Skill cost is higher that resource pool size - is this intended?

estera · June 2016

While the cost of Rapid Maneuver and Caltrops skills is 8100 stamina, my Khajiit character Stamina pool without CP invested into "green" tree is only 7958.
These skills are cannot be used unless I actually allocate some stamina CP.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, is this an intended mechanic or design oversight?

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · June 2016

Ran into the same issue on my Altmer Magicka Nightblade.

And is it just me, or does both Magicka and Stamina regeneration seem to be moving more slowly since DB went live? On my Bosmer Stamblade, I was able to get 8-9 Shadowy Disguises or Crippling Grasps off back to back between blue drinks and CP invested into Arcanist. Now it seems like I'm tanking my Magicka pool into Oblivion with 3-4 casts.

Does the new meta intend for our off-pool to be nerfed away?

Sharee · June 2016

My hypothesis:

The cost of abilities scales with your level. Your level used to be the veteran rank, and any CP you had were 'extra'. Now, your CP *is* your level, that means the cost of abilities takes into account how many CP you have, and is scaled up accordingly. If you do not spend the CP, it is basically the same as (under the old system) a v1 character with ability costs scaled as if he was v16.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

Ran into the same issue on my Altmer Magicka Nightblade.

And is it just me, or does both Magicka and Stamina regeneration seem to be moving more slowly since DB went live? On my Bosmer Stamblade, I was able to get 8-9 Shadowy Disguises or Crippling Grasps off back to back between blue drinks and CP invested into Arcanist. Now it seems like I'm tanking my Magicka pool into Oblivion with 3-4 casts.

Does the new meta intend for our off-pool to be nerfed away?

Before, ability costs did not take CP into account. How much your disguises/grasps cost was only dependent on your level/veteran rank. That means the higher your CP, the cheaper (relatively speaking) your abilities were, because the CP increased your resource pool. Now that your CP acts as a 'level', ability costs are scaled to that 'level'.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · June 2016

Sharee wrote: »

Before, ability costs did not take CP into account. How much your disguises/grasps cost was only dependent on your level/veteran rank. That means the higher your CP, the cheaper (relatively speaking) your abilities were, because the CP increased your resource pool. Now that your CP acts as a 'level', ability costs are scaled to that 'level'.

That makes a certain amount of sense, but I was sitting at VR11 when DB came online.

Would Magicka/Stamina costs have jumped that much had I hit VR16 before DB went live? If so, I guess I was in for a rude awakening either way. LOL!

Tdroid · June 2016

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Before, ability costs did not take CP into account. How much your disguises/grasps cost was only dependent on your level/veteran rank. That means the higher your CP, the cheaper (relatively speaking) your abilities were, because the CP increased your resource pool. Now that your CP acts as a 'level', ability costs are scaled to that 'level'.

That makes a certain amount of sense, but I was sitting at VR11 when DB came online.

Would Magicka/Stamina costs have jumped that much had I hit VR16 before DB went live? If so, I guess I was in for a rude awakening either way. LOL!

I don' t think they would, as I noticed on my V16 chars that resource management became a lot harder with the launch of the patch. One of the reasons for this, I think, is that prior to the DB launch, the cost increase in veteran ranks did not take into account the added resourcemanagement of the CPs. Now, on the other hand, when every 10 points of CP increases your ability cost, the resource management aspect seems to have been brought more in line. Pretty sure Mooncalf, Arcanist, Warlod and whatever the other magicka one is called are near mandatory for most characters now, even more than they used to be.

I pity the tanks, who now have to balance those with the block cost reduction passive, in addition to having to use Sturdy to make up for the loss of Bracing.

Duiwel · June 2016

Also saw this OP, funny thing is after popping food and usind rapids mine said it would last for 49 710 days 5hours ... that's a whooping 136 years.

(note it was just a bug because I didn't actually have the speed buff anymore

) but I laughed quite hard

Aisle9 · June 2016

Caltrops cost a truckload of stamina, yes, it is intended.

And, no, the cost doesn't scale with the level, my lvl4 mules have the same cost as my cp250 NB.

Tri-food is your friend

SlayerTheDragon · June 2016

estera wrote: »

... cost of Rapid Maneuver and Caltrops skills is 8100 stamina...

This is so stupid. They might as well just remove these skills from the game.

Turelus · June 2016

I'm guessing an oversight on the new system.

I personally wish they would remove the attribute gains from CP and the damage from attributes to get rid of this double rewards per points.

CP points spent should increase the power via the star you chose (what you see if what you get)
Attribute bars should be how much you can use a skill (not the power of it as well)

The game would need a large balance for that though, however it would also help bring back some of the choice regarding gear, should I look for more damage or more attribute, rather than attribute gives both.

