What about Agronak gro-Malog? The half-orc with an imperial father

Elebeth wrote: »

MrDinnertime wrote: »

What about Agronak gro-Malog? The half-orc with an imperial father

Mentioned few times in this discussion; c'mon it's only one page so far, read everything.

Shh it was a lot to read so I skim read it.

Elebeth wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Barenziah cocked her head to one side quizzically. "They say Dark Elven women are pro-- pro-- something. Prostitutes?" she said, although she was dubious.

"You mean promiscuous. Although some do become prostitutes, I suppose," Katisha said as an afterthought. "Elves are promiscuous when they're young. But you'll outgrow it. Perhaps you're beginning to already," she added hopefully. She liked Barenziah, had grown to be quite fond of her. "You ought to meet some nice Elven boys, though. If you go on keeping company with Khajiits and humans and what have you, you'll find yourself pregnant in next to no time."

Barenziah smiled involuntarily at the thought. "I'd like that. I think. But it would be inconvenient, wouldn't it? Babies are a lot of trouble, and I don't even have my own house yet."

That's a direct quote from http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Real_Barenziah,_v_2

This hints at mer and at least Khajiit being able to have children. Also, the moon cycle really wouldn't be an issue since either the mother is Khajiit or not and since the child is the race of the mother it would still follow the moon cycles and such, nothing would change except maybe the child would have different eyes or less cat like ears. Remember traits are very minor and have little to no real changes on the child.

Also, I want to point out when quoting some of these in game books, make sure you look at copies from before morrowind since they've been changed to be less graphic so they could keep their rating down. For example, Daggerfall in game books of The Real Barenziah is much more detailed in sexual promiscuity than the versions that come after Morrowind.

No, this could hint that she will become pregnant faster than usual and the sentence "Constant pairing with a human has brought you early to fertility" from part 6 confirms this.
And yes, I'm aware of "uncensored" version. The sex scene with a Khajiit at the inn doesn't prove anything except that you can have sex with other species. We are trying to figure out if those two species could have an offspring.
Furthermore, why is it that we have no (or at least haven't found) a single reference of Betmer "hybrids" while we have so many examples of inter-species copulation?

Xundiin wrote: »

Because you called it a weaker argument to what elves see themselves as compared to what the Imperial Scholars see. What that passage was suppose to do was show that men, mer, and beast could mate. Which you didn't take it as that. it looked more like you where arguing towards the ideology of the two view points more than the fact that it said "men, mer, and beast can mate."

One side said that they and they alone are "people" and everyone else is an "animal" without providing single fact (typical Mer propaganda) and the other side countered that by saying that they are all equal because they can interbreed. Second argument has proof in Bretons but nothing past that.
So propaganda was fought with a fact that contained deliberate fallacy to point both the fact and ridicule "racism". That is the most logical explanation I see.

Xundiin wrote: »

There's nothing to debate. The Imperial Library is the recognized official lore collection site not only by fans of TES but Bethesda themselves. They've done interviews with the "head librarian" (can't remember her name) that keeps up with all the lore and such.

Go google and read few things along the lines of "Elder Scrolls and Official Lore/Canon", then come back here and say again that there's nothing to debate.

You keep bringing up "no proof of hybrids" there can't be hybrids. You would have to be able to have half elves and half orcs in lore for that to happen. The child is what ever the mother is except in rare occasions. So where are you going to get a Hybrid from? If a Khajiit married and mated with an orc, you don't get a green cat with tusks.

If you quoted the whole part you can tell that they are talking about inter-species breeding. yes the one paragraph you are trying to use as proof that it's just some anti-atlmer propaganda crap does talk about the different view points, but the second paragraph goes on to explain more in detail on this theory as well as mentioning again that there are reports of Khajiit and mer/men having offspring.

" Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present. It is less clear whether the Argonians and Khajiit are interfertile with both humans and elves. Though there have been many reports throughout the Eras of children from these unions, as well as stories of unions with daedra, there have been no well documented offspring."

This is from http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Notes_on_Racial_Phylogeny

The problem is that the passage I quoted earlier and this on is as close to any hard proof you're going to find in official ESO lore. They left this subject vaguely open with just small hints at it being either or both or none.

As far as googling official lore.... why? I already know it's got more contradictions than the Holy Bible. As far as official collections of lore.... The Imperial Library is the original collection of TES lore started back in Daggerfall I think. So it was around before people started using Wiki. They don't change any thing at all. it's just a collection of all lore that is put out and ok'd by Bethesda themselves into one place. Also, any 5 year old with a wiki account can go in and change any information on it. Hence why English teachers hate when you try and cite Wiki as a source.

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Exactly this.

We see examples of this in the games al the time. I remember in Oblivion meeting a redguard whose father was a breton. This means her mother is a redguard.

