Official Discussion Thread for "Loremaster's Archive: Trail and Tide"

ZOS_JasonLeavey · January 2015

This is the official discussion thread for the web article "Loremaster's Archive: Trail and Tide."

Read this new lore book by Moon Bishop Hunal and see answers to your questions about the Khajiit.

Akiija · January 2015

I find it curious that the Moon Bishop basically straight-up refutes the 1st Pocket Guide by saying that only 17 forms of Khajiit exist. Particularly since the 1st Pocket Guide was written after the events of ESO, and claims over twenty exist. Whether the omission of the Dark Moon has any impact on the morphological cycle or not, it's an interesting reference point and curious stake to plant.

That said, this particular point:

However, the extent to which we catfolk vary in size has been exaggerated in certain Imperial sources.

For the love of gods, can we stop robbing the Khajiit of anything and everything interesting about their morphology because the devs can't be bothered? Seriously now, between the Alfiq being made literal housecats and the senche being turned into reskinned Bengal tigers, this is getting ridiculous.

So, what? The Argonians have their subspecies that receive due diligence, but the Khajiit aren't distinct or weird or unusual in any way? The Khajiit are being boiled down to literal catmen and all of their alternate forms are being simplified and dumbed down for the sake of reusing assets.

This is getting unbelievably frustrating. For some reason, fantastical and unbelievable lore has to be exaggerated in a fantasy role-playing game series. And not just in this instance, but practically every instance where weird and bizarre creatures/morphology could be given a chance to shine, ZOS seems to be riding hard on the "exaggeration" line wherever convenient.

Please, please, please stop this. Stop dumbing down the Khajiit and making them bigger stereotypes than they already are. You've been given practically free reign in defining what the different forms of Khajiit look like here, and you've chosen sloppy, dull, and insanely uninspired options. I'm severely disappointed that you're using in-character sources now to back up your decisions, because frankly, it's insulting at this point.

Flexar · January 2015

Moon Bishop Hunal wrote:

However, the extent to which we catfolk vary in size has been exaggerated in certain Imperial sources.

So, is Zainat-Ri an Imperial construct? This one has seen Zainat-Ri with his own eyes, and there is no way that he would have fitted into the womb of even a Suthay-Raht, which we have also seen, and in abundance (the Suthay-Raht, not their wombs, thank Alkosh). This one thinks that someone has been over-indulging himself on moon sugar.

If this slowpaws had any credibility, he'd understand that all Khajiit form in the womb the same way, and come out of the womb in the same form. Since it is the status of the ja'Kha-jay at the Khajiit's birth, not their conception, that determines their furstock, it would be impossible for a Khajiit to develop into their furstock whilst still in the womb, since there is no certainty as to when they will be born, even if educated guesses can be made. It is only after their birth that they begin to develop into the furstock dictated by the ja'Kha-jay. This is how any furstock can give birth to any other, not how this moon sugar junkie describes it.

Lynx7386 · January 2015

On the last point, khajiiti are all born looking the same (like kittens), whether they're born from an alfiq, suthay, cathay, or senche. It isnt until the first few months of development outside the womb that a khajiit begins to take it's moon-given form. So, being that the transformation takes place post-birth, the size of the parent doesnt mean a thing (other than the obvious fact that, say, a senche-raht or cathay or any of the larger khajiiti subspecies would find it impossible to mate with an alfiq).

Also, while I have no problem with the moon bishop claiming that the description of senche-raht is over exagerrated (being twice the size of an altmer essentially means almost twice the size of a horse in terms of height), they are much larger than senche as they have to be capable of serving as steeds for the humanoid forms of khajiit. This means that a senche-raht needs to be roughly as large as a horse (so, standing at the same height or slightly taller than an altmer) in order to accomodate the rider. Being that there are also cathay-raht which are larger humanoid khajiiti than our player characters, it's sensible to assume that a senche-raht carrying one of those khajiit would be larger than a draft horse, if only by a small amount.

Also, @zos, give me my senche-raht mount already -_- And polearms, too, these are the things my khajiit nightblade needs to complete his image (well, while we're at it, sai sahan's beard would look great on my khajiit...)

ZigoSid · January 2015

I'm cool with the last answer, I never liked this idea and I suspected for some time that it would be changed because it's been awhile that this was not exploited at all in games. But I can understand that some Khajiit fans are pissed.

Darlgon · January 2015

This one proposes that the entire conversation was with a skinstealer who "borrowed" his good Moon Bishop's form but does not even understand this ones language, much less this ones community.

