An alternative to uncrittable shields

leepalmer95 · April 2016

krathos wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

How about we wait and see what they do for Stam builds before destroying the sorcerer class.

Ah yes, this would absolute decimate them. RIP. Did you even read it?

It actually would, which is what you want, isnt it? A sorc without a shield is just a one shot kill.

I mean I guess the only allowed builds in PvP anymore are the unhittable but super high damage Stam DK or Nightblade, or the cheesy one rotation = free AP VD Magiblade.

Get off of sorcs already.

Did you even read the post? Wearing 5pc impen to stay invulnerable to crit dmg wouldn't do anything hardly at all. Changing it to crit dmg reduction instead of crit invulnerable would allow crit based skills and bonuses to have an effect as well like sorc crit surge or briar heart set.

I did read the post, you obviously never read it properly.

It didn't say crit invulnerable.

Impen has always been crit dmg reduction, 250 crit resist from impen gives 3.7% crit dmg reduction.

The 1000 crit resist the OP suggested would give 13.2% crit dmg reduction when using a shield, combined with the cp reduction and 7x impen it would give around 50% reduction which is what the base crit dmg is, however this isn't including the extra crit dmg from races/cp and classes so while it would reduce it's dmg by quite a bit even so as long as someone puts a few points into crit dmg then anyone criting a shield would do more dmg than if they didn't.

Solariken · April 2016

I love your idea OP! I haven't read through the comments yet to look for counter arguments yet, but I think your suggestion is a winner. Even if the shield grants 90% impen crit immunity, it's a good change because it makes crit builds somewhat viable and doesn't screw over certain skill and item set procs.

+1

mrdankles · April 2016

I think just making shields crit able would help.

krathos · April 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

How about we wait and see what they do for Stam builds before destroying the sorcerer class.

Ah yes, this would absolute decimate them. RIP. Did you even read it?

It actually would, which is what you want, isnt it? A sorc without a shield is just a one shot kill.

I mean I guess the only allowed builds in PvP anymore are the unhittable but super high damage Stam DK or Nightblade, or the cheesy one rotation = free AP VD Magiblade.

Get off of sorcs already.

Did you even read the post? Wearing 5pc impen to stay invulnerable to crit dmg wouldn't do anything hardly at all. Changing it to crit dmg reduction instead of crit invulnerable would allow crit based skills and bonuses to have an effect as well like sorc crit surge or briar heart set.

I did read the post, you obviously never read it properly.

It didn't say crit invulnerable.

Impen has always been crit dmg reduction, 250 crit resist from impen gives 3.7% crit dmg reduction.

The 1000 crit resist the OP suggested would give 13.2% crit dmg reduction when using a shield, combined with the cp reduction and 7x impen it would give around 50% reduction which is what the base crit dmg is, however this isn't including the extra crit dmg from races/cp and classes so while it would reduce it's dmg by quite a bit even so as long as someone puts a few points into crit dmg then anyone criting a shield would do more dmg than if they didn't.

Ummmm first of all I am the OP and I wasn't even replying to you. I was quoting and replying to Rylana. I am well aware that impen provides crit dmg reduction. I even say "invulnerable to crit dmg" in my reply to Rylana about impen. Currently shields are invulnerable to crit, period. Even if we just changed them to be crittable but take no crit damage it would help crit based gear sets and especially stam sorcs who use crit surge. For example, briar heart might be actually somewhat viable.

Besides, the ~1000 was just a randomly tossed out number. It could be higher it could be lower. That's for the devs to decide if such an idea were ever implemented. The primary idea is to require sorcs to gear slightly more defensively, not to take away their opportunity for defense at all.

Emma_Overload · April 2016

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

Interesting idea. It would have a meaningful impact on PvP without touching PvE.

I still think the best solution is to normalize shields. Minor and Major for physical and Magicka based damage. This would eliminate the dreaded shield stacking and keep values equivalent across the board for all shield users.

