More PvE nerfs to help PvP, which don't help anything in PvP...
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Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭PainfulFAFA wrote: »You do not need shields to pve dps...
Those sorcs pulling out 30-45k dps are doing it with 16k hp.
and shields so they don't get one shot and have to get resed which slows overall DPS of the entire group. and as i have said before, pet builds are trash with the shield duration change in PvE. pets are already hard enough to keep alive in the current live with a 6 second duration on ward keeping your pets alive is going to become your full time job. not worth using.
it affects PvE a lot.The only part of PvE this could possibly affect is vMA. A good Sorcerer doesn't use shields in the rest of PvE except in very rare circumstances.
i don't know where this is coming from. but it is wrong. every good sorc uses ward in PvE. you can't DPS when you get one shot.
Apparently I don't know any good Sorcs in Hodor, CSH, etc.,.
Weird, I would have thought you could avoid one-shots just by playing smart like everyone else...guess I was wrong.Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake2 -
xblackroxe✭✭✭✭✭Honestly, this game would be much less frustrating if they just told us what builds they want is to play, stop pretending like any class/race/build can be viable.... Just tell us templar is a healer, dk is the tank, Sorc is the range magic class, NB is the rogue etc.. people have wasted a lot of time on dps templars, healing NBs, melee sorcs etc... instead of nerfing the builds that play outside the box or too effectively....
LoL
I dont know where this is coming from but sorcs using shields is not an outside the box play for pvp and completely useless for pve (except vMA which is not that hard just RNG). Play what you want you can dps/heal/tank with every class acceptable good. The only time you can´t play what you want is when playing competetive. But thats just how everything works. If you have choices there will always be a best one.Member of HODOR
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer0 -
Kainos98✭✭✭
....interesting.It isn't just sorcs that use shields. I'm a templar and usually a healer in PvE and I use Harness magicka a lot in certain fights. At six seconds it isn't even worth slotting. It seems every change they make just forces healers to spam heals even more in PvE. But since they are nerfing shield durations, how about nerfing the durations of the dodge buffs to sex seconds as well?
....indeed lolEdited by Kainos98 on 26 April 2016 16:571 -
myrrrorb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I'm definitely not seeing the point of changing shields to be all 6 seconds. If you can't even buff them up a few seconds before a fight then what's the point? When everyone is faced with the dilemma of being caught in a defensive loop versus going on the offensive, who is going to choose the former?
So here is a weird thought.
What if I stead of using shields-aplenty as the only defense, a sorc would buy maybe some heslth, use resistance buffs that last longer to boost toughness, use attacks and effects with some healing, maybe equip sets for something other than max crit max dmg max mag and use the brief shield as a one shot or two at most temporary boost to your overall fighting routine?
Hehe. I used a similar argument for the radiant is too OP threads and got tore apart.
But it seems the community is determined to make dodge roll the one defense to rule them all.
I think they need a better solution to shields. Just not sure a 6 second duration is it. Seems a bit short. Maybe 10 to 12 seconds.2 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PainfulFAFA wrote: »You do not need shields to pve dps...
Those sorcs pulling out 30-45k dps are doing it with 16k hp.
and shields so they don't get one shot and have to get resed which slows overall DPS of the entire group. and as i have said before, pet builds are trash with the shield duration change in PvE. pets are already hard enough to keep alive in the current live with a 6 second duration on ward keeping your pets alive is going to become your full time job. not worth using.
it affects PvE a lot.The only part of PvE this could possibly affect is vMA. A good Sorcerer doesn't use shields in the rest of PvE except in very rare circumstances.
i don't know where this is coming from. but it is wrong. every good sorc uses ward in PvE. you can't DPS when you get one shot.
This is just not true. A glass cannon sorc is going to have 16809 health with Kena/julianos/willpower and a touch more if they run TBS or a different monster set. If you are getting one shot, you are standing in stupid. Good sorcs don't run a shield anywhere in PvE except for VMA. Sorcs have the thinnest bars of any class as a DPS. They need to run double toggle, so they basically have 3 skills on each bar. Running a shield in PVE is a DPS loss X2. First, you are sacrificing a spot on your bar for another damage skill. Second, every time you cast a shield you are not casting something else.
Don't get me wrong, you can make most encounters easy mode in PVE with a shield, but if you think the best sorcs are running shields while DPSing, you are wildly mistaken. Also, they arent running overload anymore either, but that's a different thread.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on 26 April 2016 17:063 -
Serenityx✭✭✭PainfulFAFA wrote: »You do not need shields to pve dps...
