Knight-errant and Master Sword heal procs in pvp too weak

mrowmrif2 · November 2016

With 1T out, I am finally taking up my cp160 sharpened Master Sword and heading to pvp to try a build with knight-errant set... the thought is a fantastic one: stacked self healing procs through attacks like a stamina sap tank! But so far... a tad disappointing.

The Master Sword is farmed in vDSA... this is a trial, people, and a unique drop! A lot easier to farm your desired trait now with tradeable drops in group, but still challenging content for a lot of people... the item should be amazing to compete with Maelstrom weapons. The tooltip says 2500 health restored per puncture - in pve it is nice, but no tank runs a master sword in endgame pve... and no one runs 1hs dps.

Knight-errant tooltip says 1500 health restore per proc and works with all 1hs skills... again, no one is going to run this 5 piece as a trials tank or dps in heavy armor... so another clear pvp set really. And fits well with the current heavy armor meta.

Together around 4000 health restore... that is roughly what most people are pulling per hit in Cyrodill, so it theoretically might enable you to go toe to toe with those proc set meta stamblades!! but wait... battle spirit?! The heal drops to 2k... even with igneous shield healing buff + vigor, the heals cannot reach 4k per second. Especially while dodging, breaking CC and trying to apply CC vs the enemy! Just isnt happening.

I dont want to suggest flat out buffing the procs on the items themselves, as that would unbalance them in a pve setting... I shouldnt be puncturing for 10k stacked self heals in pve. But can they either be made exempt from Battle Spirit reduction so that the tooltips actually heal for the stated values in pvp? or maybe made to be scalable on weapon damage/stamina? Might be a slippery slope buffing a proc with stats but... these items need a little love... In the case of the Master Sword specifically, can we have the "heals based on damage dealt with puncture" back from before it was changed to a flat bonus in 2015? Just make the % of healing less than the full amount of damage. That alone would boost the self heals of the KE+master heal procs sufficiently.

It is such a niche build concept that it shouldnt further unbalance pvp... and honestly, with a trial weapon shouldnt it be pretty powerful?? It just... isnt. if we are already seeing nigh-immortal tanks that cant kill anyone and the bursty proc set meta glass cannon dps folks... i would put this setup somewhere in the middle. Currently just a little weak on the healing capability but fairly tanky and bursty with decent sustain... needs some help though! Thank you!

coolermh · November 2016

I use knight over BR on my proc build and its OP.

5 KE
5 Viper
2 Tremor...

I actually almost feel dirty playing this build...Its stronger the BR and as redgaurd the resource drop doesn't hurt that bad.

mrowmrif2 · November 2016

coolermh wrote: »

I use knight over BR on my proc build and its OP.

5 KE
5 Viper
2 Tremor...

I actually almost feel dirty playing this build...Its stronger the BR and as redgaurd the resource drop doesn't hurt that bad.

Yeah but you are running exactly what I was avoiding... EVERYONE is running viper, and a multiple proc set for burst is the meta and also pretty boring. I dont feel like reiterating all the whining about proc sets in pvp, and i dont really care about people using them - because they are available to be used. Likely a nerf is coming anyway to appease the weak, so meh. It is a little exhausting to see Viper, Viper, Viper in a death recap... I just prefer the more straightforward nonproc classic setup.

I am, however, considering 5 KE (2 rings + 3 armor) + 2 tremor + master sword + lekis (neck, 2h/shield and 2 armor)... i usually lowman group pvp and go after larger groups or even zergs so it is an underdog vs mass combat for the challenge. My death:kills:killing blows last night was 45:15:8 with my current setup... so definitely nice in the scenario i play. I am just a little disappointed in the effectiveness of the Master sword honestly... it just doesnt heal like it should as a trial weapon drop. Back in 2015 the Master sword heal scaled on stats and you could get it up to like 5k heals per puncture because it would heal you for the damage you dealt... not sure why it got nerfed to a flat bonus other than it was made to comply with the lack of scaling by all gear procs... they should bring back the heals based on damage and just make it a smaller %... very lackluster as it is. Very disappointing.

mrowmrif2 · November 2016

Asardes wrote: »

Frankly I don't understand why there is such a thing like "battle spirit". PvP should have the same damage and healing as PvE. IRL a .308 bullet hits just as hard in Iraq as it does in the woods.