Bretons are a peculiar case. It's possible that so-called "half-breeds" like them formed because of multiple generations of cross-breeding with the Direnni High Elves creating a completely new race. It's believed that breton's magical aptitude comes from their elven heritage, so it seems that this theory holds a bit of
water.

Race is a weird thing in ES, especially when it comes to men and mer. Breton are still 100% men even though they have some mer ancestry. Redguards are men even though they come from a completely different place than the imperials and nords. It's more of a spiritual or metaphysical thing.

No one is arguing against that. We all agree that all Mer (Alt, Bos, Dun, Orsi, and I guess, Sinister and Maor) can mix with all Men.

And why do you say that Bretons are 100% men if they are mad out of Man+Mer union?
Sound more like a political thing rather than spiritual.

Well, those pairings werent unheard of in previous games. The other question is, why its more socially acceptable in ESO. As we all know, in previous games racial tensions were much more pronounced.

Xundiin wrote: »

Elebeth wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Barenziah cocked her head to one side quizzically. "They say Dark Elven women are pro-- pro-- something. Prostitutes?" she said, although she was dubious.

"You mean promiscuous. Although some do become prostitutes, I suppose," Katisha said as an afterthought. "Elves are promiscuous when they're young. But you'll outgrow it. Perhaps you're beginning to already," she added hopefully. She liked Barenziah, had grown to be quite fond of her. "You ought to meet some nice Elven boys, though. If you go on keeping company with Khajiits and humans and what have you, you'll find yourself pregnant in next to no time."

Barenziah smiled involuntarily at the thought. "I'd like that. I think. But it would be inconvenient, wouldn't it? Babies are a lot of trouble, and I don't even have my own house yet."

That's a direct quote from http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Real_Barenziah,_v_2

This hints at mer and at least Khajiit being able to have children. Also, the moon cycle really wouldn't be an issue since either the mother is Khajiit or not and since the child is the race of the mother it would still follow the moon cycles and such, nothing would change except maybe the child would have different eyes or less cat like ears. Remember traits are very minor and have little to no real changes on the child.

Also, I want to point out when quoting some of these in game books, make sure you look at copies from before morrowind since they've been changed to be less graphic so they could keep their rating down. For example, Daggerfall in game books of The Real Barenziah is much more detailed in sexual promiscuity than the versions that come after Morrowind.

No, this could hint that she will become pregnant faster than usual and the sentence "Constant pairing with a human has brought you early to fertility" from part 6 confirms this.
And yes, I'm aware of "uncensored" version. The sex scene with a Khajiit at the inn doesn't prove anything except that you can have sex with other species. We are trying to figure out if those two species could have an offspring.
Furthermore, why is it that we have no (or at least haven't found) a single reference of Betmer "hybrids" while we have so many examples of inter-species copulation?

Xundiin wrote: »

Because you called it a weaker argument to what elves see themselves as compared to what the Imperial Scholars see. What that passage was suppose to do was show that men, mer, and beast could mate. Which you didn't take it as that. it looked more like you where arguing towards the ideology of the two view points more than the fact that it said "men, mer, and beast can mate."

One side said that they and they alone are "people" and everyone else is an "animal" without providing single fact (typical Mer propaganda) and the other side countered that by saying that they are all equal because they can interbreed. Second argument has proof in Bretons but nothing past that.
So propaganda was fought with a fact that contained deliberate fallacy to point both the fact and ridicule "racism". That is the most logical explanation I see.

Xundiin wrote: »

There's nothing to debate. The Imperial Library is the recognized official lore collection site not only by fans of TES but Bethesda themselves. They've done interviews with the "head librarian" (can't remember her name) that keeps up with all the lore and such.

Go google and read few things along the lines of "Elder Scrolls and Official Lore/Canon", then come back here and say again that there's nothing to debate.

You keep bringing up "no proof of hybrids" there can't be hybrids. You would have to be able to have half elves and half orcs in lore for that to happen. The child is what ever the mother is except in rare occasions. So where are you going to get a Hybrid from? If a Khajiit married and mated with an orc, you don't get a green cat with tusks.

If you quoted the whole part you can tell that they are talking about inter-species breeding. yes the one paragraph you are trying to use as proof that it's just some anti-atlmer propaganda crap does talk about the different view points, but the second paragraph goes on to explain more in detail on this theory as well as mentioning again that there are reports of Khajiit and mer/men having offspring.

" Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present. It is less clear whether the Argonians and Khajiit are interfertile with both humans and elves. Though there have been many reports throughout the Eras of children from these unions, as well as stories of unions with daedra, there have been no well documented offspring."

This is from http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Notes_on_Racial_Phylogeny

The problem is that the passage I quoted earlier and this on is as close to any hard proof you're going to find in official ESO lore. They left this subject vaguely open with just small hints at it being either or both or none.