Those sorcs pulling out 30-45k dps are doing it with 16k hp.
and shields so they don't get one shot and have to get resed which slows overall DPS of the entire group. and as i have said before, pet builds are trash with the shield duration change in PvE. pets are already hard enough to keep alive in the current live with a 6 second duration on ward keeping your pets alive is going to become your full time job. not worth using.
it affects PvE a lot.The only part of PvE this could possibly affect is vMA. A good Sorcerer doesn't use shields in the rest of PvE except in very rare circumstances.
i don't know where this is coming from. but it is wrong. every good sorc uses ward in PvE. you can't DPS when you get one shot.
Every squishy nb is able to DPS without shields. My main is a vr8 nb, pay attention to the aoe circles. They are the little red circles that appear on the ground around your character1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PainfulFAFA wrote: »You do not need shields to pve dps...
Those sorcs pulling out 30-45k dps are doing it with 16k hp.
and shields so they don't get one shot and have to get resed which slows overall DPS of the entire group. and as i have said before, pet builds are trash with the shield duration change in PvE. pets are already hard enough to keep alive in the current live with a 6 second duration on ward keeping your pets alive is going to become your full time job. not worth using.
it affects PvE a lot.The only part of PvE this could possibly affect is vMA. A good Sorcerer doesn't use shields in the rest of PvE except in very rare circumstances.
i don't know where this is coming from. but it is wrong. every good sorc uses ward in PvE. you can't DPS when you get one shot.
Every squishy nb is able to DPS without shields. My main is a vr8 nb, pay attention to the aoe circles. They are the little red circles that appear on the ground around your character
Every class is able to DPS without shields.
If you are DPSing in group content with a shield then one of the following is true.
1. You have terrible support from your tank and healer. IMO, this is about the only acceptable time to slot a shield. You are pugging, it's going bad, and you make a conscious decision to lower your DPS in order to save your group.
2. You dont understand your role very well. As a DPS, your job is to do damage. A tank should be handling the one-shots and a healer should be keeping your health bar topped off.
3. You arent very good and cant avoid basic mechanics. Other than boss strikes (which tank should handle), anything that can one shot you is mechanics driven and completely avoidable.
4. You are lazy. Haha. We are all guilty of this from time to time. Shields make certain encounters easier because you can absorb certain mechanics, but it ALWAYS comes at a DPS loss.
5. You have an unorthodox group composition. For example, you use a shield stacking sorc instead of a tank who kites and DPS's at the same time. Well, I dont care much about that. I am all for anything that strengthens the traditional trinity. I think the idea of shield stacking sorcs 4 DPSing everything is something they want to avoid, which is fine with me.
If I were to slot any utility skill as a sorc in 4-man Content, it would be surge anyways. At least that saves you on a potion bill.1 -
Talyena✭✭✭✭It isn't just sorcs that use shields. I'm a templar and usually a healer in PvE and I use Harness magicka a lot in certain fights. At six seconds it isn't even worth slotting. It seems every change they make just forces healers to spam heals even more in PvE. But since they are nerfing shield durations, how about nerfing the durations of the dodge buffs to sex seconds as well?
.....interesting.
Lol oops0 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm definitely not seeing the point of changing shields to be all 6 seconds. If you can't even buff them up a few seconds before a fight then what's the point? When everyone is faced with the dilemma of being caught in a defensive loop versus going on the offensive, who is going to choose the former?
So here is a weird thought.
What if I stead of using shields-aplenty as the only defense, a sorc would buy maybe some heslth, use resistance buffs that last longer to boost toughness, use attacks and effects with some healing, maybe equip sets for something other than max crit max dmg max mag and use the brief shield as a one shot or two at most temporary boost to your overall fighting routine?
Sure, they could use defenses besides shield, but at that point what's the purpose of the shield? I disagree with OP saying that this won't affect PvP, I think it's a pretty significant Sorc nerf. IDK how it will play out on live, but on paper it looks rather extreme. Definitely not the slight adjustments we're supposed to be seeing.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster3 -
notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
✭PainfulFAFA wrote: »You do not need shields to pve dps...
Those sorcs pulling out 30-45k dps are doing it with 16k hp.
and shields so they don't get one shot and have to get resed which slows overall DPS of the entire group. and as i have said before, pet builds are trash with the shield duration change in PvE. pets are already hard enough to keep alive in the current live with a 6 second duration on ward keeping your pets alive is going to become your full time job. not worth using.
it affects PvE a lot.The only part of PvE this could possibly affect is vMA. A good Sorcerer doesn't use shields in the rest of PvE except in very rare circumstances.
i don't know where this is coming from. but it is wrong. every good sorc uses ward in PvE. you can't DPS when you get one shot.
