttles✭✭✭✭Let's remove all these snares and immobilizers and gap closer brick wall face plant. ffs I can't move anywhere.Skittles | DC Stem Sok and sumtimes Nertbled5 -
Kutsuu✭✭✭✭✭Implosion, broken??? Pick one. A 3% chance to to 15k dmg when under 15% health. Please enlighten me how this is an issue in PvP?? hint: it isnt´t, storm skilline (or whatever it´s called) is one of the most well-designed skillines in the game, no need for chances here.
It's really annoying dying to someone who is running from you lol. I won't say it's broken but then again rarely do I fight Stan sorcs that aren't just a carbon copy of every other stam 1 hit wonder
Why the heck are you chasing someone while you have less than 15% health? Seriously Implosion is rare enough that it's just an "every once in a while" thing and you're going to be executed by one of half a dozen very potent executes if you're below 15% health regardless.
This is a serious L2P issue - either put complete focus in recovering your health if you've hit 15%, or resign to dying to execute damage. Don't blame your death on Implosion.Edited by Kutsuu on 12 December 2016 12:45PC/NA
Envy Me - Sorc
Kutsus - NB
Kutsmuffin - Temp
Kutsuu the Destroyer - NB
Kutsuu - Temp
Natsu Dragoneel - DK
Kutsumo - NB1 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
Rare enough? It's almost 100% uptime.Implosion, broken??? Pick one. A 3% chance to to 15k dmg when under 15% health. Please enlighten me how this is an issue in PvP?? hint: it isnt´t, storm skilline (or whatever it´s called) is one of the most well-designed skillines in the game, no need for chances here.
It's really annoying dying to someone who is running from you lol. I won't say it's broken but then again rarely do I fight Stan sorcs that aren't just a carbon copy of every other stam 1 hit wonder
Why the heck are you chasing someone while you have less than 15% health? Seriously Implosion is rare enough that it's just an "every once in a while" thing and you're going to be executed by one of half a dozen very potent executes if you're below 15% health regardless.
This is a serious L2P issue - either put complete focus in recovering your health if you've hit 15%, or resign to dying to execute damage. Don't blame your death on Implosion.
5 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I disagree. I think that one way DPS is so high is that sustain is so infinite. I would prefer to reduce sustain and that would force DPS to lower.
Which would result in fights not ending because sustain would still be infinite (which it always has been since 1.2 introduced 5p sets and 1.3 the new regen caps).
Also do people actually remember how fast people died in the beginning of this game? Three whips and most ppl were toast.
Yeah, but at the beginning of the game people weren't max level.
RE: infinite sustain. Yes it has existed since 1.3. But players were forced to give up damage to get it. That doesn't happen now.
@Ishammael considering you´re also advocating to have softcaps back in the game.
Back then i was overcapped on magica reg. Overcapped on magica. Softcap on stamina. Softcap on Spelldmg. Softcap on stamreg.
While wearing two sustain sets.
I did not give up anything. Literally nothing. I was softcapped on one and overcapped on the other dmg stat.
In fact i am now more forced/inclined to give up dmg than i was in 1.3 to 1.5 because now i have an actual choice. I have to find a working build for my playstyle providing me with the minimum regeneration needed to get out of all sticky situations while also providing as much dmg as possible.
In the current patch for the first time in ESO i have a plenthora of vaible sets to choose from as a magica builds (i don´t say sets are perfectly balanced at the moment mind you - but finally you can make reasonable choices).
Imo the only thing that needs adressing are utility sets: Why do i get major expedition for 30s only after drinking a potion - yet there are other sets providing permanent major sorcery/prophecy etc.
I really, from the bottom of my heart, do not want to go back to the "you either use seducer/archmage/magnus or you´re build is crap" meta (because thats essentially what it was - there was no tradeoff or choice it was sustain sets as alpha and omega when making a build).
It wasn´t as much the dmg to health ratio that made people live longer back then - no it was permablock on all and every build with s&b. If you did not run s&b back then you ran the risk of dying just as fast as you´re now (and it happened).
Yes, you may have hit softcaps... but you didn't have the same absolute damage or regen.
Regardless, its impossible to compare stats now to then. Very much an apples vs oranges thing.
Agreed that there are more choices now, but at the same time there are even more non-viable choices exactly because they can't compete w/o soft caps. Look, I'm not saying soft caps are a the silver bullet but I think some similar mechanism needs to be considered. The power creep has been steadily marching with every patch.0 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I disagree. I think that one way DPS is so high is that sustain is so infinite. I would prefer to reduce sustain and that would force DPS to lower.
Which would result in fights not ending because sustain would still be infinite (which it always has been since 1.2 introduced 5p sets and 1.3 the new regen caps).
