Lets Balance Radiant Destruction

Balthyzar · July 2016

Why not? Let's add a cool down to cloak and mark while we are at it.

Drdeath20 · July 2016

Drdeath20 wrote: »

If you had to rank builds where would you rank a stamina and a Magicka templar?

Please list all

Stam sorc
Stam dragon knight
Stam nightblade
Magicka nightblade
Magicka templar
Stam templar
Magicka sorc
Magicka dragon knight

Is this about right?

thankyourat · July 2016

Balthyzar wrote: »

Why not? Let's add a cool down to cloak and mark while we are at it.

Lol nerf two skills that are balanced to make up for nerfing a execute that's over performing?

Zheg · July 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Sounds like NBs are going to be the new healers in all the raids. Kind of like when templars said sorcs would be the best healers with their pets!

INC fengrush ranting on stream about NB healers keeping people up with hots and healing ward. On a side note, you couldn't even play a pet build? That's like the easiest of every role in most mmos. Maybe if your clannfear could wrecking blow and dawnbreaker, you'd have enough to take down groups!?

arkansas_ESO · July 2016

Drdeath20 wrote: »

If you had to rank builds where would you rank a stamina and a Magicka templar?

Please list all

Magic Templar
Stamina Templar/Stamina Sorc (depends on what you're fighting against, for duels I'd say stamina Templar wins because of a purify and Major Mending, but for open world stamina Sorc's move speed is hard to beat)
Stamina NB
Stamina DK
Magic Sorcerer
Magic Nightblade
Magic Dragonknight

Drdeath20 · July 2016

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

If you had to rank builds where would you rank a stamina and a Magicka templar?

Please list all

Magic Templar

Stamina Templar/Stamina Sorc (depends on what you're fighting against, for duels I'd say stamina Templar wins because of a purify and Major Mending, but for open world stamina Sorc's move speed is hard to beat)

Stamina NB

Stamina DK

Magic Sorcerer

Magic Nightblade

Magic Dragonknight

What class do you main?

Van_0S · July 2016

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

If you had to rank builds where would you rank a stamina and a Magicka templar?

Please list all

Magic Templar

Stamina Templar/Stamina Sorc (depends on what you're fighting against, for duels I'd say stamina Templar wins because of a purify and Major Mending, but for open world stamina Sorc's move speed is hard to beat)

Stamina NB

Stamina DK

Magic Sorcerer

Magic Nightblade

Magic Dragonknight

Once, RD gets nerfed ! ( like Its dodgeable)
Then where does Magplar, stand in your list?
Edit:
No offence, but i am just curious to know !

Hempyre · July 2016

ZoM_Head wrote: »

TF EU server in Imperial City,

A group of 4 EP players jumped me on Nobles flag, one of them was doing nothing but using radiant destruction me from 100% health.

The whole fight took 40 seconds before i took one of them down. But Combat Metrics shows an insane 96.7% up time from that 1 player using radiant destruction on me. That means he/she was executing me from the very beginning and nearly till the very end, 40 seconds....of pressing one button.

One player hit you with Radiant for 40 seconds, you killed one of the 4 during that time...

Then you go on about some other OP templar nonsense, I didnt bother to quote.

Not seeing the OP here buddy, you mind pointing it out?

40 seconds worth of RD that you esentially ignored does not an OP skill make.

Had to edit, saw your second post.

Item 1. Does RD kill you in 2-3 seconds or can you live through it for 40? I'm confused.

Item 2. If in fact you die from. RD in 2-3 seconds, dude, check yo build...

Item 3. Were you being hit with RD with a 96.7% uptime, or was he healing as well? Cant have both buddy...

Item 4. Is there any part of your post that is based in fact or actual experience? Because sifting through the glaring contradictions in your story mixed in with my healthy scepticism and all I see in your post is conjecture and misinformation.

TARAFRAKA · July 2016

Hempyre wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

TF EU server in Imperial City,

A group of 4 EP players jumped me on Nobles flag, one of them was doing nothing but using radiant destruction me from 100% health.