You mentioned using pets in pve... Im not sure I can take your assessment of pve seriously. Most sorcs have no room for ward on their bars in pve.0 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭PainfulFAFA wrote: »You do not need shields to pve dps...
Those sorcs pulling out 30-45k dps are doing it with 16k hp.
and shields so they don't get one shot and have to get resed which slows overall DPS of the entire group. and as i have said before, pet builds are trash with the shield duration change in PvE. pets are already hard enough to keep alive in the current live with a 6 second duration on ward keeping your pets alive is going to become your full time job. not worth using.
it affects PvE a lot.The only part of PvE this could possibly affect is vMA. A good Sorcerer doesn't use shields in the rest of PvE except in very rare circumstances.
i don't know where this is coming from. but it is wrong. every good sorc uses ward in PvE. you can't DPS when you get one shot.
Apparently I don't know any good Sorcs in Hodor, CSH, etc.,.
Weird, I would have thought you could avoid one-shots just by playing smart like everyone else...guess I was wrong.
i'll admit that this might just be a difference in play styles. since i never run with a tank in PvE content i'm always DPSing, tanking and kiting in group content. sure if you just hide behind a tank it's probably not gonna be a problem. but that's not the way i like to play.Edited by Lucky28 on 26 April 2016 20:45Invictus1 -
Knightpanther✭✭✭✭✭
✭There will always be nerfs to PVE where there is a PVPer element to the game.
The reason being people want classes balanced, no wait they want to be the best class.
Over the years PvPers have always shouted the loudest and got their own way to the detriment of PVE.
Now I am not saying its all their fault, DPS meters ruined MMO's - shock horror, yes they did.
Anyone play Everquest from the start?
Nobody gave a flying foook that Wizards/mages were the best dps because of class roles, these days there are no class roles because everything has to be balanced for solo PVE or mass PVP.
I am also at fault for this, I hated that my Pally was amazing as a raid offtank, but sucked at Solo.
Nerfs/buffs, its a way of life - sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
Be safe.1 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you need to shield stack for 20secs in PvE, either the PvE is wrong or you're PvEing wrong.Edited by WalkingLegacy on 26 April 2016 21:010 -
dagonbeer✭✭✭Hardened ward is great for casual PvE. It has saved my ass a number of times when I've pugged a group without a proper tank (what's taunt?), and only ward on my overload bar prevented a wipe.
6s duration is terrible for sorc Quality of Life, terrible for vMA and terrible for casual play. All to fix nothing in PvP.3 -
dimensional✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hardened ward is great for casual PvE. It has saved my ass a number of times when I've pugged a group without a proper tank (what's taunt?), and only ward on my overload bar prevented a wipe.
6s duration is terrible for sorc Quality of Life, terrible for vMA and terrible for casual play. All to fix nothing in PvP.
Replace "terrible" with "more reasonable" and then you'll be closer to the truth. And it will definitely help balance in PvP.0 -
Knightpanther✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't use my sorcerer shields much due to having an heavy armour build, but to be fair I can see the point from a PVE perspective, 6 seconds is terrible, especially in an 'oh crap' moment.
Its only 4 seconds longer than I would last with a naked Kate Beckinsale.
Be safe0 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭dimensional wrote: »Hardened ward is great for casual PvE. It has saved my ass a number of times when I've pugged a group without a proper tank (what's taunt?), and only ward on my overload bar prevented a wipe.
6s duration is terrible for sorc Quality of Life, terrible for vMA and terrible for casual play. All to fix nothing in PvP.
Replace "terrible" with "more reasonable" and then you'll be closer to the truth. And it will definitely help balance in PvP.
it has no effect on balance. this game is not getting balanced. the meta is just changing. and the sorc is getting scrapped, because every other class now has hardened ward plus does ever other aspect better than the sorc.Edited by Lucky28 on 26 April 2016 21:35Invictus2 -
dimensional✭✭✭✭✭
✭dimensional wrote: »Hardened ward is great for casual PvE. It has saved my ass a number of times when I've pugged a group without a proper tank (what's taunt?), and only ward on my overload bar prevented a wipe.
6s duration is terrible for sorc Quality of Life, terrible for vMA and terrible for casual play. All to fix nothing in PvP.
Replace "terrible" with "more reasonable" and then you'll be closer to the truth. And it will definitely help balance in PvP.
it has no effect on balance. this game is not getting balanced. the meta is just changing.
