How I would like Draining Shot to work.

kojou · July 2016

I have been messing around with a bow wielding Stamina Dragon Knight off and on trying to get various things leveled to make her viable for end game. Ultimately I will most likely be using dual wield as primary and bow as an off bar weapon. I have tried at times to make a successful build with bow as the primary weapon, but have never quite succeeded. The bow skill line is just not useful for much more than applying endless hail and poison injection in PvE, and sniping in PvP.

I'm sure there is someone that is going to post a build to prove me wrong, and actually I would be pleasantly surprised to see it, but I haven't been able to come up with one that I am happy with...

My proposal that I think would really help bow builds is to change Draining Shot. Currently my tool tip states "Blast an enemy with an explosive arrow dealing 5544 Physical Damage, knocking them back 6 meters, and disorienting them for 5 seconds. After the disorient ends, you heal for 8443 Health."

My first problem with the skill is the way the heal works. From what I have found you only get the heal if the target is stunned and if the target doesn't die before the disorient ends. This means it is useless on low health targets that die from the Draining Shot, bosses, and CC immune targets. If a boss does not have adds then you have to look somewhere else for healing. The first change I would propose is to make it initiate a HoT (8443 for 5 seconds in my case) on the initial damage. If the amount needs to be reduced to be balanced then I am fine with that, but please make it so it gives the heal on initial damage rather than how it is now.

My second problem is the amount of damage it does vs the range it has. For example, Flying blade deals 7465 damage, a range of 28 meters, reduces movement speed 50% for 6 seconds, grants Major brutality for 20 seconds, and costs the same amount of stamina. It is tough to compare stamina to magicka since the damage formulas work a little different, but Destructive Clench has a range of 17 meters and does more damage on my magicka builds. Lets not even bother comparing it to Funnel Health on my Magi-Blade... I would like to see it at least have a range of 17 meters like Destructive Clench does and have the damage increased by 25% to be more in line with Flying Blade.

I understand that the amounts may have to be adjusted to be balanced, but in general I think this still is in need of some help and a buff, and it could make bow a lot more viable as a solo weapon.

Vythri · July 2016

I've been saying for a long time now that the heal needs to proc no matter if the target is CC immune or not. Currently the heal is incredibly unreliable. Like you said, the values may need to be adjusted accordingly if that change happened. Just have to be careful to not nerf it so hard that it's terrible in PvP, and nobody would use it anyway. If you go the way of the HoT, make it so the HoT can't be reapplied until the current HoT wears off or something.

As for the range of the skill, it's a complete joke that it's only 10m. Gap closers are twice the distance, and there are tons of other magicka based CC's that are ~28m. Why is bow's CC only 10m, when the only way to get the maximum damage out of using a bow is to keep your enemies at range. It literally makes zero sense. The skill should be at least as long as the longest ranged gap closer.

kojou · July 2016

Vythri wrote: »

I've been saying for a long time now that the heal needs to proc no matter if the target is CC immune or not. Currently the heal is incredibly unreliable. Like you said, the values may need to be adjusted accordingly if that change happened. Just have to be careful to not nerf it so hard that it's terrible in PvP, and nobody would use it anyway. If you go the way of the HoT, make it so the HoT can't be reapplied until the current HoT wears off or something.

As for the range of the skill, it's a complete joke that it's only 10m. Gap closers are twice the distance, and there are tons of other magicka based CC's that are ~28m. Why is bow's CC only 10m, when the only way to get the maximum damage out of using a bow is to keep your enemies at range. It literally makes zero sense. The skill should be at least as long as the longest ranged gap closer.

If I were the developer, I would just make the HoT refresh on the next cast. An 8,443 point heal over 5 seconds is not that powerful anyway, but it would be enough to sustain your health if you are careful. I suppose once I PvP on this toon enough to get Vigor the point will be moot anyway, but until then I have to slot 2 Handed to get Momentum, or use Green Dragon Blood to get heals. Don't even get me started about Green Dragon Blood...

Toc de Malsvi · July 2016

The heal actually works quite well in pvp and can be strong. I didn't think it would, but after trying it out it does work very well, mostly because you can count on players to gap close to you thus putting them in range to be hit with it. It would be nice to have a longer range.

For PVE for competitive dps with bow as a primary weapon you need to be a NB or Sorcerer, preferably Khajit. For PVP DK's make excellent bow builds.

Vythri · July 2016

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The heal actually works quite well in pvp and can be strong. I didn't think it would, but after trying it out it does work very well, mostly because you can count on players to gap close to you thus putting them in range to be hit with it. It would be nice to have a longer range.

For PVE for competitive dps with bow as a primary weapon you need to be a NB or Sorcerer, preferably Khajit. For PVP DK's make excellent bow builds.

Except if you're ganking... which is what you have to do as a bow user, they will be CC immune when they gap close you from being stunned by you from stealth. Also, there are pots that make players CC immune, and there are other players out there that CC your target.

It's just not reliable, especially with the 10m cast range. When I want a heal, I don't want to merely hope the guy isn't immume to CC's.