Also do people actually remember how fast people died in the beginning of this game? Three whips and most ppl were toast.
Yeah, but at the beginning of the game people weren't max level.
RE: infinite sustain. Yes it has existed since 1.3. But players were forced to give up damage to get it. That doesn't happen now.
@Ishammael considering you´re also advocating to have softcaps back in the game.
Back then i was overcapped on magica reg. Overcapped on magica. Softcap on stamina. Softcap on Spelldmg. Softcap on stamreg.
While wearing two sustain sets.
I did not give up anything. Literally nothing. I was softcapped on one and overcapped on the other dmg stat.
In fact i am now more forced/inclined to give up dmg than i was in 1.3 to 1.5 because now i have an actual choice. I have to find a working build for my playstyle providing me with the minimum regeneration needed to get out of all sticky situations while also providing as much dmg as possible.
In the current patch for the first time in ESO i have a plenthora of vaible sets to choose from as a magica builds (i don´t say sets are perfectly balanced at the moment mind you - but finally you can make reasonable choices).
Imo the only thing that needs adressing are utility sets: Why do i get major expedition for 30s only after drinking a potion - yet there are other sets providing permanent major sorcery/prophecy etc.
I really, from the bottom of my heart, do not want to go back to the "you either use seducer/archmage/magnus or you´re build is crap" meta (because thats essentially what it was - there was no tradeoff or choice it was sustain sets as alpha and omega when making a build).
It wasn´t as much the dmg to health ratio that made people live longer back then - no it was permablock on all and every build with s&b. If you did not run s&b back then you ran the risk of dying just as fast as you´re now (and it happened).
Yes, you may have hit softcaps... but you didn't have the same absolute damage or regen.
Regardless, its impossible to compare stats now to then. Very much an apples vs oranges thing.
Agreed that there are more choices now, but at the same time there are even more non-viable choices exactly because they can't compete w/o soft caps. Look, I'm not saying soft caps are a the silver bullet but I think some similar mechanism needs to be considered. The power creep has been steadily marching with every patch.
Yeah, I still think instead of explicit softcaps we need more diminishing returns. I recently suggested applying a 50% Battle Spirit reduction to the effects of the incremental CP stars while in Cyrodiil but the idea/thread didn't gain much traction.
People keep saying they want soft caps back but I doubt they really do. The soft cap mechanic as it existed previously was garbage and not well designed (big surprise right?).0 -
visionality✭✭✭✭✭7. Unblockable -- shouldn't be a thing. Dawnbreaker, Eye of the Storm, Fear, Petrify, etc. No skillful counter is horrible. Please make meteor reflectable again!
Abilities that go through block are the counters to block. DOTs can be countered in other ways. Super tanky builds are at least as great an issue as proc builds.
Agreed, there has to be some way to take out cancertanks and healbots.
I'm all in for reintroducing skills like reflect, block or purge/cloak against ultis, but not if Zenimax continues to allow the current heavy-armor-metas which gives almost unlimited survivability on top of considerable damage or heals. (I have no problem at all with unkillable tanks in general, they are very helpful to charge ultis
- it's just the combination unkillable-and-dps or unkillable-and-healbot that makes me want to throw up) 0 -
visionality✭✭✭✭✭Added: And I would like to have some feature like the plague introduced to Cyrodiil. Whenever more than 40 ppl stack up in one keep or outpost or gate, they start to infect each other with some nasty disease that reduces health, heals and damage.
I think the infective poison circles from SO would be a nice example.
Edited by visionality on 12 December 2016 14:035 -
pattyLtd✭✭✭✭✭visionality wrote: »Added: And I would like to have some feature like the plague introduced to Cyrodiil. Whenever more than 40 ppl stack up in one keep or outpost or gate, they start to infect each other with some nasty disease that reduces health, heals and damage.
I think the infective poison circles from SO would be a nice example.
Haha, i like the creative solution of that thought
But that lag though, theres enough of it already in cyrodiil without the SO circles stacking on 40 ppl xDEnglish is not my native language, no grammar police please, tyvm0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I disagree. I think that one way DPS is so high is that sustain is so infinite. I would prefer to reduce sustain and that would force DPS to lower.
Which would result in fights not ending because sustain would still be infinite (which it always has been since 1.2 introduced 5p sets and 1.3 the new regen caps).
Also do people actually remember how fast people died in the beginning of this game? Three whips and most ppl were toast.
Yeah, but at the beginning of the game people weren't max level.
RE: infinite sustain. Yes it has existed since 1.3. But players were forced to give up damage to get it. That doesn't happen now.
@Ishammael considering you´re also advocating to have softcaps back in the game.
