PvP collision with other players, let's talk about it.

rordogg · October 2015

So this was brought up in another forum and it's really got me thinking about what it could add to cyrodil. I've been playing this game since beta on PC and I watched when everyone first started playing PvP how fun it actually was. Everyone was spaced out fighting each other. Their was no giant zergs running through everyone in their path. Then we all started to figure out that it was more beneficial to stack on eachother and run around spamming AOEs. When console first launched I switched to PS4 and I got to see the same fun PvP again till everyone got smart and started stacking into Zerg balls.

Zenimax has tried over and over to deter us from this type of gameplay. They've even said in a lot of instances this is part of what causes lag(everyone sitting in a tight group overlapping all of their AOEs). This isn't the first game to suffer from this type of gameplay either. But how do we actually make it so it's more beneficial to not just Zerg through everything in a tight group? I think player collision would be a great way to start and here's why.

Currently theirs not a whole lot of a reason to play as a tank. Before this latest patch at least you could kill someone as one and somewhat stand a chance. A lot of people will argue being a tank in PvP is all about helping control and cc. But it's pretty hard to control and CC and giant ball of players who can run right over the top of you. This lead to everyone either trying to max out their DPS or be a healer. Why play a tank? You hit like a wet noodle and you can't really effectively keep an enemy on you and not your teammates.

Now let's imagine everyone actually collided with eachother. Your wall is about to be taken down by a massive group of players but you have all of your warriors line up along the entrance ready to hold a shield wall against the onslaught about to go into your keep. Dps and healers in the back. And some siege set up to start downing the enemy as you hold the line at the wall. Obviously knock backs would still allow a couple players through. But theyd then be separated from their group as the line rebuilt, and then burst down by the DPS behind the line. This would be so much more dynamic then a big ball of players all being able to just run through you and into the keep. You'd have a chance to hold and even repel a large force if you coordinated well enough.

But this is just the opinion of a DK tank who is really struggling to stay in love with my character at the moment. What do y'all think? I feel collision could add a lot of dynamics to how points are held and how we fight as a group. It would promote an actual use for heavy armor in PvP which for the most part seems useless right now.

Leovolao · October 2015

do you have any idea what will happen to the servers with this bright idea of yours?

rordogg · October 2015

Leovolao wrote: »

do you have any idea what will happen to the servers with this bright idea of yours?

Other lesser mmos have managed to pull it off I don't see why eso could not. I'm no expert in programming but are you either? How much server stress could it actually add to keep players from all stacking on eachother and spamming AOEs. When console launched their was very little lag at the beginning. It wasn't till everyone started zergballing again that the lag really started to get bad.

Leovolao · October 2015

rordogg wrote: »

Leovolao wrote: »

do you have any idea what will happen to the servers with this bright idea of yours?

Other lesser mmos have managed to pull it off I don't see why eso could not. I'm no expert in programming but are you either? How much server stress could it actually add to keep players from all stacking on eachother and spamming AOEs. When console launched their was very little lag at the beginning. It wasn't till everyone started zergballing again that the lag really started to get bad.

You make it sound like player collision is somehow gonna render aoes useless, it won't. I also happen to supervise and maintain the servers on a multinational reefer factory so I do know something about this. Just to be clear, I'm not saying it can't be done, just that it won't happen on ESO.

Omgwtfbbq321 · October 2015

I don't think server stress would be an issue. I think trolls would be. Image friendlies standing in the way of a door way or merchant. You cant kill them so you would have to wait or go another way.

Winterpsy · October 2015

Collision vs enemy players only. Solves the trolls.

Soulac · October 2015

rordogg wrote: »

Leovolao wrote: »

do you have any idea what will happen to the servers with this bright idea of yours?

Other lesser mmos have managed to pull it off I don't see why eso could not. I'm no expert in programming but are you either? How much server stress could it actually add to keep players from all stacking on eachother and spamming AOEs. When console launched their was very little lag at the beginning. It wasn't till everyone started zergballing again that the lag really started to get bad.

Other MMOs also improve over time, eso doesn't. At least based on PvP.

contact.opiumb16_ESO · October 2015

Indeed collision is needed. 40+ ppl stacking in a small room spamming aoe is a game killer, a server killer and a non sens in strategy. Collisions can give tank a better place, don't allow brainless zergballs because you now have to spread more or accept the fact that you own allies can bodyblock you in a difficult way etc.

Knootewoot · October 2015

I worked great in Warhammer. Saga of Ryzom has it, and it works great and especially in PvP.

Yes, there will be calculations. I really wish there was player collision the way Ryzom has it and directional blocking like Warhammer.

But.... it will never happen. They can't fix animation cancelling because they don't understand the code the game is written in. So all they can do is make new skins for mounts and sell them. Orsinium will be made from existing materials with a level editor so they don't have to code anything.

Greyhame · October 2015

I like the idea of collision and I do think it could cut down on some of the zerg centric play. The idea that you could collide with enemies but not alliance sounds problematic to me though from a coding perspective. I think it would have to be all or nothing.

As for the trolling I think they should allow you to aggro against people in your own alliance. Not friendly fire mind you but selecting a single player and choosing to attack them. Have it be like an AOE that starts a 5 second countdown and give it a 28 meter range. If that person doesn't want to be attacked they can leave that area of effect and nothing happens. If they stick around then your both aggro until one of you drops or a timer expires.

This would provide a nice dueling system which would be very nice to have. It would also cut choke point trolling down.

I would add to this that if 10 people Aggro you in a span of time like 2 minutes then you can no longer outrun the effect. This would deal with scroll jumpers logging on alts in enemy alliances and running back scrolls in god mode.

Also keep Guard zones active to discourage people doing this are spawn points while people are AFK.