As far as googling official lore.... why? I already know it's got more contradictions than the Holy Bible. As far as official collections of lore.... The Imperial Library is the original collection of TES lore started back in Daggerfall I think. So it was around before people started using Wiki. They don't change any thing at all. it's just a collection of all lore that is put out and ok'd by Bethesda themselves into one place. Also, any 5 year old with a wiki account can go in and change any information on it. Hence why English teachers hate when you try and cite Wiki as a source.

It is less clear whether the Argonians and Khajiit are interfertile with both humans and elves. Though there have been many reports throughout the Eras of children from these unions, as well as stories of unions with daedra, there have been no well documented offspring."

You quoted it. Uncertain if Argonians and Khajiit can have an offspring with Man or Mer. And that's what I'm pointing out.

Regarding hybrids, wrong wording on my part. However, we do have a half-orc and half-elf in lore so you argument is invalid.

My main argument is not against inter-species offsprings as a whole, it's against Betmer offsprings.

Elebeth wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Elebeth wrote: »

No one is arguing against that. We all agree that all Mer (Alt, Bos, Dun, Orsi, and I guess, Sinister and Maor) can mix with all Men.

And why do you say that Bretons are 100% men if they are mad out of Man+Mer union?
Sound more like a political thing rather than spiritual.

As said somewhere here, Elves were outbreeded by men, maybe they (and this would be logical) felt 'endangered'.
Where a species becomes a minority, men will try to root that out.

There are Non-TES examples: many role plays have this featured.

In Warhammer, men became the new rulers, where it used to be the Elves.
In The Witcher, both Elves as Dwarves are being reduced to low-life scum by the overpopulating humans.
It would be logical, the elves here feared the same thing.

Sorry, what? What does that have to do with a fact that Man and Mer can procreate?

Ah, i did not go near that, it was a reaction to the post of @Elebeth .

Xundiin wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

So, i will not.
Please enlighten me as to how they are made, biologically.
Since, by all means, THAT is the whole of the game.

/facewall back at you.

again.... /facepalm

Lore buddy.... there is tons of it.... like literally tons.

Out of all the races you can play and are discussed in this thread Argonians are the only species not born of Nirn.... there are from a different dimension which is why they are more than likely not compatible with the other races of Nirn.

In some lore books Khajiit are descendants of Elves..... I'll let that sink in. So yeah... Elves and men can have children and since Khajiit are descendants of elves...... Oh wow!!! that means they can have inter-species children too. Even if you don't agree with those books Khajiit are still a humanoid species that is born of Nirn. And have sub -species that look identical to Bosmer..... I'll let that sink if as well.


So yeah.. what was it you said... oh /facewall (ROFLMAO) back at ya.

I was specifically pointing out Argonians, should you have missed that.
Where they come from, is not the question/answer, fact is that WHATEVER they are build off/from, it is not compatible with other species.
And even if they are Aliens, I doubt VERY hard, they consist of anything different than DNA/RNA.

Is there lore about this?

Yes

WAAAW, how extraordinary explaining...
If yes, please provide info as to what beings in Tamriel are made? :S

Xundiin wrote: »

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

In lore for TES the child takes the racial traits of the mother. So if a Bosmer and a Khajiit mate, the child will be what ever the mother is.

As for Argonians and x species. I don't think it's possible for them to have children since Argonians lay eggs.

So the child never gains mixed features of both parents? That's interesting ...

Nope, the exceptions to this rule is Bretons and Khajiit (that I know of). Bretons can either be human or have more elf like features. Like a more angular face or pointed ears (not as much as an actual elf but more than a human). This is caused by them having magical blood that is from Aldmer or Alyeids, I can't remember which but it's from elves that slept with Breton slaves iirc. But they are still not half-elves, they are Breton. A lot of people will try and put half-something is lore and they don't really exist.

The other exception to this rule is Khajiit. There are so many sub-species of the Khajiit I can't even remember them all, but they extend to looking more elf like to being a very large cat (think Senche here). What sub-species they are is dependent on what cycle of the moon they where born on and during what month... I think month not sure I'd have to go double check, but it is based on the cycle of the moon.

Elebeth wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Elebeth wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Barenziah cocked her head to one side quizzically. "They say Dark Elven women are pro-- pro-- something. Prostitutes?" she said, although she was dubious.

"You mean promiscuous. Although some do become prostitutes, I suppose," Katisha said as an afterthought. "Elves are promiscuous when they're young. But you'll outgrow it. Perhaps you're beginning to already," she added hopefully. She liked Barenziah, had grown to be quite fond of her. "You ought to meet some nice Elven boys, though. If you go on keeping company with Khajiits and humans and what have you, you'll find yourself pregnant in next to no time."

Barenziah smiled involuntarily at the thought. "I'd like that. I think. But it would be inconvenient, wouldn't it? Babies are a lot of trouble, and I don't even have my own house yet."

That's a direct quote from http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Real_Barenziah,_v_2

This hints at mer and at least Khajiit being able to have children. Also, the moon cycle really wouldn't be an issue since either the mother is Khajiit or not and since the child is the race of the mother it would still follow the moon cycles and such, nothing would change except maybe the child would have different eyes or less cat like ears. Remember traits are very minor and have little to no real changes on the child.