Back then i was overcapped on magica reg. Overcapped on magica. Softcap on stamina. Softcap on Spelldmg. Softcap on stamreg.
While wearing two sustain sets.
I did not give up anything. Literally nothing. I was softcapped on one and overcapped on the other dmg stat.
In fact i am now more forced/inclined to give up dmg than i was in 1.3 to 1.5 because now i have an actual choice. I have to find a working build for my playstyle providing me with the minimum regeneration needed to get out of all sticky situations while also providing as much dmg as possible.
In the current patch for the first time in ESO i have a plenthora of vaible sets to choose from as a magica builds (i don´t say sets are perfectly balanced at the moment mind you - but finally you can make reasonable choices).
Imo the only thing that needs adressing are utility sets: Why do i get major expedition for 30s only after drinking a potion - yet there are other sets providing permanent major sorcery/prophecy etc.
I really, from the bottom of my heart, do not want to go back to the "you either use seducer/archmage/magnus or you´re build is crap" meta (because thats essentially what it was - there was no tradeoff or choice it was sustain sets as alpha and omega when making a build).
It wasn´t as much the dmg to health ratio that made people live longer back then - no it was permablock on all and every build with s&b. If you did not run s&b back then you ran the risk of dying just as fast as you´re now (and it happened).
Yes, you may have hit softcaps... but you didn't have the same absolute damage or regen.
Regardless, its impossible to compare stats now to then. Very much an apples vs oranges thing.
Agreed that there are more choices now, but at the same time there are even more non-viable choices exactly because they can't compete w/o soft caps. Look, I'm not saying soft caps are a the silver bullet but I think some similar mechanism needs to be considered. The power creep has been steadily marching with every patch.
Indeed i did not have the same absolute dmg - but i also only had 15% dmg reduction from battlespirit.
I also think it´s very much possible to compare stats from back then to nowadays especially when looking at dmg to HP numbers and absolute statpools.
Regen was pretty much comparable to what i´m aiming for now. I had 169 magica recovery back then alongside 16% cost reduction for my magica skills (that also were much cheaper because there was no cost increase due to CP=level system implemented yet) and potions on a 30s timer.
My regen was actually better in 1.5 (specifically stamina at 126) than it ever was after that because resource management (specifically cost reduction) was the only stat worthy to aquire because it was in no way affected by softcaps.
I hit crystal fragments from 500 to 800 noncrit dmg regularly back then and that´s about what a full dmg enchanted lich + spinner build will hit now on a medium or light armor target - 5000 to 8000 noncrit dmg (8000 noncrit is a really really really lucky hit).
What has changed is:
- crit now is a vaible stat despite impen dmg reduction (this is a slight dmg increase on properly built players with high impen but a massive increase on glasscannon builds)
- people have less hp now resulting in a different dmg to hp ratio which changes peoples perception on how hard they are getting hit
So in the end we´re now hitting about as hard (in absolute numbers with the x10 multiplier factored in) as we did in 1.5 (1.6 was a different beast) but to actually do so most builds had to sacrifice about 10k HP (1000 hp back in the old system) resulting in them dying a lot faster.Edited by Derra on 12 December 2016 14:28<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
Kutsuu✭✭✭✭✭Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Rare enough? It's almost 100% uptime.Implosion, broken??? Pick one. A 3% chance to to 15k dmg when under 15% health. Please enlighten me how this is an issue in PvP?? hint: it isnt´t, storm skilline (or whatever it´s called) is one of the most well-designed skillines in the game, no need for chances here.
It's really annoying dying to someone who is running from you lol. I won't say it's broken but then again rarely do I fight Stan sorcs that aren't just a carbon copy of every other stam 1 hit wonder
Why the heck are you chasing someone while you have less than 15% health? Seriously Implosion is rare enough that it's just an "every once in a while" thing and you're going to be executed by one of half a dozen very potent executes if you're below 15% health regardless.
This is a serious L2P issue - either put complete focus in recovering your health if you've hit 15%, or resign to dying to execute damage. Don't blame your death on Implosion.
At the second and final rank of the passive, Implosion has a 6% chance to proc when dealing physical or lightning damage below 15% health.Edited by Kutsuu on 12 December 2016 14:30PC/NA
Envy Me - Sorc
Kutsus - NB
Kutsmuffin - Temp
Kutsuu the Destroyer - NB
Kutsuu - Temp
Natsu Dragoneel - DK
Kutsumo - NB0 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I disagree. I think that one way DPS is so high is that sustain is so infinite. I would prefer to reduce sustain and that would force DPS to lower.
Which would result in fights not ending because sustain would still be infinite (which it always has been since 1.2 introduced 5p sets and 1.3 the new regen caps).
Also do people actually remember how fast people died in the beginning of this game? Three whips and most ppl were toast.