DerAlleinTiger · January 2015

Seriously?! Did they really just retconn Alfiq being housecat-size and Senche-Raht being massive quadripeds? Really?!

All I can say to this, ZOS, is that I reject your reality and substitute my own, as does my RP guild. Just take away anything that makes Khajiit interesting, why don't you.

Akiija above pretty much hit the nail on the head, so I won't go much further. And Flexar has a point as well about Zainat-ri. Also, just to put this out there, I do remember a guildie of mine getting this answer in an AMA of yours:

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2g0x5l/ama_with_the_eso_writing_team/ckel3d2

So, the senche-tigers seen in-game apparently are not representations of Khajiiti Senche or Senche-Raht, and the differences between them are recognized. Still, the answer given in this Loremaster's Archive is... distressing for us long-time Khajiit players, especially roleplayers.

As a side note, I'm glad you at least cleared up that Khajiit do not use skooma for religious purposes and most actually look down on its use. I have no idea where so many got the idea that it's an official and accepted thing in their society, but I already had a conversation on that very topic before.

thejadefalcon · January 2015

DerAlleinTiger wrote: »

I do remember a guildie of mine getting this answer in an AMA of yours:

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2g0x5l/ama_with_the_eso_writing_team/ckel3d2

The out-of-game answer to the question of Khajiiti subspecies is that depicting wide variation among the cat-folk runs smack up against an Elder Scrolls standard, which is the expectation that characters of any race can use all available arms and armor. We can deviate only so far from the humanoid standard before it becomes a problem when donning equipment.

That answer is so damn poor. Nothing in that said "please let us play as Senche" just "will we see them?" I think we all totally understand without question why we can't play as a Senche, but there is zero justification for not including them at all, especially with that answer. "Every race needs to use the same weapons and armour. This is why horses do not exist in the Elder Scrolls, because they can't use humanoid armour." Absolutely ridiculous.

Rosveen · January 2015

Attrebus had known many Khajiit, of course. Some of his guard had been of the catpeople, and they were common enough in the Empire. But he had never seen any quite like this.

What struck his eye first were their mounts—monstrous cats that stood as high as a large horse at the shoulder. Their forelimbs were as thick as columns and half again as long as their rears, giving them an apelike appearance. Their coats were tawny, ribboned with stripes the color of dried blood, and their feral yellow eyes seemed to promise evisceration—and that was only to start with.

Two of the riders seemed hardly less bestial, although they wore shirts that covered their torsos, and cravats around their necks. Where their fur was visible, it was pale yellowishgreen spotted with black. Their faces were altogether more catlike than any Khajiit he'd ever met, and they slouched forward on their mounts.

The third rider was more like what Attrebus was used to, with features that were more manlike, although still unmistakably feline. And the final rider had such fine, delicate features, she might easily have been of merish blood, had her face not been splotched with irregular black rings.

(...)

“So the mount—that really is her brother? They had the same parents?”
“Yes. But I‟d stay away from that subject, if I were you. It‟s too easy to say the wrong thing.”

Greg Keyes' imagination rivals that of hairless Imperial scholars, it would seem.

The_Great_Maldini · January 2015

Are you guys really trying to argue with ZOS about the lore of the khajiit? You guys are too funny.

DerAlleinTiger · January 2015

The_Great_Maldini wrote: »

Are you guys really trying to argue with ZOS about the lore of the khajiit? You guys are too funny.

As if lore arguments are anything new, even between fans and developers? Not to mention, ZOS hasn't exactly had a great history when it comes to warping previously-accepted ES lore. Truly? I'd trust Bethesda and Greg Keyes over ZOS when it comes to lore any day. Honestly, I think the biggest annoyance is that they try saying the previously-accepted lore is wrong while just kind of shrugging it all off as to just what the real lore is.

I'm just thinking Hunal, as a character, was simply being cryptic and messing with us. Certainly annoying for fans just looking for lore answers, but makes sense in-character.

Darlgon · January 2015

The_Great_Maldini wrote: »

Are you guys really trying to argue with ZOS about the lore of the khajiit? You guys are too funny.

Yes. Because ZoS is NOT Bethesda, only a subsidiary who are independently developing the MMO version, which is NOT Elder Scrolls Six. Elder Scrolls Six was seperately under development by Bethesda by the same team that made Skyrim. Sadly, my google-fu appears unable to locate the articles about that which appeared during Beta.

That said, the author of the article is stating his and ZoS vision of the Kajiiti race. Which is not necessarily always gospel. Which many roll-players will find offensive. Which is why I give them a shape-shifter out.