Also, I want to point out when quoting some of these in game books, make sure you look at copies from before morrowind since they've been changed to be less graphic so they could keep their rating down. For example, Daggerfall in game books of The Real Barenziah is much more detailed in sexual promiscuity than the versions that come after Morrowind.

No, this could hint that she will become pregnant faster than usual and the sentence "Constant pairing with a human has brought you early to fertility" from part 6 confirms this.
And yes, I'm aware of "uncensored" version. The sex scene with a Khajiit at the inn doesn't prove anything except that you can have sex with other species. We are trying to figure out if those two species could have an offspring.
Furthermore, why is it that we have no (or at least haven't found) a single reference of Betmer "hybrids" while we have so many examples of inter-species copulation?

Xundiin wrote: »

Because you called it a weaker argument to what elves see themselves as compared to what the Imperial Scholars see. What that passage was suppose to do was show that men, mer, and beast could mate. Which you didn't take it as that. it looked more like you where arguing towards the ideology of the two view points more than the fact that it said "men, mer, and beast can mate."

One side said that they and they alone are "people" and everyone else is an "animal" without providing single fact (typical Mer propaganda) and the other side countered that by saying that they are all equal because they can interbreed. Second argument has proof in Bretons but nothing past that.
So propaganda was fought with a fact that contained deliberate fallacy to point both the fact and ridicule "racism". That is the most logical explanation I see.

Xundiin wrote: »

There's nothing to debate. The Imperial Library is the recognized official lore collection site not only by fans of TES but Bethesda themselves. They've done interviews with the "head librarian" (can't remember her name) that keeps up with all the lore and such.

Go google and read few things along the lines of "Elder Scrolls and Official Lore/Canon", then come back here and say again that there's nothing to debate.

You keep bringing up "no proof of hybrids" there can't be hybrids. You would have to be able to have half elves and half orcs in lore for that to happen. The child is what ever the mother is except in rare occasions. So where are you going to get a Hybrid from? If a Khajiit married and mated with an orc, you don't get a green cat with tusks.

If you quoted the whole part you can tell that they are talking about inter-species breeding. yes the one paragraph you are trying to use as proof that it's just some anti-atlmer propaganda crap does talk about the different view points, but the second paragraph goes on to explain more in detail on this theory as well as mentioning again that there are reports of Khajiit and mer/men having offspring.

" Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present. It is less clear whether the Argonians and Khajiit are interfertile with both humans and elves. Though there have been many reports throughout the Eras of children from these unions, as well as stories of unions with daedra, there have been no well documented offspring."

This is from http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Notes_on_Racial_Phylogeny

The problem is that the passage I quoted earlier and this on is as close to any hard proof you're going to find in official ESO lore. They left this subject vaguely open with just small hints at it being either or both or none.

As far as googling official lore.... why? I already know it's got more contradictions than the Holy Bible. As far as official collections of lore.... The Imperial Library is the original collection of TES lore started back in Daggerfall I think. So it was around before people started using Wiki. They don't change any thing at all. it's just a collection of all lore that is put out and ok'd by Bethesda themselves into one place. Also, any 5 year old with a wiki account can go in and change any information on it. Hence why English teachers hate when you try and cite Wiki as a source.

It is less clear whether the Argonians and Khajiit are interfertile with both humans and elves. Though there have been many reports throughout the Eras of children from these unions, as well as stories of unions with daedra, there have been no well documented offspring."

You quoted it. Uncertain if Argonians and Khajiit can have an offspring with Man or Mer. And that's what I'm pointing out.

Regarding hybrids, wrong wording on my part. However, we do have a half-orc and half-elf in lore so you argument is invalid.

My main argument is not against inter-species offsprings as a whole, it's against Betmer offsprings.

Where is this half-orc and half-elf when EVERY book that talks about inter-species mating says the same damn thing..... The mother determines the race. So how does this make my argument invalid?

And I love... LOVE.. how you keep ignore that I've not only linked quoted passages from in game books not only once but twice stating that there or reports that mating between Khajiit (possibly Argonians as well) and mer/men have been reported but no official proof. This leads to the possibility, which you keep ignoring and dismissing, that they can have inter-species offspring. Yet you are quick to take something that isn't known for sure as a fact that it can't happen.

Awesome discussion!

My first problem is with the term "race'. It is misused and abused by many experts today and by much of the fantasy genre for decades. Some mean "species" when they use the term race, some mean haplotype, or subspecies. Others might define subspecies as lesser beings. This same confusion is found in the genetic terms: dominant and recessive.

A good working definition of species is the ability to produce viable offspring. Dogs, wolves and coyotes are technically the same species. Horses and donkeys are not because mules cannot reproduce. It's a shame tha Linneus didn't know anything about genetics...