Yeah, but at the beginning of the game people weren't max level.
RE: infinite sustain. Yes it has existed since 1.3. But players were forced to give up damage to get it. That doesn't happen now.
@Ishammael considering you´re also advocating to have softcaps back in the game.
Back then i was overcapped on magica reg. Overcapped on magica. Softcap on stamina. Softcap on Spelldmg. Softcap on stamreg.
While wearing two sustain sets.
I did not give up anything. Literally nothing. I was softcapped on one and overcapped on the other dmg stat.
In fact i am now more forced/inclined to give up dmg than i was in 1.3 to 1.5 because now i have an actual choice. I have to find a working build for my playstyle providing me with the minimum regeneration needed to get out of all sticky situations while also providing as much dmg as possible.
In the current patch for the first time in ESO i have a plenthora of vaible sets to choose from as a magica builds (i don´t say sets are perfectly balanced at the moment mind you - but finally you can make reasonable choices).
Imo the only thing that needs adressing are utility sets: Why do i get major expedition for 30s only after drinking a potion - yet there are other sets providing permanent major sorcery/prophecy etc.
I really, from the bottom of my heart, do not want to go back to the "you either use seducer/archmage/magnus or you´re build is crap" meta (because thats essentially what it was - there was no tradeoff or choice it was sustain sets as alpha and omega when making a build).
It wasn´t as much the dmg to health ratio that made people live longer back then - no it was permablock on all and every build with s&b. If you did not run s&b back then you ran the risk of dying just as fast as you´re now (and it happened).
Yes, you may have hit softcaps... but you didn't have the same absolute damage or regen.
Regardless, its impossible to compare stats now to then. Very much an apples vs oranges thing.
Agreed that there are more choices now, but at the same time there are even more non-viable choices exactly because they can't compete w/o soft caps. Look, I'm not saying soft caps are a the silver bullet but I think some similar mechanism needs to be considered. The power creep has been steadily marching with every patch.
Indeed i did not have the same absolute dmg - but i also only had 15% dmg reduction from battlespirit.
Regen was pretty much comparable to what i´m aiming for now. I had 169 magica recovery back then alongside 16% cost reduction for my magica skills (that also were much cheaper because there was no cost increase due to CP=level system implemented yet) and potions on a 30s timer.
My regen was actually better in 1.5 than it ever was after that because recovery (specifically cost reduction) was the only stat worthy to aquire because it was in no way affected by softcaps.
I hit crystal fragments from 500 to 800 noncrit dmg regularly back then and that´s about what a full dmg enchanted lich + spinner build will hit now on a medium or light armor target - 5000 to 8000 noncrit dmg (8000 noncrit is a really really really lucky hit).
What has changed is:
- crit now is a vaible stat despite impen dmg reduction (this is a slight dmg increase on properly built players with high impen but a massive increase on glasscannon builds)
- people have less hp now resulting in a different dmg to hp ratio which changes peoples perception on how hard they are getting hit
So in the end we´re now hitting about as hard (in absolute numbers with the x10 multiplier factored in) as we did in 1.5 (1.6 was a different beast) but to actually do so most builds had to sacrifice about 10k HP (1000 hp back in the old system) resulting in them dying a lot faster.
Agreed, in general, on the point about dmg to hp ratio.
However, in the current patch we have the ability to stack hp way up to 70k or higher. Hence any suggestion to restore the 1.5:1:1 hp:mana:stam stats can't be considered. Which is why I think some form of soft caps should be considered -- perhaps battle spirit should implement the caps so PvE isn't affected.
How exactly the caps should be implemented, I don't know. Here's the problem: if battle spirit were overnight removed players would be one shotting each other with spell dmg as low as 2k -- all you have to do is look at tooltips to see this.
Balance and dmg numbers are just so messed up its hard to understand exactly what to do.
EDIT: I think at the end of the day resource pools need to be decoupled from damage.Edited by Ishammael on 12 December 2016 14:330 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I disagree. I think that one way DPS is so high is that sustain is so infinite. I would prefer to reduce sustain and that would force DPS to lower.
Which would result in fights not ending because sustain would still be infinite (which it always has been since 1.2 introduced 5p sets and 1.3 the new regen caps).
Also do people actually remember how fast people died in the beginning of this game? Three whips and most ppl were toast.
Yeah, but at the beginning of the game people weren't max level.
RE: infinite sustain. Yes it has existed since 1.3. But players were forced to give up damage to get it. That doesn't happen now.
@Ishammael considering you´re also advocating to have softcaps back in the game.
Back then i was overcapped on magica reg. Overcapped on magica. Softcap on stamina. Softcap on Spelldmg. Softcap on stamreg.
While wearing two sustain sets.