Rosveen · January 2015

Darlgon wrote: »

The_Great_Maldini wrote: »

Are you guys really trying to argue with ZOS about the lore of the khajiit? You guys are too funny.

Elder Scrolls Six was seperately under development by Bethesda by the same team that made Skyrim. Sadly, my google-fu appears unable to locate the articles about that which appeared during Beta.

You can't find them because there weren't any. Bethesda never confirmed they're working on TES VI, only that they will continue making single player games.

In any case, this article isn't definitive, no matter who wrote it. The Elder Scrolls games are full of conflicting accounts, that's part of what makes their lore so interesting. Here we have just one scholar... It very well may be that no Khajiit stand as tall as two Altmer and that they don't look exactly like wild animals. Maybe there are distinctive differences between Alfiq and housecats, obvious to a Khajiit but not so much to us who have never actually seen an Alfiq?

Smaxx · January 2015

I honestly think that you're reading a bit too much into this answer, since it's really rather thin (IMO).

So they didn't decline nor approve the more or less established lore "any Khajiit form might give birth to any other form of Khajiit".

I think that you have to consider this from a more logical standpoint:

The Moon Lattice might determine different aspects for the newborn Khajiit, which in the end will affect the adult's form (I'd even go as far as say that these are mutations caused by the moons):

The child might walk on two or four legs.
The child might be intelligent enough to speak or not.
The child might be bigger or smaller than their parents.

With these three points you've covered everything, without stretching imagination as far as the Imperials later.

So a Senche might give birth to a Senche-raht, but it might also give birth to an Alfiq. However, a Senche-raht is unlikely to have an Alfiq as a child, since the jump might be too "big". It might still be true in very rare cases, but not necessarily. In a similar way, childs might be more or less intelligent, walk on two or four legs, etc.

The Pocket Guide still sounds more fantastic than this and you could argue that it's wrong about how it depicts the whole thing, but at the same time you're not retconning anything. They just seem to play with the thoughts about making the whole thing far less random or radical as it might have been depicted in previous games (based on the Imperial writings).

The_Great_Maldini · January 2015

Darlgon wrote: »

The_Great_Maldini wrote: »

Are you guys really trying to argue with ZOS about the lore of the khajiit? You guys are too funny.

Yes. Because ZoS is NOT Bethesda, only a subsidiary who are independently developing the MMO version, which is NOT Elder Scrolls Six. Elder Scrolls Six was seperately under development by Bethesda by the same team that made Skyrim. Sadly, my google-fu appears unable to locate the articles about that which appeared during Beta.

That said, the author of the article is stating his and ZoS vision of the Kajiiti race. Which is not necessarily always gospel. Which many roll-players will find offensive. Which is why I give them a shape-shifter out.

Arent they using the same loremaster as the elder scrolls series. You know of whom I am speaking...the Mr. Peanut guy with the monocle.

Akiija · January 2015

The_Great_Maldini wrote: »

Arent they using the same loremaster as the elder scrolls series. You know of whom I am speaking...the Mr. Peanut guy with the monocle.

Lawrence Schick =/= Kurt Kuhlman

Or, more appropriately for this given his work on Ta'agra, Douglas Goodall.

snowsong · January 2015

"M'aiq learned the brothers of Strife are either volcanoes or Elves. If one of each, their mother could have some explaining."

"Can vampires have families? How? Perhaps M'aiq does not wish to know."

"Some say Alduin is Akatosh. Some say M'aiq is a Liar. Don't you believe either of those things."

"M'aiq was one of the Six Companions, but was asked to leave. Another was jealous of his whiskers."

~ M'aiq the Liar =^..^=

Enodoc · January 2015

Akiija wrote: »

Seriously now, between the Alfiq being made literal housecats and the senche being turned into reskinned Bengal tigers, this is getting ridiculous.

Neither of those things have happened. The housecats are housecats and the senche are (mostly) tigers. These are not Alfiq or Senche Khajiit.

Remember:

Alfiq are indistinguishable from housecats, not interchangeable. Therefore it is most likely that there are currently no Alfiq in the game.
Only the Khajiit can tell the difference between the senche-tigers/panthers/lions and the Senche sub-species of Khajiit. Therefore it is most likely that there are currently no Senche in the game... apart from possibly those on Khenarthi's Roost.

Akiija · January 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

Remember:
Alfiq are indistinguishable from housecats, not interchangeable. Therefore it is most likely that there are currently no Alfiq in the game.