The whole fight took 40 seconds before i took one of them down. But Combat Metrics shows an insane 96.7% up time from that 1 player using radiant destruction on me. That means he/she was executing me from the very beginning and nearly till the very end, 40 seconds....of pressing one button.

One player hit you with Radiant for 40 seconds, you killed one of the 4 during that time...

Then you go on about some other OP templar nonsense, I didnt bother to quote.

Not seeing the OP here buddy, you mind pointing it out?

40 seconds worth of RD that you esentially ignored does not an OP skill make.

Had to edit, saw your second post.

Item 1. Does RD kill you in 2-3 seconds or can you live through it for 40? I'm confused.

Item 2. If in fact you die from. RD in 2-3 seconds, dude, check yo build...

Iten 3. Were you being hit with RD with a 96.7% uptime, or was he healing as well? Cant have both buddy...

Item 4. Is there any part of your post that is based in fact or actual experience? Because sifting through the glaring contradictions in your story mixed in with my healthy scepticism and all I see in your post is conjecture and misinformation.

This. Yes. So much yes.

Zheg · July 2016

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

TF EU server in Imperial City,

A group of 4 EP players jumped me on Nobles flag, one of them was doing nothing but using radiant destruction me from 100% health.

The whole fight took 40 seconds before i took one of them down. But Combat Metrics shows an insane 96.7% up time from that 1 player using radiant destruction on me. That means he/she was executing me from the very beginning and nearly till the very end, 40 seconds....of pressing one button.

One player hit you with Radiant for 40 seconds, you killed one of the 4 during that time...

Then you go on about some other OP templar nonsense, I didnt bother to quote.

Not seeing the OP here buddy, you mind pointing it out?

40 seconds worth of RD that you esentially ignored does not an OP skill make.

Had to edit, saw your second post.

Item 1. Does RD kill you in 2-3 seconds or can you live through it for 40? I'm confused.

Item 2. If in fact you die from. RD in 2-3 seconds, dude, check yo build...

Iten 3. Were you being hit with RD with a 96.7% uptime, or was he healing as well? Cant have both buddy...

Item 4. Is there any part of your post that is based in fact or actual experience? Because sifting through the glaring contradictions in your story mixed in with my healthy scepticism and all I see in your post is conjecture and misinformation.

This. Yes. So much yes.

This is how much of the whining about jesus beam has gone. Again, in 6+ months ive yet to be shown an example of where the skill was actually overperforming and warranted a nerf as demonstrated by a fight. Every attempt has been exposed and failed.

But, #forumplars, best "argument" defending nerf calls yet. Them big bad templars making you defend your positions, they must be baddies.

krathos · July 2016

Honestly it is over performing but i don't think it overperforms by as much as people make it out to. Yes it is a powerful ability. Yes it could probably use a bit of tweaking. Honestly it's not even a real problem in 1v1 or small group fights.

Plenty of things over perform in this game - such is the nature of trying to balance a game where you can literally stack ridiculous stats and benefit both offensively and defensively from them.

Is it frustrating to be low health and feel like you've made an escape only to get zapped by a templar 40m away? Yes.

Is it frustrating to be successfully fighting a group of players 1vX only to have a couple templars in the back hold RD on you the entire time hoping you dip below that threshold? Yeppers.

The single biggest problem I have w/ RD is not even with the skill itself but w/ the lack of reliability of it breaking due to line of sight. This is true of most abilities but RD is just the most noticeable since it is a steady beam.

Most of the time it helps me figure out who to kill first anyways. Someone standing a bit back in a 1vX spamming RD on me while I'm at 100% screams "Kill me, not only am I a bad player but I am likely super squishy and will die super quick".

Also it might just be a small pleasure of mine to eat multiple RDs while in a 1vX.

Edit: oh and honestly I'd rather have someone spam radiant on me than some bombtard spammer.

Hempyre · July 2016

@krathos

I'm really trying not to hog the crap out of this thread, but it's hard... I do like your post in that your issues are not blown out of proportion, and I think it accurately conveys the issue most people actually have with RD.

Your first paragraph doesn't support your premise. If its not a problem in 1v1 or small group, then the issue would be large group. Specifically your points is paragraphs 3. & 4.
Point really, as it's the same one.

