Battle Spirit and skills scaling off health

Septimus_Magna · March 2016

The Battle Spirit in Cyrodiil was introduced to reduce the values for dmg, shields and heals.
However, there has been made a serious mistake when it comes to skills scaling off health, often making them under-powered.

Like most of you know dmg and heals scale by the following formula:

ability value = ability coef x (max magicka/stamina x 10,45 + max spell/weapon dmg)

This means you can get high ability value if you have high max magicka/stamina and high spell/weapon dmg.
For magicka/stamina builds stacking in both increases dmg, healing and even sustain.

Skills that scale off health dont have the spell/weapon dmg component to get a high value.
These skills only scale off max health or the percentage of missing health.
This means its impossible to get an ability value that is out of proportion for the amount of health of the caster.

The Cyrodiil Battle Spirit makes no exception for skills scaling off max health, these values wont scale up as fast as skills scaling off max magicka/stamina and spell/weapon dmg so should not be reduced by the same percentage.

My proposal is to reduce skills scaling off health by 25% in Cyrodiil, instead of the current 50%.

Turelus · March 2016

I was somewhat wondering why they don't make Battlesprit apply soft-caps rather than trying to balance/juggle all the skills and stats with direct counter numbers. I should post this in the Q&A or something.

ToRelax · March 2016

I don't quite get where you want to go with that formula. Battle Spirit affects the effects of abilities directly, it doesn't make a difference wether you get your damage from max magicka or spell damage.

And to talk about what makes health scaling skills underpowered currently. Firstly, 1.6 reduced the max health multiplier from 1.5 to 1.1, that's a big hit obviously. Then the removal of softcaps allowed to pull more stats out of health into magicka/stamina, as they were more useful stats all along, just couldn't be stacked as high. Finally, the changes to Battle Spirit in the IC update worked against Dragon Blood in particular simply because with multipliers like major mending, the difference to other heals wasn't as large because you'd heal nearly to full health anyway. But Sun Shield and Obsidian Shield were alread worse off (with the exception of Igneous's buff - and both of them would get nerfed like all shields in 2.1 by another 6%).

Septimus_Magna · March 2016

ToRelax wrote: »

I don't quite get where you want to go with that formula. Battle Spirit affects the effects of abilities directly, it doesn't make a difference wether you get your damage from max magicka or spell damage.

My point was that the value of a skill is easier to increase by stacking both magicka and spell dmg than just stacking one resource pool.

A magicka NB in Cyrodiil will often have 40k max magicka and 3k spell dmg for example, these 2 big factors in the ability formula will make the ability value high. On top of that, these values are significantly increased by the CP system, resulting in even bigger values.

For example with the major sorcery/brutality buff you get 20% extra spell/weapon dmg, there are no similar buffs to increase skills scaling off health.

Simply said, you cannot get abilities that scale off health to increase by the same percentage as abilities scaling of resource+dmg.

So why should the Battle Spirit reduce both type of skills by the same percentage?

ToRelax · March 2016

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I don't quite get where you want to go with that formula. Battle Spirit affects the effects of abilities directly, it doesn't make a difference wether you get your damage from max magicka or spell damage.

My point was that the value of a skill is easier to increase by stacking both magicka and spell dmg than just stacking one resource pool.

A magicka NB in Cyrodiil will often have 40k max magicka and 3k spell dmg for example, these 2 big factors in the ability formula will make the ability value high. On top of that, these values are significantly increased by the CP system, resulting in even bigger values.

For example with the major sorcery/brutality buff you get 20% extra spell/weapon dmg, there are no similar buffs to increase skills scaling off health.

Simply said, you cannot get abilities that scale off health to increase by the same percentage as abilities scaling of resource+dmg.

So why should the Battle Spirit reduce both type of skills by the same percentage?

...because it's a percentage that it's being reduced by, not a flat amount. When it is relatively easier to increase the power of a spell damage + max magicka scaling skill than a health scaling one, and that should not be the case, that can simply be balanced out by configurating the coefficients of both skills. The existing problems have in the most part nothing to do with battle spirit, so changing battle spirit should not be the way to go for now.

Edit: That is, concerning health scaling skills. Of course Battle Spirit still should be adjusted rather sooner than later.

Septimus_Magna · March 2016

ToRelax wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I don't quite get where you want to go with that formula. Battle Spirit affects the effects of abilities directly, it doesn't make a difference wether you get your damage from max magicka or spell damage.

My point was that the value of a skill is easier to increase by stacking both magicka and spell dmg than just stacking one resource pool.

A magicka NB in Cyrodiil will often have 40k max magicka and 3k spell dmg for example, these 2 big factors in the ability formula will make the ability value high. On top of that, these values are significantly increased by the CP system, resulting in even bigger values.

For example with the major sorcery/brutality buff you get 20% extra spell/weapon dmg, there are no similar buffs to increase skills scaling off health.

Simply said, you cannot get abilities that scale off health to increase by the same percentage as abilities scaling of resource+dmg.

So why should the Battle Spirit reduce both type of skills by the same percentage?

...because it's a percentage that it's being reduced by, not a flat amount. When it is relatively easier to increase the power of a spell damage + max magicka scaling skill than a health scaling one, and that should not be the case, that can simply be balanced out by configurating the coefficients of both skills. The existing problems have in the most part nothing to do with battle spirit, so changing battle spirit should not be the way to go for now.

Edit: That is, concerning health scaling skills. Of course Battle Spirit still should be adjusted rather sooner than later.