For that to work, "Major Physical Shield" and "Major Magical Shield" would have to be really large and still be buffable by Bastion. Also, Conjured Ward (and morphs) would need to be the ONLY spell that combines both the Major Magical AND Physical Shields. Harness Magicka, for example, would only have the Major Magickal Shield. Healing Ward will need to be completely redesigned... maybe it should have Minor Physical and Magicka Shields.

I can't stress enough that these shields are going to have to be quite large. If they're too weak to handle a Stamblade attack or Wrecking Blow spam, then Sorcerers are finished.

Astanphaeus · April 2016

There doesn't need to be an alternative to uncrittable shields. Shields have no spell or physical resistance. As someone who has never PvPed with a sorc, only against them, this seems like an L2P issue to me.

krathos · April 2016

Astanphaeus wrote: »

There doesn't need to be an alternative to uncrittable shields. Shields have no spell or physical resistance. As someone who has never PvPed with a sorc, only against them, this seems like an L2P issue to me.

I don't personally have a problem with sorcs. Not everything is just a L2P issue so stop being condescending. The suggestion is mainly so crit based sets and skills can be viable. You can make shields crittable while still making them take no extra crit damage so things like crit surge can proc.

13oot5straps · April 2016

I'd be fine having them not be able to be critically hit if it was changed to have the shield strength based on not max Magick every cast, but rather current Magicka at time of cast.

Astanphaeus · April 2016

krathos wrote: »

Astanphaeus wrote: »

There doesn't need to be an alternative to uncrittable shields. Shields have no spell or physical resistance. As someone who has never PvPed with a sorc, only against them, this seems like an L2P issue to me.

I don't personally have a problem with sorcs. Not everything is just a L2P issue so stop being condescending. The suggestion is mainly so crit based sets and skills can be viable. You can make shields crittable while still making them take no extra crit damage so things like crit surge can proc.

Just because you have to play differently than you normally do against certain people doesn't mean a set or skill isn't viable. Sorcs get most of their damage from projectiles, but dragon wings completely negate that. That doesn't mean that sorcs aren't viable. So no, you are still wrong, and with the person who is talking, it definitely is an L2P issue.

krathos · April 2016

krathos wrote: »

Astanphaeus wrote: »

There doesn't need to be an alternative to uncrittable shields. Shields have no spell or physical resistance. As someone who has never PvPed with a sorc, only against them, this seems like an L2P issue to me.

I don't personally have a problem with sorcs. Not everything is just a L2P issue so stop being condescending. The suggestion is mainly so crit based sets and skills can be viable.

Astanphaeus wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

Astanphaeus wrote: »

There doesn't need to be an alternative to uncrittable shields. Shields have no spell or physical resistance. As someone who has never PvPed with a sorc, only against them, this seems like an L2P issue to me.

I don't personally have a problem with sorcs. Not everything is just a L2P issue so stop being condescending. The suggestion is mainly so crit based sets and skills can be viable. You can make shields crittable while still making them take no extra crit damage so things like crit surge can proc.

Just because you have to play differently than you normally do against certain people doesn't mean a set or skill isn't viable. Sorcs get most of their damage from projectiles, but dragon wings completely negate that. That doesn't mean that sorcs aren't viable. So no, you are still wrong, and with the person who is talking, it definitely is an L2P issue.

Except this is just a forum for ideas. I'm not complaining about sorcs and the thread isn't even about sorcs. You're just being condescending for no reason. You can disagree with something without insulting.

IcyDeadPeople · April 2016

Would be nice if either all shields scaled off max magicka, or all shields scaled off max health.

Minalan · April 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I don't really understand your suggestion fully. Nerfing shields to punish shield stackers also punishes anyone just using one shield.

Yeah except this change wouldn't at all do that (see my third quote response).

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Fwiw I already run 5x impen and 2x reinforced with 5 light/2 heavy in pvp, and put cp into resistant, because it makes it easier to survive with just one 10.3k ward. How would your suggestion affect me? Would it just make it even harder to survive with one ward therefore encouraging me to go back to shield stacking?

It wouldn't. You would be over 3.2k impen and thus negate all crit damage. This change would literally have 0 effect on your build or play style.

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Also if your suggestion is to give a ward 1000 impen then surely stacking 3 wards would give you 3000 impen? How does this punish shield stacking?