I did not give up anything. Literally nothing. I was softcapped on one and overcapped on the other dmg stat.
In fact i am now more forced/inclined to give up dmg than i was in 1.3 to 1.5 because now i have an actual choice. I have to find a working build for my playstyle providing me with the minimum regeneration needed to get out of all sticky situations while also providing as much dmg as possible.
In the current patch for the first time in ESO i have a plenthora of vaible sets to choose from as a magica builds (i don´t say sets are perfectly balanced at the moment mind you - but finally you can make reasonable choices).
Imo the only thing that needs adressing are utility sets: Why do i get major expedition for 30s only after drinking a potion - yet there are other sets providing permanent major sorcery/prophecy etc.
I really, from the bottom of my heart, do not want to go back to the "you either use seducer/archmage/magnus or you´re build is crap" meta (because thats essentially what it was - there was no tradeoff or choice it was sustain sets as alpha and omega when making a build).
It wasn´t as much the dmg to health ratio that made people live longer back then - no it was permablock on all and every build with s&b. If you did not run s&b back then you ran the risk of dying just as fast as you´re now (and it happened).
Yes, you may have hit softcaps... but you didn't have the same absolute damage or regen.
Regardless, its impossible to compare stats now to then. Very much an apples vs oranges thing.
Agreed that there are more choices now, but at the same time there are even more non-viable choices exactly because they can't compete w/o soft caps. Look, I'm not saying soft caps are a the silver bullet but I think some similar mechanism needs to be considered. The power creep has been steadily marching with every patch.
Indeed i did not have the same absolute dmg - but i also only had 15% dmg reduction from battlespirit.
Regen was pretty much comparable to what i´m aiming for now. I had 169 magica recovery back then alongside 16% cost reduction for my magica skills (that also were much cheaper because there was no cost increase due to CP=level system implemented yet) and potions on a 30s timer.
My regen was actually better in 1.5 than it ever was after that because recovery (specifically cost reduction) was the only stat worthy to aquire because it was in no way affected by softcaps.
I hit crystal fragments from 500 to 800 noncrit dmg regularly back then and that´s about what a full dmg enchanted lich + spinner build will hit now on a medium or light armor target - 5000 to 8000 noncrit dmg (8000 noncrit is a really really really lucky hit).
What has changed is:
- crit now is a vaible stat despite impen dmg reduction (this is a slight dmg increase on properly built players with high impen but a massive increase on glasscannon builds)
- people have less hp now resulting in a different dmg to hp ratio which changes peoples perception on how hard they are getting hit
So in the end we´re now hitting about as hard (in absolute numbers with the x10 multiplier factored in) as we did in 1.5 (1.6 was a different beast) but to actually do so most builds had to sacrifice about 10k HP (1000 hp back in the old system) resulting in them dying a lot faster.
Agreed, in general, on the point about dmg to hp ratio.
However, in the current patch we have the ability to stack hp way up to 70k or higher. Hence any suggestion to restore the 1.5:1:1 hp:mana:stam stats can't be considered. Which is why I think some form of soft caps should be considered -- perhaps battle spirit should implement the caps so PvE isn't affected.
How exactly the caps should be implemented, I don't know. Here's the problem: if battle spirit were overnight removed players would be one shotting each other with spell dmg as low as 2k -- all you have to do is look at tooltips to see this.
Balance and dmg numbers are just so messed up its hard to understand exactly what to do.
EDIT: I think at the end of the day resource pools need to be decoupled from damage.
I still don´t see the problem to be perfectly honest.
People can just build for more HP if they feel the need to on dmg builds. HP is a valuable stat at the moment which is a good thing.
Like - i really don´t understand what you want to change because in my opinion this specific part of the game is one that is not flawed or broken at the moment.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Delsskia✭✭✭✭Poisons - 60% increase in cost of skills needs to be nerfed to 20%
Ultimates - We need a caster Ulti for dual wield.
- We need a caster Ulti for Dawnbreaker
- Damage from Destro Ulti needs to be cut in half, and since the animation/clouds spawn ABOVE the camera we need a way to see that it's over us... ring on the ground under it, cylinder from the ground to the cloud... and in colors that will delineate friendly from enemy.
Mist Form - Does not remove and provide immunity to roots and snares.
Shuffle - Currently means dodge everything forevermore
Line of Sight - If someone is standing behind a stick they won't receive a heal. I can literally see a character from the knees up but not from the knees down and they won't receive a heal. Am I truly trying to heal their feet?
- Proc sets hitting people in stealth and/or behind walls and doors.
Heals - If they were truly smart, they'd prioritize the healer, then the group, then people not in the group. It's ridiculous that I have to cast 7 or 8 Breaths just to get one of them to hit me or someone in my group.