From my other woops double post thread...

Battle Spirit was put into play because people being able to do pve damage would oneshot everyone so easily it wouldnt be any fun... it used to be like that in 2014 at first launch, and it was brutal. The same thing went for healing and shields, as well... you couldnt kill a healtank or shield stacking sorcs, so it was pretty stupid. Battle Spirit has a place (imo), but there are some things it just nerfs too far into the ground... like potion health restore, heal/shield procs from sets, etc. potions are every 45 sec... to nerf the healing they give by half is freakin insane. And i have already already talked about the impact to some of the sets that should be good in pvp but are kind of lackluster.

OurOwn · November 2016

mrowmrif2 wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

I use knight over BR on my proc build and its OP.

5 KE
5 Viper
2 Tremor...

I actually almost feel dirty playing this build...Its stronger the BR and as redgaurd the resource drop doesn't hurt that bad.

Yeah but you are running exactly what I was avoiding... EVERYONE is running viper, and a multiple proc set for burst is the meta and also pretty boring. I dont feel like reiterating all the whining about proc sets in pvp, and i dont really care about people using them - because they are available to be used. Likely a nerf is coming anyway to appease the weak, so meh. It is a little exhausting to see Viper, Viper, Viper in a death recap... I just prefer the more straightforward nonproc classic setup.

I am, however, considering 5 KE (2 rings + 3 armor) + 2 tremor + master sword + lekis (neck, 2h/shield and 2 armor)... i usually lowman group pvp and go after larger groups or even zergs so it is an underdog vs mass combat for the challenge. My death:kills:killing blows last night was 45:15:8 with my current setup... so definitely nice in the scenario i play. I am just a little disappointed in the effectiveness of the Master sword honestly... it just doesnt heal like it should as a trial weapon drop. Back in 2015 the Master sword heal scaled on stats and you could get it up to like 5k heals per puncture because it would heal you for the damage you dealt... not sure why it got nerfed to a flat bonus other than it was made to comply with the lack of scaling by all gear procs... they should bring back the heals based on damage and just make it a smaller %... very lackluster as it is. Very disappointing.

5k heals sounds about right to you op? That's half a full rally heal in a pinch.

Waffennacht · November 2016

I wanted to combine it with the ult so it's free heals with abilities.

A 3 or 4k heal per attack sounds pretty good in PvP. Magicka has to use resto staff and something like blessing of protection will heal for 5k with no attack.

It's only lack luster atm because of the 18+ k burst damage of proc sets I think.

mrowmrif2 · November 2016

OurOwn wrote: »

5k heals sounds about right to you op? That's half a full rally heal in a pinch.

Yup, about that is absolutely appropriate (imo)! We are talking about a vet trial drop one piece bonus proc that should be on par with Maelstrom weapon bonuses and a 5 piece set proc stacked together... 5k is definitely appropriate considering the multiple procs stacked. Individually, 5k would be insane OP... you could spam with no cooldown or forego the KE altogether because Master sword heal proc alone would be amazing and sufficient to heal through a zerg. But together? Especially if it is the same heal total in pvp and with battle spirit as it would be in pve (if that is even doable).

I am not asking for 10k heals (like it used to be because of damage = heal on Master sword and people running 5 piece medium with 3500+ WD on a 1hs bar...); i am asking for when i deal 4-6k damage with a ransack (and those are on a rare crit because let's be honest... heavy armor + 1hs has 0 crit benefit and eveyone is in impen gear)... that i get a 2-3k heal from a gold master weapon (as the tooltip states 2500) and then an actual tooltip heal from KE (1500)... so around 4k heal per ransack. Put a 1 second cooldown on it if needed... the point is that currently you get like a 2k heal at best, which is just insufficient and weak for what it should be.

OurOwn · November 2016

2k heal is plenty with vigor and rally up.