People are frustrated by hang back templars hitting with "hail Mary" RD's. Hmm, ya I get that, but, that's not over performing and you can't tell people how to play. Frankly, I use it all the time to call target, or keep the one or two at bay that cause the rest of the herd to rush. Frustrating? Good, it's supposed to break your plan.

As frustrating as it may be to be hit at range (under 40 btw) that's not overperforming.

Perhaps with cyro lag, LOS and range may be affected, (personally I find it breaks LOS just fine, as per the ad i chased around a damn tree last night forever..) However, those are lag issues not over performance issues.

juhasman · July 2016

Someone who knows how to do vote please make thread with ,,Do You think RD is OP" question. And options should be : Yes, No , I am magplar so noone cares what I think

ZoM_Head · July 2016

Hempyre wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

TF EU server in Imperial City,

A group of 4 EP players jumped me on Nobles flag, one of them was doing nothing but using radiant destruction me from 100% health.

The whole fight took 40 seconds before i took one of them down. But Combat Metrics shows an insane 96.7% up time from that 1 player using radiant destruction on me. That means he/she was executing me from the very beginning and nearly till the very end, 40 seconds....of pressing one button.

One player hit you with Radiant for 40 seconds, you killed one of the 4 during that time...

Then you go on about some other OP templar nonsense, I didnt bother to quote.

Not seeing the OP here buddy, you mind pointing it out?

40 seconds worth of RD that you esentially ignored does not an OP skill make.

Had to edit, saw your second post.

Item 1. Does RD kill you in 2-3 seconds or can you live through it for 40? I'm confused.

Item 2. If in fact you die from. RD in 2-3 seconds, dude, check yo build...

Item 3. Were you being hit with RD with a 96.7% uptime, or was he healing as well? Cant have both buddy...

Item 4. Is there any part of your post that is based in fact or actual experience? Because sifting through the glaring contradictions in your story mixed in with my healthy scepticism and all I see in your post is conjecture and misinformation.

As i said, i used everything i had to stay alive, 96% uptime from combat metrics so clearly not a 100% uptime on it. Combat metrics is also still in beta phase, it could be slightly off, or seriously off. That player was clearly healing as well, other wise, if combat metrics is spot on accurate), the remaining time would had been spent on that correct?.

I did mention it was a fluke case no? i also mentioned how i used pots, swarm, bashing him, spamming deep breath (its a heal and interrupt as well just to refresh your memory), flame lash etc.

I do not make stuff up, never did, dont and will not have it, not interested in any online glory here. I dont have a video or screen shot to back up my claims, i do have 2 others that were with me in the group that saw what happened, but doubt you or anyone will take stranger's word.

Again, in this one rare situation, the point i was making was that one player was hitting me with one skill from start to end. Your taking one fluke of a situation, where a very inexperienced player spamming one op skill (again, using every means possible to constantly focus him down) does not by any means sum up my, your's or anyones experience with how RD is at the moment, that is it fine as it is.

Drdeath20 · July 2016

People are more mad about massive zerg battles where they take alot of damage and their health bar is constantly fluctuating.
Yeah getting hit by 2 radiants in those battles suck. Usually Bcz your stamina is low and you bash off 1 radiant but you still have 1 on you. I get a ton of kills with it in major battles

I fought 2 templars and I was laughing bcz they both kept trying to radiant spam me. Ofcourse they both had around 200 or soo less CPs than me. They were sitting ducks locked in a channel.
They would of killed me if they would have used dark flare.

TARAFRAKA · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

TF EU server in Imperial City,

A group of 4 EP players jumped me on Nobles flag, one of them was doing nothing but using radiant destruction me from 100% health.

The whole fight took 40 seconds before i took one of them down. But Combat Metrics shows an insane 96.7% up time from that 1 player using radiant destruction on me. That means he/she was executing me from the very beginning and nearly till the very end, 40 seconds....of pressing one button.

One player hit you with Radiant for 40 seconds, you killed one of the 4 during that time...

Then you go on about some other OP templar nonsense, I didnt bother to quote.