Increasing the ability coef would have the same effect but that would change the strength of the skills in pve as well.

ToRelax · March 2016

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I don't quite get where you want to go with that formula. Battle Spirit affects the effects of abilities directly, it doesn't make a difference wether you get your damage from max magicka or spell damage.

My point was that the value of a skill is easier to increase by stacking both magicka and spell dmg than just stacking one resource pool.

A magicka NB in Cyrodiil will often have 40k max magicka and 3k spell dmg for example, these 2 big factors in the ability formula will make the ability value high. On top of that, these values are significantly increased by the CP system, resulting in even bigger values.

For example with the major sorcery/brutality buff you get 20% extra spell/weapon dmg, there are no similar buffs to increase skills scaling off health.

Simply said, you cannot get abilities that scale off health to increase by the same percentage as abilities scaling of resource+dmg.

So why should the Battle Spirit reduce both type of skills by the same percentage?

...because it's a percentage that it's being reduced by, not a flat amount. When it is relatively easier to increase the power of a spell damage + max magicka scaling skill than a health scaling one, and that should not be the case, that can simply be balanced out by configurating the coefficients of both skills. The existing problems have in the most part nothing to do with battle spirit, so changing battle spirit should not be the way to go for now.

Edit: That is, concerning health scaling skills. Of course Battle Spirit still should be adjusted rather sooner than later.

Increasing the ability coef would have the same effect but that would change the strength of the skills in pve as well.

Wich absolutely is the point of it because aside from Battle Spirit, all things affecting the strength of these skills work in PvE just like they do in PvP.

Septimus_Magna · March 2016

ToRelax wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I don't quite get where you want to go with that formula. Battle Spirit affects the effects of abilities directly, it doesn't make a difference wether you get your damage from max magicka or spell damage.

My point was that the value of a skill is easier to increase by stacking both magicka and spell dmg than just stacking one resource pool.

A magicka NB in Cyrodiil will often have 40k max magicka and 3k spell dmg for example, these 2 big factors in the ability formula will make the ability value high. On top of that, these values are significantly increased by the CP system, resulting in even bigger values.

For example with the major sorcery/brutality buff you get 20% extra spell/weapon dmg, there are no similar buffs to increase skills scaling off health.

Simply said, you cannot get abilities that scale off health to increase by the same percentage as abilities scaling of resource+dmg.

So why should the Battle Spirit reduce both type of skills by the same percentage?

...because it's a percentage that it's being reduced by, not a flat amount. When it is relatively easier to increase the power of a spell damage + max magicka scaling skill than a health scaling one, and that should not be the case, that can simply be balanced out by configurating the coefficients of both skills. The existing problems have in the most part nothing to do with battle spirit, so changing battle spirit should not be the way to go for now.

Edit: That is, concerning health scaling skills. Of course Battle Spirit still should be adjusted rather sooner than later.

Increasing the ability coef would have the same effect but that would change the strength of the skills in pve as well.

Wich absolutely is the point of it because aside from Battle Spirit, all things affecting the strength of these skills work in PvE just like they do in PvP.

So skills like Dragon Blood and Blazing Shield should be completely useless in PVP because skills that scale off max resource+dmg can reach high numbers? This makes absolutely no sense to me.

The reasoning for my post is that skills that are already scaling off the most useless stat pool (cant sprint, dodge, block, CC-break or cast skills with health) are reduced too much by the Battle Spirit when they are directly related to the health pool or the missing health of the caster.

The direct relation to the health pool already makes these skills balanced so there's no need to cut them in half.

ToRelax · March 2016

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I don't quite get where you want to go with that formula. Battle Spirit affects the effects of abilities directly, it doesn't make a difference wether you get your damage from max magicka or spell damage.

My point was that the value of a skill is easier to increase by stacking both magicka and spell dmg than just stacking one resource pool.

A magicka NB in Cyrodiil will often have 40k max magicka and 3k spell dmg for example, these 2 big factors in the ability formula will make the ability value high. On top of that, these values are significantly increased by the CP system, resulting in even bigger values.

For example with the major sorcery/brutality buff you get 20% extra spell/weapon dmg, there are no similar buffs to increase skills scaling off health.

Simply said, you cannot get abilities that scale off health to increase by the same percentage as abilities scaling of resource+dmg.

So why should the Battle Spirit reduce both type of skills by the same percentage?

...because it's a percentage that it's being reduced by, not a flat amount. When it is relatively easier to increase the power of a spell damage + max magicka scaling skill than a health scaling one, and that should not be the case, that can simply be balanced out by configurating the coefficients of both skills. The existing problems have in the most part nothing to do with battle spirit, so changing battle spirit should not be the way to go for now.

Edit: That is, concerning health scaling skills. Of course Battle Spirit still should be adjusted rather sooner than later.

Increasing the ability coef would have the same effect but that would change the strength of the skills in pve as well.

Wich absolutely is the point of it because aside from Battle Spirit, all things affecting the strength of these skills work in PvE just like they do in PvP.

So skills like Dragon Blood and Blazing Shield should be completely useless in PVP because skills that scale off max resource+dmg can reach high numbers? This makes absolutely no sense to me.

The reasoning for my post is that skills that are already scaling off the most useless stat pool (cant sprint, dodge, block, CC-break or cast skills with health) are reduced too much by the Battle Spirit when they are directly related to the health pool or the missing health of the caster.

How is it even possible to interpret my posts that way? Of course health scaling skills are underpowered, didn't I state already? That doesn't mean that adjusting Battle Spirit will resolve that situation, and I explained why, in detail.