It does affect balance. A changing meta implies a changing balance, that's exactly what a metagame is, the weighing of balances between options. Nice try though.0 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭dimensional wrote: »dimensional wrote: »Hardened ward is great for casual PvE. It has saved my ass a number of times when I've pugged a group without a proper tank (what's taunt?), and only ward on my overload bar prevented a wipe.
6s duration is terrible for sorc Quality of Life, terrible for vMA and terrible for casual play. All to fix nothing in PvP.
Replace "terrible" with "more reasonable" and then you'll be closer to the truth. And it will definitely help balance in PvP.
it has no effect on balance. this game is not getting balanced. the meta is just changing.
It does affect balance. A changing meta implies a changing balance, that's exactly what a metagame is, the weighing of balances between options. Nice try though.
no that is not balance. that is the meta changing.Invictus3 -
dimensional✭✭✭✭✭
✭dimensional wrote: »dimensional wrote: »Hardened ward is great for casual PvE. It has saved my ass a number of times when I've pugged a group without a proper tank (what's taunt?), and only ward on my overload bar prevented a wipe.
6s duration is terrible for sorc Quality of Life, terrible for vMA and terrible for casual play. All to fix nothing in PvP.
Replace "terrible" with "more reasonable" and then you'll be closer to the truth. And it will definitely help balance in PvP.
it has no effect on balance. this game is not getting balanced. the meta is just changing.
It does affect balance. A changing meta implies a changing balance, that's exactly what a metagame is, the weighing of balances between options. Nice try though.
no that is not balance. that is the meta changing.
That is the meta changing because the game is being balanced. Cause -> effect.0 -
greylox✭✭✭✭✭Yawn same old topic...why would we need a shield that lasted longer than 6 secs if you use it right...and aren't pets getting a buff to physical resist? I'm a pet sorc, the clanfear can hold its own without a shield for a few seconds if you're being tardy.Edited by greylox on 26 April 2016 21:47PC EU
House of the Black Lotus
*{Smokes-in-the-Shade }* (Mag pet Sorc Argonian, prolific thief, willing participant of the dark arts, gardener of exotic...herbs)
{Lugdum The Mechanist} (Hybrid Orc Templar, collector of ancient Ayleid smoking pipes)
{Rantoul} (Dark Elf Magknight, likes an ale between boss fights, has been known to offer daedric princes out in a fist fight)
{Red, The Wanderer} (Bosmer stam sorc and hunter extraordinaire)
{Shoots-For-Stars} (Argonian Mag pet Sorc Ice mage Healer)
*{Jinny the spark }* (Sassy Imperial Stamplar)
{Crezzi the Drifter} (Magblade khajiit burglar, available for questionable operations)
{Grif the Despised} (StamKnight Tank Nord, Eastmarch Master Drinker and spinner of tall yarns)
{Geraldine Stone-Heart} (High Elf MagSorc Ice Tank, Mystic, practitioner of the ancient arts)
*{Anawinn}* (Stam pet Ward Redguard, Mother to a bear and an unruly Hunger,Librarian, field medic and natures fist)
{*}Mains
{ CP 900+ }
Caretaker of Battle Island (Grand Topal), the holiday destination for the discerning warrior
Residing in Stay-Moist Mansion-Shadowfen - The Smoking Den (as of 6th feb 2017)0 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭dimensional wrote: »dimensional wrote: »dimensional wrote: »Hardened ward is great for casual PvE. It has saved my ass a number of times when I've pugged a group without a proper tank (what's taunt?), and only ward on my overload bar prevented a wipe.
6s duration is terrible for sorc Quality of Life, terrible for vMA and terrible for casual play. All to fix nothing in PvP.
Replace "terrible" with "more reasonable" and then you'll be closer to the truth. And it will definitely help balance in PvP.
it has no effect on balance. this game is not getting balanced. the meta is just changing.
It does affect balance. A changing meta implies a changing balance, that's exactly what a metagame is, the weighing of balances between options. Nice try though.
no that is not balance. that is the meta changing.