Not seeing the OP here buddy, you mind pointing it out?

40 seconds worth of RD that you esentially ignored does not an OP skill make.

Had to edit, saw your second post.

Item 1. Does RD kill you in 2-3 seconds or can you live through it for 40? I'm confused.

Item 2. If in fact you die from. RD in 2-3 seconds, dude, check yo build...

Iten 3. Were you being hit with RD with a 96.7% uptime, or was he healing as well? Cant have both buddy...

Item 4. Is there any part of your post that is based in fact or actual experience? Because sifting through the glaring contradictions in your story mixed in with my healthy scepticism and all I see in your post is conjecture and misinformation.

This. Yes. So much yes.

This is how much of the whining about jesus beam has gone. Again, in 6+ months ive yet to be shown an example of where the skill was actually overperforming and warranted a nerf as demonstrated by a fight. Everything attempt has been exposed and failed.

But, #forumplars, best "argument" defending nerf calls yet. Them big bad templars making you defend your positions, they must be baddies.

See my post on the previous page @zheg. Curious on your thoughts.and I've said it once, I'll say it again, I'll say it twice. If I use a skill it's fine, if it kills me it's OP.

Zheg · July 2016

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

TF EU server in Imperial City,

A group of 4 EP players jumped me on Nobles flag, one of them was doing nothing but using radiant destruction me from 100% health.

The whole fight took 40 seconds before i took one of them down. But Combat Metrics shows an insane 96.7% up time from that 1 player using radiant destruction on me. That means he/she was executing me from the very beginning and nearly till the very end, 40 seconds....of pressing one button.

One player hit you with Radiant for 40 seconds, you killed one of the 4 during that time...

Then you go on about some other OP templar nonsense, I didnt bother to quote.

Not seeing the OP here buddy, you mind pointing it out?

40 seconds worth of RD that you esentially ignored does not an OP skill make.

Had to edit, saw your second post.

Item 1. Does RD kill you in 2-3 seconds or can you live through it for 40? I'm confused.

Item 2. If in fact you die from. RD in 2-3 seconds, dude, check yo build...

Iten 3. Were you being hit with RD with a 96.7% uptime, or was he healing as well? Cant have both buddy...

Item 4. Is there any part of your post that is based in fact or actual experience? Because sifting through the glaring contradictions in your story mixed in with my healthy scepticism and all I see in your post is conjecture and misinformation.

This. Yes. So much yes.

This is how much of the whining about jesus beam has gone. Again, in 6+ months ive yet to be shown an example of where the skill was actually overperforming and warranted a nerf as demonstrated by a fight. Everything attempt has been exposed and failed.

But, #forumplars, best "argument" defending nerf calls yet. Them big bad templars making you defend your positions, they must be baddies.

See my post on the previous page @zheg. Curious on your thoughts.and I've said it once, I'll say it again, I'll say it twice. If I use a skill it's fine, if it kills me it's OP.

Many of the people calling for nerfs defended broken crap when it favored them (and that says a lot considering I don't find RD broken at all). You're correct about this being the new #nerfsorc topic. The reason this gained such traction is because many of the vocal people ran stam builds and they had NO counters to their builds until RD was fixed to work on dodge roll again. They were none too happy. The combat team seems to be trending towards preventing/eliminating 1vX and groupVgiantzerg capabilities, jesus beam is clearly one against 1vX, and they are cranky about that too. Many people complaining have a shifting history of what they say was so broken about the skill even though the skill hasn't changed at all in quite a long time. They're fishing for nerfs, they aren't calling for a nerf because of sound analysis.

I've said in almost every single jesus beam thread - show me a video of the skill overperforming and I will start calling for nerfs. You'd think they'd want to do so if for no other reason than to get me to shut up and to make me eat my words, but not a SINGLE example video has been able to withstand basic analysis. It's because the skill is not broken, and the only examples they could realistically provide is one of them losing in like a 1v5 - which has no bearing on balance. Alas, we'll see 5 new threads pop up on this over the next month or so, they'll keep trying until ZOS caves.

arkansas_ESO · July 2016

Drdeath20 wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

If you had to rank builds where would you rank a stamina and a Magicka templar?