Now we enter a fantasy world where everyone has the ability to use magic. What science we can infer from the lore shows that genetics are very different. Maybe these "mixed" offspring are not a product of sexual intercourse at all but the outcome of some kind of magical cloning process.

I find it interesting that the offspring will take on the qualities of the mother. Maybe this has to do with gestation...

Xundiin wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

So, i will not.
Please enlighten me as to how they are made, biologically.
Since, by all means, THAT is the whole of the game.

/facewall back at you.

again.... /facepalm

Lore buddy.... there is tons of it.... like literally tons.

Out of all the races you can play and are discussed in this thread Argonians are the only species not born of Nirn.... there are from a different dimension which is why they are more than likely not compatible with the other races of Nirn.

In some lore books Khajiit are descendants of Elves..... I'll let that sink in. So yeah... Elves and men can have children and since Khajiit are descendants of elves...... Oh wow!!! that means they can have inter-species children too. Even if you don't agree with those books Khajiit are still a humanoid species that is born of Nirn. And have sub -species that look identical to Bosmer..... I'll let that sink if as well.


So yeah.. what was it you said... oh /facewall (ROFLMAO) back at ya.

I was specifically pointing out Argonians, should you have missed that.
Where they come from, is not the question/answer, fact is that WHATEVER they are build off/from, it is not compatible with other species.
And even if they are Aliens, I doubt VERY hard, they consist of anything different than DNA/RNA.

Is there lore about this?

Xundiin wrote: »

That's official lore from the offical lore collection site. You'd have to dig through every NPC and back grounds and what not to find an example. But I'm fairly certain that there is a Khajiit child that has a human father. In fact I'm sure I've ran across a book or quest NPC random NPC that has mentioned this. As far as Argonians, I'm not buying they can inter-species breed either. But since they are not the only beast race... the statement that beast races and humans/mer can have children still stands.

As far as Elves go, Elves are very anti-mixing of blood. So it's not hard to believe that mixing species with any of the elf races is rare. So why would the statment that Elves see them selves as superior and wouldn't bother tainting the pure blood a reason to explain why mer/men and beast couldn't mate and have children. It's ideology vs biology.

.....

As far as Argonians, I'm not buying they can inter-species breed either

.......

Really?

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

but no official proof

This.
And just this makes the whole interracial offspring situation non-lore.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

but no official proof

This.
And just this makes the whole interracial offspring situation non-lore.

No it doesn't.... It's mentioned time and time again in every.... EVERY TES game.

Elebeth wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

In lore for TES the child takes the racial traits of the mother. So if a Bosmer and a Khajiit mate, the child will be what ever the mother is.

As for Argonians and x species. I don't think it's possible for them to have children since Argonians lay eggs.

So the child never gains mixed features of both parents? That's interesting ...

Nope, the exceptions to this rule is Bretons and Khajiit (that I know of). Bretons can either be human or have more elf like features. Like a more angular face or pointed ears (not as much as an actual elf but more than a human). This is caused by them having magical blood that is from Aldmer or Alyeids, I can't remember which but it's from elves that slept with Breton slaves iirc. But they are still not half-elves, they are Breton. A lot of people will try and put half-something is lore and they don't really exist.

The other exception to this rule is Khajiit. There are so many sub-species of the Khajiit I can't even remember them all, but they extend to looking more elf like to being a very large cat (think Senche here). What sub-species they are is dependent on what cycle of the moon they where born on and during what month... I think month not sure I'd have to go double check, but it is based on the cycle of the moon.

Elebeth wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Elebeth wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Barenziah cocked her head to one side quizzically. "They say Dark Elven women are pro-- pro-- something. Prostitutes?" she said, although she was dubious.

"You mean promiscuous. Although some do become prostitutes, I suppose," Katisha said as an afterthought. "Elves are promiscuous when they're young. But you'll outgrow it. Perhaps you're beginning to already," she added hopefully. She liked Barenziah, had grown to be quite fond of her. "You ought to meet some nice Elven boys, though. If you go on keeping company with Khajiits and humans and what have you, you'll find yourself pregnant in next to no time."

Barenziah smiled involuntarily at the thought. "I'd like that. I think. But it would be inconvenient, wouldn't it? Babies are a lot of trouble, and I don't even have my own house yet."

That's a direct quote from http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Real_Barenziah,_v_2

This hints at mer and at least Khajiit being able to have children. Also, the moon cycle really wouldn't be an issue since either the mother is Khajiit or not and since the child is the race of the mother it would still follow the moon cycles and such, nothing would change except maybe the child would have different eyes or less cat like ears. Remember traits are very minor and have little to no real changes on the child.

Also, I want to point out when quoting some of these in game books, make sure you look at copies from before morrowind since they've been changed to be less graphic so they could keep their rating down. For example, Daggerfall in game books of The Real Barenziah is much more detailed in sexual promiscuity than the versions that come after Morrowind.