Lexxypwns · November 2016

mrowmrif2 wrote: »

OurOwn wrote: »

5k heals sounds about right to you op? That's half a full rally heal in a pinch.

Yup, about that is absolutely appropriate (imo)! We are talking about a vet trial drop one oiece bonus oroc that should be on par with Maelstrom weapon bonuses and a 5 piece set proc stacked together... 5k is definitely appropriate considering the multiple procs stacked. Individually, 5k would be insane OP... you could spam with no cooldown or forego the KE altogether because Master sword heal proc alone would be amazing and sufficient to heal through a zerg. But together? Especially if it is the same heal total in pvp and with battle spirit as it would be in pve (if that is even doable). I am not asking for 10k heals (like it used to be because of damage = heal on Master sword and people running 5 piece medium with 3500+ WD on a 1hs bar...); i am asking for when i deal 4-6k damage with a ransack (and those are on a rare crit because let's be honest... heavy armor + 1hs has 0 crit benefit and eveyone is in impen gear)... that i get a 2-3k heal from a gold master weapon (as the tooltip states 2500) and then an actual tooltip heal from KE (1500)... so around 4k heal per ransack. Put a 1 second cooldown on it if needed... the point is that currently you get like a 2k heal at best, which is just insufficient and weak for what it should be.

I have a friend who runs this on his stam sorc, 5 KE, Master's sword, 5 Spriggans, 1 Kra'agh. His ransack hits much harder than yours, even with my 32k physical resist he has crazy damage and huge heals. Heavy armor doesn't have native penetration so you should probably build some in, even if not to the extent he did. Of course, as a stam sorc, he runs thief stone because he has no real need for regen.

I just want to reiterate, as a stam build, if you're not running a proc set its almost lunacy not to use 1 kra'agh, its obscenely good and you don't have to worry with over penetration because of the heavy armor meta

mrowmrif2 · November 2016

@Lexxypwns i wonder if he is running 5 spriggans medium armor and the 5 KE with jewelry... because the damage from the 5m set will definitely bump up the damage (+ the pen from spriggans and kragh) and heals. I just happen to be building out heavy armor as opposed to medium, but that is the other way to go. Just makes you a lot squishier. His heals from Master sword and KE are still gimp, but his vigor hits like a truck because of 5m. I also wonder what his CP distribution is; probably a good chunk in Blessed and Quick Recovery?

@OurOwn Vigor heals scale from weapon damage and crit as well, which lends itself to medium armor. In a duel with a stamblade running no proc sets i can win about half the time; with someone running a proc set? Less than half the time. Vs the current meta of procs and with me in a heavy armor set (less heal potential from rally and vigor due to lower WD and crit), 2k heal from Master + KE together is actually not enough. Layering two HOTs is stamina expensive, especially when you have to CC break (unless you are chugging unstoppable pots), gap close and try to deal damage. Bump that heal up by 2k and it is sufficient and sustainable... and sort of the purpose of the Master sword to begin with.

WillhelmBlack · November 2016

Its a good set up on a Stam DK, what are you trying it on? A NB?

Alucardo · November 2016

mrowmrif2 · November 2016

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Its a good set up on a Stam DK, what are you trying it on? A NB?

Stam dk (imperial - trials tank mainly)

@Alucardo Lol? Mr. superman no home.

OurOwn · November 2016

mrowmrif2 wrote: »

@Lexxypwns i wonder if he is running 5 spriggans medium armor and the 5 KE with jewelry... because the damage from the 5m set will definitely bump up the damage (+ the pen from spriggans and kragh) and heals. I just happen to be building out heavy armor as opposed to medium, but that is the other way to go. Just makes you a lot squishier. His heals from Master sword and KE are still gimp, but his vigor hits like a truck because of 5m. I also wonder what his CP distribution is; probably a good chunk in Blessed and Quick Recovery?

@OurOwn Vigor heals scale from weapon damage and crit as well, which lends itself to medium armor. In a duel with a stamblade running no proc sets i can win about half the time; with someone running a proc set? Less than half the time. Vs the current meta of procs and with me in a heavy armor set (less heal potential from rally and vigor due to lower WD and crit), 2k heal from Master + KE together is actually not enough. Layering two HOTs is stamina expensive, especially when you have to CC break (unless you are chugging unstoppable pots), gap close and try to deal damage. Bump that heal up by 2k and it is sufficient and sustainable... and sort of the purpose of the Master sword to begin with.