Edited the OP for clarity. I meant ~1000 impen period. Not per shield. So if you stack 3 shields you get 1000 if you stack 1 shield you get the same 1000.

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Edit: It's worth mentioning that with only 5 light and no infused or divines I still manage to have 1600 magicka regen and 36k magicka with 3k buffed spell damage and a butt ton of cost reduction. I never run out of magicka and do nice damage. It's not that much of a sacrifice is what I'm saying.

It's not intended to be a huge sacrifice. You're just proving my point. Your stats are fine and you do well and you run impen gear. There are people with better overall stats because they choose more offensive traits and enchants who still negate 100% of crit damage because its fairly easy to keep shields up and stacked.

Again, this is a very small "nerf". I don't think shields need to be massively reduced or changed to a major/minor system or made fully crittable or anything like that. This change just means to be fully defensive you need to gear a little more defensive and lose a very small amount of offensive stats.

Ok I think I get what you're saying now. I still don't really understand what the point of crittable shields would be if every sorc runs around with 3k+ impen, which would happen, which is why I pointed out it isn't a huge sacrifice to lose infused/divines. I'm assuming shields would still be stackable in your solution, so what would change?

My suggestion is to remove shield stacking and then there would be no need for shield crits; hardened ward can already be one-shot with base damage.

Because by not being critable you negate a few other class abilities, crit surge for one, the 10% crit dmg from races/classes, the crit chance of sets or races/classes etc...

Certain sets like briarheart are useless is pvp at the moment, but if everyone could be crit then maybe they'd make a return.

Yeah I get why people want shields to be crit but the op's suggestion would still mean sorcs were crit proof with shields, that's what I don't get.

Edit: Additionally if shield stacking was removed but shields remained crit proof I'm suggesting it wouldn't matter; if a 10-12k hardened ward can be one-shot then your follow up shots can still crit. The issue as I see it is that currently sorcs have crit proof wards up constantly, if shield stacking was removed this wouldn't be the case; there would be windows of opportunity for you to crit.

10-12k hardened wards do not get 1 shot.

Saying a 10k hardned gets one shot, most people at least have 10-15% reduce physical/magic dmg as well due to the cp tree.

Dmg in halved in cyrodiill.

If i was to one shot a 10k hardened ward that much mean the tooltip of the skill i was using must be 20k...

Thats not taking into account the dmg reduction from the cp, i have 15% usually so that would mean my skill tooltip would be 23k... Yeah nothing is hitting that hard.

Yes, they do get one shot. Often. Are we even playing the same *** game? Have you been on the receiving end of an animation cancelled heavy attack/wrecking blow move?

leepalmer95 · April 2016

Minalan wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I don't really understand your suggestion fully. Nerfing shields to punish shield stackers also punishes anyone just using one shield.

Yeah except this change wouldn't at all do that (see my third quote response).

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Fwiw I already run 5x impen and 2x reinforced with 5 light/2 heavy in pvp, and put cp into resistant, because it makes it easier to survive with just one 10.3k ward. How would your suggestion affect me? Would it just make it even harder to survive with one ward therefore encouraging me to go back to shield stacking?

It wouldn't. You would be over 3.2k impen and thus negate all crit damage. This change would literally have 0 effect on your build or play style.

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Also if your suggestion is to give a ward 1000 impen then surely stacking 3 wards would give you 3000 impen? How does this punish shield stacking?

Edited the OP for clarity. I meant ~1000 impen period. Not per shield. So if you stack 3 shields you get 1000 if you stack 1 shield you get the same 1000.

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Edit: It's worth mentioning that with only 5 light and no infused or divines I still manage to have 1600 magicka regen and 36k magicka with 3k buffed spell damage and a butt ton of cost reduction. I never run out of magicka and do nice damage. It's not that much of a sacrifice is what I'm saying.

It's not intended to be a huge sacrifice. You're just proving my point. Your stats are fine and you do well and you run impen gear. There are people with better overall stats because they choose more offensive traits and enchants who still negate 100% of crit damage because its fairly easy to keep shields up and stacked.

