lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

I really don't like the idea. It's basicly just a copy of that crappy fighters guild skill that noone uses. Sure, it would reduce the number of people using shuffle, but then you could just remove shuffle completely (or in case zos messes up the way how things stack you could revive perma rolling times).

In my opinion the best thing to do would be to provide more counters to it. Maybe make melee magicka skills undodgable again.

1. Your suggestions does more for people without CP in reduction or with low stamina regen. Thats opposite of what medium armor skill should do.
2. Dodge rolling several times in a row would still leave you without stamina after same number of rolls (or maybe 1 roll more).
3. Currently shuffle offers +/- 20% damage reduction of all incoming damage (given stable DPS). Your proposed change gives you, what, 8k more saved stamina in 20sec fight in which you dodge roll every 2sec? Thats like 4 blocked attacks. Rework != butcher

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

1. Your suggestions does more for people without CP in reduction or with low stamina regen. Thats opposite of what medium armor skill should do.
2. Dodge rolling several times in a row would still leave you without stamina after same number of rolls (or maybe 1 roll more).
3. Currently shuffle offers +/- 20% damage reduction of all incoming damage (given stable DPS). Your proposed change gives you, what, 8k more saved stamina in 20sec fight in which you dodge roll every 2sec? Thats like 4 blocked attacks. Rework != butcher

Kutsuu wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

1. Your suggestions does more for people without CP in reduction or with low stamina regen. Thats opposite of what medium armor skill should do.
2. Dodge rolling several times in a row would still leave you without stamina after same number of rolls (or maybe 1 roll more).
3. Currently shuffle offers +/- 20% damage reduction of all incoming damage (given stable DPS). Your proposed change gives you, what, 8k more saved stamina in 20sec fight in which you dodge roll every 2sec? Thats like 4 blocked attacks. Rework != butcher

Another possibility would be that shuffle reduces dodge fatigue from 4s to 3s. It doesn't *have* to be cost reduction. I think the main thing here is to find a way for shuffle to be useful without it being a pure RNG passive dodge mechanic.

• One is visualisation, where dodge rolling damage and passive dodging the damage looks same to people looking at flying words "Dodge" and/or reading combat log.
• Second is limitation. Most RNG based attacks have cooldown, shuffle doesnt have any and that is part of...
• Third problem is it can over/under perform. Overperforming is what makes people cry nerf, underperforming goes unnoticeable. Something in the middle is needed.

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

1. Your suggestions does more for people without CP in reduction or with low stamina regen. Thats opposite of what medium armor skill should do.
2. Dodge rolling several times in a row would still leave you without stamina after same number of rolls (or maybe 1 roll more).
3. Currently shuffle offers +/- 20% damage reduction of all incoming damage (given stable DPS). Your proposed change gives you, what, 8k more saved stamina in 20sec fight in which you dodge roll every 2sec? Thats like 4 blocked attacks. Rework != butcher

Another possibility would be that shuffle reduces dodge fatigue from 4s to 3s. It doesn't *have* to be cost reduction. I think the main thing here is to find a way for shuffle to be useful without it being a pure RNG passive dodge mechanic.

Problem with all these suggestions is that shuffle is core part of medium armor damage mitigation. You can say that sometimes the shuffle does wonders, but you cant say medium armor users are unkillable package of OP. They arent on top of the food chain in any combat scenario (only in ganking, where armor - except proc - doesnt come into play). No suggestion that makes defensive skill into one that isnt will help the balance.

Dodge rolling is active form of defense, that is applied for very short time, cant be stacked indefinitely and disables user from attacking while performing it. You could make it cost absolutely nothing (even without stacking cost) and it would still be worse than passive forms of defense (armor, armor buffs, range, even shield) in every combat situation except running away or dodging around in some specialized build (like that set thats deals damage on dodge roll).
I slightly over exaggerate in above statement, but my point stands.

//EDIT:
Main problem with shuffle is RNG, not that it is passive defense skill. I would recommend focusing then on the problem and avoid changing the core part (defense).
Also I would point out the heavy use of RNG in offensive forms like procs or crits that doesnt receive nearly much of hate like this. Therefore the problem with shuffle is even deeper than the RNG system.

• One is visualisation, where dodge rolling damage and passive dodging the damage looks same to people looking at flying words "Dodge" and/or reading combat log.
• Second is limitation. Most RNG based attacks have cooldown, shuffle doesnt have any and that is part of...
• Third problem is it can over/under perform. Overperforming is what makes people cry nerf, underperforming goes unnoticeable. Something in the middle is needed.

Kutsuu wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

1. Your suggestions does more for people without CP in reduction or with low stamina regen. Thats opposite of what medium armor skill should do.
2. Dodge rolling several times in a row would still leave you without stamina after same number of rolls (or maybe 1 roll more).
3. Currently shuffle offers +/- 20% damage reduction of all incoming damage (given stable DPS). Your proposed change gives you, what, 8k more saved stamina in 20sec fight in which you dodge roll every 2sec? Thats like 4 blocked attacks. Rework != butcher

Another possibility would be that shuffle reduces dodge fatigue from 4s to 3s. It doesn't *have* to be cost reduction. I think the main thing here is to find a way for shuffle to be useful without it being a pure RNG passive dodge mechanic.