Combat Bug - Will Templars ever be able to mount?
Crowd Control - Completely out of hand. Way too many secondary effects that have knock downs AND stuns.
-Immunity/diminishing returns are a myth.
- Subsequent casts of a CC within 20 seconds should cost 100% more.
- Being completely locked out of all skills, potions, block and break free should be removed from the game. There's no place for a grayed out skill bar. How can anyone justify making someone utterly defenseless until they die?
- Fears need to be subject to immediate break free.
- All forms of CC should overwrite each other. It's pure craziness that I can be knocked down, stunned, rooted, snared, feared, disoriented and silenced all at the same time. Then, if by some miracle I'm able to survive that, it can all happen again in a couple of seconds.
Macros - ZOS has already stated that a third party program which gives someone an unfair advantage is considered a cheat. If ZOS wants to keep macros in the game, then do it right. Make macros creatable from within the game UI and force them to respect internal cool downs. Quit allowing 3rd party programs from mice and keyboards to bypass game mechanics.Edited by Delsskia on 12 December 2016 16:13NA-PC
Fantasia0 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I disagree. I think that one way DPS is so high is that sustain is so infinite. I would prefer to reduce sustain and that would force DPS to lower.
Which would result in fights not ending because sustain would still be infinite (which it always has been since 1.2 introduced 5p sets and 1.3 the new regen caps).
Also do people actually remember how fast people died in the beginning of this game? Three whips and most ppl were toast.
Yeah, but at the beginning of the game people weren't max level.
RE: infinite sustain. Yes it has existed since 1.3. But players were forced to give up damage to get it. That doesn't happen now.
@Ishammael considering you´re also advocating to have softcaps back in the game.
Back then i was overcapped on magica reg. Overcapped on magica. Softcap on stamina. Softcap on Spelldmg. Softcap on stamreg.
While wearing two sustain sets.
I did not give up anything. Literally nothing. I was softcapped on one and overcapped on the other dmg stat.
In fact i am now more forced/inclined to give up dmg than i was in 1.3 to 1.5 because now i have an actual choice. I have to find a working build for my playstyle providing me with the minimum regeneration needed to get out of all sticky situations while also providing as much dmg as possible.
In the current patch for the first time in ESO i have a plenthora of vaible sets to choose from as a magica builds (i don´t say sets are perfectly balanced at the moment mind you - but finally you can make reasonable choices).
Imo the only thing that needs adressing are utility sets: Why do i get major expedition for 30s only after drinking a potion - yet there are other sets providing permanent major sorcery/prophecy etc.
I really, from the bottom of my heart, do not want to go back to the "you either use seducer/archmage/magnus or you´re build is crap" meta (because thats essentially what it was - there was no tradeoff or choice it was sustain sets as alpha and omega when making a build).
It wasn´t as much the dmg to health ratio that made people live longer back then - no it was permablock on all and every build with s&b. If you did not run s&b back then you ran the risk of dying just as fast as you´re now (and it happened).
Yes, you may have hit softcaps... but you didn't have the same absolute damage or regen.
Regardless, its impossible to compare stats now to then. Very much an apples vs oranges thing.
Agreed that there are more choices now, but at the same time there are even more non-viable choices exactly because they can't compete w/o soft caps. Look, I'm not saying soft caps are a the silver bullet but I think some similar mechanism needs to be considered. The power creep has been steadily marching with every patch.
Indeed i did not have the same absolute dmg - but i also only had 15% dmg reduction from battlespirit.
Regen was pretty much comparable to what i´m aiming for now. I had 169 magica recovery back then alongside 16% cost reduction for my magica skills (that also were much cheaper because there was no cost increase due to CP=level system implemented yet) and potions on a 30s timer.
My regen was actually better in 1.5 than it ever was after that because recovery (specifically cost reduction) was the only stat worthy to aquire because it was in no way affected by softcaps.
I hit crystal fragments from 500 to 800 noncrit dmg regularly back then and that´s about what a full dmg enchanted lich + spinner build will hit now on a medium or light armor target - 5000 to 8000 noncrit dmg (8000 noncrit is a really really really lucky hit).
What has changed is:
- crit now is a vaible stat despite impen dmg reduction (this is a slight dmg increase on properly built players with high impen but a massive increase on glasscannon builds)
- people have less hp now resulting in a different dmg to hp ratio which changes peoples perception on how hard they are getting hit
So in the end we´re now hitting about as hard (in absolute numbers with the x10 multiplier factored in) as we did in 1.5 (1.6 was a different beast) but to actually do so most builds had to sacrifice about 10k HP (1000 hp back in the old system) resulting in them dying a lot faster.
Agreed, in general, on the point about dmg to hp ratio.