Bdawwg · June 2016

What happens in the no cp campaign then? Where they just mean your level and give you no advantage at all. Resource management there is already tricky, no need to make it more difficult now

olsborg · June 2016

Most of my skills went up in cost by about ~200-300 stamina/magicka since patch.

Aisle9 · June 2016

Bdawwg wrote: »

What happens in the no cp campaign then? Where they just mean your level and give you no advantage at all. Resource management there is already tricky, no need to make it more difficult now

Eh, I just made a willow's path set for Asura's star... dark days are coming, considering there are also poisons for 60% increased cost of stuff...

And regeneration poisons...

SleepyTroll · June 2016

What happens when every patch they keep balancing for CP. Can't wait tell they raise the cap but at the same time make changes so that it's like they never raised it.

DurzoBlint13 · June 2016

is this in PvP? Are you getting hit with one of the new poisons that increases cost of stamina or magica skills?

Clerics1985 · June 2016

DurzoBlint13 wrote: »

is this in PvP? Are you getting hit with one of the new poisons that increases cost of stamina or magica skills?

honestly think those kinds of poisons shouldn't exist, or at least not to the extent they do, 60% increase Smh how the hell is anyone going to Regulate that

yodased · June 2016

estera wrote: »

While the cost of Rapid Maneuver and Caltrops skills is 8100 stamina, my Khajiit character Stamina pool without CP invested into "green" tree is only 7958.
These skills are cannot be used unless I actually allocate some stamina CP.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, is this an intended mechanic or design oversight?

Then allocate champion points into reducing the cost. 50 points puts that skill gets your magic based character one caltrops or rapid per regen cycle.

Pretty simple to me, if you are basing your character around a magic pool, the 'best' stamina skills should be ridiculously expensive for you to cast.

If you are a stamina based character, the best 'magic' skills should be ridiculously expensive as well.

A magic NB relying on caltrops for AOE/Stealth detection is a broken mechanic in my opinion as you have too many tools already to be able to spam something like that.

Clerics1985 · June 2016

yodased wrote: »

estera wrote: »

While the cost of Rapid Maneuver and Caltrops skills is 8100 stamina, my Khajiit character Stamina pool without CP invested into "green" tree is only 7958.
These skills are cannot be used unless I actually allocate some stamina CP.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, is this an intended mechanic or design oversight?

estera wrote: »

While the cost of Rapid Maneuver and Caltrops skills is 8100 stamina, my Khajiit character Stamina pool without CP invested into "green" tree is only 7958.
These skills are cannot be used unless I actually allocate some stamina CP.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, is this an intended mechanic or design oversight?

Then allocate champion points into reducing the cost. 50 points puts that skill gets your magic based character one caltrops or rapid per regen cycle.

Pretty simple to me, if you are basing your character around a magic pool, the 'best' stamina skills should be ridiculously expensive for you to cast.

If you are a stamina based character, the best 'magic' skills should be ridiculously expensive as well.

A magic NB relying on caltrops for AOE/Stealth detection is a broken mechanic in my opinion as you have too many tools already to be able to spam something like that.

but I thought CP was just supposed to increase what we already have, Not Become it's Own Crutch. So you are Stating that we are REQUIRED to dump points into areas of the tree just to Reach a Stam cost for a Skill???? that we Literally Cannot Cast skills at a certain point?

linlilia · June 2016

They cost a ton because they are so powerful. At the upper levels you have to start allocating CP in vet ranks. But also makes sure you put skill points in different area passive points to decrease the cost of things. Some of these cut the cost of skills. But as a magicka player I can't use these high end stamina skills. Just the life is.

yodased · June 2016

Clerics1985 wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

estera wrote: »

While the cost of Rapid Maneuver and Caltrops skills is 8100 stamina, my Khajiit character Stamina pool without CP invested into "green" tree is only 7958.
These skills are cannot be used unless I actually allocate some stamina CP.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, is this an intended mechanic or design oversight?

estera wrote: »

While the cost of Rapid Maneuver and Caltrops skills is 8100 stamina, my Khajiit character Stamina pool without CP invested into "green" tree is only 7958.
These skills are cannot be used unless I actually allocate some stamina CP.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, is this an intended mechanic or design oversight?

Then allocate champion points into reducing the cost. 50 points puts that skill gets your magic based character one caltrops or rapid per regen cycle.

Pretty simple to me, if you are basing your character around a magic pool, the 'best' stamina skills should be ridiculously expensive for you to cast.

If you are a stamina based character, the best 'magic' skills should be ridiculously expensive as well.