Problem with all these suggestions is that shuffle is core part of medium armor damage mitigation. You can say that sometimes the shuffle does wonders, but you cant say medium armor users are unkillable package of OP. They arent on top of the food chain in any combat scenario (only in ganking, where armor - except proc - doesnt come into play). No suggestion that makes defensive skill into one that isnt will help the balance.

Dodge rolling is active form of defense, that is applied for very short time, cant be stacked indefinitely and disables user from attacking while performing it. You could make it cost absolutely nothing (even without stacking cost) and it would still be worse than passive forms of defense (armor, armor buffs, range, even shield) in every combat situation except running away or dodging around in some specialized build (like that set thats deals damage on dodge roll).
I slightly over exaggerate in above statement, but my point stands.

//EDIT:
Main problem with shuffle is RNG, not that it is passive defense skill. I would recommend focusing then on the problem and avoid changing the core part (defense).
Also I would point out the heavy use of RNG in offensive forms like procs or crits that doesnt receive nearly much of hate like this. Therefore the problem with shuffle is even deeper than the RNG system.

• One is visualisation, where dodge rolling damage and passive dodging the damage looks same to people looking at flying words "Dodge" and/or reading combat log.
• Second is limitation. Most RNG based attacks have cooldown, shuffle doesnt have any and that is part of...
• Third problem is it can over/under perform. Overperforming is what makes people cry nerf, underperforming goes unnoticeable. Something in the middle is needed.

I've never insinuated that medium armor is OP in any shape or form. However, major evasion is being used by all armor types, not just medium armor. I'll state again that I (and many others here) have a problem with passive RNG avoidance. I think avoidance should always be active *or have counters (see edit). If Shuffle should be a passive form of mitigation (NOT avoidance), then I like the Parry suggestion mentioned here much better.

Edit: One caveat though is passive avoidance that has a counter - such as a frontal arc requirement, that also doesn't work while crowd controlled. This I'm okay with because you can skillfully bypass it if your opponent is not wary enough, and you can reliably land abilities during crowd control. I mean let's be serious, how can you really dodge while laying prone or mindlessly running for your life?

I know shuffle keeps getting mentioned here, but IMO the problem is Major Evasion as a whole. I would rather see the NB skill and the medium armor skill reworked to provide some other form of mitigation instead of passive avoidance. I could even see leaving the Major Evasion on item sets in place since they have pre-requisites and none of them to my knowledge will have 100% uptime like you can achieve with 20+ second duration buffs.

It would also be great to see armor skills require a 5-piece of that armor type in order to use them. Immovable could use a rework to make it more useful to heavy armor users, as it is largely unused. I could see changing it to a 20s buff that reduces the duration of CC by 20% or something along those lines (maybe even minor expedition? idk). Annulment is better than it's ever been, and I have no real complaints with it.

ostrapz wrote: »

I think some people are missing the point, some are saying reduction is too big and some saying it's too small. I made it very clear to say this was put together with rough math and isn't a fully explored idea but the point is the numbersame I put up can and would be changed if implented. I also am not suggesting this is the specific way to go about it. The main point I'm trying to get across is that passive dodge is bs and whatever change is made should reflect what your wearing. Since medium is the Dodge roll/ evasive armor line the skill should reflect that still hence why I suggested a dodge roll cost reduction which no1 in here could rule out because no set numbers are being applied to it. 10% might make no diffrence but I'm sure everyone agrees a 80% reduction could make a big diffrnce.whoever said you canto attack while dodgerolling and it's a hindrance that's the point, while defending yourself you should not always have the option to stay on offense. Parry idea seems okay too, like you dodge taking the full blow of an attack. The goal here is to

ostrapz wrote: »

@sodantokb16_ESO lmao I've already been called out with the l2p and my experience but I'm my stamblade pvp rank is prolls higher than your stamblades. Your trying to tell me Noone else has to stop to defend and that's just wrong. In heavy armor without shuffle you can take dmg but you can'take dodge thus you must take all the dmg I give you, eventually you have to heal. You can blockcast but you will burn stam on most stam builds doiing this. And while I won't go into how strong I think shields can be their are plenty of sorcs who say theyou can't even get their full rotation in cuz they must re-shield. While I consider this resheilding more of an annoyance than an actual task they have to stop dpsing for the time it takes to shield. Pretty much every class but magplar needs to stop their offense at some points for playing defense. While you are asking me how I plan to dps when I have to dodgeroll every second you clearly haven't played stamblade without procs this patch because with cloak as broken as ever you need to dodgeroll every 5 seconds minimum, usually around every 3 seconds even with shuffle on , or you must 1shot opponent which just doesn't happen with stamblade anymore unless you have procs. Unlike other classes on stamblade you can't just stand there and facetank a combo beacuase unlike other classes I can't outtank, or out heal it. My only choice is to not be hit at all , and I prefer to have a choice when to dodge and not just hope shuffle saves me from the same wrecking blow dawnbreaker that every other class can survive