Why Health Based Abilities Are Bad (PVP)

Rohamad_Ali · May 2016

I'm lost . The only ability I know about that scales damage off health is blazing shields . Health was never really a pool anything scaled off except the healing you mentioned and that shield . But health is the most important attribute in the game because once you lose it ...poof dead .

I remember before the adjustments , DK Vampires would go from zero to full health over and over almost unkillable .

They have to be careful with health abilities .

Armitas · May 2016

NativeJoe wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Sort of the same situation with health based heals like dragonblood. While both blessing of restoration and dragonblood suffer the same percentage nerf, the mechanics of the skill combined with changes to cyrodiil make DB useless. In the past it was okay to let your health drop to 30% because dragonblood would heal it up and we had soft caps. Now, thanks to radiant destruction spam you are dead at 50%, so you need a heal that can keep you above that, which dragonblood can sadly no longer do. And it's not just RD that has done this, the power creep from every skill, 12k Wrecking blows, 20k heavy attacks all of it make health based heals like dragonblood worthless.

The game has gotten so ridiculous that we no longer even have a purpose to the lower half of our healthbar.

I agree.

Holy power creep Batman.

BlackMadara · May 2016

Armitas wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

InBedWithMySelf wrote: »

@BlackMadara about the last thing you said about dragon's blood. You know how DK is kind of "The Tanky Class"?

if you take one of the most unique thing about them, which is health based abilities and passives, they will lose most of that tanky aspect. Battle roar heal, Dragon's blood and Igneous shield are all health based. Make them Magicka based and dragonknights will lose their tanky aspect almost completely

It needs some flat value instead of just percentage of missing HP. I still believe that db in particular scaling off of magicka wouldn't hurt the tank aspect of dragonknight. All classes of methods of tanking and mitigation. Dragonknight just has some nice utility, like chains, that others don't. There is no true "tank class" however.

It's actually good that DB is based off of health. If it were based off of mag/stam or spell/weapon power it wouldn't be an effective heal in tank mode which would be poor in all of those characteristics. If you made it effective in tank mode based on low stats then it might be too high when your stats are high, such as in dps mode. So being based on health makes it always valuable and always balanced no matter what your set up is...well before Battle Spirit and game changes wrecked everything.

I would like to see the heal put into two parts. The first part will be a flat 33% heal that is immune to battle spirit and always occurs as is, the second part will represent any present healing modifiers like major mending, quick recovery, ritual, etc upon the base heal. The second part will be affected by battle spirit. You will only see it as one total heal but it will have two hidden parts in it.

The only problem is that I don't think ZOS wants to or can make dragonblood a special case for battle spirit. The only skills they seem to want to ignore battle spirit are ones that heal based off damage done so they aren't double nerfed by battle spirit... which in dragonblood's case is actually pretty similar, just opposite. Healing based on damage taken, not damage done. My suggestions are just for battle spirit still being in effect. I just think a flat heal value is needed, maybe something like 10% or 20% max health increased by missing HP? So 20k HP would give a 2k or 4k base heal, cut in half by battle spirit, increasing by up to 300% to 8k or 16k heal st dangerously low HP. So a build with high dmg and normal health (20k) in cyrodil has a strong heal in execute range comparable to, lets say, a breath of life. What do you think?

ToRelax · May 2016

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Soft caps need to stay dead if you want to know get killed in five seconds then stop running builds that kill in five seconds and some defensive powers beyond a miss chance.

You don't have to be a take to use heavy armor a "Brawler/Bruiser" build does damage while in heavy armor. You min/max with light and medium and die cause of more glassly canons and cry for soft caps back.

No putting 160 points to something and getting 80 was sad. They need to make heavy armor, health and health based powers better to bring them up not nerf everything else down.

I am not getting killed in 5 seconds, I almost never die against less than 3 enemies when I am solo, and I burst down most opponents in an instant. I'd still like to win fights by managing my resources correctly. Pre 1.6 I used to have to make strategic decisions even in 1v1 or 1v2 fights, now I basically take every hit with some active defense and never run out of resources.