A magic NB relying on caltrops for AOE/Stealth detection is a broken mechanic in my opinion as you have too many tools already to be able to spam something like that.

but I thought CP was just supposed to increase what we already have, Not Become it's Own Crutch. So you are Stating that we are REQUIRED to dump points into areas of the tree just to Reach a Stam cost for a Skill???? that we Literally Cannot Cast skills at a certain point?

Champion points ARE WHAT YOU ARE, not INCREASE IT. It's horizontal progression, not vertical. The VR system + champion was like that, but not any more.

Your champion point allocation is quite effectively, you.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · June 2016

Clerics1985 wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

estera wrote: »

While the cost of Rapid Maneuver and Caltrops skills is 8100 stamina, my Khajiit character Stamina pool without CP invested into "green" tree is only 7958.
These skills are cannot be used unless I actually allocate some stamina CP.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, is this an intended mechanic or design oversight?

estera wrote: »

While the cost of Rapid Maneuver and Caltrops skills is 8100 stamina, my Khajiit character Stamina pool without CP invested into "green" tree is only 7958.
These skills are cannot be used unless I actually allocate some stamina CP.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, is this an intended mechanic or design oversight?

Then allocate champion points into reducing the cost. 50 points puts that skill gets your magic based character one caltrops or rapid per regen cycle.

Pretty simple to me, if you are basing your character around a magic pool, the 'best' stamina skills should be ridiculously expensive for you to cast.

If you are a stamina based character, the best 'magic' skills should be ridiculously expensive as well.

A magic NB relying on caltrops for AOE/Stealth detection is a broken mechanic in my opinion as you have too many tools already to be able to spam something like that.

but I thought CP was just supposed to increase what we already have, Not Become it's Own Crutch. So you are Stating that we are REQUIRED to dump points into areas of the tree just to Reach a Stam cost for a Skill???? that we Literally Cannot Cast skills at a certain point?

Then you thought wrong. There were post on the PTS explaining developers mind set on some of these changes. They all pretty much came down to this, after this change if you spec all the way into (whatever new mechanic here) you should see no change in whatever it was.

So basically we made new stuff that would make you more powerful, but then nerfed the old stuff. So if you go all in you can come out about where you were.

dRudE · June 2016

These PVP skills aren't supposed to be able to be spammed by by hybrid classes, they have always cost a lot and need a proper(I get the feeling I'll be hated for saying this by filthy casuals)min maxed build to keep these buffs applied in group and raid formats. A mag build isn't supposed to keep caltrops on the enemy, just as a stamina build isn't going to be expected to be the one to purge through a battle.

Yes you can use opposite resource support skills on any build, and yes you will get some benefit from doing it but if everyone could use everything wouldn't that just ruin diversity?

DurzoBlint13 · June 2016

Clerics1985 wrote: »

DurzoBlint13 wrote: »

is this in PvP? Are you getting hit with one of the new poisons that increases cost of stamina or magica skills?

honestly think those kinds of poisons shouldn't exist, or at least not to the extent they do, 60% increase Smh how the hell is anyone going to Regulate that

yeah I don't think I like it either but I am on ps4 so I have no idea how it works yet. I did hear that there is a 10 sec cool down on the proc, only 20% chance to proc, and that the poisons get weaker over time....but I can not say how that plays out in game without testing

kuro-dono · June 2016

Bdawwg wrote: »

What happens in the no cp campaign then? Where they just mean your level and give you no advantage at all. Resource management there is already tricky, no need to make it more difficult now

lol. non cp campaign. Azura pc eu is sooooooooooo much better now that the ranks disappeared. IC is easy to solo aswell.
Dark brotherhood propably did way better +++ to azura than cp enabled campaigns.

Cherryblossom · June 2016

yodased wrote: »

Clerics1985 wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

estera wrote: »

While the cost of Rapid Maneuver and Caltrops skills is 8100 stamina, my Khajiit character Stamina pool without CP invested into "green" tree is only 7958.
These skills are cannot be used unless I actually allocate some stamina CP.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, is this an intended mechanic or design oversight?

estera wrote: »

While the cost of Rapid Maneuver and Caltrops skills is 8100 stamina, my Khajiit character Stamina pool without CP invested into "green" tree is only 7958.
These skills are cannot be used unless I actually allocate some stamina CP.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, is this an intended mechanic or design oversight?

Then allocate champion points into reducing the cost. 50 points puts that skill gets your magic based character one caltrops or rapid per regen cycle.

Pretty simple to me, if you are basing your character around a magic pool, the 'best' stamina skills should be ridiculously expensive for you to cast.

If you are a stamina based character, the best 'magic' skills should be ridiculously expensive as well.

A magic NB relying on caltrops for AOE/Stealth detection is a broken mechanic in my opinion as you have too many tools already to be able to spam something like that.

but I thought CP was just supposed to increase what we already have, Not Become it's Own Crutch. So you are Stating that we are REQUIRED to dump points into areas of the tree just to Reach a Stam cost for a Skill???? that we Literally Cannot Cast skills at a certain point?