Major mending on your dk makes stam blades vigor look like garbage. But you're probably using tremorscale too right. Lol.

mrowmrif2 · November 2016

@OurOwn if you read above you will see i am not running proc sets, so no. No tremorscale.

I use igneous for the mending, and i am telling you it is not sufficient. I hate the condescending tone you use like I clearly dont know what I am talking about and you have all the answers. I am saying: I run igneous, vigor and rally; KE and Master Sword and the heals are good but not what they should be. If you compare the heals i am getting from my 2 heal procs vs the damage output from 2 stacked proc sets incoming they are NOT EQUAL.

How is that hard to understand? Viper's sting + kragh/veli are all you see on death recaps with incoming damage about 8-15k/second vs the HPS of maybe 5k. I am using KE and the Master Sword as a way to survive the burst, outlast it and then turn around and pressure the glass cannons or kill them. And what i am saying is very simple: there is a disparity. I should be able to equally heal the damage i am taking, proc for proc, but i cannot. And i am asking ZOS to take a look at it.

Question for you: do you run a sharpened master sword in pvp? Running Knight-Errant with it? Do you have a frame of reference for your assumption that the heals should be fine? Just more official forums meta?

OurOwn · November 2016

I simply run hunting, agility, krag, kena, sharp legs axes. Works fine.

Waffennacht · November 2016

mrowmrif2 wrote: »

@OurOwn if you read above you will see i am not running proc sets, so no. No tremorscale.

I use igneous for the mending, and i am telling you it is not sufficient. I hate the condescending tone you use like I clearly dont know what I am talking about and you have all the answers. I am saying: I run igneous, vigor and rally; KE and Master Sword and the heals are good but not what they should be. If you compare the heals i am getting from my 2 heal procs vs the damage output from 2 stacked proc sets incoming they are NOT EQUAL.

How is that hard to understand? Viper's sting + kragh/veli are all you see on death recaps with incoming damage about 8-15k/second vs the HPS of maybe 5k. I am using KE and the Master Sword as a way to survive the burst, outlast it and then turn around and pressure the glass cannons or kill them. And what i am saying is very simple: there is a disparity. I should be able to equally heal the damage i am taking, proc for proc, but i cannot. And i am asking ZOS to take a look at it.

Question for you: do you run a sharpened master sword in pvp? Running Knight-Errant with it? Do you have a frame of reference for your assumption that the heals should be fine? Just more official forums meta?

Let's see here. Tremorscale potential = 6.5k damage every 4 secs, or roughly 1.6k dps (non PvP for simplicity)

KE has a potential of 1.25k hps.

That's a difference of 350 hit points per sec, or almost nothing.

You can modify both, something like 25% from mighty, and then crit modifiers (though the crit modifiers effects both equally) you then have The Blessing CP tree and the other healing CP tree.

That gives you access to 25% modifier that the damage does not have access to. You can further modify the heal with major mending and major vitaltiy (minor forms too) these are far easier to access than the major minors for damage.

Meaning heals have a potential 85% more modifiers than damage.

This means your Tremorscale dps can be out hps ed by KE if the set up is built for this goal. Theoretically you could out HPS with KE over Tremorscale by approximately 1k (or 500 hps in PvP)

To do so would prob mean SnB both bars and an average of 1 SnB move per sec.

But isn't that far apart

Lexxypwns · November 2016

mrowmrif2 wrote: »

@Lexxypwns i wonder if he is running 5 spriggans medium armor and the 5 KE with jewelry... because the damage from the 5m set will definitely bump up the damage (+ the pen from spriggans and kragh) and heals. I just happen to be building out heavy armor as opposed to medium, but that is the other way to go. Just makes you a lot squishier. His heals from Master sword and KE are still gimp, but his vigor hits like a truck because of 5m. I also wonder what his CP distribution is; probably a good chunk in Blessed and Quick Recovery?