However, in the current patch we have the ability to stack hp way up to 70k or higher. Hence any suggestion to restore the 1.5:1:1 hp:mana:stam stats can't be considered. Which is why I think some form of soft caps should be considered -- perhaps battle spirit should implement the caps so PvE isn't affected.
How exactly the caps should be implemented, I don't know. Here's the problem: if battle spirit were overnight removed players would be one shotting each other with spell dmg as low as 2k -- all you have to do is look at tooltips to see this.
Balance and dmg numbers are just so messed up its hard to understand exactly what to do.
EDIT: I think at the end of the day resource pools need to be decoupled from damage.
I still don´t see the problem to be perfectly honest.
People can just build for more HP if they feel the need to on dmg builds. HP is a valuable stat at the moment which is a good thing.
Like - i really don´t understand what you want to change because in my opinion this specific part of the game is one that is not flawed or broken at the moment.
What is flawed and broken is that stacking your dmg stats also get you defense. This characteristic effects certain classes more than others. Sorc is a perfect example -- that class loses nothing by going for max spell dmg and mana.2 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
It have 6% chance to proc whatever target health is, but deals damage only when target is at 15% or lower health, so it's not rare, during typical battle stamsorc can just dodge around with hurricane and get killing blows for nothing.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Rare enough? It's almost 100% uptime.Implosion, broken??? Pick one. A 3% chance to to 15k dmg when under 15% health. Please enlighten me how this is an issue in PvP?? hint: it isnt´t, storm skilline (or whatever it´s called) is one of the most well-designed skillines in the game, no need for chances here.
It's really annoying dying to someone who is running from you lol. I won't say it's broken but then again rarely do I fight Stan sorcs that aren't just a carbon copy of every other stam 1 hit wonder
Why the heck are you chasing someone while you have less than 15% health? Seriously Implosion is rare enough that it's just an "every once in a while" thing and you're going to be executed by one of half a dozen very potent executes if you're below 15% health regardless.
This is a serious L2P issue - either put complete focus in recovering your health if you've hit 15%, or resign to dying to execute damage. Don't blame your death on Implosion.
At the second and final rank of the passive, Implosion has a 6% chance to proc when dealing physical or lightning damage below 15% health.
2 -
Wollust✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Can we get rid of some snares pls. It feels as if literally everything has some sort of snare built into it.Susano'o
Zerg Squad5 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭Add 50 or more flags/capture points all over the map. That will fix many things: lag, zergs, long riding time, gap between fights etc..
I made a thread about it: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/307770/an-idea-to-reduce-zergs-thus-reducing-lag-in-pvp-without-technical-measurementsEdited by hmsdragonfly on 12 December 2016 15:36Aldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I disagree. I think that one way DPS is so high is that sustain is so infinite. I would prefer to reduce sustain and that would force DPS to lower.
Which would result in fights not ending because sustain would still be infinite (which it always has been since 1.2 introduced 5p sets and 1.3 the new regen caps).
Also do people actually remember how fast people died in the beginning of this game? Three whips and most ppl were toast.
Yeah, but at the beginning of the game people weren't max level.
RE: infinite sustain. Yes it has existed since 1.3. But players were forced to give up damage to get it. That doesn't happen now.
@Ishammael considering you´re also advocating to have softcaps back in the game.
Back then i was overcapped on magica reg. Overcapped on magica. Softcap on stamina. Softcap on Spelldmg. Softcap on stamreg.
While wearing two sustain sets.
I did not give up anything. Literally nothing. I was softcapped on one and overcapped on the other dmg stat.
In fact i am now more forced/inclined to give up dmg than i was in 1.3 to 1.5 because now i have an actual choice. I have to find a working build for my playstyle providing me with the minimum regeneration needed to get out of all sticky situations while also providing as much dmg as possible.
In the current patch for the first time in ESO i have a plenthora of vaible sets to choose from as a magica builds (i don´t say sets are perfectly balanced at the moment mind you - but finally you can make reasonable choices).
Imo the only thing that needs adressing are utility sets: Why do i get major expedition for 30s only after drinking a potion - yet there are other sets providing permanent major sorcery/prophecy etc.
I really, from the bottom of my heart, do not want to go back to the "you either use seducer/archmage/magnus or you´re build is crap" meta (because thats essentially what it was - there was no tradeoff or choice it was sustain sets as alpha and omega when making a build).
It wasn´t as much the dmg to health ratio that made people live longer back then - no it was permablock on all and every build with s&b. If you did not run s&b back then you ran the risk of dying just as fast as you´re now (and it happened).
Yes, you may have hit softcaps... but you didn't have the same absolute damage or regen.
Regardless, its impossible to compare stats now to then. Very much an apples vs oranges thing.