Anti_Virus · July 2016

First the range needs to be increased to 20m ot more its just plain stupid to get in melee range just to stun people

Second the disorient needs to be changed to a knock down and the heal should proc on the knock down that way when your target has a doy on them they don't have a free CC break.

kojou · July 2016

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The heal actually works quite well in pvp and can be strong. I didn't think it would, but after trying it out it does work very well, mostly because you can count on players to gap close to you thus putting them in range to be hit with it. It would be nice to have a longer range.

For PVE for competitive dps with bow as a primary weapon you need to be a NB or Sorcerer, preferably Khajit. For PVP DK's make excellent bow builds.

I disagree that sorc or Nightblade is any better for a bow build than a Dragon Knight in PvE. I haven't tried a Sorc, but I have rolled a Nightblade, and while the whole ganking aspect was fun, it was still just as ineffective as a solo weapon.

I will probably get some laughs for saying this, but I think a Templar would make the best solo bow build. With Repentance and Javelin a Stamplar would have a reasonable ranged stamina based stun, and a "free" heal to top off allowing them to save Vigor for the fights when it is really needed.

I am digressing a little here though... I would really rather discuss a hopeful change to Draining Shot to make it a little less useless.

Toc de Malsvi · July 2016

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The heal actually works quite well in pvp and can be strong. I didn't think it would, but after trying it out it does work very well, mostly because you can count on players to gap close to you thus putting them in range to be hit with it. It would be nice to have a longer range.

For PVE for competitive dps with bow as a primary weapon you need to be a NB or Sorcerer, preferably Khajit. For PVP DK's make excellent bow builds.

I disagree that sorc or Nightblade is any better for a bow build than a Dragon Knight in PvE. I haven't tried a Sorc, but I have rolled a Nightblade, and while the whole ganking aspect was fun, it was still just as ineffective as a solo weapon.

I will probably get some laughs for saying this, but I think a Templar would make the best solo bow build. With Repentance and Javelin a Stamplar would have a reasonable ranged stamina based stun, and a "free" heal to top off allowing them to save Vigor for the fights when it is really needed.

I am digressing a little here though... I would really rather discuss a hopeful change to Draining Shot to make it a little less useless.

Ok so lets just consider, as a DK what does a DK bring for dps from ranged? You can get minor brutality(which everyone should have because its a group buff), you can get Major Savagery, which everyone also has through fighters guild. What other bonus' to damage do DK's bring from range? 40% to fully charged heavy attacks, which is a DPS loss due to how long it takes to charge.

NB's get Minor Berserk, 2% crit for every assassination skill slotted, 10% more critical damage, plus both the buffs listed above because both of those buffs are available either outside the DK tree or as a group buff.

Sorc's get 8% more stamina, 11% to all heavy attacks, 5% more physical damage, 15% ultimate cost reduction(more ults more damage), Implosion(not great for adds, great for ranged execute damage on a boss).

It's not even close, DK's are way worse PVE archers, DK's cannot match up when it comes to pure output of the other two classes.

Stun's are not important for PVE and you don't need a stamina based stun. Save vigor? LMAO! Vigor is cheap as heck there is no reason to "save" it.

PVE is about dps, it is not about utility every class has more than enough utility for every encounter. The weapon skill lines themselves have more than enough utility. It's these ignorant comments that cause people to disrespect bow users.

kojou · July 2016

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The heal actually works quite well in pvp and can be strong. I didn't think it would, but after trying it out it does work very well, mostly because you can count on players to gap close to you thus putting them in range to be hit with it. It would be nice to have a longer range.

For PVE for competitive dps with bow as a primary weapon you need to be a NB or Sorcerer, preferably Khajit. For PVP DK's make excellent bow builds.

I disagree that sorc or Nightblade is any better for a bow build than a Dragon Knight in PvE. I haven't tried a Sorc, but I have rolled a Nightblade, and while the whole ganking aspect was fun, it was still just as ineffective as a solo weapon.

I will probably get some laughs for saying this, but I think a Templar would make the best solo bow build. With Repentance and Javelin a Stamplar would have a reasonable ranged stamina based stun, and a "free" heal to top off allowing them to save Vigor for the fights when it is really needed.

I am digressing a little here though... I would really rather discuss a hopeful change to Draining Shot to make it a little less useless.

Ok so lets just consider, as a DK what does a DK bring for dps from ranged? You can get minor brutality(which everyone should have because its a group buff), you can get Major Savagery, which everyone also has through fighters guild. What other bonus' to damage do DK's bring from range? 40% to fully charged heavy attacks, which is a DPS loss due to how long it takes to charge.

NB's get Minor Berserk, 2% crit for every assassination skill slotted, 10% more critical damage, plus both the buffs listed above because both of those buffs are available either outside the DK tree or as a group buff.

Sorc's get 8% more stamina, 11% to all heavy attacks, 5% more physical damage, 15% ultimate cost reduction(more ults more damage), Implosion(not great for adds, great for ranged execute damage on a boss).

It's not even close, DK's are way worse PVE archers, DK's cannot match up when it comes to pure output of the other two classes.

Stun's are not important for PVE and you don't need a stamina based stun. Save vigor? LMAO! Vigor is cheap as heck there is no reason to "save" it.