InBedWithMySelf · May 2016

NativeJoe wrote: »

What "health" based abilities do I have as options?
bone shield is now stamina scaled.

oh my god... that is a lot of gosh darn health

InBedWithMySelf · May 2016

@BlackMadara that thing you suggested with dragon's blood is actually really awesome. i like that idea

BlackMadara · May 2016

InBedWithMySelf wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

What "health" based abilities do I have as options?
bone shield is now stamina scaled.

NativeJoe wrote: »

What "health" based abilities do I have as options?
bone shield is now stamina scaled.

oh my god... that is a lot of gosh darn health

Pretty sure that's a UI glitch due to mundus stones on pts.

Armitas · May 2016

BlackMadara wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

InBedWithMySelf wrote: »

@BlackMadara about the last thing you said about dragon's blood. You know how DK is kind of "The Tanky Class"?

if you take one of the most unique thing about them, which is health based abilities and passives, they will lose most of that tanky aspect. Battle roar heal, Dragon's blood and Igneous shield are all health based. Make them Magicka based and dragonknights will lose their tanky aspect almost completely

It needs some flat value instead of just percentage of missing HP. I still believe that db in particular scaling off of magicka wouldn't hurt the tank aspect of dragonknight. All classes of methods of tanking and mitigation. Dragonknight just has some nice utility, like chains, that others don't. There is no true "tank class" however.

It's actually good that DB is based off of health. If it were based off of mag/stam or spell/weapon power it wouldn't be an effective heal in tank mode which would be poor in all of those characteristics. If you made it effective in tank mode based on low stats then it might be too high when your stats are high, such as in dps mode. So being based on health makes it always valuable and always balanced no matter what your set up is...well before Battle Spirit and game changes wrecked everything.

I would like to see the heal put into two parts. The first part will be a flat 33% heal that is immune to battle spirit and always occurs as is, the second part will represent any present healing modifiers like major mending, quick recovery, ritual, etc upon the base heal. The second part will be affected by battle spirit. You will only see it as one total heal but it will have two hidden parts in it.

The only problem is that I don't think ZOS wants to or can make dragonblood a special case for battle spirit. The only skills they seem to want to ignore battle spirit are ones that heal based off damage done so they aren't double nerfed by battle spirit... which in dragonblood's case is actually pretty similar, just opposite. Healing based on damage taken, not damage done. My suggestions are just for battle spirit still being in effect. I just think a flat heal value is needed, maybe something like 10% or 20% max health increased by missing HP? So 20k HP would give a 2k or 4k base heal, cut in half by battle spirit, increasing by up to 300% to 8k or 16k heal st dangerously low HP. So a build with high dmg and normal health (20k) in cyrodil has a strong heal in execute range comparable to, lets say, a breath of life. What do you think?

I like that better than what I suggested. My suggestion only dealt with battle spirit, but didn't really do anything to handle these new 50% health executes or the increased weapon and spell power. Your suggestion handles both.

InBedWithMySelf · May 2016

@Armitas @BlackMadara we should probably open a new thread, presenting that idea about dragon's blood, maybe it will catch zenimax's attention

Armitas · May 2016

InBedWithMySelf wrote: »

@Armitas @BlackMadara we should probably open a new thread, presenting that idea about dragon's blood, maybe it will catch zenimax's attention

I agree. Were talking about it on the official Dragonknight page here. ZOS should be checking that thread.

Van_0S · May 2016

True OP,
Please ZOS, change the sun shield( Templar skill) to max stamina/magicka.

FatKidHatchets · May 2016

The health abilities are fine. Put more health on your character. Stop living in the world where every drop needs to go into prime stat. Go put on heavy armor and get atleast 30k health,. Glass cannons only break glass cannons. You can also do all speed runs in heavy armor (as in all dps, healer and tank). Its already OP and getting buffed more folks just don't realize it.

Pre Imperial City it was all about max damage cause you needed to kill 12 people as quick as possible. After the buff change heavy armor takes the cake.

Armitas · May 2016

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

The health abilities are fine. Put more health on your character. Stop living in the world where every drop needs to go into prime stat. Go put on heavy armor and get atleast 30k health,. Glass cannons only break glass cannons. You can also do all speed runs in heavy armor (as in all dps, healer and tank). Its already OP and getting buffed more folks just don't realize it.