No, this could hint that she will become pregnant faster than usual and the sentence "Constant pairing with a human has brought you early to fertility" from part 6 confirms this.
And yes, I'm aware of "uncensored" version. The sex scene with a Khajiit at the inn doesn't prove anything except that you can have sex with other species. We are trying to figure out if those two species could have an offspring.
Furthermore, why is it that we have no (or at least haven't found) a single reference of Betmer "hybrids" while we have so many examples of inter-species copulation?

Xundiin wrote: »

Because you called it a weaker argument to what elves see themselves as compared to what the Imperial Scholars see. What that passage was suppose to do was show that men, mer, and beast could mate. Which you didn't take it as that. it looked more like you where arguing towards the ideology of the two view points more than the fact that it said "men, mer, and beast can mate."

One side said that they and they alone are "people" and everyone else is an "animal" without providing single fact (typical Mer propaganda) and the other side countered that by saying that they are all equal because they can interbreed. Second argument has proof in Bretons but nothing past that.
So propaganda was fought with a fact that contained deliberate fallacy to point both the fact and ridicule "racism". That is the most logical explanation I see.

Xundiin wrote: »

There's nothing to debate. The Imperial Library is the recognized official lore collection site not only by fans of TES but Bethesda themselves. They've done interviews with the "head librarian" (can't remember her name) that keeps up with all the lore and such.

Go google and read few things along the lines of "Elder Scrolls and Official Lore/Canon", then come back here and say again that there's nothing to debate.

You keep bringing up "no proof of hybrids" there can't be hybrids. You would have to be able to have half elves and half orcs in lore for that to happen. The child is what ever the mother is except in rare occasions. So where are you going to get a Hybrid from? If a Khajiit married and mated with an orc, you don't get a green cat with tusks.

If you quoted the whole part you can tell that they are talking about inter-species breeding. yes the one paragraph you are trying to use as proof that it's just some anti-atlmer propaganda crap does talk about the different view points, but the second paragraph goes on to explain more in detail on this theory as well as mentioning again that there are reports of Khajiit and mer/men having offspring.

" Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present. It is less clear whether the Argonians and Khajiit are interfertile with both humans and elves. Though there have been many reports throughout the Eras of children from these unions, as well as stories of unions with daedra, there have been no well documented offspring."

This is from http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Notes_on_Racial_Phylogeny

The problem is that the passage I quoted earlier and this on is as close to any hard proof you're going to find in official ESO lore. They left this subject vaguely open with just small hints at it being either or both or none.

As far as googling official lore.... why? I already know it's got more contradictions than the Holy Bible. As far as official collections of lore.... The Imperial Library is the original collection of TES lore started back in Daggerfall I think. So it was around before people started using Wiki. They don't change any thing at all. it's just a collection of all lore that is put out and ok'd by Bethesda themselves into one place. Also, any 5 year old with a wiki account can go in and change any information on it. Hence why English teachers hate when you try and cite Wiki as a source.

It is less clear whether the Argonians and Khajiit are interfertile with both humans and elves. Though there have been many reports throughout the Eras of children from these unions, as well as stories of unions with daedra, there have been no well documented offspring."

You quoted it. Uncertain if Argonians and Khajiit can have an offspring with Man or Mer. And that's what I'm pointing out.

Regarding hybrids, wrong wording on my part. However, we do have a half-orc and half-elf in lore so you argument is invalid.

My main argument is not against inter-species offsprings as a whole, it's against Betmer offsprings.

Where is this half-orc and half-elf when EVERY book that talks about inter-species mating says the same damn thing..... The mother determines the race. So how does this make my argument invalid?

And I love... LOVE.. how you keep ignore that I've not only linked quoted passages from in game books not only once but twice stating that there or reports that mating between Khajiit (possibly Argonians as well) and mer/men have been reported but no official proof. This leads to the possibility, which you keep ignoring and dismissing, that they can have inter-species offspring. Yet you are quick to take something that isn't known for sure as a fact that it can't happen.

Agronak gro-Malog is half-orc, not just an offspring of a Man-Orc union that took everything from his mother but an actual half/half. I reckoned he is here as an exception that confirm the rules so that goes in your favor. But he still exists.

Bretons are half elves, literal hybrids created over a long period of interbreeding.

There are reports of mating with Khajiits and Argonians but there are no reports on offspirings with Khajiit and Argonians.
Posters here agreed that Argonians are out of the picture and Khajiit could mate and produce offspirngs with Bosmer.

Bretons are not half elves, they are men.... it's stated in lore books. Men.... not elves, not half elves. men.

So, OK, let's say, I have divine sex with Amaxia, and she bears 200 children of me (She is a goddess, not a clue how firtile THEY are), don't you think every somewhat science based person would be there and write entire phonebooks over this?

Oh come on.

OR!!!
It is SO common, no one thinks of making official reports of it anymore, but then, where are they eh?