Please list all

Magic Templar

Stamina Templar/Stamina Sorc (depends on what you're fighting against, for duels I'd say stamina Templar wins because of a purify and Major Mending, but for open world stamina Sorc's move speed is hard to beat)

Stamina NB

Stamina DK

Magic Sorcerer

Magic Nightblade

Magic Dragonknight

What class do you main?

I've got a short attention span so I swap between classes frequently, but this past month my playtime has been largely spent playing magic Templar and stamina sorc. I've also got a magic NB, a stamina NB, a magic sorc, and a magic DK that I play a few times a week.

Van_0S wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

If you had to rank builds where would you rank a stamina and a Magicka templar?

Please list all

Magic Templar

Stamina Templar/Stamina Sorc (depends on what you're fighting against, for duels I'd say stamina Templar wins because of a purify and Major Mending, but for open world stamina Sorc's move speed is hard to beat)

Stamina NB

Stamina DK

Magic Sorcerer

Magic Nightblade

Magic Dragonknight

Once, RD gets nerfed ! ( like Its dodgeable)
Then where does Magplar, stand in your list?
Edit:
No offence, but i am just curious to know !

Still pretty high up, they'd definitely still be the strongest magicka class. If you take RD completely out of the equation, you've still got an incredibly tanky class that has great group utility in the form of Purify and Breath of Life.

krathos · July 2016

Hempyre wrote: »

Your first paragraph doesn't support your premise. If its not a problem in 1v1 or small group, then the issue would be large group. Specifically your points is paragraphs 3. & 4.
Point really, as it's the same one.

Perhaps with cyro lag, LOS and range may be affected, (personally I find it breaks LOS just fine, as per the ad i chased around a damn tree last night forever..) However, those are lag issues not over performance issues.

@Hempyre

TBH i didn't really even think about large group warfare. I am solo 99% of the time and the rest is small group stuff. I guess I meant my only times I have issues with it is in 1vX (not 1v1 or when I am grouped).

I did say LOS was a game issue not with the skill. Just that it is more obvious with RD because its a held channel. The issue is less w/ LOS on walls and more about smaller objects like pillars or ruin fragments that the game doesn't pick up but obviously should break LOS on all abilities.

It's ok to admit that an ability is acutely over performing. The damage RD is capable of could be tuned down a very small amount given the many other benefits it receives OR make the range equivalent to gap closers. But, like I said before, so many abilities in this game should be tweaked. The hate for RD stems from the frustration it causes.

edit: BTW I'm not on this thread calling for a nerf to RD or even any changes. Just expressing my thoughts. I have thoughts about other abilities as well including ones I run in my own build.

Wycks · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »

Let's get back on topic it's the most frustrating spell in the game and the solutions are simple (though might require slightly more skill)

Any one would be acceptable and not really a nerf.

1. Make it dodge rollable
2. Require execute range
3. Make it so it will not execute unless the first hit is on an already low health target..aka no pre-beaming.
4. Give temps a better gap closer or run buff so they stop complaining.

False, bombard.

False again, every one of those are significant nerfs, and making it dodgeable is a huge buff to every stam build in the game.

I agree bombard is more frustrating currently but it is used way less, does way less dmg, can be dodge rolled, and has recently been fixed ( according to patch notes). Jesus Beam has none of this history, its been bad since day one and continues to be bad.

We need some solutions, no one can justify the toxic gameplay this ability brings to the game in its current form.

Zheg · July 2016

bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »

Let's get back on topic it's the most frustrating spell in the game and the solutions are simple (though might require slightly more skill)

Any one would be acceptable and not really a nerf.

1. Make it dodge rollable
2. Require execute range
3. Make it so it will not execute unless the first hit is on an already low health target..aka no pre-beaming.
4. Give temps a better gap closer or run buff so they stop complaining.

False, bombard.

False again, every one of those are significant nerfs, and making it dodgeable is a huge buff to every stam build in the game.

I agree bombard is more frustrating currently but it is used way less, does way less dmg, can be dodge rolled, and has recently been fixed.