PVE is about dps, it is not about utility every class has more than enough utility for every encounter. The weapon skill lines themselves have more than enough utility. It's these ignorant comments that cause people to disrespect bow users.

I see where the disconnect is now... You are thinking in terms of group and I am thinking about solo.

In a group yes, raw damage output is what you want from your DPS, but I am not going to slot Draining Shot in a group where I have a dedicated healer. I am going to slot more DoTs and buffs. Then again, in a group dungeon setting I am going to use bow to apply Endless Hail and Poison Injection, then switch to dual wield to apply Rending Slashes, Venomous Claw, Noxious Breath, and Rapid Strikes to get maximum DPS...which goes back to my complaint of bow really being only good for applying Endless Hail and Poison Injection.

I am not disrespecting bow. I have done and know you can do adequate DPS with it, but I can do better DPS if I get into Melee range and apply more DoTs.

Keep in mind the reason I made this post was because I wanted to level up Bow on my DK, and was trying to use Draining Shot as a heal and I don't think it functions adequately. I also had the idea that if it did 25% more damage and had a range of 17 M that I could actually use it in a weave in fights where I need to be ranged.

Vythri · July 2016

17m is still probably too short. The range should at least be the distance of the other gap closers in the game. Especially since those gap closers can be spammed, and Scattershot and it's morphs can't (CC immunity)

kojou · July 2016

The reason I selected 17 meters is because there is a precedent for it with Destructive Clench, and because Shield Charge, Critical Rush, and Unrelenting Grip are all at 22 meters. If Draining Shot had a range of 17 Meters and a knock back of 5 meters then that puts your target at exactly 22 meters which means you can step back 1 meter and be safe from a gap closer, but if you aren't careful you could get a huge Critical Rush on you which IMO is balanced.

I play a few different builds, so my incentive is for balance to make all of them fun, not to make a particular one over powered. I think a distance over 17 Meters (especially if the heal was fixed) would make Draining Shot a little over powered.

Vythri · July 2016

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

The reason I selected 17 meters is because there is a precedent for it with Destructive Clench, and because Shield Charge, Critical Rush, and Unrelenting Grip are all at 22 meters. If Draining Shot had a range of 17 Meters and a knock back of 5 meters then that puts your target at exactly 22 meters which means you can step back 1 meter and be safe from a gap closer, but if you aren't careful you could get a huge Critical Rush on you which IMO is balanced.

I play a few different builds, so my incentive is for balance to make all of them fun, not to make a particular one over powered. I think a distance over 17 Meters (especially if the heal was fixed) would make Draining Shot a little over powered.

That's actually a good point that I didn't think about.

Toc de Malsvi · July 2016

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

I see where the disconnect is now... You are thinking in terms of group and I am thinking about solo.

In a group yes, raw damage output is what you want from your DPS, but I am not going to slot Draining Shot in a group where I have a dedicated healer. I am going to slot more DoTs and buffs. Then again, in a group dungeon setting I am going to use bow to apply Endless Hail and Poison Injection, then switch to dual wield to apply Rending Slashes, Venomous Claw, Noxious Breath, and Rapid Strikes to get maximum DPS...which goes back to my complaint of bow really being only good for applying Endless Hail and Poison Injection.

I am not disrespecting bow. I have done and know you can do adequate DPS with it, but I can do better DPS if I get into Melee range and apply more DoTs.

Keep in mind the reason I made this post was because I wanted to level up Bow on my DK, and was trying to use Draining Shot as a heal and I don't think it functions adequately. I also had the idea that if it did 25% more damage and had a range of 17 M that I could actually use it in a weave in fights where I need to be ranged.

Yes I was addressing this part of your statement:

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

I have been messing around with a bow wielding Stamina Dragon Knight off and on trying to get various things leveled to make her viable for end game. Ultimately I will most likely be using dual wield as primary and bow as an off bar weapon. I have tried at times to make a successful build with bow as the primary weapon, but have never quite succeeded. The bow skill line is just not useful for much more than applying endless hail and poison injection in PvE, and sniping in PvP.

I'm not sure what you are doing in PVE solo that you are planning on relying on draining shot as a heal. It does seem to be buggy as far as getting the heal off of NPC's. It performs quite well in PVP though when used on top of vigor/rally. You can get very large heals from it at times and although I would like a knockback/knockdown and more range I do not think it is necessary. I use the bow in PVP and I do not use snipe and I have no trouble performance wise.

There is only 1 hard counter than completely negates bow primary and that is spamming reflects. While both Magicka DK's and Templar's have access to a reflect mechanic only Magicka DK's consistently use the reflect. Magicka DK population is very low so this is a non issue 90% of the time. Most of the time even on a Magicka DK you just need to wait for the reflect to drop, usually this can happen when they try to go offensive. So you can charge up a heavy and wait for the reflect bubble to disappear then blast them with the heavy+draining shot, this usually will give you enough offense to force a stale mate as they go defensive again.

The game is stacked to make range weaker no doubt, and 100% reflect is stacked to make a pure ranged build sub optimal but is is very very doable. I only commented because I though draining shot was going to be garbage but after playing around with it in PVP it turned out to work very well.