@OurOwn Vigor heals scale from weapon damage and crit as well, which lends itself to medium armor. In a duel with a stamblade running no proc sets i can win about half the time; with someone running a proc set? Less than half the time. Vs the current meta of procs and with me in a heavy armor set (less heal potential from rally and vigor due to lower WD and crit), 2k heal from Master + KE together is actually not enough. Layering two HOTs is stamina expensive, especially when you have to CC break (unless you are chugging unstoppable pots), gap close and try to deal damage. Bump that heal up by 2k and it is sufficient and sustainable... and sort of the purpose of the Master sword to begin with.

Nah, he's running 5 heavy and building his damage through penetration and crits. Master sword isn't your main heal, but combined with vigor and rally ticks, particularly if you have major mending/vitality, it lets you stay offensive longer for lower risk. Excluding proc sets it's BiS on Stam sorc and DK IMO. Though for DK I'd run 5 draugr instead of spriggans since it gives damage and sustain through passive

mrowmrif2 · November 2016

@Waffennacht side note: correct me if im wrong, but i believe set procs cannot crit (beside the point when comparing dps vs hps though, as you mentioned - cp affects both equally); so neither heal nor damage procs can crit.

yes, i could out-heal the proc set by modifying my cp to lean heavily in that direction via blessed and even quick recovery... but then do pretty garbage damage since my Mage cp are not dumped into the usual mighty, penetration, precise and thaum and take more damage because quick recovery takes away from the mitigation tree. Im really attempting to put together a setup that does both - heal sufficiently AND damage/sustain. A balanced setup that does not use procs for damage (only heals) that depends mostly on player skill to outweigh the gadgety burst meta. So i counter with this argument... Master Sword used to heal based on damage done (similar to bahrahas curse and leeching plate do currently, just with direct damage in one shot as opposed to passive over time proc damage)... Why shouldnt it be made to work that way again? I should be able to increase my damage via cp and have that translate to increased healing with Master Sword... but the mechanic of the weapon currently will only scale on blessed points and not at all from penetration and crit... they changed Master Sword proc before cp was even a thing, and now with cp being 561 cap, it is pretty low end as far as effectiveness compared to how Maelstrom weapons scale so well. Cruel flurry bonus stacked with thaum cp? Shiiiit. They need to put it back to the way it usedto work and just reduce the damage:healing ratio to something like 50% of damage dealt, then have battle spirit reduce the damage (and therefore the healing).

@Lexxypwns draugr is interesting but i dont think i want to go downthat path just from preference. After my comments above, i may actually try leeching plate out over KE since its poison WILL scale with cp and actually deal more damage and more healing. Yay WGT farming. I am just sad i cant make KE truly pop with the Master Sword in its current form. If they alter either to be more effective, it could be really fun. As it is, spamming rally and vigor with bash and ransack is sucking my stamina dry even with igneous up. I still need more practice with the build (and i am getting good kills), but im just not happy with the Master Sword being such a puss puss of a heal. It needs to be better considering how it is obtained.

Waffennacht · November 2016

I'm not saying your request isn't valid, nor good, nor well made etc.

I'm coming at it from a view point of: Good luck getting ZoS to change it. How many threads have you seen that ask for specific changes? Then ask yourself, how many things have been changed like that?

If anything ZoS finds a way to change something in a way not mentioned in the forums. The wards come to mind, people posted minor major, unstackable, reduced strength, but not reduced duration - and that's what they did.

I was thinking, HA, KE + Tremor (cuz we SnB x2 unique enough) + eternal hunt, or br, or medium alchemist (or ha i guess) really a flex set

Brb

mrowmrif2 · November 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

I'm not saying your request isn't valid, nor good, nor well made etc.

I'm coming at it from a view point of: Good luck getting ZoS to change it. How many threads have you seen that ask for specific changes? Then ask yourself, how many things have been changed like that?

If anything ZoS finds a way to change something in a way not mentioned in the forums. The wards come to mind, people posted minor major, unstackable, reduced strength, but not reduced duration - and that's what they did.