Pre Imperial City it was all about max damage cause you needed to kill 12 people as quick as possible. After the buff change heavy armor takes the cake.

Putting more health on your character will kill all your damage and sustain just to get the same amount of defense as a magicka based shield that increases parallel with offense. There are no LA/MA glass cannons in PvP, Offense and Defense run parallel in this game for those types. It is only health and armor based things that run perpendicular between offense and defense.

Heavy Armor is not OP. Even 7 gold Heavy Armor pieces will be fully penetrated by nearly every one in Cyrodiil. All heavy armor does is give you a head start on getting above the 30% armor penetration almost everyone has out there.

BlackMadara · May 2016

Armitas wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

InBedWithMySelf wrote: »

@BlackMadara about the last thing you said about dragon's blood. You know how DK is kind of "The Tanky Class"?

if you take one of the most unique thing about them, which is health based abilities and passives, they will lose most of that tanky aspect. Battle roar heal, Dragon's blood and Igneous shield are all health based. Make them Magicka based and dragonknights will lose their tanky aspect almost completely

It needs some flat value instead of just percentage of missing HP. I still believe that db in particular scaling off of magicka wouldn't hurt the tank aspect of dragonknight. All classes of methods of tanking and mitigation. Dragonknight just has some nice utility, like chains, that others don't. There is no true "tank class" however.

It's actually good that DB is based off of health. If it were based off of mag/stam or spell/weapon power it wouldn't be an effective heal in tank mode which would be poor in all of those characteristics. If you made it effective in tank mode based on low stats then it might be too high when your stats are high, such as in dps mode. So being based on health makes it always valuable and always balanced no matter what your set up is...well before Battle Spirit and game changes wrecked everything.

I would like to see the heal put into two parts. The first part will

The only problem is that I don't think ZOS wants to or can make dragonblood a special case for battle spirit. The only skills they seem to want to ignore battle spirit are ones that heal based off damage done so they aren't double nerfed by battle spirit... which in dragonblood's case is actually pretty similar, just opposite. Healing based on damage taken, not damage done. My suggestions are just for battle spirit still being in effect. I just think a flat heal value is needed, maybe something like 10% or 20% max health increased by missing HP? So 20k HP would give a 2k or 4k base heal, cut in half by battle spirit, increasing by up to 300% to 8k or 16k heal st dangerously low HP. So a build with high dmg and normal health (20k) in cyrodil has a strong heal in execute range comparable to, lets say, a breath of life. What do you think?

Junkogen · May 2016

I agree and have made a similar thread in the past, but focused on racial passives. The "health" races without any buff to max stamina or magicka are at a noticeable disadvantage compared to other races, especially the 10% max stat increase ones. In regard to this thread, I absolutely think this needs to at least be taken into consideration and races like Nord and Argonian need to be compensated for their disadvantage. That's what really bugs me. The balance is so out of whack for health but the devs refuse to acknowledge it. Nords and Argonians need an offensive buff given the meta of this game. Right now, if you want to better support your playstyle without rerolling you have hope and pray for a race change option because it seems evident that ZOS isnt doing anymore for the racials.

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2016

I agree. If they're not going to get rid of Magicka-based shields/heals, they certainly need to make Health-scaling effects ignore battle spirit. Health needs love, and my suggestion as Health is the 'tank stat' that scaling health should in turn scale all regeneration effects. In this way a Tank could actually build sustain in, and not need to scale damage. It would be a nice balance.

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2016

Van_0S wrote: »

True OP,
Please ZOS, change the sun shield( Templar skill) to max stamina/magicka.

No. THey need to make health worthwhile.

Junkogen · May 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree. If they're not going to get rid of Magicka-based shields/heals, they certainly need to make Health-scaling effects ignore battle spirit. Health needs love, and my suggestion as Health is the 'tank stat' that scaling health should in turn scale all regeneration effects. In this way a Tank could actually build sustain in, and not need to scale damage. It would be a nice balance.

This is actually a really great idea. If the other max stats increase damage then max health should increase regen. That would definitely make it something people can't ignore. They'd have to balance it against CP, but I like the concept.

@Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert I hope you guys take note.