That is the meta changing because the game is being balanced. Cause -> effect.
think what you want. but i'm seeing the same thing i've been seeing since 1.6 it's not being balance it's just shifting the fotm.Invictus3 -
dimensional✭✭✭✭✭
✭Think what you want, but just because you don't like the direction the balance is going doesn't mean it isn't happening.0 -
Decado✭✭✭✭The fact is technically what he is saying is accurate, this will not change anything in pvp however it will change things in PvE,
I can think of 4 reasons I use hardened ward in PvE
1) malestrom
2) final boss of maw
3) ranged group of manticora
4) doing lamias in sanctum
Yes it's easily possible to DPS all the other content with 17k health if you know what your doing and have a good group,but on those 3 occasions above having the shield last 6 seconds is a game changer, it will change the play style
And tactics,
Now to me and many other good sorcs it's annoying but not an issue, we do what we've always done, we adapt however what about the other 90% of the player base? And if I lose to much DPS because I'm always having to reapply my shield that's what the point in me? A magicka nightblade going into the range group with funnel becomes the better option, sorcs are already in a very tenuous position, they are not really a "needed" class is most raids, we have a few reasons to keep us in raids (like overload bar being great for taunting etc). Does anyone remember the time sorcs were a must have in AA for the negate? (For those people who are not ancient a negate is a Sorc "ultimate")1 -
greylox✭✭✭✭✭Knightpanther wrote: »I don't use my sorcerer shields much due to having an heavy armour build, but to be fair I can see the point from a PVE perspective, 6 seconds is terrible, especially in an 'oh crap' moment.
Its only 4 seconds longer than I would last with a naked Kate Beckinsale.
Be safe
In a real 'oh crap' moment 6 seconds is more than enoughPC EU
House of the Black Lotus
*{Smokes-in-the-Shade }* (Mag pet Sorc Argonian, prolific thief, willing participant of the dark arts, gardener of exotic...herbs)
{Lugdum The Mechanist} (Hybrid Orc Templar, collector of ancient Ayleid smoking pipes)
{Rantoul} (Dark Elf Magknight, likes an ale between boss fights, has been known to offer daedric princes out in a fist fight)
{Red, The Wanderer} (Bosmer stam sorc and hunter extraordinaire)
{Shoots-For-Stars} (Argonian Mag pet Sorc Ice mage Healer)
*{Jinny the spark }* (Sassy Imperial Stamplar)
{Crezzi the Drifter} (Magblade khajiit burglar, available for questionable operations)
{Grif the Despised} (StamKnight Tank Nord, Eastmarch Master Drinker and spinner of tall yarns)
{Geraldine Stone-Heart} (High Elf MagSorc Ice Tank, Mystic, practitioner of the ancient arts)
*{Anawinn}* (Stam pet Ward Redguard, Mother to a bear and an unruly Hunger,Librarian, field medic and natures fist)
{*}Mains
{ CP 900+ }
Caretaker of Battle Island (Grand Topal), the holiday destination for the discerning warrior
Residing in Stay-Moist Mansion-Shadowfen - The Smoking Den (as of 6th feb 2017)0 -
dimensional✭✭✭✭✭
✭As a stam nightblade, I can't always spam cloak and I have no damage shield or any other damage mitigation yet I've never complained. Sorcs still have more defense than me and I still don't give a damn.1 -
magnusthorek✭✭✭✭✭
✭The PvP community is the responsible for this huge sorcerer nerf.
Compare the DPS with an unshielded Nightblade is ridiculous because the vast majority of Nightblades don't use staves, which is the weakest weapon in the game. Magicka Nightblade are constanly healing themselves and stamina Nightblades achieve such high DPS that enemies die much faster than they can get hit and even if they do get hit, they have Rally and Vigor as huge backup.
What Sorcerers have besides shield? Power Surge that heals a fraction of critical attacks only? Meh... Pet healing? Again, a fraction of our maximum health.
35-40k DPS Sorcerer... Do you honestly believe that? And don't even come rubbing Overload again. Who uses Overload in a puny mob to get such false-positive? There is NO dungeon/trial boss against which a Sorcerer can go further than 20k!
You think is that easy play as squishy sorcerer without shields? You think it's just a matter to watch your feet for AoE circles? Can you ensure that those circles will appear 100% of the time? Or they can, "occasionally" (to play nice) not appear like SEVERAL visual issues presented by Maw of the Lorkhaj?
You, PvP'ers were so affraid of an already super-nerfed ability (50% reduction) and you cried so loud because of your own L2P issue (yeah, now it's my turn) that ZO$ listened to you and screwed even more the weakest class in the game.
And take your argument of sorcerer flawless VMA and plant it where the sun doesn't shine
Edited by magnusthorek on 26 April 2016 23:09I am the very model of a scientist Salarian, I've studied species Turian, Asari, and Batarian.
I'm quite good at genetics (as a subset of biology) because I am an expert (which I know is a tautology).
My xenoscience studies range from urban to agrarian, I am the very model of a Scientist Salarian.6