Champion points ARE WHAT YOU ARE, not INCREASE IT. It's horizontal progression, not vertical. The VR system + champion was like that, but not any more.

Your champion point allocation is quite effectively, you.

Nonsense, it's still vertical. When they increase the CP Cap it will be the same as VR17, you will gain a level increase with the necessity to get new gear, this is in my opinion, worse than a level increase once a year, we will now have one ever few months where we have to get back on the Gear Grind.

OP if you are a magica build expect to be keeping your Stam for dodge and break free. If you don't want to stack more Stam don't use Stam abilities. With my stamblade I can do max 4 cloaks so I use it when I have too.

Refuse2GrowUp · June 2016

It's funny. Patch notes say skills should cost about the same as they were pre DB. Yet during PTS players were reporting the avg increase of skill cost was about 20%, and some skills cost as much as 40% more (not my math, just regurgitating others info). Not sure what the reason is for the steep skill cost increase, and why say specifically in patch notes that skills should cost about the same as before when this obviously is not the case

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · June 2016

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

It's funny. Patch notes say skills should cost about the same as they were pre DB. Yet during PTS players were reporting the avg increase of skill cost was about 20%, and some skills cost as much as 40% more (not my math, just regurgitating others info). Not sure what the reason is for the steep skill cost increase, and why say specifically in patch notes that skills should cost about the same as before when this obviously is not the case

And this is the crux of the argument for me.

If the developers intend for costs to sky-rocket for your "off-pool" then I wish they'd state this in unequivocal terms. If they stated so in an ESO Live episode, that's fine. But I WOULD have like this information to have been on the web site as well.

When major, meta-shifting changes like this occur, you're better off with full, very loud disclosure up front. I'm an adult. State your intentions clearly and concisely. I may not like it, but I'll accept it, adjust my build to it, and move on. I may even come around to your way of thinking. And what lindrilia and dRude said above have me thinking this change might even be a good thing.

But if you slip it in and leave me to figure it out for myself, I'm going to feel like I've kinda been had.

On the other hand, if this kind of change is not what was intended, then we can all breathe a sigh of relief and wait until it's fixed.

estera · June 2016

Costs in original post were for out-of combat character in PvE zone, no poison or other negative effects applied.

Skill cost is not a road blocker for regular PvE activities - with all 167 "green" CP allocated to magika stars cost of these abilities are about 76% of stamina pool (without race/class/armor passives or glyphs), which is pretty close to what it was before the DB patch.

However the moment I jump to Azurah my ability to cast these these skills is gone (proven fact).
I have no intention to "spam" these skills on magika build, but I would like to be able to cast them no matter what my build is.
From what I can see the cost of these abilities is scaled from "earned" CP while size of resource pools are scaled from "allocated" CP.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, sorry for spam, but "no fast horse on Azurah for magika users" does not sounds well.

visionality · June 2016

Rapid and caltrops are extremely expensive indeed, and if you're a magica user it makes little sense to use them. But the same is true for the magica abilities in the Alliance War tree, e.g. purge. I would LOVE to be able to purge with my stamblade, but I cant cause it's too expensive. So either level everything for everybody or leave it like it is.

Concerning rapid, I think it's too expensive for its worth. After all the nerfs with Thieves Guild, it's basically a quick-ride-ability and emptying your stam pool for that seems unreasonabl even for stamina users.

skavenapsb16_ESO · June 2016

estera wrote: »

While the cost of Rapid Maneuver and Caltrops skills is 8100 stamina, my Khajiit character Stamina pool without CP invested into "green" tree is only 7958.
These skills are cannot be used unless I actually allocate some stamina CP.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, is this an intended mechanic or design oversight?

you could use some stamina cost reduction enchants... but i don't think is worth. Tbh, as a magika toon, you should avoid most stamina skills.

Julianos · June 2016

estera wrote: »

While the cost of Rapid Maneuver and Caltrops skills is 8100 stamina, my Khajiit character Stamina pool without CP invested into "green" tree is only 7958.
These skills are cannot be used unless I actually allocate some stamina CP.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, is this an intended mechanic or design oversight?

yes i experienced this yesterday thats so lame they need to fix it there are people with low or non CP it should be castable without any invesment into stamina

spawn_to_kill · June 2016

The game is sounding more broken than before launch the games fun as a pvper is already wearing thin and each update up to now has killed and drained away the fun a little bit more the game should have stayed the same as before IC when will developers of games learn the old saying of if is not broke dont fix it!!!! instead they ruin the game each patch and more people leave and you never fix the c**p you introduced last time gg zenimax