Jesus Beam has none of this history, its been bad since day one and continues to be bad.

It hasnt been fixed, not even close. People seemed so happy to see those patch notes, but read between the lines and youll realize its a garbage attempt to fix a problem they created and dont want to revert. You have to be snared to not be permarooted. For magicka builds, this means you cannot purge/cleanse a root, so you must either dodge or use mist form/forward momentum - thats the same exact situation we're in right now.

People should be disappointed about those patch notes, not happy.

xANTIxMATTERx · July 2016

No way I can read all these posts but IMO just make the execute mechanic start at 25 or 20 percent and it will be balanced.

Winnamine · July 2016

@Nifty2g Nifty, you're hurting my heart with your nerf templar thread

Zheg · July 2016

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

No way I can read all these posts but IMO just make the execute mechanic start at 25 or 20 percent and it will be balanced.

*worse than impale you mean - gives you all of the drawbacks of a channel but do the same thing as an instant cast ability. What a fantastic idea. Still play a stam build?

Sandman929 · July 2016

Sometimes I think people want all the classes to have to exact same abilities, just with different looking animations. Templars need a cloak while we're "balancing".

RD is fine. Getting two-shotted into execute range by another stam build while the beam is on you might need some looking into.

xANTIxMATTERx · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

No way I can read all these posts but IMO just make the execute mechanic start at 25 or 20 percent and it will be balanced.

*worse than impale you mean - gives you all of the drawbacks of a channel but do the same thing as an instant cast ability. What a fantastic idea. Still play a stam build?

I play most builds actually. The first character I cleared vet maw on was my magplar. They could just bump up impale and mages wrath to where radiant is if you think that's better. Have you ever used radiant in pve in a veteran trial setting? Minutes straight of spamming one ability that does insane dps. I personally don't mind what they do to it in the long run but it is definitely way too strong right now.

xANTIxMATTERx · July 2016

Radiant also gets boosted from both thaumaturge and elemental expert. Impale and mages wrath only benefit from elemental expert. So the drawbacks of it being a channel aren't really that bad

Winnamine · July 2016

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

No way I can read all these posts but IMO just make the execute mechanic start at 25 or 20 percent and it will be balanced.

*worse than impale you mean - gives you all of the drawbacks of a channel but do the same thing as an instant cast ability. What a fantastic idea. Still play a stam build?

I play most builds actually. The first character I cleared vet maw on was my magplar. They could just bump up impale and mages wrath to where radiant is if you think that's better. Have you ever used radiant in pve in a veteran trial setting? Minutes straight of spamming one ability that does insane dps. I personally don't mind what they do to it in the long run but it is definitely way too strong right now.

Oh Anti

I'm just glad you're complaining about rd here in the Alliance War section rather than the pve forum where the devs might actually see it

WreckfulAbandon · July 2016

The problem with Magplars is the Reactive Armor bug in conjunction with having easy access to well over 100% additional healing received. 30% additional healing received for a 2pc set is too good not to use.

The fact that they have this kind of survivability coupled with a great execute like RD is the problem, not RD itself.

In other news, Stamina builds have superior damage, mobility, healing, and skills. But let's focus on RD, after all stamina sucked at launch so let's gloss over its current ascendancy.

xANTIxMATTERx · July 2016

Winnamine wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

No way I can read all these posts but IMO just make the execute mechanic start at 25 or 20 percent and it will be balanced.

*worse than impale you mean - gives you all of the drawbacks of a channel but do the same thing as an instant cast ability. What a fantastic idea. Still play a stam build?

I play most builds actually. The first character I cleared vet maw on was my magplar. They could just bump up impale and mages wrath to where radiant is if you think that's better. Have you ever used radiant in pve in a veteran trial setting? Minutes straight of spamming one ability that does insane dps. I personally don't mind what they do to it in the long run but it is definitely way too strong right now.

Oh Anti
I'm just glad you're complaining about rd here in the Alliance War section rather than the pve forum where the devs might actually see it

Maybe if they had a trials section of the forums

Either way, that's just my opinion on the matter. 23 pages of opinions so far in this thread and counting!