Only the Khajiit can tell the difference between the senche-tigers/panthers/lions and the Senche sub-species of Khajiit. Therefore it is most likely that there are currently no Senche in the game... apart from possibly those on Khenarthi's Roost.

Can't speak to the Alfiq, as I don't have a straight-up reference on that. I believe I heard dialogue that referred to some of the housecats as being Khajiit, implying the Alfiq connection.

But Pacrooti *literally* states in a hireling mail that he wonders what would happen if he were born under the full moons as it would make him a "senche-tiger". There is no ambiguity there.

Enodoc · January 2015

Akiija wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Remember:
Alfiq are indistinguishable from housecats, not interchangeable. Therefore it is most likely that there are currently no Alfiq in the game.

Only the Khajiit can tell the difference between the senche-tigers/panthers/lions and the Senche sub-species of Khajiit. Therefore it is most likely that there are currently no Senche in the game... apart from possibly those on Khenarthi's Roost.

Can't speak to the Alfiq, as I don't have a straight-up reference on that. I believe I heard dialogue that referred to some of the housecats as being Khajiit, implying the Alfiq connection.

But Pacrooti *literally* states in a hireling mail that he wonders what would happen if he were born under the full moons as it would make him a "senche-tiger". There is no ambiguity there.

Oh, I hadn't realised Pacrooti said that. My comment was based on this:

ZOS_LawrenceSchick wrote:

The Senche-Tigers: The in-game answer is that the differences between Senche, Senche-raht, and senche-tigers are confusing and hard to understand for everyone but Khajiit. Furthermore, Khajiit seem to sense an intelligence in senche-tigers that other races do not, but since senche-tigers don’t speak, their intelligence is hard to assess. We WILL be adding senche-tiger mounts sometime soon, but they’ll be just slightly larger than their wild counterparts, NOT the gigantic felines described in some of the lore.

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2g0x5l/ama_with_the_eso_writing_team/ckel9mt

psychotrip · November 2015

Akiija wrote: »

I find it curious that the Moon Bishop basically straight-up refutes the 1st Pocket Guide by saying that only 17 forms of Khajiit exist. Particularly since the 1st Pocket Guide was written after the events of ESO, and claims over twenty exist. Whether the omission of the Dark Moon has any impact on the morphological cycle or not, it's an interesting reference point and curious stake to plant.

That said, this particular point:

However, the extent to which we catfolk vary in size has been exaggerated in certain Imperial sources.

For the love of gods, can we stop robbing the Khajiit of anything and everything interesting about their morphology because the devs can't be bothered? Seriously now, between the Alfiq being made literal housecats and the senche being turned into reskinned Bengal tigers, this is getting ridiculous.

So, what? The Argonians have their subspecies that receive due diligence, but the Khajiit aren't distinct or weird or unusual in any way? The Khajiit are being boiled down to literal catmen and all of their alternate forms are being simplified and dumbed down for the sake of reusing assets.

This is getting unbelievably frustrating. For some reason, fantastical and unbelievable lore has to be exaggerated in a fantasy role-playing game series. And not just in this instance, but practically every instance where weird and bizarre creatures/morphology could be given a chance to shine, ZOS seems to be riding hard on the "exaggeration" line wherever convenient.

Please, please, please stop this. Stop dumbing down the Khajiit and making them bigger stereotypes than they already are. You've been given practically free reign in defining what the different forms of Khajiit look like here, and you've chosen sloppy, dull, and insanely uninspired options. I'm severely disappointed that you're using in-character sources now to back up your decisions, because frankly, it's insulting at this point.

Okay okay, I know everyone is going to be pissed that I resurrected this thread, but I was considering returning to ESO and came across this thread.

I just wanted to say that the "normalizing" of the Elder Scrolls lore is the main reason I will not be coming back to this game. I was hoping the game had improved in this regard, but after reading this thread and others it's clear that this isn't the case.

It seems like, at every turn, when Zenimax is given a choice between embracing the fantastic and crazy lore of the world, or choosing the most mundane and "normal" interpretation they can, they choose the latter.

I want to love ESO, I played the beta and thought it was okay. I heard the game made MASSIVE gameplay improvements and I was looking to give a proper try, but the main thing that draws me to this series is the strange unique and wacky lore, and Zenimax seems determined to suck the life out of it at every turn.

Between this and the Rivendell-esque Auridon, I just can't get behind ESO.

I know no one cares about a random person telling people he wont play the game, and I know people will be pissed that I resurrected this thread, but I just wanted to put my thoughts down here and remind people why some are disappointed with this game.