Agreed that there are more choices now, but at the same time there are even more non-viable choices exactly because they can't compete w/o soft caps. Look, I'm not saying soft caps are a the silver bullet but I think some similar mechanism needs to be considered. The power creep has been steadily marching with every patch.
Indeed i did not have the same absolute dmg - but i also only had 15% dmg reduction from battlespirit.
Regen was pretty much comparable to what i´m aiming for now. I had 169 magica recovery back then alongside 16% cost reduction for my magica skills (that also were much cheaper because there was no cost increase due to CP=level system implemented yet) and potions on a 30s timer.
My regen was actually better in 1.5 than it ever was after that because recovery (specifically cost reduction) was the only stat worthy to aquire because it was in no way affected by softcaps.
I hit crystal fragments from 500 to 800 noncrit dmg regularly back then and that´s about what a full dmg enchanted lich + spinner build will hit now on a medium or light armor target - 5000 to 8000 noncrit dmg (8000 noncrit is a really really really lucky hit).
What has changed is:
- crit now is a vaible stat despite impen dmg reduction (this is a slight dmg increase on properly built players with high impen but a massive increase on glasscannon builds)
- people have less hp now resulting in a different dmg to hp ratio which changes peoples perception on how hard they are getting hit
So in the end we´re now hitting about as hard (in absolute numbers with the x10 multiplier factored in) as we did in 1.5 (1.6 was a different beast) but to actually do so most builds had to sacrifice about 10k HP (1000 hp back in the old system) resulting in them dying a lot faster.
Agreed, in general, on the point about dmg to hp ratio.
However, in the current patch we have the ability to stack hp way up to 70k or higher. Hence any suggestion to restore the 1.5:1:1 hp:mana:stam stats can't be considered. Which is why I think some form of soft caps should be considered -- perhaps battle spirit should implement the caps so PvE isn't affected.
How exactly the caps should be implemented, I don't know. Here's the problem: if battle spirit were overnight removed players would be one shotting each other with spell dmg as low as 2k -- all you have to do is look at tooltips to see this.
Balance and dmg numbers are just so messed up its hard to understand exactly what to do.
EDIT: I think at the end of the day resource pools need to be decoupled from damage.
I still don´t see the problem to be perfectly honest.
People can just build for more HP if they feel the need to on dmg builds. HP is a valuable stat at the moment which is a good thing.
Like - i really don´t understand what you want to change because in my opinion this specific part of the game is one that is not flawed or broken at the moment.
What is flawed and broken is that stacking your dmg stats also get you defense. This characteristic effects certain classes more than others. Sorc is a perfect example -- that class loses nothing by going for max spell dmg and mana.
Sorc is actually a quite bad example of this (the worst you could make probably apart from dragonblood, blazing shield and igneous shield) - only stacking max resource gives you offense and defense. Whereas your main dmg stat (spelldmg) is completely useless in terms of defense.
This is the complete opposite of every other build relying on heals as their primary defense - heals compared to shields actually do behave in the way you´ve stated and get modified by offensive AND mainstat.
So the real complaint is sorcs having a different value for the HP stat than other classes do. Which is again kind of ironic because if you try to get a moderate amount of HP on a light armor build you´re loosing way more defensive potential than it would be the case on a medium or heavy armour build (this is the case bc HP directly competes with max resource whereas dmg stat only does partially - investing into health costs you main defense stat for shield builds but for heal builds only costs secondary defense stat).
Also irrelevant to discuss if the shield changes i´ve mentioned earlier would happen.Edited by Derra on 12 December 2016 16:00<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
RoamingRiverElk✭✭✭✭✭IxSTALKERxI wrote: »LeifErickson wrote: »Fix clouding swarm.
Quoted for the quote.Edited by RoamingRiverElk on 12 December 2016 16:16Dalris Aalr - Magicka (Stamina) DK | Dalfish - Magicka Sorc | Dal Aalr - Magicka Warden | Dalrish - Mag/Stam NB | Irana Aalr - PvE Templar0 -
Quantum_VClass RepresentativeKnootewoot wrote: »Magicka users should be able to break free using magicka. All those root and snares hardly hurt stamina builds but can wreck light armored magicka builds.
I'll have to disagree... CC immunity will give you room to recover stamina enough to CC break again when it's over, maybe the problem is that you might be roll dodging/blocking too much (?). Magicka classes normally heal, shield or mitigate the effects of damage, instead of avoiding it with roll dodge.
Even though I think snares are a huge problem in the current state of pvp, they can still be countered by magicka classes, be it through mist form, cleanse (purge, purify...) and possibly other skills that I can't remember at the moment.Edited by Quantum_V on 12 December 2016 17:042