Again, this is a very small "nerf". I don't think shields need to be massively reduced or changed to a major/minor system or made fully crittable or anything like that. This change just means to be fully defensive you need to gear a little more defensive and lose a very small amount of offensive stats.

Ok I think I get what you're saying now. I still don't really understand what the point of crittable shields would be if every sorc runs around with 3k+ impen, which would happen, which is why I pointed out it isn't a huge sacrifice to lose infused/divines. I'm assuming shields would still be stackable in your solution, so what would change?

My suggestion is to remove shield stacking and then there would be no need for shield crits; hardened ward can already be one-shot with base damage.

Because by not being critable you negate a few other class abilities, crit surge for one, the 10% crit dmg from races/classes, the crit chance of sets or races/classes etc...

Certain sets like briarheart are useless is pvp at the moment, but if everyone could be crit then maybe they'd make a return.

Yeah I get why people want shields to be crit but the op's suggestion would still mean sorcs were crit proof with shields, that's what I don't get.

Edit: Additionally if shield stacking was removed but shields remained crit proof I'm suggesting it wouldn't matter; if a 10-12k hardened ward can be one-shot then your follow up shots can still crit. The issue as I see it is that currently sorcs have crit proof wards up constantly, if shield stacking was removed this wouldn't be the case; there would be windows of opportunity for you to crit.

10-12k hardened wards do not get 1 shot.

Saying a 10k hardned gets one shot, most people at least have 10-15% reduce physical/magic dmg as well due to the cp tree.

Dmg in halved in cyrodiill.

If i was to one shot a 10k hardened ward that much mean the tooltip of the skill i was using must be 20k...

Thats not taking into account the dmg reduction from the cp, i have 15% usually so that would mean my skill tooltip would be 23k... Yeah nothing is hitting that hard.

Yes, they do get one shot. Often. Are we even playing the same *** game? Have you been on the receiving end of an animation cancelled heavy attack/wrecking blow move?

Pretty sure thats two hits.

Yes i have actually, if you run around with 14k hardened it should be easy enough to survive that, it was easy enough last patch it should be easier this patch with physical cp.

Even the high end people with 37k stamina and 3.5k - 4k wpn dmg only have around a 14k tooltip for wb. With the cp reduction , the very high dmg wb should be hitting for around 6k-7k, leaving another 7k-8k for a heavy attack, it''s easy enough to mitigate.

So what if they manage to get through that if that cancel, your still have 20k hp, throw on some impen or something instead of going full glass cannon under your shields, should be easy enough to cc break and throw on another 14k ward covering nearly 70% of your hp...

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO · May 2016

exactly. Invest in some survivability like the rest of us non-sorcs

Seriously, what the problem with shields becoming critable IF the shield strength is also adjusted accordingly?
More builds become viable, less singling out of sorcs for their special treatment. After all it's not like you can't crit on a physical S&B shield, no? So why should magical ones be extra special (or stamina based 'magical' ones with the DB update)

At the latest then you sorcs would want to have that extra spell crit bonus against those. And let's not forget that as magicka build, light armor wearer you also got 40+% spell penetration. Where is the equivalent to that for stamina? Or medium / heavy armor wearers. Or some useful bonus with nirnhoned weapons (now or after DB update)?

And concerning the shield breaker set? Really? That 2k damage from light attacks is giving you trouble? Compare that wit 12k+ overload light attacks, animation cancelled so you don't even see them coming...
Seriously, shield breaker is a gimmick. Anyone having a problem with that is a crystal-glass cannon or got a L2P issue.

holosoul · May 2016

So much theorycraft...
I don't even understand; if I don't get the hell away from a high weapon damage player, I am dead. It's not like I can cast two shields every DPS combo, ignoring knockdowns and etc that remove at least 1 more GCD each time pushing me closer to the edge if I can even survive for a meager 2 seconds once my shield pops. No sorc is standing there face tanking you, maybe they're LOSing you, or streaking through you, putting mines, whatever, but they are not tanking you. Don't even lie.

P.S. I have 3k crit res
P.P.S I can face tank a level 30 DK