Hluill wrote: »

Awesome discussion!

My first problem is with the term "race'. It is misused and abused by many experts today and by much of the fantasy genre for decades. Some mean "species" when they use the term race, some mean haplotype, or subspecies. Others might define subspecies as lesser beings. This same confusion is found in the genetic terms: dominant and recessive.

A good working definition of species is the ability to produce viable offspring. Dogs, wolves and coyotes are technically the same species. Horses and donkeys are not because mules cannot reproduce. It's a shame tha Linneus didn't know anything about genetics...

Now we enter a fantasy world where everyone has the ability to use magic. What science we can infer from the lore shows that genetics are very different. Maybe these "mixed" offspring are not a product of sexual intercourse at all but the outcome of some kind of magical cloning process.

I find it interesting that the offspring will take on the qualities of the mother. Maybe this has to do with gestation...

Well to word my point of view using your "guidelines":

restricted to playable races

I view all Mer (Altmer, Bosmer, Dunmer and Orsimer) and all Men (Nord, Redguard, Cyrod and Breton) as a different races but same species since they can procreate.
I view all Betmer (Khajiit and Argonian) as different races and different species because they can mate but they can't procreate except within the same species.
Exceptions are Bosmer and Khajiit but there was a Divinie Intervention in play making them an exception to the rule.

Xundiin wrote: »

Elebeth wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

In lore for TES the child takes the racial traits of the mother. So if a Bosmer and a Khajiit mate, the child will be what ever the mother is.

As for Argonians and x species. I don't think it's possible for them to have children since Argonians lay eggs.

So the child never gains mixed features of both parents? That's interesting ...

Nope, the exceptions to this rule is Bretons and Khajiit (that I know of). Bretons can either be human or have more elf like features. Like a more angular face or pointed ears (not as much as an actual elf but more than a human). This is caused by them having magical blood that is from Aldmer or Alyeids, I can't remember which but it's from elves that slept with Breton slaves iirc. But they are still not half-elves, they are Breton. A lot of people will try and put half-something is lore and they don't really exist.

The other exception to this rule is Khajiit. There are so many sub-species of the Khajiit I can't even remember them all, but they extend to looking more elf like to being a very large cat (think Senche here). What sub-species they are is dependent on what cycle of the moon they where born on and during what month... I think month not sure I'd have to go double check, but it is based on the cycle of the moon.

Elebeth wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Elebeth wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Barenziah cocked her head to one side quizzically. "They say Dark Elven women are pro-- pro-- something. Prostitutes?" she said, although she was dubious.

"You mean promiscuous. Although some do become prostitutes, I suppose," Katisha said as an afterthought. "Elves are promiscuous when they're young. But you'll outgrow it. Perhaps you're beginning to already," she added hopefully. She liked Barenziah, had grown to be quite fond of her. "You ought to meet some nice Elven boys, though. If you go on keeping company with Khajiits and humans and what have you, you'll find yourself pregnant in next to no time."

Barenziah smiled involuntarily at the thought. "I'd like that. I think. But it would be inconvenient, wouldn't it? Babies are a lot of trouble, and I don't even have my own house yet."

That's a direct quote from http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Real_Barenziah,_v_2

This hints at mer and at least Khajiit being able to have children. Also, the moon cycle really wouldn't be an issue since either the mother is Khajiit or not and since the child is the race of the mother it would still follow the moon cycles and such, nothing would change except maybe the child would have different eyes or less cat like ears. Remember traits are very minor and have little to no real changes on the child.

Also, I want to point out when quoting some of these in game books, make sure you look at copies from before morrowind since they've been changed to be less graphic so they could keep their rating down. For example, Daggerfall in game books of The Real Barenziah is much more detailed in sexual promiscuity than the versions that come after Morrowind.

No, this could hint that she will become pregnant faster than usual and the sentence "Constant pairing with a human has brought you early to fertility" from part 6 confirms this.
And yes, I'm aware of "uncensored" version. The sex scene with a Khajiit at the inn doesn't prove anything except that you can have sex with other species. We are trying to figure out if those two species could have an offspring.
Furthermore, why is it that we have no (or at least haven't found) a single reference of Betmer "hybrids" while we have so many examples of inter-species copulation?

Xundiin wrote: »

Because you called it a weaker argument to what elves see themselves as compared to what the Imperial Scholars see. What that passage was suppose to do was show that men, mer, and beast could mate. Which you didn't take it as that. it looked more like you where arguing towards the ideology of the two view points more than the fact that it said "men, mer, and beast can mate."

One side said that they and they alone are "people" and everyone else is an "animal" without providing single fact (typical Mer propaganda) and the other side countered that by saying that they are all equal because they can interbreed. Second argument has proof in Bretons but nothing past that.
So propaganda was fought with a fact that contained deliberate fallacy to point both the fact and ridicule "racism". That is the most logical explanation I see.