I was thinking, HA, KE + Tremor (cuz we SnB x2 unique enough) + eternal hunt, or br, or medium alchemist (or ha i guess) really a flex set

Brb

Point taken and appreciate the feedback! Change with ESO has to happen in a couple ways...

first, look for overall positive response from the community to a reasonable and thought out/supported-with-experience point or request. I am a moderator for tamrielfoundry, so that is always my first outlet (i tend to find the official forums largely toxic and avoid them)... i have posted my build on foundry, gotten feedback similar to what you see here in this thread, and then actually engaged one of the foundry members in duels to help me playtest the build more. I came here to start the topic specifically around the set capabilities and not the build itself - the build i am having overall success with, but it would be more fun and effective if the heal procs were more powerful, as noted.

Second, ZOS leadership often accepts feedback from lead guilds in game. I am friends with multiple huge trade guild leaders, and they usually get asked for info after every major update or DLC... so that is another way to get to the devs.

Third, streamers have a big influence on game development... i plan on bringing my build and concerns about the item sets to fengrush and kingrichard to see what they think. I was fighting feng two nights ago with this on his magplar, so i will see if he wants to take it for a spin; i still need a purple KE neck drop anyway so i can farm it with him if he wants to pve grind for a couple hours.

Finally, ZOS talks directly with our foundry top contributors on a regular basis and during Cons. We just published an article on the main page that was a result of one such discussion with them providing some sweet material. It is good for both sides. Not usually focused on items specifically, but there is a small potential for feedback there, as well.

But it starts here... i havent seen overwhelming "this is stupid" from you guys, so it must not be too crazy of a request, eh? I would love to hear
More from people that have tried similar or have a master sword and find similar experience in pvp with it.

Thanks again for the good discussion

Waffennacht · November 2016

Oh and btw they can crit @mrowmrif2

Looks like you have their ear, and I should say I support your proposal

Lexxypwns · November 2016

Dude, you just don't get it, with your HoTs up an major mending the masters sword proc combined with KE makes you borderline unkillable while being offensive. Because you have so much healing, particularly on DK.

mrowmrif2 · November 2016

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Dude, you just don't get it, with your HoTs up an major mending the masters sword proc combined with KE makes you borderline unkillable while being offensive. Because you have so much healing, particularly on DK.

Unkillable at the expense of damage maybe with my current setup i guess - perhaps i need spriggans like your friend for the penetration to make up for the lack of burst i am experiencing and shorten fights so i dont get outlasted by folks with 2k+ stam regen. I could also be seeing what feels like lack of sustain because i am often 1v2+ when i pvp; up against multiple stamblades or magplars... i will keep testing different setups and see. I am not ruling out the build because i am more successful with this on the same toon than i used to be with hundings/NMG/1 bloodspawn + 1 kena back around TG patch. I just feel like Master sword is gimp compared to maelstrom anything. I would love to see them take away the max health bonus and add a 129 weapon damage bonus instead. Something!

Lexxypwns · November 2016

mrowmrif2 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Dude, you just don't get it, with your HoTs up an major mending the masters sword proc combined with KE makes you borderline unkillable while being offensive. Because you have so much healing, particularly on DK.

Unkillable at the expense of damage maybe with my current setup i guess - perhaps i need spriggans like your friend for the penetration to make up for the lack of burst i am experiencing and shorten fights so i dont get outlasted by folks with 2k+ stam regen. I could also be seeing what feels like lack of sustain because i am often 1v2+ when i pvp; up against multiple stamblades or magplars... i will keep testing different setups and see. I am not ruling out the build because i am more successful with this on the same toon than i used to be with hundings/NMG/1 bloodspawn + 1 kena back around TG patch. I just feel like Master sword is gimp compared to maelstrom anything. I would love to see them take away the max health bonus and add a 129 weapon damage bonus instead. Something!

If you're in heavy, try starting your burst with a heavy attack.

Derra · November 2016

I´m legitimately afraid - given the history zos has when buffing and nerfing things pvp related - that they might consider this absolutely nonsensical request.

May god have mercy on our souls.