Alucardo · October 2015

tfw you try to run through a wrecking blow spammer and he be like "not today buddy"

Knootewoot · October 2015

Greyhame wrote: »

I like the idea of collision and I do think it could cut down on some of the zerg centric play. The idea that you could collide with enemies but not alliance sounds problematic to me though from a coding perspective. I think it would have to be all or nothing.

As for the trolling I think they should allow you to aggro against people in your own alliance. Not friendly fire mind you but selecting a single player and choosing to attack them. Have it be like an AOE that starts a 5 second countdown and give it a 28 meter range. If that person doesn't want to be attacked they can leave that area of effect and nothing happens. If they stick around then your both aggro until one of you drops or a timer expires.

This would provide a nice dueling system which would be very nice to have. It would also cut choke point trolling down.

I would add to this that if 10 people Aggro you in a span of time like 2 minutes then you can no longer outrun the effect. This would deal with scroll jumpers logging on alts in enemy alliances and running back scrolls in god mode.

Also keep Guard zones active to discourage people doing this are spawn points while people are AFK.

Colliding with own alliance should be like in ryzom. You collide. If you push against them for more then 1.5 seconds, you walk through them. That way nobody can troll you. During PvP when running in large groups, the movement itself makes you never stick 1.5 seconds pushing into a friendly. 2-3 people can try it. But a 24 man group cannot achieve this.

rordogg · October 2015

I think their could be a simple solution to trolling how bout yes we all collide with our own teammates but if you have to you can bypass through a teammate with a dodge roll? Something as simple as that could easily solve the problem.

Tankqull · October 2015

rordogg wrote: »

Leovolao wrote: »

do you have any idea what will happen to the servers with this bright idea of yours?

Other lesser mmos have managed to pull it off I don't see why eso could not. I'm no expert in programming but are you either? How much server stress could it actually add to keep players from all stacking on eachother and spamming AOEs. When console launched their was very little lag at the beginning. It wasn't till everyone started zergballing again that the lag really started to get bad.

wich game without instances of less than 40 players has a working collision detection?

Leovolao · October 2015

Knootewoot wrote: »

I worked great in Warhammer. Saga of Ryzom has it, and it works great and especially in PvP.

Yes, there will be calculations. I really wish there was player collision the way Ryzom has it and directional blocking like Warhammer.

But.... it will never happen. They can't fix animation cancelling because they don't understand the code the game is written in. So all they can do is make new skins for mounts and sell them. Orsinium will be made from existing materials with a level editor so they don't have to code anything.

They can't fix animation cancelling because of how the combat system was designed. Huge oversight if you ask me, only because it gives people like you another reason to whine. Animation cancelling isn´t that big of an advantage, never used it much and did perfectly fine in pvp.

Sotha_Sil · October 2015

You know this has been considered during development and they said many times it would not be possible. so /thread.

Bane_of_Fringe · October 2015

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

You know this has been considered during development and they said many times it would not be possible. so /thread.

^
Which is lame because we all know it would be the game we all wanted in the first place.

Olen_Mikko · October 2015

Well this has my knickers in a twist!

Awesome idea, marvelous one would say.

Please read this with cadwell's voice.

But yes, any idea that makes chocolate mantrain runs harder, is welcome. And this is one great idea i think!

contact.opiumb16_ESO · October 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

tfw you try to run through a wrecking blow spammer and he be like "not today buddy"

WB is broken atm so...

darkdruidssb14_ESO · October 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

wich game without instances of less than 40 players has a working collision detection?

Warhammer Online did!!!! Oh wait... it also had stupid server lag that would literally bring down servers completely in large battles.....

They do have player/npc collision in the PvE side and that was added in after launch. Technically they could probably put PvP collision in, but i think the servers wouldn't be able to handle it. I wonder if they could just do player/enemy collision? Like you can walk through friendly players, but not through enemies?

I have to say that it was cool in warhammer to make phalanx walls with tanks and block zerg rushes on stairs... had the healers behind them and ranged/melee taking out people at the wall or people that managed to get past. Made for epic battles, but also killed servers haha.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · November 2015

Winterpsy wrote: »

Collision vs enemy players only. Solves the trolls.

That would stop Zerg balls pushing in a Shield Wall while leaving the AoE Zerg stack inside on crowns body problem the same.

Full Collision for every one at all times ZoS would just have to do their job and Banned players from PvP that troll for a period of time then make it permanent if they keep it up.

Trolling would quickly die out as players are reported then Ghost mode or what ever it's called followed by ZoS and when they comfirm cheating/troll ban the account raise and repeat. Players that report people they just don't like same deal.

Without trolls and with New tactics and choke points making something more people will come back and test drive the new changes having less trolls and getting people back to PvP is a win win. A win win win of that player is returning to the game cause they don't PvE.

rordogg · November 2015

I had a random idea today that maybe could be looked at as a new defense skill if player collision indeed is too much for the servers. How about an alliance defense skill that lays a line down across the area in front of you. No enemy is able to cross this line as long as their are people on your side standing in it and it works kind of like a synergy. Say the more people on your side standing inside this line you receive a special damage mitigation buff or something similar. This way the server isn't trying to calculate individual players all colliding with each other but in essence we can form a shield wall?

Wollust · November 2015

I see a lot of troll potential with player collision.

Stigant · November 2015

Not to be pessimistic about the LAG it wouldprobably cause, this could actually, from a wider perspective, be a good thing.

If there was a player collision in PvP (in case that rolling trought PCs would work same as it does with NPCs)
- there would be no need for AoE caps ... the size of the area itself would determine the maximum pottentional targets
- it would spread the zerg balls (or small balls) ... and get rid of most of/all issues with them (don't really want to get into it)

The question is if the game (considering how brokem the Cyrodiil PvP at the moment is) would be able to handle it