Xundiin wrote: »

There's nothing to debate. The Imperial Library is the recognized official lore collection site not only by fans of TES but Bethesda themselves. They've done interviews with the "head librarian" (can't remember her name) that keeps up with all the lore and such.

Go google and read few things along the lines of "Elder Scrolls and Official Lore/Canon", then come back here and say again that there's nothing to debate.

You keep bringing up "no proof of hybrids" there can't be hybrids. You would have to be able to have half elves and half orcs in lore for that to happen. The child is what ever the mother is except in rare occasions. So where are you going to get a Hybrid from? If a Khajiit married and mated with an orc, you don't get a green cat with tusks.

If you quoted the whole part you can tell that they are talking about inter-species breeding. yes the one paragraph you are trying to use as proof that it's just some anti-atlmer propaganda crap does talk about the different view points, but the second paragraph goes on to explain more in detail on this theory as well as mentioning again that there are reports of Khajiit and mer/men having offspring.

" Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present. It is less clear whether the Argonians and Khajiit are interfertile with both humans and elves. Though there have been many reports throughout the Eras of children from these unions, as well as stories of unions with daedra, there have been no well documented offspring."

This is from http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Notes_on_Racial_Phylogeny

The problem is that the passage I quoted earlier and this on is as close to any hard proof you're going to find in official ESO lore. They left this subject vaguely open with just small hints at it being either or both or none.

As far as googling official lore.... why? I already know it's got more contradictions than the Holy Bible. As far as official collections of lore.... The Imperial Library is the original collection of TES lore started back in Daggerfall I think. So it was around before people started using Wiki. They don't change any thing at all. it's just a collection of all lore that is put out and ok'd by Bethesda themselves into one place. Also, any 5 year old with a wiki account can go in and change any information on it. Hence why English teachers hate when you try and cite Wiki as a source.

It is less clear whether the Argonians and Khajiit are interfertile with both humans and elves. Though there have been many reports throughout the Eras of children from these unions, as well as stories of unions with daedra, there have been no well documented offspring."

You quoted it. Uncertain if Argonians and Khajiit can have an offspring with Man or Mer. And that's what I'm pointing out.

Regarding hybrids, wrong wording on my part. However, we do have a half-orc and half-elf in lore so you argument is invalid.

My main argument is not against inter-species offsprings as a whole, it's against Betmer offsprings.

Where is this half-orc and half-elf when EVERY book that talks about inter-species mating says the same damn thing..... The mother determines the race. So how does this make my argument invalid?

And I love... LOVE.. how you keep ignore that I've not only linked quoted passages from in game books not only once but twice stating that there or reports that mating between Khajiit (possibly Argonians as well) and mer/men have been reported but no official proof. This leads to the possibility, which you keep ignoring and dismissing, that they can have inter-species offspring. Yet you are quick to take something that isn't known for sure as a fact that it can't happen.

Agronak gro-Malog is half-orc, not just an offspring of a Man-Orc union that took everything from his mother but an actual half/half. I reckoned he is here as an exception that confirm the rules so that goes in your favor. But he still exists.

Bretons are half elves, literal hybrids created over a long period of interbreeding.

There are reports of mating with Khajiits and Argonians but there are no reports on offspirings with Khajiit and Argonians.
Posters here agreed that Argonians are out of the picture and Khajiit could mate and produce offspirngs with Bosmer.

Bretons are not half elves, they are men.... it's stated in lore books. Men.... not elves, not half elves. men.

Manmer. Man. Mer.

"Khosey, in his 'Tamrilean Tractates (sic),' transcribes a firsthand account of the "discovery" of the Bretons by a Nordic hunting party. The Bretons, in ten generations of Elven intermingling and slavery, had become scarcely recognizable as humans. Indeed, the hunting party attacked them thinking they were some new strain of Aldmeri, halting their slaughter only when one of the oldest began to wail for his life, a shrieking plea that was spoken in broken Nordic. When word of this reached Windhelm, the Nords reasoned that the "Manmeri" beyond the Reach were, in fact, descended from human slaves taken during the Elven destruction of Saarthal. King Vrage made the first priority of his Empire the liberation of his long-tormented kinsmen in High Rock. His initial onslaught took him as far as the Bjoulsae, but beyond that the First Empire never established a lasting presence; the crafty Elves were too strong in their magic, and many of the Bretons aided the Elves against their would-be liberators. Ironically enough, it took the tyranny of the Alessian Order to finally free High Rock from Elven dominion. Although the Alessians were crushed at the Battle of Glenumbria Moors, this costly victory so weakened Aldmeri power that the Elves could no longer challenge the emerging nobility of Greater Bretony, who seized power throughout most of High Rock within two decades of the Alessian defeat."

PGE I

They became to exist via men-mer procreation. Their strong affiliations to Men to strengthen their rule over High Rock after the fall of Dirreni Hegemony was nothing but politics.

They are men. And they are mer.